Teleporting for Dummies: A New In-progress Ness Stage Guide

[M]

Old Ness stage discussion thread has died off, and the information within them is old and definitely in need of a touch up, so I'm putting together this guide, to help Ness players make that right choice with their stages in tournament, whether its choosing the best counterpick for a particular character, or just deciding on the starter that best fits your Ness' style. This guide will have that information.

Obviously lacking stages at this point in time. But it's new, and discussion has yet to take place! I'll likely use this thread as a composition of all of the useful information we collect for each individual stage, such as flaws that hinder our character, and who we should and shouldn't take there.



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Battlefield

Discussion begins at post #6.

__________

Smashville

Discussion begins at post #48.

__________

Final Destination

Discussion begins at post #147.

TO BE UPDATED!....

 

[Jiffyboob]

*supports this*

 

[Neon Ness]

Actual discussions can take place in separate threads and I'll index them in here. Also needs a cool heading/banner thing when one is made.

OOH OOH LET ME MAKE ONE

Why separate threads though? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have them all in this thread? And then update the OP with a link to the page/post starting each stage's discussion.

Or at least I thought that would be better. If everyone else thinks it's better to have separate threads, then... OK.

Glad you took initiative and made this, I forgot about the old one lol.

 

[Yink]

I think what he means is the way most places (including our dear Ness board) does match-up discussion threads, and then will link the individual discussion on the first page.

I personally think that way's better but it's Meteor's call to make.

Nice job dude, I'll help out any way I can...and Neon, let's collab it

 

[Wave⁂]

I was expecting some super-awesome broken Ness technique for teleporting

and then this happens

 

[Eagleye893]

^lol, ditto.

Here's what I say for each of the obviously neutral stages:

BF:
*** PKjump is extremely bad.
+** FH pkFire is also cut off by the platforms and you land on the platforms sometimes, but can still be used.
++* FH dair to ff into platform is slightly more liable than some other stages.
+++ pkt juggling is super easy...
+** pkt going into pkt2 is possible and easy at certain points on the stage, but the platforms generally destroy it.
++* uair is safer.
++*dashattack sets up easier.

I'll add later...

 

[M]

Yeah I dunno why it slipped my mind, suppose just keeping it all in this thread is the appropriate thing to do. Done. Thanks for the suggestions and support.


Might as well get this started now. We are discussing:

.......Go.

 

[Eagleye893]

^lol, ditto.

Here's what I say for each of the obviously neutral stages:

BF:
*** PKjump is extremely bad.
+** FH pkFire is also cut off by the platforms and you land on the platforms sometimes, but can still be used.
++* FH dair to ff into platform is slightly more liable than some other stages.
+++ pkt juggling is super easy...
+** pkt going into pkt2 is possible and easy at certain points on the stage, but the platforms generally destroy it.
++* uair is safer.
++*dashattack sets up easier.
+** potential setups to jab-locks using the platforms... problem is most smart players will know about it, so it doesn't matter.
+++ being able to land on different platforms while recovering or directing yourself after a fail pkt with PKT2 gives options to avoid being destroyed.
*** FH approaches are destroyed at some parts of the stage with platforms. (That is why I hate it)
???

Now FD:

+++ PKjump is completely unrestricted by platforms, greatly increasing it's liability.
*** Cg =
++* Marths dislike this stage (IIRC)
++* Grounded PKfire is normal.... just meh.
++* Obvious paths of projectiles, making it easier to absorb things or reflect things back.
*** Less options for aerials in terms of approach (ness' approach is fairly telegraphed.)
++* dashattack is meh. I like it because it is easy to guess where they'll land. Dash attack is better on oddly slanted stages though...
*** not nearly as easy to PKT juggle reliably.
*** FD hates my recovery attempts.
???

SV:
++++++++++++++++++++MY FAVORITE!!!!! xD
+++ Platform is fairly easy to time out it's movement, and you can use that to your advantage with FH PKfire and PKjump.
+++ Platform can be used for quick kills off edges.
++* cool tricks with Barto's platform canceling can also come to good use.... I just can't do it.
+++ Stage is very nice with recovery attempts (no odd bounces when firing up at the ledge)
+++ PKT2 from under stage is also probable (I've done it 2-3 times... of 5 times I needed to do that...)
++* flat main platform is like FD. (you can take this however you want)
+++ Platform allows for grab avoidance
+++ Platform dropdown is my strongpoint, and the moving platform allows for awesome dropdown aerial to followup stuffs, so I like that point.
*** CG's can happen....
+** Everyone likes this stage...



