Thanks for Playing 3 - August 17, 2013 - Ijamsville, MD

[SheerMadness]

Looks like you guys need to create a sheermadness fund so I can give the people some non pikachu dreamland matches.

A$ at least you attempt to deviate from the tier list in tourney (not very successfully yesterday but you tried lol). Good job on winning. You certainly pwned everyone in Pikachu dittos.

 

[Han Solo]

Well, I guess the metagame has plateau'd. See you guys around I guess.

RIP SSB64. 1999-2013

 

[SheerMadness]

OH and the stupid 4 stock format doesn't help in character diversity on dreamland. No mid-low tier wants to play vs Pika or Kirby on dreamland with LESS stocks and usual.

Lame.

EDIT: AND people wanna ban hyrule. Yah let's ban hyrule so mid/low tiers have to deal with pika and kirby mainly on dreamland. Then let's go ahead and play with 4 stock so they have even less of a chance to win. That'll help character diversity in tourneys.

Ugh. The logic behind all these potential rule changes lately is mind boggling and make me wanna rage.

 

[The Star King]

Literally like 1 person played only Pika and you people still are complaining.

And only like 3 went Pika a majority of the time.

Bye Han Solo.

 

[Sedda]

OH and the stupid 4 stock format doesn't help in character diversity on dreamland. No mid-low tier wants to play vs Pika or Kirby on dreamland with LESS stocks and usual.

Lame.

EDIT: AND people wanna ban hyrule. Yah let's ban hyrule so mid/low tiers have to deal with pika and kirby mainly on dreamland. Then let's go ahead and play with 4 stock so they have even less of a chance to win. That'll help character diversity in tourneys.

Ugh. The logic behind all these potential rule changes lately is mind boggling and make me wanna rage.

Please bring this up in the other thread. You know how people are. They somehow FORGET about this stuff...

 

[Yobolight]

LMAO Pikachu is still the best character on Hyrule.
Even against Fox all Pika has to do is camp left side and it automatically wins. The stage is broken for Pika.
At least Falcon goes even with Pika on Dreamland.

Who is going to get a boost from Hyrule anyway?
DK is worse on Hyrule
Ness is worse on Hyrule
Yoshi is worse on Hyrule
Samus is worse on Hyrule

Basically anyone slow can just be camped out on Hyrule, especially with a timer.

It is really just Link, Mario, and Fox who get really sizable boosts from the stage because they can camp it up.

This just happened to be tournament with like Kero, A$, and Sensei who are the best players in the Atlantic North and they all main Pika so no wonder you see Pika dominating the stream. It is because the best players main Pika.

At least Pika dittos are infinitely more entertaining on Dreamland than Hyrule.

IMO people are just lazy, look at Japanese tournament thread. S (the Japanese fox player) has placed highly year after year in on Dreamland only tournaments with a nerfed Fox.
In some years the Nerfed Yoshi has made it to Grand finals.

The character variety is sooo much stronger their because they play on single stage where deep metagame development can take place.

 

[Cobrevolution]

There's like no incentive to develop any other characters but pika

personal enjoyment?

the fear of losing is so prevalent that people think they are forced to play these characters

at least that's how i look at it

long yobo post

about to respond to a few points

notice yobo apparently switched from ness to pika

doesn't even bother commenting

 

[mixa]

There's like no incentive to develop any other characters but pika

pfff you guys need to be character locked to develop some luv for the characters

 

[Sedda]

Apex should be a low tier tourney

 

[SheerMadness]

Who is going to get a boost from Hyrule anyway?
DK is worse on Hyrule
Ness is worse on Hyrule
Yoshi is worse on Hyrule
Samus is worse on Hyrule

DK, Ness, and Samus all get wrecked by Pikachu on dreamland. So I fail to see your point.

Oh and Yobo I'd wreck your Pika with Fox if you camped the left side of hyrule vs me.

 

[EggSelent]

LMAO Pikachu is still the best character on Hyrule.
Even against Fox all Pika has to do is camp left side and it automatically wins. The stage is broken for Pika.
At least Falcon goes even with Pika on Dreamland.

