"The Act of Balancing” Sakurai Famitsu Column Translation

[Mo433]

Kid Icarus is basically a whole new franchise, so of course it's going to get a ton of new content. Nintendo promoted that game like hell so of course the series would get a lot of content in Smash. And I highly doubt that Sakurai even has the time to put tons of content into every franchise that is in Smash Bros. The Kirby franchise itself didn't get that much content added to Smash this time around.

 

[ChikoLad]

I agree with Sakurai's position here. Smash 4 is basically suited for all general playstyles whether it be aggressive like (Falcon/Mac) or defensive (Rosalina). It's the only Smash Bros game (other than like 64) to really hit the sweet spot of being in between casual and competitive.

One thing that this game doesn't need is being another Melee. People who complain endlessly about the game not being Melee just need to give it a freaking rest already. Smash Bros doesn't have to be Melee to be successful.

Mac shouldn't be played as an offensive character, he should be played as an opportunist. And as detailed above, Rosalina is not a defensive character inherently, though she can accommodate the playstyle if you prefer to play that way.

 

[Sgt-Sol]

Just accept the game how it is, Adapt , Don't over commit simple as that . IF you don't like how the game is then just don't play it at all if your gonna complain about balances , There's a strength and a weakness to every character , but it all depends on the player not the character. If you don't like it dont play it at all , no one is forcing you to play smash.

 

[TheNumberTrent]

Balancing is hard if you have to make the character's moves unique while referencing their games.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[modshroom128]

"Recently, there was a tournament featuring the top Japanese and American players. In 1v1s, the natural tendency is to use low risk moves to gradually deal damage to the opponent. Smash attacks rarely came out, and the matches were prone to becoming long, drawn out affairs. When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste, but the winner was certainly decided by skill."

even brawl didn't have this problem

 

[WwwWario]

I can understand him, but at the same time, I can't. Also, I personally hate that he tells us to play other games if we want a competitive one.

 

[mobilisq]

3) Not everyone in the competitive scene even is all that smart.

Thank you for saying this

 

[Pacack]

Of course, but I think people are jumping the gun in saying he's "against competition", or "he should leave".

He's trying his very best to please everybody. People may think balancing the game for anything other than tournament standard is wrong, but there are multiple problems with that claim:

1) Tournament standards change and develop all of the time.

2) The competitive scene has many clashing views as is, there is no agreed upon standard for how most characters should be.

3) Not everyone in the competitive scene even is all that smart. Some people are amazing players, but have terrible foresight or don't have a clear view of how a change to a character might effect the bigger picture, so crying for this nerf or that buff isn't always justified even coming from a top player.

4) We may think casual players don't notice changes, but considering everything outside of playing in tournaments is considered "casual", saying he should not pay attention to how characters work in FFAs, Smash Run, Classic Mode, and all other modes in the game, is basically telling him to be a terrible game designer.

The issue that I personally have with his statement is this:

Furthermore, if I went with what is fair according to advanced players, the beginners wouldn’t be able to keep up. For example, Kirby’s Stone attack probably won’t hit a player above intermediate skill level, but if I made it more powerful, it would destroy beginners.

At the end of the day, I’m aiming for intermediately-skilled players to be able to properly enjoy the game. Fundamentally, my goal with Smash has been to create an “enjoyable party game”. If you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gameplay, you might be better suited for other 2D fighting games.

The first statement implies that balance cannot appease the competitive community while still keeping the game fair for beginners.

Bunk.

He is right about his example, but the statement that he gives is meant to be taken as a general design philosophy, and the stone example is simply that - an example.

As a more competitively inclined player, I understand that not every move a character has is supposed to be safe. Some moves, such as the Falcon Punch, are universally understood to be unsafe, but are still loved because they can be used to disrespect an opponent and get in their head. That's part of the charm of the game. Other moves are incredibly situational and require really, really hard reads to actually get off correctly in a 1v1 environment. That's fine. It's part of what makes Smash Bros. so hype.

An issue arises when none of a character's moves are safe in a 1v1 environment, and a character has nothing to work with except for moves that are unsafe or which require hard reads to perform (see: Zelda). He does not seem to acknowledge this at all.


The second point worries me even more. He seems to be saying that we're not playing the game like he meant us to, and because of that, we're not going to find the kind of enjoyment out of it that we're looking for. So we should stop being hardcore fans of his game and go to a competing 2D fighter that's nothing like Smash Bros.

