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The 3 Sacred Treasures - Pit Matchup Discussion Thread

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Ninj4pikachu

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Well I think both Marios have more options with customs. It definitely changes the matchup with Doc much more significantly, in that it opens up a huuuuge amoooount of tech for him. Mario can definitely exploit customs too, but I don't think it's as radical a change as Doc. I'd go so far as to say customs pushes the Mario matchup in his favour, maybe Doc, too. If nothing else, it makes it much easier for both Marios to punish us with a KO, in addition to the fact that it makes Doc a defensive maniac.

Howsoever the custom debate turns out, it's good to examine what customs can do. It's a different context that's worth scrutinous examination for that very reason.
I don't think the customs debate will ever be definitely over. Some people will always want to play with customs, and if there is a demand for custom tourneys, there will be local TO's that supply it. I feel that when talking about MUs, customs should always be considers into the equation because many people do use them and want to know how they factor in.

I'm unfamiliar with Dr. Mario's customs. What are his good ones? With them does he become as viable as Mario?
 
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Wintropy

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I don't think the customs debate will ever be definitely over. Some people will always want to play with customs, and if there is a demand for custom tourneys, there will be local TO's that supply it. I feel that when talking about MUs, customs should always be considers into the equation because many people do use them and want to know how they factor in.

I'm unfamiliar with Dr. Mario's customs. What are his good ones? With them does he become as viable as Mario?
Well, the custom set I use for Doc is:

Fast Capsule
Breezy Sheet
The Ol' One-Two
Soaring Tornado

Fast Capsule is a fast projectile that travels directly ahead. It's weaker than his standard capsule, yet the fact that it can be used in quick succession and has decent range means it's a good zoning tool.

Breezy Sheet trades reflective Super Sheet's reflective properties for a powerful windbox. It can reflect projectiles and turn the opponent if it hits close enough, but the reflector's sweetspot is much tinier than the standard sheet. It really is just a mobile windbox. In other words: it wrecks our recovery.

The Ol' One-Two is an explosive punch that trades vertical recovery for immense kill power. Doc's up-b already kills way earlier than Mario's and is a decent OOS option - this just amplifies it to the extent that it can kill us at about 60 - 80%. That is a huge boon for a defensive heavyweight like Doc, who's got a good projectile to force the approach and who relies on reactive play to get best results.

Soaring Tornado is a tornado that sends Doc at a very high vertical trajectory. The difference here is that, in addition to its excellent vertical momentum, it doesn't project a hitbox until the top of the jump (to wit: when Doc thrusts his arms out on the last few frames). The final hit has massive launching power, but it's kinda finicky to get the connection. What I use this custom for is the vertical recovery potential: timed right, it can carry Doc higher than most recoveries! The trick here is that it does have a fair amount of endlag before you can act after the final hitbox, so you need to be close to the edge to snap to it after going above it; it also has no horizontal momentum, so if you're far from the edge, you probably won't make it back. You can, of course, jump after using it if you have your second jump saved and then followup with up-b, so while it's a tad tricky to get used to, it can definitely make up for The Ol' One-Two's dismal distance.

Due to the fact that Mario has similar customs (he can use a variation of all of the above, except, obviously, for down-b) and is widely regarded as the better character means that, even with customs, Doc isn't as viable. It does close the gap significantly, though: Doc's options are drastically expanded with customs and mean he can really capitalise well on his defensive playstyle. The fact that he can pressure for an approach and punish on reaction with these tools makes him much more of a threat than in default. I won't comment on how much of a difference it is (I kinda jumped the gun when I said it doesn't change the matchup too much - I really have no reason to think it doesn't), but if I had to surmise from my experience with Doc, I'd say it definitely makes it more even.
 

Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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I don't think the customs debate will ever be definitely over. Some people will always want to play with customs, and if there is a demand for custom tourneys, there will be local TO's that supply it. I feel that when talking about MUs, customs should always be considers into the equation because many people do use them and want to know how they factor in.