I'll add later...

all bold are my edits from my previous statements.

 

[PSI.kick]

Disclaimer: I'm most likely not correct about a lot of these points, but since its discussion i might as well throw them out there...
battle field:
Them being on platforms is good! this allows approaching with a fair or a uair from the front/under to be a viable option (if i'm wrong then say so)
Like eagleye said you can pkt juggle all day here, but leading into that pkt2 can be tricky, if you're on a platform while pkt you can lead into some major surface to air stuff which can be cool, but on ground you have to work around the platforms.
Mindgames are amazing here if you set yourself up right, i've gotten a lot of kills by making them think i canceled pkt on a platform (when camera is close) and came around to pkt2 their faces, but yeah definitely use your mindgaming skillz here.
mainly what makes BF interesting is the platforms, which can either be great for us or really bad for us, I don't know too much about this stage so i'll end with this: just use common sense.

Edit: another good thing about this stage IMO is that the pkt juggling game is alot safer since you can cancel the pkt at any time on the platforms as you chase them into the air, on normal stages this leaves you wide open because you can't cancel it.

 

[Dajayman]

Ah, stage discussion.

The worst part about this stage, and my only real beef with it, is this stage limits our PK game. Platforms stop potetnial PKT loops/mindgames, limits PKT into PKT2 midgames, limits FH PKF use, and limits punishing landings with PKF. The only benefit platform gives to our PK game is easier uncharged PK Flashes, not worth the tradeoff of the things I just mentioned.

The platforms should be taken advantaged of. We can abuse people on platforms when we're below them with sh fair, nair (with the hitbox behind him, it hits slightly higher up than the hitbox in front), and uair. Ness sh is the perfect height where his hitboxes hit above the platform but his hurtboxes remain below the platform (except uair, use that cautiously). Ness doesn't have solutions for characters abusing him below a platform, our only semi-good option is sh dair, so don't stay above characters on platforms.

Platforms make getting onstage much easier. A simple ledgehopped dj lands us on the side platforms perfectly, our dj height lands us with no air hangtime, so we can buffer a move off the platform right away for our convinience.

Platforms aside, BF is smaller than FD, so take advantage of the easier time getting kills and be wary of getting killed easier as well. It's very easy to recover on BF because of it's simple ledge shape and it has no gimmicks (lips, tilting, etc.). BF is pretty easy to stage spike on because of it's edge shape, yoyo spikes are easiest on this stage but nair/bair are very reliable as well.

 

[Jiffyboob]

Ummmm... oh yeah. PK Thunder can hit up through the lip of the ledge on this stage to cause a PKT2 if you are right by the edge. It's kind of a gimmick but should still be mentioned.

 

[Neon Ness]

The worst part about this stage, and my only real beef with it, is this stage limits our PK game. Platforms stop potetnial PKT loops/mindgames, limits PKT into PKT2 midgames, limits FH PKF use, and limits punishing landings with PKF. The only benefit platform gives to our PK game is easier uncharged PK Flashes, not worth the tradeoff of the things I just mentioned.

Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I've seen people post about BF being bad for Ness' PKT game but... I dunno, I'm sort of starting to disagree with that.

Because you can still send PKT through platforms from below without it getting canceled. So if you if really wanted to loop it counterclockwise, just make sure you're looping it on the left half of the platform so that when the PKT is traveling up it's going through the platform.

Likewise, if you want a clockwise loop, it needs to be looped on the right half of the platform... so that when PKT is going up in the circular motion it's travelling through it, and when it's going down it's to the right and not getting canceled.

I guess I don't see platforms as being too limiting. I can't think of a reason why you would need to send PKT downwards toward a platform anyway.

Also, I would think platforms help with PKT2. Since you can loop PKT from below platforms, it pretty much gives you 180 degrees of freedom for PKT2 angles. As opposed to standing on a solid stage like FD where it's impossible to send yourself straight up/at steep angles from a standing position.

How does it limit PKF? I mean I'm not saying it definitely doesn't, I just want to hear how you or others think it does. At the very least platforms allow you to send horizontal PKF on an elevated plane.

