Tech Chasing With Samus

[K@ta]

Hi fellow Sami! Im Kata a Puertorrican Samus main and Im currently ranked 2nd in PR.

My question for you guys is:

Is it possible to react to cover most tech options on reaction after a knockdown on spacies? ( Usual scenario is Dtilt knockdown )

 

[Mervis]

I've read somewhere that Plup said if he lands a downsmash on a space animal, he should be able to end the stock. I'm sure it's difficult but Plup claims it can be done. I'm short on the entirety of it but it's apparently doable.

 

[K@ta]

Yeah I remember he was quoted for saying he should be killing after landing a dtilt on spacies.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Average reaction time is 250 ms or 15 frames when you convert it to 60 frames/sec. So, to be able to cover a tech option on reaction, the option in question has to be longer than 15 frames and you need an attack that’s fast enough to hit your opponent in the remaining cooldown of the tech option after the 15 frames.

Knowing this let’s consider some options (we’ll assume fox is the character teching for now for now):


Fox tech away from you -
Tech forward/back have the same frame data so it’ll be more relevant to consider fox tech relative to your position.

Fox’s tech roll is 40 frames so you need an option that can hit him in 25 frames (tech roll [40 frames] - reaction time [15 frames] = 25 frames). However, tech away puts him outside your immediate range so you need a movement option to. Potential options that can cover this include:

- wavedash->dsmash/ftilt/dtilt (20 frames) (a wavedash is 14 frames and the attacks listed here come out on frame 6)

- wavedash->fsmash (24 frames) (fsmash is frame 10)

- wavedash->jab (17 frames) (jab is frame 3)

- dash->dash attack (8-17 frames) (dash attack hits on frame 7 and you need at least 1 frame of dashing)

Fox tech behind you -
depending on di you won’t have to use a movement option so any ground attack under 25 frames will hit, lol. Most notably teching behind you opens up grab as an option (grab is frame 18).

Also, short hop->bair is a potential option coming out on frame 12 (jumpsquat is 3 frames and bair is frame 9).


Getup-Attack
Getup-Attack lasts 49 frames so you need an option faster than 34 frames. Any option that works on tech behind or tech away works here. Note you have to time it so that you hit them after the hitbox ends at frame 26.

This probably opens up aerials as a punish but I don’t know how many frames it’d take to short hop and land the aerial.

Getup-Rolls
Getup-roll takes 35 frames so we need an option that’s faster than 20 frames:

- grab (frame 18)

- wavedash->jab (17 frames)

- dash->dash attack (8-17 frames)

- wavedash->dsmash/ftilt/dtilt (20 frames)

An aerial could work here as well, depending on spacing and how fast samus aerial movement interpreted in frame data is.

Closing Thoughts

In the end this is theory craft. To verify this, we’d also need to account for the endlag of whatever move forced the knockdown, how long it took the spacey to hit the ground and if your wavedash is long enough to reach them in the most extreme cases of di (guys can we be the new 20GX??? Samus: 20SA-X). Personally, I’ve hit wavedash->dsmash a lot. I've seen Darrel punish with fsmash and dtilt. Hugs often tech-chases with ftilt.

That being said the frame data is promising considering that some of these punishes have lots of free frames even after taking reaction time into account.


SCIENCCCCCCCE

Edit- I don't know the frame data for missed tech, so the missed tech options are probably more punishable than what's presented here.

 

[Mervis]

SCIENCCCCCCCE

You are so thorough it's glorious. Don't ever stop please.

 

[K@ta]

This is exactly what I wanted Bill, huge thanks.

Of course this math is subject to many variables but after hours of practicing this in 20XX on Final against Fox it seems plausible with enough practice.

The hardest so far to cover is probably tech away and behind of course but still doable. No techs are easy to cover, on low percents you can dtilt to reset the situation or Dsmash on higher percents for an edgeguard situation and possibly a kill.

Mastering maximun wavedash lenght is crucial for techs away and roll away. Possibly punishing with dtilt or dsmash. Ftilt is also very good when it starts knocking down or forces and edguard situation too.