???

???????

Does Sakurai not realize that he invented an entirely new type of fighting game when he created Smash? There isn't an alternative that we can go to. And by telling us to go to a different 2D fighting game when there are no other quality 2D fighters on the Wii U is paramount to saying to go to Playstation or XBox.

I just...really don't get why he said that. At all. It genuinely confuses me.

 

[Gidy]

So Sakurai confirms that Pit and Palutena are low tier?

I can see where he's coming from and I almost completely agree. However, when he says that some attacks are good in free for alls, I can't think of what attacks he's talking about. Palutena's auto reticle? DDD Fsmash? Charizard Flare Blitz? If moves like these were better and had more utility wouldn't it be good for both sides?

And Ganon being faster would certainly help FFAs *looks at PM*

 

[Satan-]

You're literally proving my point. Rather than forming your own well formulated view on the character, you assume Dabuz is the end-all, be-all of Rosalina play just because he placed second in one tournament. Have you ever considered he might have WON that tournament if he didn't play so strictly defensively?

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. The “what if" argument can be applied to anything and doesn't prove anything. As far as we know, Dabuz is the best RosaLuma player. He gets better results than every other Rosa player. Therefore, his style of play can be assumed to be the most optimal until proven otherwise.

Luma's presence doesn't make her defensive. You can play her that way, but you really should be playing Rosalina as a paradigm shifter - switching up Rosalina and Luma's role combination constantly to best match the tide of battle. Rosalina is incredible at offense, defense, combos, mind-games, etc, and so is Luma - Dabuz only puts focus on one of these for both characters, rather than using all of them to the fullest. It works for him right now, but it won't forever, and it certainly isn't the best way to play her. It's like playing Shulk but only ever using the Smash Monado Art.

All of this is great and all, but since when were you the Rosalina aficionadao? Your opinion of how Rosa should be played is just that, an opinion. Unless you have the results to back it up, your statements are all wishful thinking. The thing that makes Rosa so annoying is her defensive play and using Luma as a shield. If you try to play aggressive with her, you're just a giant hitbox running at your opponent to get hit over and over. Your simile to Shulk is not true at all. Playing Rosa defensively is very effective, while playing Shulk with one momado art is not.

 

[ChikoLad]

The issue that I personally have with his statement is this:


The first statement implies that balance cannot appease the competitive community while still keeping the game fair for beginners.

Bunk.

He is right about his example, but the statement that he gives is meant to be taken as a general design philosophy, and the stone example is simply that - an example.

As a more competitively inclined player, I understand that not every move a character has is supposed to be safe. Some moves, such as the Falcon Punch, are universally understood to be unsafe, but are still loved because they can be used to disrespect an opponent and get in their head. That's part of the charm of the game. Other moves are incredibly situational and require really, really hard reads to actually get off correctly in a 1v1 environment. That's fine. It's part of what makes Smash Bros. so hype.

An issue arises when none of a character's moves are safe in a 1v1 environment, and a character has nothing to work with except for moves that are unsafe or which require hard reads to perform (see: Zelda). He does not seem to acknowledge this at all.


The second point worries me even more. He seems to be saying that we're not playing the game like he meant us to, and because of that, we're not going to find the kind of enjoyment out of it that we're looking for. So we should stop being hardcore fans of his game and go to a competing 2D fighter that's nothing like Smash Bros.

???

???????

Does Sakurai not realize that he invented an entirely new type of fighting game when he created Smash? There isn't an alternative that we can go to. And by telling us to go to a different 2D fighting game when there are no other quality 2D fighters on the Wii U is paramount to saying to go to Playstation or XBox.

I just...really don't get why he said that. At all. It genuinely confuses me.

I understand that, but I think you're taking his words to heart too much. His actions speak louder than his words. Sakurai is just a humble guy, he will never admit to something like "I created a new genre of competitive, high-level fighting games", since that is giving him way more credit than he intended to get, if that makes sense.

It's clear that he isn't completely ignorant though, and he's shown that through patches - the outcry from the competitive community is definitely what influenced his decision on certain changes, like the Diddy nerfs, for example.

Also on that last point, Sakurai actually holds no official dedication to Nintendo. He's expressed interest in wanting to develop a game for the PS4, and has praised things like Valve's Steam. He also gave specific mention to Fallout 3 as inspiration on how he would handle Smash DLC.