Tbh though I only pick this stage for the music lol, I don't know if it really helps Ness that much. I've seen a few Snake players complain about this stage being ehh for Snake though, not sure how much truth there is in it. Guess it's more of an individual thing than a universal truth.

 

[Dajayman]

Let's just say it all depends on positioning for the PKT. The fact that you need to be standing in those spots you have above (Did you make those pics? They're pretty cool. XD) already limits where you can use PKT. If you use PKT in the middle of the stage then what are you going to do (Draw a pic for that. :3)? Sometimes you just want to juggle, and proper juggling requires following an opponents air drifting with PKT, which you need to loop and snake in order to prevent defensive options. With platforms in the way, PKT loops get severly limited, either because you have to position PKT perfectly like in your pic, while the opponent may not directly by the loop. Or you have to loop PKT around a platform, which eats up time in those 2 seconds that PKT can be active.

Also it's pretty hard to floor cancel PKT2. Look at your above pics, there's little manueving room to make PKT2 hit the top of your head and you obviously can't send PKT from above the platform. Sure it's possible, but the chances of accidently initiating PKT2 (or even worse, an inverse PKT2 towards offstage...) increase greatly.

While I agree platforms help with SAM (surface to air missile) PKT2s but unless you have a tailwhip assist in landing PKT2 or you do some hardcore mindgames SAM PKT is pretty easy to see coming and all an opponent has to do is airdodge.

Platforms to me limit my PKF game. My two main ways of landing PKF is FH PKF and punishing a landing with PKF. The places you can use FH PKF is very limited, only the middle part and the very edges. And it's pretty obvious how the platforms disrupt punishing landings with PKF, instead I have to punish their platform landings with sh aerials from below the platforms. Using PKF on a BF platform isn't too useful, BF platforms are too far above normal ground and will only hit a character short hopping. It might be able to hit a standing Bowser, Snake, Ganon, DK, but I doubt it. I'll test this later.

 

[Yink]

Battlefield is one of my favorite neutrals for a good reason. It makes it easier for you to stay in the air and not get grabbed as easily too. There's nothing too hard about it.

You can stay away from someone if you need to, find some space and it's a bit easier to mix things up WITH the platforms.

While it does limit some PKT game, it also gives you gimmicks with PKF and ledge shenanigans, such as Yo-Yo spikes and dash attack spikes.

I think the platforms usually help you rather than hurt you.

 

[M]

Anyone else find fair extremely useful for sharking people off of platforms?

 

[Dajayman]

Fair is amazing at sharking through platforms. It's my favorite thing to do on BF.

I think you're all getting the wrong impression. I never said I don't like BF, I just said my one beef with it is that it limits our PK game. I love BF a lot, much better than FD or SV. Just be sure to avoid BF against Marth/MK and you're good.

 

[Neon Ness]

Didn't mean to gang up on you lol. :< What about this stage do you think favors Marth/MK?

Also, I would like BF more if platform cancelling worked on nonmoving platforms.

 

[Yink]

Anyone else find fair extremely useful for sharking people off of platforms?

Yes, and if you're fast enough you might get a jablock with it too. I also like to use usmash through platforms.

 

[Dajayman]

Marth/MK will have a much easier time beating us because their A moveset is much better than ours and their B moveset won't be hindered unlike ours. Our PK game helps a lot verus those two, which is why BF would be pretty bad place to take them. This is why I'd rather take them to FD or SV instead.

 

[Neon Ness]

Sooo I guess Battlefield is done.

Actually we never really went over what characters to avoid fighting here.

I will say that Ness mirrors are stupidly fun on this stage for whatever reason.

 

[Eagleye893]

If a list of characters to avoid bringing here, I'll assist:

MK,
Falco,
Diddy,
Snake,
DK (not really, but I say so),
Marth,
Kirby,
Maybe Fox,
DDD (while you have the platforms, they don't favor you as much),
Pika,
Wario? (no clue...),
Lucas?
...
Basically anyone. xD

The stage is okay or bad for ness, while it is good for many other characters. I say don't CP this stage for anyone, unless it's your favorite.

 

[PSI.kick]

brinstar!!!
Don't worry, im kidding. Lets talk of YI:

I DONT LIKE THIS STAGE.

The end...
i'll edit this soon with a healthy wall of text, but i have a paper to write atm... lol

 

[Dajayman]

I'd rather take a Falco, Kirby, and Fox to BF than FD...