I'm unfamiliar with Dr. Mario's customs. What are his good ones? With them does he become as viable as Mario?
Powerful windbox cape that's very very good, super fast pill that shoots forward and still stuns, Tornado that makes it up to par with Luigi's, good ol' one two is an explosive punch that kills stupidly early. Probably one of the best OoS options ever.
Also about your earlier question, I was using aerials in neutral, my fault. I know Shulk is supposed to be kept in the air, sorta like Roy in Melee. Thank you all for discussing this :)

Well I think both Marios have more options with customs. It definitely changes the matchup with Doc much more significantly, in that it opens up a huuuuge amoooount of tech for him. Mario can definitely exploit customs too, but I don't think it's as radical a change as Doc. I'd go so far as to say customs pushes the Mario matchup in his favour, maybe Doc, too. If nothing else, it makes it much easier for both Marios to punish us with a KO, in addition to the fact that it makes Doc a defensive maniac.

Howsoever the custom debate turns out, it's good to examine what customs can do. It's a different context that's worth scrutinous examination for that very reason.
Yea I think Docs customs make him high tier, to be honest. That last statement is so true too!


Something I forgot to mention about Doc since we are sorta still on it a bit, Doc can do this really fun thing where he falls off ledge, up b's next to ledge and the hitbox comes out giving him a powerful gimp/kill option where punishing it is practically non existent! It works super nicely on us because we have no hit box recovery upwards and we get easily punished for sideways recovery. If the Doc player knows this MU and knows about this, it can really be devastating not being aware
EDIT: Doc also gets gigantic benefit off of d throw reads. D throw to fair is a true combo on a lot of the cast, but not on us! so don't air dodge at kill percent. Which for fair and up b which are his devistating combo tools out of d throw, around 100 give or take position
 
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Ninj4pikachu

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http://youtu.be/7XbqFZH8JWs

I think luigi dose a little better in the neutral because of his crazy down throw shinanigins, but we win the offstage game. Keeping luigi in the air is the key. We have swords so we can him from further in the air and on ground.

I feel like this video really sums up the MU and gives insight into how to beat them. I'd say the MU is 45:55 Dark Pit favor.
 

Wintropy

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Honestly, I think it's an oversimplification to say we win if we keep Luigi in the air. Luigi is an incredibly slippery opponent that keeps you on your toes, he's very difficult to reliably combo and can get huge rewards off of a trivial punish.

The trick with this matchup is to remember that Luigi, like Pit, is a punishment demon. His mobility is godawful and he doesn't have very many strong moves in neutral, so he needs to exploit any and all weaknesses to get ahead. His grab is notorious for the d-throw followup combos it enables, up to and including f-air strings and the infamous 'nado: a single grab can result in upwards of 30% damage if discretion favours the green fellow. Even DI isn't an ideal option, since Luigi has a variety of followups to ensure that, no matter where you go, you get punished for it.

So we know Luigi's punish game is insane. He can easily dominate the neutral if you let him, with fireballs served every which way to force us to either try to out-camp him with arrows (risky, since Luigi can camp us out more conveniently than we can him) or approach. If we approach, we're in Luigi's element: now he can work to get the punish, and most importantly, the burden is on us to regain control of the set. Luigi loves it when his opponent is under pressure, as he can control the pace of the match with fireballs (a weak projectile that can nevertheless be spammed with ease, which makes mid-range options near-invalidated) and close-range options (grab is the obvious choice, but he has good frame data on his jab, f-air, b-air and n-air too, so watch out for these moves). If you really drop your guard, he can even seal the stock with a sweetspot up-b: essentially Jigglypuff's Rest with less endlag and moderately weaker kill power.