Who is going to get a boost from Hyrule anyway?
DK is worse on Hyrule
Ness is worse on Hyrule
Yoshi is worse on Hyrule
Samus is worse on Hyrule

Basically anyone slow can just be camped out on Hyrule, especially with a timer.

It is really just Link, Mario, and Fox who get really sizable boosts from the stage because they can camp it up.

This just happened to be tournament with like Kero, A$, and Sensei who are the best players in the Atlantic North and they all main Pika so no wonder you see Pika dominating the stream. It is because the best players main Pika.

At least Pika dittos are infinitely more entertaining on Dreamland than Hyrule.

IMO people are just lazy, look at Japanese tournament thread. S (the Japanese fox player) has placed highly year after year in on Dreamland only tournaments with a nerfed Fox.
In some years the Nerfed Yoshi has made it to Grand finals.

The character variety is sooo much stronger their because they play on single stage where deep metagame development can take place.

Isn't Jiggly far better on Hyrule too? There's a lot more room to develop spacing, fewer platforms for Captain Falcon to camp under, more space to utilize Jiggly's horizontal recovery, etc

 

[clubbadubba]

Just have to say, having less stocks gives the underdog a better chance to pull off the upset. So 4 stocks is better than 5 for low-mid tiers in matchups they are underdogs in. Sorry had to correct that from a mathematical standpoint. High variance favors underdogs, don't say otherwise because its factually incorrect. If pika beats link on DL (which we all agree), link is better off with 4 stocks not 5.

Also, stop trying to select the stage list so that the match-ups are balanced. That's a silly and unfeasible task. For one, no one even agrees on which match-ups are better where. IMO dk vs pika is fine on DL. Samus is much better vs everyone on DL. Sheer disagrees with those apparently. Why should we pick stages based on criteria that isn't agreed upon? Pick stages that don't have random things, don't have hazards, don't have options to avoid conflict for extended periods of time, and don't have ridiculously stacked strategies available. The match-ups will evolve over time anyway.

 

[Sensei]

Had a fun tourney this weekend! Even though I had a cold and foot cramps lol, I still had a blast.

I will post shout outs once the results are posted.

BTW, I'm leaning towards Hyrule being banned (95%) from tournament. It is a fun stage to play on in friendlies, but not for tournament. It is time to develop the meta-game further.

 

[B Link]

Isn't Jiggly far better on Hyrule too? There's a lot more room to develop spacing, fewer platforms for Captain Falcon to camp under, more space to utilize Jiggly's horizontal recovery, etc

Yeah Jiggly is way better on Hyrule. You can air camp and/or platform camp much more effectively.

 

[SheerMadness]

Just have to say, having less stocks gives the underdog a better chance to pull off the upset. So 4 stocks is better than 5 for low-mid tiers in matchups they are underdogs in.

I would agree in match ups that are fairly even. But that is flawed logic in numerous stacked match ups. Especially in ones where gimping plays a big role.

The less stocks Ness has vs Pika on dreamland, the more flawlessly they have to play. The more stocks Ness has the less debilitating those gimps are.

So decreasing stocks just compounds the match up difficulty in a lot of match ups.

That's why banning hyrule then decreasing stocks just doesn't make sense. If were going to ban hyrule we should be talking about increasing stocks to 6 or something. But we shouldn't ban hyrule so that's a moot point.

 

[The Star King]

DO PEOPLE HAVE TO START AN ARGUMENT ABOUT THE RULESET IN EVERY TOURNAMENT THREAD EVER SERIOUSLY

THERE'S ALREADY LIKE FIVE THREADS TO TALK ABOUT IT

GAWD

 

[clubbadubba]

ITT too sheer?!?! False false false false false!

I can beat any pika in the world on dreamland with link in a 1 stock match if I played 100 matches. I would never win a 100 stock match vs a lot of pikas on DL with link if I played 100 matches. Odds are in your favor. There are no buts about this. Please stop

 

[SheerMadness]

You're not seeing the whole picture in terms of variance.

So 4 stocks is better than 5 for low-mid tiers in matchups they are underdogs in.

I'm assuming your use of "underdogs" there was referring to the poor match up.