 

[SoniCraft]

Of course, but I think people are jumping the gun in saying he's "against competition", or "he should leave".

He's trying his very best to please everybody. People may think balancing the game for anything other than tournament standard is wrong, but there are multiple problems with that claim:

1) Tournament standards change and develop all of the time.

2) The competitive scene has many clashing views as is, there is no agreed upon standard for how most characters should be.

3) Not everyone in the competitive scene even is all that smart. Some people are amazing players, but have terrible foresight or don't have a clear view of how a change to a character might effect the bigger picture, so crying for this nerf or that buff isn't always justified even coming from a top player.

4) We may think casual players don't notice changes, but considering everything outside of playing in tournaments is considered "casual", saying he should not pay attention to how characters work in FFAs, Smash Run, Classic Mode, and all other modes in the game, is basically telling him to be a terrible game designer.



You're literally proving my point. Rather than forming your own well formulated view on the character, you assume Dabuz is the end-all, be-all of Rosalina play just because he placed second in one tournament. Have you ever considered he might have WON that tournament if he didn't play so strictly defensively?

Luma's presence doesn't make her defensive. You can play her that way, but you really should be playing Rosalina as a paradigm shifter - switching up Rosalina and Luma's role combination constantly to best match the tide of battle. Rosalina is incredible at offense, defense, combos, mind-games, etc, and so is Luma - Dabuz only puts focus on one of these for both characters, rather than using all of them to the fullest. It works for him right now, but it won't forever, and it certainly isn't the best way to play her. It's like playing Shulk but only ever using the Smash Monado Art.

Also listing one player of a few characters doesn't mean the competitive scene in the West is varied. It's as varied as a store shelf of Amiibos.

Okay, so saying Dabuz plays Rosalina optimally was very hasty for me to say, as nobody plays any of their characters to their fullest potential because nobody really knows any character's full potential yet. However, I still think that looking up to Dabuz as a role model for how to play Rosalina well is not a bad decision. The way I've always gotten better at a competitive game was by looking up how the pros played and taking tips from them. It's not a bad idea.

Now I wanna ask you a couple questions. I'm assuming you play Rosalina the way you describe, which you believe to be optimal(or at least close to it), correct? If so, then could you direct me to any tournaments or matches where you have won playing Rosalina this way? Tournament results establish a lot of credibility in a player. Also, could you explain to me how the Japanese or European Smash 4 scene is more varied than America's? Provide examples? I want definitive proof that Japan or Europe actually use a wider variety of characters than America does.

 

[「 Derk 」]

I would love to speak to whoever is responsible for play testing Zelda. I will gladly give you a list of problems to report to Sakurai himself. She has so many blind spots and issues where players simply fall out of moves or they just fail to connect at all... At least F-smash was semi fixed last patch but this still happens on other moves. Instead of fixing issues lets make phantom take extra time to come back when destroyed. Brilliant balancing! I didn't think it was possible to make this move even worse but somehow you did it.

#FixPhantom2015

I guess if you made Phantom actually hit it would be too difficult for a beginner to avoid it. A storable charge for Phantom Slash would help a ton and would require very little coding to be changed (hint hint). I lost interest in Smash 4 after the last patch because its clear to see we won't be getting the adjustments needed for lower tiered characters anytime soon.

 

[Dustydog96]

Kid Icarus content in Sm4sh probably also has a lot to do with Nintendo trying to promote the recent Kid Icarus games and please the fans. Donkey Kong and Wario are characters that Nintendo really doesn't care about anymore, unfortunately. Yes there was a DK and Wario game for Wii U but they were bland and half hearted.

That's your opinion. DK Tropical freeze was a great game by many. And I think Nintendo COMPLETELY cares about Donkey Kong and ALL of their series. Not sure where you get these ideas.

 

[Dustydog96]

How many DK characters are seriously important all around for Nintendo. Seriously think about while not being a fanboy. How would the other DK characters play differently enough from DK or Diddy to be important. Sakurai looks for interesting characters, that have a unique history, like G & W. You sound like a kid for not realizing that "of-all time" doesn't match today. What was the last best-selling DK game, I can't remember. But, Kid Icarus was so important IT WAS THE 3DS' BEST SELLING GAME OF 2012, AND IN THE TOP TEN OF 2013. You sir are the one biased for thinking that a series that many people have forgotten about, and that isn't in the spotlight deserves a new character. And before you reply stating that DK is successful, look at its sales in Japan before you talk. If anyone else has any input on this please reply, I encourage you.