So how do we counter Luigi? Well, the good news is that, even though he can freely dominate the neutral if he's successful with his pressure tactics, he's very easy to exploit himself and has very few options out of his element. In the air, Luigi's only real answer is n-air (this is important, of course, I will get back to this in a moment), otherwise he's pretty easy to juggle. While it'd be naive to say his neutral game requires him to be within grab range or that that's his only viable option, he can himself be punished if we force him to approach instead. His fireballs, as mentioned, make it difficult to approach and our arrows only go so far to catch him out, so we need to get creative. If we can powershield his fireballs and force him to backpedal, he can end up totally free for a grab, which we can get decent mileage out of too; furthermore, because Luigi uses the 'nado a lot (especially as a d-throw followup or to punish our landing), we can get a feel for when he's going to use it and then shield-grab him from it. 'Nado may have favourable priority and does intense damage, but it's incredibly unsafe on shield, so a brief observation of when and how to best punish the 'nado can be a worthwhile investment indeed. You can, in theory, side-b to punish it, but I'd be very wary of this: 'nado's hitbox has a ton of distance to cover if it travels horizontally, which means it can hit you on the final frames when side-b's super armour dissipates. Just shield it and followup however you feel comfortable.

This is a very important point I need to mention, which applies to every stage of the match: beware reliance on combos! Luigi's n-air is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for combos, since it can come out between hitboxes and sends the target vertically. Luigi, as I mentioned, is a slippery opponent and his habit of punishing even the briefest drop in defence means we can never get too comfortable with our combos. Focus instead on punishing when appropriate and be sure to respect Luigi's options, because going full-on rushdown on the green fellow is a surefire way to get bodied.

Off-stage, we have a clear advantage so long as we steer clear of the 'nado: his recovery is decent if he uses up-b or 'nado in conjunction with side-b, but the side-b itself is criminally easy to intercept, either with an aerial or just with a kamikaze jump in front of it. It can discharge on occasion, so be wary of the kamikaze method if other options are viable. The 'nado itself can make interception dangerous, but fortunately it's only a viable option if Luigi is right below the ledge. Our job is to therefore keep Luigi as far away from the stage as possible: a good gimp can force Luigi into a position where he's just unable to recover! His edgeguarding game doesn't have much in the way of options either: except for fireballs and, if he's feeling bold, the 'nado, we should be able to go deep and recover quite neatly.

Overall, I think this matchup is tricky but bearable. I wouldn't say it's too far in either party's favour, but it can be very difficult for us to capitalise on our otherwise ubiquitous combos in this game. We need to respect Luigi's options and be able to return the favour whenever we get the chance to. It's a war of attrition, but if we persevere and fight with discretion and finesse, we can win it.
 

Tito Maas

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Did you watch the video in my above post?
Posting a video of two high level players in a tournament is never as effective a way of demonstrating how to play a matchup as, well, actually explaining how to play the matchup. I've also seen that video and have trouble against Luigis, just like I've seen many a Nairo video and not as good as Nairo.

Many matchups threads don't have strong insight into matchups and that really hurts the learning aspect of these threads. There's never a one or two-liner way to beat a character, otherwise that character would never be brought up in anyone's matchup thread. So, I appreciate posts like:

Honestly, I think it's an oversimplification to say we win if we keep Luigi in the air. Luigi is an incredibly slippery opponent that keeps you on your toes, he's very difficult to reliably combo and can get huge rewards off of a trivial punish.

The trick with this matchup is to remember that Luigi, like Pit, is a punishment demon. His mobility is godawful and he doesn't have very many strong moves in neutral, so he needs to exploit any and all weaknesses to get ahead. His grab is notorious for the d-throw followup combos it enables, up to and including f-air strings and the infamous 'nado: a single grab can result in upwards of 30% damage if discretion favours the green fellow. Even DI isn't an ideal option, since Luigi has a variety of followups to ensure that, no matter where you go, you get punished for it.