An A tier Ness wants less variance vs a B tier Pikachu. It's not purely about character match ups. It gives the Ness more opportunities to recover from gimps and outplay that B tier player.

Just because it's a poor character match up doesn't mean that player wants higher variance. It depends on the proportionate skill level of the 2 players. You can't blindly apply variance to all poor character match ups and claim it's in their favor since it's higher variance.

 

[clubbadubba]

2 threads same discussion lol. I vote we stay in this one for minimal annoyance to people.

Yes that's what I meant by underdogs, and yes you're right obvi the better player in that specific match-up prefers more stocks and the worse player prefers less stocks. That's always the case. Going to 4 stocks increases variance, so we will see more upsets. Yes it means B tier pika's will beat A tier ness's more often, but it also means B tier ness's will beat A tier pika's more often.

Btw Idk how everyone else felt about 4 stocks at the tourney but it was fine with me. How about the other players?

 

[SheerMadness]

Theoretically, but come on. The variance added to a B tier Ness vs A tier Pika match will not have the same impact as the other way around. We both know that.

The added variance CLEARLY favors the b tier pika in those examples cause he's got an amazing match up vs ness and far more room for error. So again you can't blindly apply the higher variance thing and act like it's equally helpful in all match ups.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yes the statistical variance probably increases more for the 1st matchup (B pika vs A ness) than the second. All I'm saying is that for anyone who was currently playing ness or link on DL (very few people) this change to 4 stocks is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[Sedda]

From the Hyrule thread:

I'm cool with cutting games down to 4 stocks because of time, and I'm ok with people saying that they don't like campy playstyles and long matches (even though I don't mind).

The part I don't get is the "a ness would have to play better with 4 stocks as opposed to 5" part. It's true, but is that a good reason? I wouldn't want to play 4 stocks just because of that. It's like the bo1 thing. Wouldn't the Ness have to play a lot better in a bo1? Why don't you change things to bo1? Why then don't we do 10 with bo1, or maybe 1 stock bo10? I just don't get how that concept can be beneficial for the anti-hyrule people. I get it, but is the difference in that sense really that much? Just trying to understand

 

[SheerMadness]

All I'm saying is that for anyone who was currently playing ness or link on DL (very few people) this change to 4 stocks is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Lol no it's not. Not for any top Link, Ness, or Fox player. They don't want higher variance, especially since most of the people they play in tourney will be a lesser skilled player.

You just agreed with me that it depends on proportionate skill level.

Frogles is clearly better than LD. But he said still loses to LD a good amount on DL because "Ness can get gimped". Frogles wants more stocks and less variance in this situation.

 

[clubbadubba]

It's not true, read above and look up stuff about variance in competition. Whoever is least likely to win in a match-up benefits from having less stocks. I agree, this should have nothing to do with stage selection, as number of stocks was already arbitrary.

@Sheer, yes we've been over that part and it seems we aren't in disagreement. When discussing balance of characters I usually make the assumption that both players are on the same skill level because if they aren't then character match-up discussions shouldn't even be coming up. When both players are the same skill level, ness < fox, so ness wants less stocks.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah you guys aren't actually disagreeing with each other, the more likely to win wants less variance. Now stfu

 

[SheerMadness]

Just making sure he knows it's not as cut and dry as "low tier players always want more variance".

And to be honest, my Yoshi wants more stocks vs another A tier Pikachu. I have far more experience in that match up experience than they do.

So it's not even as cut and dry as "lower tiered players want more variance in the event of playing an equally skilled high tier player".

 

[Olikus]

****ing east cost and theyr pika japanese ruleset. Im with Han on this one.

 

[Cobrevolution]

DON'T GENERALIZE US

 

[Nintendude]

Full RESULTS:
http://smashboards.com/threads/thanks-for-playing-3-8-17-13-ijamsville-md.340110/

 

[KeroKeroppi]

This was a lot of fun. Good games everyone.

I'll post shoutouts later.

Until then, enjoy this gif of a dog doing backflips.

 

[banze]

Nintendude, are you guys going to put this on youtube ??
looking forward !

 

[TANK64]

Yobo going in.

Sheer with some good points.