On regards to the 20GX comparison well, Samus will never be the best character or a top tier in my humble opinion. She is a high tier and still hasnt been optimized ( or any other character in that regard) so theres still a lot of room for her to shine. Plup by no means maxed her out and Hugo has been showing improvement recently.

As a last statement I have to say Im kinda dissapointed that dont ask these type of questions enough. In that regard Bill you are right, we should work together more like the 20GX guys.

 

[Blazing]

Hi fellow Sami! Im Blazing a Puertorrican Samus main And Im currently not ranked in P.R.

My question for you guys is:

How do I get into the rankings?

 

[Mervis]

How do we get 20SA-X started? I'll put fourth effort if someone leads the way.

 

[Laser_kirby_007]

My question for you guys is:

How do I get into the rankings?

Hi fellow Sami! Im LK a Puertorrican Samus main And Im currently not in P.R.
You get ranked by going to tournaments.

 

[Mervis]

Hi fellow Sami! Im LK a Puertorrican Samus main And Im currently not in P.R.
You get ranked by going to tournaments.

Wait LK? We have an Laser Kirby who mains Peach in Dallas. That's not you is it?

 

[K@ta]

Lol Yeah thats him

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

How do we get 20SA-X started? I'll put fourth effort if someone leads the way.

We'll start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93nEP8gONbM

We would need to examine every tech situation on every character using the methods above (while remembering to account for di angles and percent)

 

[Laser_kirby_007]

Wait LK? We have an Laser Kirby who mains Peach in Dallas. That's not you is it?

lol yeah it's me. I'm originally from PR

 

[Mervis]

lol yeah it's me. I'm originally from PR

You little trickster. You aren't a Samus main!

 

[Excel_Zero]

Hi fellow Sami! Im Excel_Zero a Puertorrican Samus main and Im currently ranked 1st in PR.

My question for you guys is:

Is it possible that Kata would listen to my advice? I've been trying to teach him l33t samus stuff like shieldrop > superwavedash and extendur but he just doesn't listen.

 

[Mervis]

Ok is there a joke that I'm missing? I feel like an idiot

 

[Tawkos]

Hi fellow Sami! I'm Tawkos a Puertorrican Samus main and I'm currently ranked 6th in PR.


My question for you is: This isn't a question, I main fox, and Kata is asking for tools vs me cus I hit em with some dank multishines till he cries.

 

[Mervis]

We'll start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93nEP8gONbM

We would need to examine every tech situation on every character using the methods above (while remembering to account for di angles and percent)

Uhhhhhhhh that's a LOT for 1 person to cover. I think I have the basics down for a frame by frame breakdown on 20xx. I think we should start smaller.

Hi fellow Sami! I'm Tawkos a Puertorrican Samus main and I'm currently ranked 6th in PR.


My question for you is: This isn't a question, I main fox, and Kata is asking for tools vs me cus I hit em with some dank multishines till he cries.

Up-b OOS followed up with an Up-b OOS. If that doesn't work, try Up-b OOS.

 

[K@ta]

Ignore them Mervis lol, those are fellow players from PR xD.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Uhhhhhhhh that's a LOT for 1 person to cover. I think I have the basics down for a frame by frame breakdown on 20xx. I think we should start smaller.

hmmmmm... If people could start figuring out when we are at advantage in tech chase situations against fox that'd be cool (dthrow, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, dair and jab2 are common tech set ups)

 

[pizzacato]

Hi fellow Sami! Im Pizzacato a Mexican Samus main And Im currently ranked 2nd best Samus in Texas. next to Poot.

My question for you guys is:

y dont u guyz get gud ??

 

[Mervis]

Hi fellow Sami! Im Pizzacato a Mexican Samus main And Im currently ranked 2nd best Samus in Texas. next to Poot.

When are you coming back so I can bop you? I lvld up to like lvl 27 so prepare to die.

 

[pizzacato]

When are you coming back so I can bop you? I lvld up to like lvl 27 so prepare to die.

lol I hope you know I haven't stopped either, def lvl 53. If my avatar says we can do it, you best bet I can do it. lol

 

[Mervis]

lol I hope you know I haven't stopped either, def lvl 53. If my avatar says we can do it, you best bet I can do it. lol

Yeah but I've been training in the BEST PM REGION IN THE WORLD

That mean's I've become worse at melee. I don't even touch pm.