King K. Rool maybe? Dixie Kong maybe? K. Rool even has the text "Donkey Kong's bowser" set in stone on his trophy in-game. Dixie Kong has been in MULTIPLE big Donkey Kong titles and is very important because of it. Funky Kong is another very relevant character spin-off wise and non-spinoff wise throughout the DK and non-DK Nintendo universe. You obviously just don't know much about the DK series. Not only that YOU are the one sounding like a "fanboy" with your shift key. It's even in your name dude xD

 

[Tater]

Sakurai also said "if you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gamplay, you should try other 2d fighters". The problem with this statement though is that there's no other game like smash bros.

Exactly what I thought when I read that statement.

Overall I agree with Sakurai's choices and truly believe he's doing his best to make a competitive, but still beginner-friendly, game. That being said I don't think it's a good idea to have such a lukewarm approach when it comes to designing a game with competitive play in mind.

 

[Pacack]

I understand that, but I think you're taking his words to heart too much. His actions speak louder than his words. Sakurai is just a humble guy, he will never admit to something like "I created a new genre of competitive, high-level fighting games", since that is giving him way more credit than he intended to get, if that makes sense.

It's clear that he isn't completely ignorant though, and he's shown that through patches - the outcry from the competitive community is definitely what influenced his decision on certain changes, like the Diddy nerfs, for example.

Also on that last point, Sakurai actually holds no official dedication to Nintendo. He's expressed interest in wanting to develop a game for the PS4, and has praised things like Valve's Steam. He also gave specific mention to Fallout 3 as inspiration on how he would handle Smash DLC.

Sakurai, while humble, is also very blunt when it comes to his views. I am merely interpreting his words as he said them, and I think that they're accurate if the four translators are to be believed.

I truly think that Sakurai follows the trend of many of Nintendo's greats in that he has one fatal flaw in his design philosophies. For Miyamoto, it's the lack of storytelling. For Sakamoto, it's believable characterization. For Sakurai, it's competition.

He's very good as misinterpreting what we mean when we say that we want balance. We do not want every character to be the same. We just want Zelda's fair sourspot to do a little more damage (and for her phantom to not have nonexistent hitboxes, apparently) or for Duck Hunt's smashes to kill earlier. We don't want the entire game to be overhauled. That's only what a minority wants.

 

[ephOE]

g r e n i n j a

 

[Dustydog96]

How many DK characters are seriously important all around for Nintendo. Seriously think about while not being a fanboy. How would the other DK characters play differently enough from DK or Diddy to be important. Sakurai looks for interesting characters, that have a unique history, like G & W. You sound like a kid for not realizing that "of-all time" doesn't match today. What was the last best-selling DK game, I can't remember. But, Kid Icarus was so important IT WAS THE 3DS' BEST SELLING GAME OF 2012, AND IN THE TOP TEN OF 2013. You sir are the one biased for thinking that a series that many people have forgotten about, and that isn't in the spotlight deserves a new character. And before you reply stating that DK is successful, look at its sales in Japan before you talk. If anyone else has any input on this please reply, I encourage you.

And to correct you, Donkey Kong Country Returns IN JAPAN sold almost as much as Kid Icarus: Uprising sold WORLDWIDE.

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D

Your post sounds like you got really upset right as you saw someone who was "talking down" the series you love. Which wasn't even being done in the first place. Your argument is invalid and doesn't present facts.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Oh Sakurai, you and your casual biasness.
If you would only open yourself up to the more competitive side of Smash....it could be the best thing ever.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Just as surely, people who play the game this way enjoy it from the bottom of their hearts, and make many friends playing this way. Because the game accommodates a wide variety of playstyles, it’s only natural that it captivates so many people in a variety of ways.

Quite saddening though that with so many playstyles, you can always read them up, learn them, and then fake out the momentum being on your opponent's side by easily relying on the game's rewarding defensive mechanics, unless your character has enough "mechanics" or "tricks" to prevent them.

I mean, when nowadays I have to give players "time to breath" now and then as to prevent not losing momentum or give too much away about my play-style because over the long run (whether defensive or offensive), it's rendered mood by simple counters through long-winded reads and analyzing - such as simple air-dodge to ruin my current chasing. It's always back to neutral and it's pretty tiring due always being afraid of taking a risk to "get the lead".