YI is awful. Just awful. Almost as bad as green Ness.

 

[Eagleye893]

Yeah... but those are the better of two extremes, at least when looking at what are starter stages (... currently).

YI...

NEVER get your PKT eaten by shy guys... I swear they fly offstage and right at me in order to gimp me.
PKfire destroyed.
Stage hates PKT2 recovery too.
PKT can be eaten by ghost...

I hate it...

 

[PSI.kick]

absolutely loathe this map. My ness instincts have completely blocked it from my databanks preventing me from even playing this as olimar, it's actually not a bad stage for him.
HATE it.
hate IT.
grr.
but yeah support ghosts are freaking gay. My suggestion for anytime you need to use pkt to recover, get away from the stage first. if you are too close, your pkt can get eaten by the sides >.<

 

[Dajayman]

Support ghost is gayer than 3 Metaknights spamming tornado against you with team attack off.

Randall the cloud and Yoshi's Island are waaaaay better.

 

[M]

Are there any characters who Ness actually does want to fight on Battlefield?

 

[Neon Ness]

If a list of characters to avoid bringing here, I'll assist:

MK,
Falco,
Diddy,
Snake,
DK (not really, but I say so),
Marth,
Kirby,
Maybe Fox,
DDD (while you have the platforms, they don't favor you as much),
Pika,
Wario? (no clue...),
Lucas?
...
Basically anyone. xD

The stage is okay or bad for ness, while it is good for many other characters. I say don't CP this stage for anyone, unless it's your favorite.

Please tell us why we should be afraid of said characters on BF, a la Dajayman.

 

[Dajayman]

Those characters, except maybe Diddy and Wario (should've mentioned them too), all have really annoying platform abuse.

DK and DDD are big enough to abuse their strong utilt/usmash under us and their bairs + DDD's fair can also hit us from their sh to the side.

Pikachu can start annoying uair chains of two or three there as well as annoying us with fh fair. Against the better Pikachus they can QAC on the platforms for great stage mobility, which is also annoying. I'd rather take Pikachu to FD for less stage mobility and the fact that he can't really use his projectile on us anyways thanks to Magnet and Magnet cancel.

Marth and MK have swords, their utilts and sh aerials all poke through platforms and MK's upb and tornado are also annoying at interrupting our landing.

Snake can set traps on platforms for more stage control. Since explosives hit below platforms as well, well tossed 'nades can cover the platform and the ground below it which is sick. Plus utilt hits us above and below platforms. Seriously, Snake's utilt can hit us BELOW platforms. Man f*** that utilt...

Lucas and Kirby are annoying with their amazing sh uair abuse, and Lucas gains a free usmash if he has enough time to set it up below us since that usmash has a ridiculous spread. I recommend avoid landing near platforms at kill percents if he has time to setup usmash. His utilt also pokes a little through as well. These two aren't actually that bad I suppose, it really depends on if I'm feeling FD or BF for them.

As for any other characters I can't think of any. Those are the characters who do better with platforms than the open space of FD. Falco for example can use bair, nair, and uair through platforms to abuse us and it gets annoying, but would you really want to take him to FD or SV (FD Jr.)? Basically when it comes down to it, ask yourself if you'd rather take someone to FD or BF, hopefully it'll happen in the stagestrikes.

We should talk about SV, since actually this is the stage that always gets picked in stagestriking. As much as I like BF, I'd probably never cp it if Brinstar and Delfino are available. And most people given the choice between BF and SV will pick SV if they originally wanted FD (we have to use a strike for YI, and chances are that other neutral (Lylat most likely) is already struck). YI isn't really worth talking about, this should be our priority strike and ban (I'd rather take Falco, Diddy, and Icies to FD than YI).

 

[Eagleye893]

^basically what dajay said.

 

[Dajayman]

About Kirby, I'd rather take Kirby to BF than FD/SV to prevent air camping. I almost forgot about that. So scratch Kirby off that list because air camping is 10x more annoying than uair pokes through platforms.

 

[Eagleye893]

Here's what you do:

If in striking....