Semi-interesting results with non-interesting chars.

Per Gud thread. 7/10

Char locks would make people soooo much better/less *******.

That's what I've tried to do for a whilllle now.

...but than again I don't play Pika or Kirby so I guess I'm doing it wrong.

Oh and congratz to A$. Dude is too good.

 

[Karajan]

IMO people are just lazy, look at Japanese tournament thread. S (the Japanese fox player) has placed highly year after year in on Dreamland only tournaments with a nerfed Fox.
In some years the Nerfed Yoshi has made it to Grand finals.

Original fox is better than NTSC Fox. Most characters are better in (J) version.

The character variety is sooo much stronger their because they play on single stage where deep metagame development can take place.

Na its cause of the character lock, and much better players

 

[Jnatty]

GGs, everyone. I had a great time, and I got a lot of good friendlies in.

Specific shout outs:
1. A$- good games. Proud to have only been 2-stocked by your Pika on dl. Wish I could have played against your Link just to see it. Great tournament.
2. Kero- as always, great to see you. I had fun in our few friendlies, but I wish I could have played more with you. Great tournament. Idk how you did so well after a month off.
3. Sensei- good seeing you, but we didn't play any games aside from the team tournament :/
4. M2K- good to have finally met you. Wish we could have actually finished some friendlies. I definitely have a thing or two to learn from you about how to space and edge guard efficiently. GG's in teams.
5. Star King- I wish we could have played more than just those few friendlies. I can't wait to see you play with a keyboard adaptor.
5. Stranded - Great tournament. Glad we got a few friendlies in.
7. Weedwack- thanks a lot for letting me crash at your place after the tournament. I really enjoyed our friendlies. Once again, that tech you're working on with Ness is some crazy ****. Way to rep NY/NJ with that low tier main.
7. Nintendude- thanks for organizing everything, and GG's in tourney. I wanted to at least take you to 3 games if we played, but that obviously didn't happen. Maybe some day. Great tournament, though.
9. Clubba- I have still only played you in 1 friendly, and I don't think I even saw you play any tournament matches this weekend. I'd like to eventually sit down and play with you for a while. Maybe online when I finally get it set up.
9. Jnatty....
9. Wenbo- Didn't see you play at all and I never played against you. Maybe next time.
9. Breakthrough- Thanks for hosting me. Great games in teams, and thanks for giving me a place to stay Friday night. Great friendlies, but don't give up on Falcon just because the kirby match is terrible. Good job in tourney, and maybe I'll play you online or see you at another tournament some day.
13. Ceaser- Tough bracket, but good job. I had fun in our friendlies.
13. Justin- great games in tournament. Those could have gone either way. I felt like I didn't out play you, just that I got a couple of hits that mattered.
13. Maliki- Good seeing you and playing some friendlies.
13. Sheers- you are hilarious. I had fun in our friendlies. good tourney.
17. Jono- GGs. Keep at it.
17. Bloodpeach- Great games in friendlies, and thanks a lot for doing all of the recording/commentating and for picking up M2K. I'm glad I didn't have to wake up early to do that. Tough brackets, but good job in teams.
17. Tom and Willcox- I can't remember if we played friendlies, but thanks for coming out and supporting the smash 64 community.

 

[thegreginator]

Wait wait wait. Who won the crew battle?? The video cut out after VD/MA got their ass handed to them in the first couple of games.

 

[Cobrevolution]

questions you know the answers to you don't need to ask, gregory

 

[mixa]

seeing there was no Star King photoshoot, MD/VA must've won

 

[clubbadubba]

Didn't finish because the venue kicked us out. Saved m2k, weedwack, and ceasar a whole lot of pain from my falcon.

 

[thegreginator]

The next crew battle is gonna be a bloodbath. Especially when FULL POWER GREG comes back.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

i really don't understand your logic sheer. 4 stocks gives low tiers less of a chance? are you forgetting that both players start off with 4, not just the low tier?

>"samus gets wrecked by pikachu on dreamland"

>jousuke wins japanese tournament in 4 stock matches best of 1 format against high tiers on dreamland only with SAMUS

you don't have to play "flawlessly." how about just don't be bad?