So best way to win is to just be defensive at best, always finding a shortcut to someone's weaknesses. because if you play in a certain fashion, there's easily a plan to counter them all if properly applied. High-tier characters get away due having more priority, damage input or safer ways to kill or defend that fills those holes to not let them be just rendered pointless to play due "the player's mindset" or usage of attacks. (Also grab combos, quick moves, safe camping and projectiles, low hit-stun spamming, etc).

This easily leds high-tiers being more "favoured" in means of aggressive and defensive fashion. With the rest, they have to just scout for opportunities to use their moves, or just overly learn their own character to bring them out of the rut of the whole "un-safe on block"-moves they're stuck with for most of the time.

There's a reason why we can't employ "many" playstyles in this game despite the first glance, especially across the characters overall.
Give more things for less well performing chars to rely on or gain a lead that is not rendered moot by a simple shielding or even other moves of better characters.

 

[Casval]

"Bland and half-hearted".

Yo but like, it's totally bland and half hearted. Doesn't matter how pretty it looks. DKC was my first videogame ever back in 1995 and it's still one of my top games of all time, as are the sequels. Those were good games.

DKC Tropical Freeze really is bland in comparison, when you're considering actual gameplay. My first problem with it is that the controls are awful and sluggish whereas the SNES games were crisp.

My second problem with it is that the level design is extremely gimmicky yet also extremely boring. It's like they want you to win. The difficulty level is pathetic compared to the games when we were kids. And the secrets are completely obvious in this game too, as if they want you to find them. It's just too easy.

I still play DKC on the SNES on a regular basis, and despite beating it 600 times I still think it's more challenging and better designed than that new Wii U Donkey Kong.

The new game would have been good with crisper controls and if the gameplay was a little less free, but that's not what happened. It's like Brawl whereas the SNES games were Melee. It's pretty and has its own merits, but in the end it's sluggish and unimpressive.

 

[Dustydog96]

Yo but like, it's totally bland and half hearted. Doesn't matter how pretty it looks. DKC was my first videogame ever back in 1995 and it's still one of my top games of all time, as are the sequels. Those were good games.

DKC Tropical Freeze really is bland in comparison, when you're considering actual gameplay. My first problem with it is that the controls are awful and sluggish whereas the SNES games were crisp.

My second problem with it is that the level design is extremely gimmicky yet also extremely boring. It's like they want you to win. The difficulty level is pathetic compared to the games when we were kids. And the secrets are completely obvious in this game too, as if they want you to find them. It's just too easy.

I still play DKC on the SNES on a regular basis, and despite beating it 600 times I still think it's more challenging and better designed than that new Wii U Donkey Kong.

The new game would have been good with crisper controls and if the gameplay was a little less free, but that's not what happened. It's like Brawl whereas the SNES games were Melee. It's pretty and has its own merits, but in the end it's sluggish and unimpressive.

I'm a huge dk fan, there's no hiding it, and also play the original 3 on my snes over and over. But if you compare the in-game design, art, and appeal of Tropical Freeze to the newest Mario game It's a HUGE improvement in terms of design and personality. So even though the original 3 were, and I agree, better games, DKC is still an amazing series that I don't think can be "bland" when talking newer titles. Comparing it to older titles, sure, it's a super bland game, but if you compare it to newer games Tropical freeze is pretty crisp.

 

[ssbMars]

When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste

SakuraiThinksM2KisBoring confirmed.

>Accept it and move on.

so... go back to playing Melee? kappa

 

[redcometchar]

If you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gameplay, you might be better suited for other 2D fighting games.

Like project M

 

[kinbobbobkin]

Well in the end, Sakurai can't please all the masses.

 

[ChikoLad]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. The “what if" argument can be applied to anything and doesn't prove anything. As far as we know, Dabuz is the best RosaLuma player. He gets better results than every other Rosa player. Therefore, his style of play can be assumed to be the most optimal until proven otherwise.


All of this is great and all, but since when were you the Rosalina aficionadao? Your opinion of how Rosa should be played is just that, an opinion. Unless you have the results to back it up, your statements are all wishful thinking. The thing that makes Rosa so annoying is her defensive play and using Luma as a shield. If you try to play aggressive with her, you're just a giant hotbox running at your opponent to get hit over and over. Your simile to Shull is not true at all. Playing Rosa defensively is very effective, while playing Shulk with one momado art is not.