 

[GoomySmash]

hmmmmm... If people could start figuring out when we are at advantage in tech chase situations against fox that'd be cool (dthrow, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, dair and jab2 are common tech set ups)

Samus is always at an advantage when any character is teching on a platform and she's in the middle of it. Downsmash always works. You can even charge it until they land. All you need to do is wait until they hit the platform and if they tech in place or tech away, delay the D-smash by a fraction of a second. If they miss tech or tech roll behind, release the downsmash immediately. (EDIT: You don't actually need to delay the D-smash. Simply waiting the normal human reaction time of 15-20 frames and then D-smashing will cover every option including missed tech. Basically as soon as they hit the ground, regardless of which option they choose, release downsmash on reaction. Also certain chars like pikachu have their tech in place invincibility last 23 frames, so if you have reaction times faster than 17 frames, you just need to delay very slightly)
It doesn't always work when you're facing away from where they land on the platform. You need to be facing the direction they start the tech animation. If a character lands in front of you in tumble, downsmash, always. Platform AIs make this much more viable as well. I've started incorporating this in to my game and it works wonders. Downtilt -> run and AI to platform -> guaranteed downsmash coverage is actually surprisingly easy and effective. Getting platform AI down is the hardest part, but doublejumping gives you more leniency although it makes your platform AI take a few frames longer, which doesn't even matter.

 

[K@ta]

Samus is always at an advantage when any character is teching on a platform and she's in the middle of it. Downsmash always works. You can even charge it until they land. All you need to do is wait until they hit the platform and if they tech in place or tech away, delay the D-smash by a fraction of a second. If they miss tech or tech roll behind, release the downsmash immediately. It doesn't always work when you're facing away from where they land on the platform. You need to be facing the direction they start the tech animation. If a character lands in front of you in tumble, downsmash, always. Platform AIs make this much more viable as well. I've started incorporating this in to my game and it works wonders. Downtilt -> run and AI to platform -> guaranteed downsmash coverage is actually surprisingly easy and effective. Getting platform AI down is the hardest part, but doublejumping gives you more leniency although it makes your platform AI take a few frames longer, which doesn't even matter.

I actually had this idea a long time ago but never sat down to test it. Good to know it can be applied.

 

[Litt]

Except it doesnt cover get up attack

 

[K@ta]

Except it doesnt cover get up attack

You are correcr sir. Though that can be played around certainly.

 

[Litt]

You are correcr sir. Though that can be played around certainly.

The options I found for reading the get up attack during the ai, are shield drop fair to rising fair, or up air to rising fair, bomb OoS into wd down jab pressure or dtilt, up b, or grab

 

[343]

Except it doesnt cover get up attack

is it possible to get the dsmash off to hit the missed tech before they can getup attack?

 

[GoomySmash]

is it possible to get the dsmash off to hit the missed tech before they can getup attack?

Yes. Missed tech lasts 26 frames for Fox (I'm not sure if it's different for other characters, but I imagine it's the same). Downsmash comes out in 6 frames (4 if you're already charging it). That gives you 20 - 22 frames of reaction time, so yes, it does cover every missed tech option unless you get there too late. The average human reaction time is somewhere around 15 frames, so this even works with people like me with slightly below average reaction times.

 

[343]

^so you're assuming that fulljump AI or whatever will put Samus on the platform before Fox/whoever even lands?

 

[Litt]

^so you're assuming that fulljump AI or whatever will put Samus on the platform before Fox/whoever even lands?

Depends on which platform they DI towards and tech on, like the lower 2 plats on yoshis they can jump before landing on it, or choose to land and then tech, however im pretty sure all plats on battlefield will be a forced tech. Honestly, a dtilt would be a better combo move off a tech read that the dsmash, the benefit of the dsmash is to cover all the tech options of in place, away and towards

 

[GoomySmash]

Honestly, a dtilt would be a better combo move off a tech read that the dsmash, the benefit of the dsmash is to cover all the tech options of in place, away and towards

Depends on whether you want to be risky and try and extend the combo or want to be safe and possibly put them in an edgeguard/another platform tech chase situation. Personally, I feel downsmash is the best option every time. You can usually get a lot off of a downsmash.