So we know Luigi's punish game is insane. He can easily dominate the neutral if you let him, with fireballs served every which way to force us to either try to out-camp him with arrows (risky, since Luigi can camp us out more conveniently than we can him) or approach. If we approach, we're in Luigi's element: now he can work to get the punish, and most importantly, the burden is on us to regain control of the set. Luigi loves it when his opponent is under pressure, as he can control the pace of the match with fireballs (a weak projectile that can nevertheless be spammed with ease, which makes mid-range options near-invalidated) and close-range options (grab is the obvious choice, but he has good frame data on his jab, f-air, b-air and n-air too, so watch out for these moves). If you really drop your guard, he can even seal the stock with a sweetspot up-b: essentially Jigglypuff's Rest with less endlag and moderately weaker kill power.

So how do we counter Luigi? Well, the good news is that, even though he can freely dominate the neutral if he's successful with his pressure tactics, he's very easy to exploit himself and has very few options out of his element. In the air, Luigi's only real answer is n-air (this is important, of course, I will get back to this in a moment), otherwise he's pretty easy to juggle. While it'd be naive to say his neutral game requires him to be within grab range or that that's his only viable option, he can himself be punished if we force him to approach instead. His fireballs, as mentioned, make it difficult to approach and our arrows only go so far to catch him out, so we need to get creative. If we can powershield his fireballs and force him to backpedal, he can end up totally free for a grab, which we can get decent mileage out of too; furthermore, because Luigi uses the 'nado a lot (especially as a d-throw followup or to punish our landing), we can get a feel for when he's going to use it and then shield-grab him from it. 'Nado may have favourable priority and does intense damage, but it's incredibly unsafe on shield, so a brief observation of when and how to best punish the 'nado can be a worthwhile investment indeed. You can, in theory, side-b to punish it, but I'd be very wary of this: 'nado's hitbox has a ton of distance to cover if it travels horizontally, which means it can hit you on the final frames when side-b's super armour dissipates. Just shield it and followup however you feel comfortable.

This is a very important point I need to mention, which applies to every stage of the match: beware reliance on combos! Luigi's n-air is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for combos, since it can come out between hitboxes and sends the target vertically. Luigi, as I mentioned, is a slippery opponent and his habit of punishing even the briefest drop in defence means we can never get too comfortable with our combos. Focus instead on punishing when appropriate and be sure to respect Luigi's options, because going full-on rushdown on the green fellow is a surefire way to get bodied.

Off-stage, we have a clear advantage so long as we steer clear of the 'nado: his recovery is decent if he uses up-b or 'nado in conjunction with side-b, but the side-b itself is criminally easy to intercept, either with an aerial or just with a kamikaze jump in front of it. It can discharge on occasion, so be wary of the kamikaze method if other options are viable. The 'nado itself can make interception dangerous, but fortunately it's only a viable option if Luigi is right below the ledge. Our job is to therefore keep Luigi as far away from the stage as possible: a good gimp can force Luigi into a position where he's just unable to recover! His edgeguarding game doesn't have much in the way of options either: except for fireballs and, if he's feeling bold, the 'nado, we should be able to go deep and recover quite neatly.

Overall, I think this matchup is tricky but bearable. I wouldn't say it's too far in either party's favour, but it can be very difficult for us to capitalise on our otherwise ubiquitous combos in this game. We need to respect Luigi's options and be able to return the favour whenever we get the chance to. It's a war of attrition, but if we persevere and fight with discretion and finesse, we can win it.
Thanks much. I'll keep this in mind because I was trashed by a Luigi on Anther's Ladder just earlier today. Though I will admit I lack experience in the matchup overall. Seems like Luigi still has the advantage just because of the damage he can do at once and us seemingly have to be on the defensive the entire match outside of him being offstage.