Results aren't the end-all, be-all of what defines what a character is. Don't you know that tier lists don't even use results as the sole factor in their formation? Character potential is another big one. And there is a lot of untapped potential in Rosalina on Dabuz's part at the VERY least, and in many other players/characters. Stop talking as if the meta is static.

That second paragraph just tells me you don't know how to play the character, at all.

Okay, so saying Dabuz plays Rosalina optimally was very hasty for me to say, as nobody plays any of their characters to their fullest potential because nobody really knows any character's full potential yet. However, I still think that looking up to Dabuz as a role model for how to play Rosalina well is not a bad decision. The way I've always gotten better at a competitive game was by looking up how the pros played and taking tips from them. It's not a bad idea.

Now I wanna ask you a couple questions. I'm assuming you play Rosalina the way you describe, which you believe to be optimal(or at least close to it), correct? If so, then could you direct me to any tournaments or matches where you have won playing Rosalina this way? Tournament results establish a lot of credibility in a player. Also, could you explain to me how the Japanese or European Smash 4 scene is more varied than America's? Provide examples? I want definitive proof that Japan or Europe actually use a wider variety of characters than America does.

I never said he can't be used as a reference at all. The problem lies in using him as the end-all, be-all reference. Since he only uses one particular playstyle for Rosalina rather than mastering all of them to play her as a paradigm shifter, he inherently limits himself, especially when other players with other playstyles (falln plays a very aggressive Rosalina for example, and AceStarthe3rd plays a very balanced, all-round Rosalina) have proven other playstyles to be valid and fill in gaps in Dabuz's playstyle - ergo, the OPTIMAL way to play Rosalina is as a paradigm shifter, by switching up your playstyle for Rosalina AND Luma according to the situation. Essentially, it's OK to use him as a reference to a point, or if you PERSONALLY only want to play Rosalina defensively, but exclusively focusing on Dabuz as a reference for "how Rosalina plays" does not teach you how to play as Rosalina, it teaches you how to be play as Dabuz. Same goes with any other top player. You have to observe a variety of them, and try to innovate your own playstyle elements too.

For one example of a flaw in Dabuz's playstyle, he RARELY sends Luma out (which is likely a side effect of him not understanding Luma's untethered controls fully - a lot of players don't). Another example, he never really attacks unless he's sure Rosalina can come out unscathed. I have a video example of myself benefiting from sending my Luma out and INTENTIONALY letting Rosalina get hit (as there are benefits to it, such as letting Luma get in easy punishes that can KO or lead to one, or starting the "Luma Spin" technique, which can only be started while Rosalina is in hit stun).

I don't play in tournaments, but I have had sessions with tournament players in my country, and have been recommended to compete in various tournaments, including Celtic Throwdown, which is the biggest Irish gaming tournament that even has Nintendo as a sponsor. I hope to compete in it and a few other tournaments here, but unfortunately my life situation cannot accommodate this for now (and I know many other talented players suffer from this restriction). I also tend to get friend requests from For Glory players (talented ones) after having really nice sessions with them. I've also had people come to me for advice on Rosalina an awful lot, or request to spar with me. I may not be the best player in the world yet, but I am confident I have an expansive knowledge on the character and feel I have been pushing her forward and I have discovered things before others.

As far as European characters go, I believe Bowser, Fox, and R.O.B are of the more popular variety here compared to the US (all characters with playstyles that vary between them), off the top of my head. You can always just go look up a variety of tournaments statistics yourself, though, if you really are curious.

 

[Staticky]

If party gamers were competitive, they would spam projectiles. Noobs cant defend that for sh*t. Balance patches should be for the competitive crowd, not the casuals. Casuals stop playing Smash two weeks after the game comes out anyway. When Lucas drops, they'll hop in for a day or two, and get bored. They are more numerous, we are more dedicated.

 

[Casval]

I'm a huge dk fan, there's no hiding it, and also play the original 3 on my snes over and over. But if you compare the in-game design, art, and appeal of Tropical Freeze to the newest Mario game It's a HUGE improvement in terms of design and personality. So even though the original 3 were, and I agree, better games, DKC is still an amazing series that I don't think can be "bland" when talking newer titles. Comparing it to older titles, sure, it's a super bland game, but if you compare it to newer games Tropical freeze is pretty crisp.