If your opponent strikes something apart from YI(B), strike the second stage first... don't assume that they won't strike YI(B), because your opponent could like it as much as you... meaning not at all.
first strike YI(B) unless you are VERY good at the stage. That is ness' worst stage...
Second strike, what Dajay said; Smashville is easily ness' best starter, as the stage doesn't have a ton of stuff under it and you have that moving platform; PS1 is my favorite stage, as the main stage is very similar to other flat stages, but with an open middle (except directly under the stage's middle), and every other part does just enough to favor ness overall. (windmill gives a thing to potentially set up jab locks, which are easy to get for ness; Forest has uneven ground, but that powers dash attack immensely (YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW GOOD IT IS!!); mountain part is super in ness' favor, as you can camp from the center OR pressure with PKT from not center; I like fire better than mtn, just because....)
If your tournament has more Starters, basically strike FD, BF, YI... none are particularly great for ness, and any potential starters below the initial 5 are mainly in favor of ness (lylat is good, you just need to know the stage).

 

[Dajayman]

You don't need to include (B) by the YI because YI(M) is never going to be a cp, let alone a starter stage. What Eagle said about YI is true, most people hate that stage. Only some characters like DK, Wolf, Olimar would actually consider going to that stage. Even then those characters' mains may still not like YI. I know Kain doesn't like YI and when I used Olimar I still hated YI (that was my Ness bias though )

PS1, unless you're in AiB ladder, is never a starter. Usually the five starters are FD, BF, SV, YI, and LC. Most people don't ever go there anyways.

Lylat Cruise is a good anti-FD stage actually. Since the stage tilts and has better platform placement, this stage prevents camping greatly. I reccommend taking Falco here actually, just position yourself at the lower part of the stage tilt and you no longer have to fear lasers. Don't take Olimar here, trust me. LC was my favorite stage as Olimar, tilting does not affect his grabs and his fsmash becomes better at the higher ground of a tilt.

 

[PSI.kick]

Oli's grabs are better coming from low ground as well.
Yeah what you said about ness bias for YI completely relates to me lol, I like ps1 for basically the same reasons that eagle said, although i've never really thought about how hills affect dash attack... hmm... Also SV is a very well rounded stage, but bad for a lot of matchups. Frankly, if you are facing a diddy, he has 3 of the 5 main starters as some of his best stages in general, which i think is pretty unfair, but that's another topic, basically striking this stage is pretty dumb as it is not inherently a bad stage for ness, just some bad MU's there. I will usually ban YI then from there I just do what I feel like doing, sometimes FD or BF or whatever. I will usually keep SV on unless im fighting an mk or something like that.

We should talk more about striking since it's relative to the stage discussion topic (and the part about me not knowing anything lol)

 

[Dajayman]

Olimar's grab follows a slope, meaning that his grab, unlike everybody else's, won't be affected by a slope.

For stage strikes I just use my strikes for their prefered starter (BF or FD) first, then proceed to strike SV, which leaves either YI/LC (most people hate both these stages and get rid of one) and FD/BF (whichever one I didn't strike first). Everybody always picks to strike the hated YI/LC and I get to go where I wanted.

 

[Bartolon]

Battlefield is a pretty good stage if u don't fight characters with too much range.
When people are on a platform and u are below them, u can shieldpoke them with uair/fair. They are always in a bad position above us. The stage is kinda small, so it's harder to space your moves well because of the platforms. imo it's a decent starter for us butwe got better options like FD,SV.
It's good on some occasions vs very few characters.

Who not to take here?

Marth, he's a beast here, really.
We don't have much space to run away, space our moves and punish him, most of his attacks will probably his if he spaces well..

Meta knight.. have my doubts about this though.
When we're on a platform we are on a really bad postion (and offstage ofc ;P)
He has many options to punish us, and he can just stand there and wait on us to make a move, just like stated above, less space to space your moves what is very important against MK.

^

This are the most important chars I can think of atm ;O

 

[Dajayman]

Barty, sh nair can hit opponents above us on platforms as well. It'll be a weak nair hit from the front and it'll be a strong nair hit from the back. Though for shield poking fair definitely works the best, while uair has the most shield push but exposes our head, nair has a decent shield push but it's much safer than uair.

 

[Bartolon]

Yeah forgot about the nair part.. I guess ;O

 

[Dajayman]

Nair is my favorite aerial. I have to make sure it gets mentioned. :3

 

[Neon Ness]

I love nairing shields from below platforms on BF. If they're too slow to react it sets up for a jab/dtilt lock.