Off of reading your analysis, it seems like Dark Pit would be the more favorable character to use. Doesn't seem like Upperdash will be extremely effective in the middle of the stage considering fireball spam and the ability to be grabbed out of the attack altogether. Since our best bet is not only getting him off-stage but punishing landings, the Electroarm might be a bit better suited. We want him in the corner anyway, and though we don't have arrows to make him dodge through like Pit, the kamikazi and interception method seems more reliable anyway due to his ability to get back to the edge, even if it is a bit telegraphed and slow.
 
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Wintropy

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Thanks much. I'll keep this in mind because I was trashed by a Luigi on Anther's Ladder just earlier today. Though I will admit I lack experience in the matchup overall. Seems like Luigi still has the advantage just because of the damage he can do at once and us seemingly have to be on the defensive the entire match outside of him being offstage.
It isn't really that we have to be on the defensive, more so that we have to be more judicious with how we apply our tech. Pit is always a character who focuses on defense and reactive play to a fair degree, we just need to be a bit more extreme with it in this matchup. The fact that he can force us to yield and then exploit our defence, in addition to his knack for escaping combos, means we can't be as footloose as we can in a few other matchups.

Off of reading your analysis, it seems like Dark Pit would be the more favorable character to use. Doesn't seem like Upperdash will be extremely effective in the middle of the stage considering fireball spam and the ability to be grabbed out of the attack altogether. Since our best bet is not only getting him off-stage but punishing landings, the Electroarm might be a bit better suited. We want him in the corner anyway, and though we don't have arrows to make him dodge through like Pit, the kamikazi and interception method seems more reliable anyway due to his ability to get back to the edge, even if it is a bit telegraphed and slow.
I'm inclined to agree. I think the arrows are fairly redundant in this matchup anyway. The fact that Electroshock can set up for an off-stage duel is very welcome. It isn't a profound distinction in the same way that the Dark Pit / Rosalina matchup is, but it's definitely an edge (pun unintended).
 

Project_B

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Also keep in mind that Luigi's low traction prevents him from effectively shield-grabbing you after a well spaced attack, and not getting grabbed is, in my opinion, THE most important objective in fighting Luigi. The second most important is edgeguarding. With DP, electroshock will send Luigi offstage at low percents, however it is very laggy on shield or on miss, and because one of Luigi's best approaches is run in->shield, if you want to try your luck you can short hop->immediate side B, and upon hitting shield you will be tougher to punish because of how you rise up into the air. I would suggest practicing this in a safe environment first though, to get the feel of it. One more thing to practice is the Pit/DP combo of dThrow->bAir. Hitting it requires your opponent to not DI too far away (forcing you to combo into fAir), and it requires the tech skill involved with a turnaround back air. That is exactly what it sounds like, turning around then using a back air, but it can be difficult. This pays off in the matchup because back air is a better move to beat out Luigi's nAir (which can stop many combos) and does more damage than forward air and more knockback. In other words, it sets up better into edgeguards, and at low percents it will combo into itself better than forward air (being a quicker-ending non-multihit move). Remember that this combo is not going to be true at all percents depending on DI, but once you get the turnaround bAir down, it will help a lot with all characters due to the general natures of back airs, often being stronger, faster, and/or more damaging than forward aerials (Nairo uses this well with DP, Lucina, and ZSS).

As with most of every Smash game, fundamentals and reads are the basis of all good players, but I hope you as well as any Pit player reading this can benefit from the concepts and tech-skills I mentioned. I had meant for this to be a short post, but whatever. I wish you the best for the Luigi matchup (I know how annoying it is), and remember, it's just like the Ice Climbers in Brawl... Don't get grabbed!
 

Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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Also keep in mind that Luigi's low traction prevents him from effectively shield-grabbing you after a well spaced attack, and not getting grabbed is, in my opinion, THE most important objective in fighting Luigi. The second most important is edgeguarding. With DP, electroshock will send Luigi offstage at low percents, however it is very laggy on shield or on miss, and because one of Luigi's best approaches is run in->shield, if you want to try your luck you can short hop->immediate side B, and upon hitting shield you will be tougher to punish because of how you rise up into the air. I would suggest practicing this in a safe environment first though, to get the feel of it. One more thing to practice is the Pit/DP combo of dThrow->bAir. Hitting it requires your opponent to not DI too far away (forcing you to combo into fAir), and it requires the tech skill involved with a turnaround back air. That is exactly what it sounds like, turning around then using a back air, but it can be difficult. This pays off in the matchup because back air is a better move to beat out Luigi's nAir (which can stop many combos) and does more damage than forward air and more knockback. In other words, it sets up better into edgeguards, and at low percents it will combo into itself better than forward air (being a quicker-ending non-multihit move). Remember that this combo is not going to be true at all percents depending on DI, but once you get the turnaround bAir down, it will help a lot with all characters due to the general natures of back airs, often being stronger, faster, and/or more damaging than forward aerials (Nairo uses this well with DP, Lucina, and ZSS).

As with most of every Smash game, fundamentals and reads are the basis of all good players, but I hope you as well as any Pit player reading this can benefit from the concepts and tech-skills I mentioned. I had meant for this to be a short post, but whatever. I wish you the best for the Luigi matchup (I know how annoying it is), and remember, it's just like the Ice Climbers in Brawl... Don't get grabbed!
Nice post. Though it would be not as punishable, would side b not sending Luigi too far make it worth it? Could you bounce off the shield then go to the ledge as a crossup kinda thing but snap to the ledge for no cooldown? Does it vary on distance or is it not possible? Dthrow to back air is great, I use it sometimes, but I never thought of giving it that kinda utility
 

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Well, in my experience, aerial side B does not send characters very far at low percents, but, the base knock back should be enough to hit Luigi into the air and away from the stage, allowing for a Dark Pit player to use their sword hitboxes to keep Luigi away, so if you are confident that you could get a read on an aerial or air dodge, go for it, but if you are unsure, or your opponent keeps you guessing too much, it is safer to avoid throwing it out unless the Luigi is right near the edge. To answer your second question, after bouncing off of a shield using an aerial side B, you can snap to the edge, however, keep in mind that you cannot attack after bouncing, and the Luigi would be pushed back to where you are trying to cross them up, allowing them to punish you, should they think you are going to go over them, but they can't shield grab you because they will be facing the wrong direction. You can also bounce away and go offstage/to the ledge, and Luigi almost certainly won't follow, but remember, these tactics are best as mix ups if you are in the same situation more than once, and being on the ledge is disadvantageous, positionally. In training mode, you can test out the distances you can go by connecting an aerial side B (on shield or not - it doesn't matter) then holding different directions. I hope I helped, Luigi is much tougher for sword characters in SSB4 than in the previous games.
 

Red Pittoo ~ Rekt

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Well, in my experience, aerial side B does not send characters very far at low percents, but, the base knock back should be enough to hit Luigi into the air and away from the stage, allowing for a Dark Pit player to use their sword hitboxes to keep Luigi away, so if you are confident that you could get a read on an aerial or air dodge, go for it, but if you are unsure, or your opponent keeps you guessing too much, it is safer to avoid throwing it out unless the Luigi is right near the edge. To answer your second question, after bouncing off of a shield using an aerial side B, you can snap to the edge, however, keep in mind that you cannot attack after bouncing, and the Luigi would be pushed back to where you are trying to cross them up, allowing them to punish you, should they think you are going to go over them, but they can't shield grab you because they will be facing the wrong direction. You can also bounce away and go offstage/to the ledge, and Luigi almost certainly won't follow, but remember, these tactics are best as mix ups if you are in the same situation more than once, and being on the ledge is disadvantageous, positionally. In training mode, you can test out the distances you can go by connecting an aerial side B (on shield or not - it doesn't matter) then holding different directions. I hope I helped, Luigi is much tougher for sword characters in SSB4 than in the previous games.
You did help, thanks! He is just annoying me so much
 
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