I can definitely understand your point of view here. It is a huge technical improvement over the old games, but I do still think it's clunky and far too easy.

 

[redcometchar]

One thing that this game doesn't need is being another Melee.

I wouldn't mind another melee, to be honest. Not that I dislike super sm4sh brothers roll.

 

[ssbMars]

If party gamers were competitive, they would spam projectiles. Noobs cant defend that for sh*t. Balance patches should be for the competitive crowd, not the casuals. Casuals stop playing Smash two weeks after the game comes out anyway. When Lucas drops, they'll hop in for a day or two, and get bored. They are more numerous, we are more dedicated.

That's a fair point. In the end, we will eventually be the only crowd still playing Sm4sh. And with Sakurai having his way, we'll be competitive smashers playing a party game that's aimed to please intermediate players. I'm starting to get a hunch that Sm4sh isn't very well thought out in terms of longevity.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

That's your opinion. DK Tropical freeze was a great game by many. And I think Nintendo COMPLETELY cares about Donkey Kong and ALL of their series. Not sure where you get these ideas.

It was basically the same thing as the Wii version but with HD graphics. They made it because it was an easy launch title for the Wii u. They're not trying to develop the franchise or take the characters in new directions but simply recycled them to fill in a gap. DK used to be one of Nintendo's main franchises but for some reason they decided to throw it in the garbage after DK 64.

Smash's content serves a dual purpose, to pay homage to Nintendo history and to promote and sustain new games' popularity. The Kid Icarus content is an example of the latter.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

At the end of the day, I’m aiming for intermediately-skilled players to be able to properly enjoy the game. Fundamentally, my goal with Smash has been to create an “enjoyable party game”. If you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gameplay, you might be better suited for other 2D fighting games.

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I understand, but it sounds a bit farfetched. Smash 4 is still about "thrilling tactical gameplay", wanting or not. The game is very brain-oriented, (not implying Melee wasn't), so you still got to see what strategy you're going to use. How to punish this defense? How to get through this combo? How can I troll this player (e.g. Air-Dodge bait)? How can I comeback? All those elements are presents on the other Smashes, including Smash 4. The game may be made as a party game; it still did not lose its competitive way.

 

[Dustydog96]

I can definitely understand your point of view here. It is a huge technical improvement over the old games, but I do still think it's clunky and far too easy.

As are most games now-a-days. Kids today give up EASILY with games that are "too difficult" (challenging). I've seen it first hand. It's kind of sad. I tried to get my little 8 yr old 2nd cousin to try out Smash Bros. Melee and he couldn't even do it it :/ . Just kind of gave up before trying.

 

[Dustydog96]

It was basically the same thing as the Wii version but with HD graphics. They made it because it was an easy launch title for the Wii u. They're not trying to develop the franchise or take the characters in new directions but simply recycled them to fill in a gap. DK used to be one of Nintendo's main franchises but for some reason they decided to throw it in the garbage after DK 64.

Smash's content serves a dual purpose, to pay homage to Nintendo history and to promote and sustain new games' popularity. The Kid Icarus content is an example of the latter.

Tropical freeze wasn't a launch title for the Wii U though. I don't see where you got that. And if anything Donkey Kong has gotten a full revive these past years. If you compare the liveliness of Donkey Kong to something like Metroid, Donkey Kong is plenty alive. Tropical freeze last year, DKC 1-3 and DK64 release for Wii U VC this year. Possibly and almost likely an announcement for DKCR3 by retrostudios at e3 in a few days. I can't confirm that though ofc.

 

[ChikoLad]

If party gamers were competitive, they would spam projectiles. Noobs cant defend that for sh*t. Balance patches should be for the competitive crowd, not the casuals. Casuals stop playing Smash two weeks after the game comes out anyway. When Lucas drops, they'll hop in for a day or two, and get bored. They are more numerous, we are more dedicated.

That's a fair point. In the end, we will eventually be the only crowd still playing Sm4sh. And with Sakurai having his way, we'll be competitive smashers playing a party game that's aimed to please intermediate players. I'm starting to get a hunch that Sm4sh isn't very well thought out in terms of longevity.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheDexterManning

This guy is a "casual" Smash Wii U player, and has been uploading videos on the game since it's release, almost daily. He doesn't just do random videos all of the time either, he has dedicated series' like "Amiibo Challenge" (he gets Amiibos sent in by viewers and trained by viewers, and fights them), and "Git Gud" (going through every single character in the roster until he can consistently beat Level 9 CPUs with everyone in the roster).

He also made a nice beginners guide to playing as Rosalina (one of his mains - the other one is Little Mac), which I would personally recommend to anyone wishing to start out with the character and isn't quite ready to watch hour long videos on the character that other players might put out.

I'm sorry, but assuming casual players aren't dedicated to the game and trying to spread a positive image for the game in their own way is beyond ridiculous. Many casual players are dedicated in some fashion. So they deserve to be accounted for in the game's balance. They are customers. They paid money for the game. And they spend hours playing it. Just because they aren't amazing players and don't intend to be, doesn't mean they don't matter.

Also consider that you hear competitive players say "lol this game sux im going back to Melee" WAY more than you here a casual player say something like that.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Just accept the game how it is, Adapt , Don't over commit simple as that . IF you don't like how the game is then just don't play it at all if your gonna complain about balances , There's a strength and a weakness to every character , but it all depends on the player not the character. If you don't like it dont play it at all , no one is forcing you to play smash.

This mentality was necessary for games up until now. But adjustments can be made via patches. Sakurai JUST SAID in the article that they listen to online discussion and it is a factor in deciding on balancing. The fans are ultimately who the game is for. It is in the game's interest to adapt to how it is played in order to increase its longevity and sales. We don't have to accept games at their face value. Imagine if we had this mentality toward games like Halo: Master Chief Collection. We can complain all we want and should. It's what pushes developers to step up their game instead of meet the status quo. That's the only way video games in general can improve.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Tropical freeze wasn't a launch title for the Wii U though. I don't see where you got that. And if anything Donkey Kong has gotten a full revive these past years. If you compare the liveliness of Donkey Kong to something like Metroid, Donkey Kong is plenty alive. Tropical freeze last year, DKC 1-3 and DK64 release for Wii U VC this year. Possibly and almost likely an announcement for DKCR3 by retrostudios at e3 in a few days. I can't confirm that though ofc.

It might not have technically been a launch title but if you've played the game you noticed how recycled it was just like all the other games you mentioned. They're putting minimal effort into the franchise knowing that they can make money off nostalgia and name recognition. The franchise is far from being revived. If anything the franchise is zombie-like: dead but continuing to make money.

 

[ChikoLad]

It might have technically been a launch title but if you've played the game you noticed how recycled it was just like all the other games you mentioned. They're putting minimal effort into the franchise knowing that they can make money off nostalgia and name recognition. The franchise is far from being revived. If anything the franchise is zombie-like: dead but continuing to make money.

Actually, it's the complete opposite - Retro put a lot of love into the games, but they don't sell all that well. Tropical Freeze had lukewarm sales.

In terms of general attention though, DK has had it better than in years. They even brought him back into Mario Party as a playable character, which a lot of people got excited over.

 

[Staticky]

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheDexterManning

This guy is a "casual" Smash Wii U player, and has been uploading videos on the game since it's release, almost daily. He doesn't just do random videos all of the time either, he has dedicated series' like "Amiibo Challenge" (he gets Amiibos sent in by viewers and trained by viewers, and fights them), and "Git Gud" (going through every single character in the roster until he can consistently beat Level 9 CPUs with everyone in the roster).

He also made a nice beginners guide to playing as Rosalina (one of his mains - the other one is Little Mac), which I would personally recommend to anyone wishing to start out with the character and isn't quite ready to watch hour long videos on the character that other players might put out.

I'm sorry, but assuming casual players aren't dedicated to the game and trying to spread a positive image for the game in their own way is beyond ridiculous. Many casual players are dedicated in some fashion. So they deserve to be accounted for in the game's balance. They are customers. They paid money for the game. And they spend hours playing it. Just because they aren't amazing players and don't intend to be, doesn't mean they don't matter.

Also consider that you hear competitive players say "lol this game sux im going back to Melee" WAY more than you here a casual player say something like that.

I respect this guy alot, but he's also running a youtube channel with over a hundred thousand subscribers and Smash is an entertaining game to watch. Do you think he cares if Diddy Kong is nerfed? I don't think so. I also have a few friends that play casually, and both of them barely play. Brawl was entirely dedicated to casuals, and Sm4sh is mostly dedicated towards them too. Balance patches should be more for the competitive crowd and less for the casuals.