 

[Litt]

Depends on whether you want to be risky and try and extend the combo or want to be safe and possibly put them in an edgeguard/another platform tech chase situation. Personally, I feel downsmash is the best option every time. You can usually get a lot off of a downsmash.

No option is the best one every time, that is just poor thinking, it is a good option that covers most tech choices the majority of the time, but it is by no means the best option every time, and you shouldn't post your such ignorant crap.

 

[GoomySmash]

No option is the best one every time, that is just poor thinking, it is a good option that covers most tech choices the majority of the time, but it is by no means the best option every time, and you shouldn't post your such ignorant crap.

I'm going to have to politely and respectfully disagree with you. This is one of the rare situations where 1 move actually covers every single option. Not most options, literally every single one.

For Fox (and most other characters):

Missed tech - Frames 0 - 25 are vulnerable (can getup attack on 26)
Tech in place - Frames 0 - 20 are invincible, 20 - 25 are vulnerable (can attack on frame 26)
Tech right/left - Frames 0 - 20 are invincible, 20 - 39 are vulnerable (can attack on frame 40)

There are no other tech options.

The overlapping vulnerability frames for all of the options are frames 20 - 25. Downsmash comes out on frame 6, or frame 4 if you're already charging it. Let's assume you're already charging it, so if you want to cover every option, you would release the downsmash somewhere between frame 16 and frame 21 after they hit the ground (16 - 21 frames is approximately human reaction time). If they tech roll behind you, the second hit of downsmash comes out on frame 14, or frame 12 if you're already charging it. If you release between frames 16 and 21, the second hit of downsmash will hit somewhere between frames 28 and 33, and the Fox/other character will be vulnerable between 20 and 39, so the second hit of downsmash will hit.

Again, if you want to go for a hard read you could do D-tilt or grab or Fsmash or Ftilt or whatever, but if you want to do 1 move that will cover every single option 100% of the time, then do downsmash. And again, this is only on a platform when you're in the middle of it and are already in the position to downsmash when they land on the ground, and you need to be facing towards them. Otherwise, it's not guaranteed.

In this specific case I would say downsmash is not necessarily the "best" option, but it is the most guaranteed.

 

[Litt]

I'm going to have to politely and respectfully disagree with you. This is one of the rare situations where 1 move actually covers every single option. Not most options, literally every single one.

For Fox (and most other characters):

Missed tech - Frames 0 - 25 are vulnerable (can getup attack on 26)
Tech in place - Frames 0 - 20 are invincible, 20 - 25 are vulnerable (can attack on frame 26)
Tech right/left - Frames 0 - 20 are invincible, 20 - 39 are vulnerable (can attack on frame 40)

There are no other tech options.

The overlapping vulnerability frames for all of the options are frames 20 - 25. Downsmash comes out on frame 6, or frame 4 if you're already charging it. Let's assume you're already charging it, so if you want to cover every option, you would release the downsmash somewhere between frame 16 and frame 21 after they hit the ground (16 - 21 frames is approximately human reaction time). If they tech roll behind you, the second hit of downsmash comes out on frame 14, or frame 12 if you're already charging it. If you release between frames 16 and 21, the second hit of downsmash will hit somewhere between frames 28 and 33, and the Fox/other character will be vulnerable between 20 and 39, so the second hit of downsmash will hit.

Again, if you want to go for a hard read you could do D-tilt or grab or Fsmash or Ftilt or whatever, but if you want to do 1 move that will cover every single option 100% of the time, then do downsmash. And again, this is only on a platform when you're in the middle of it and are already in the position to downsmash when they land on the ground, and you need to be facing towards them. Otherwise, it's not guaranteed.

In this specific case I would say downsmash is not necessarily the "best" option, but it is the most guaranteed.

NO **** SHIRLOCK... its a very good option... so is dair because it covers the width of most platforms... however D SMASH DOES NOT COVER GET UP ATTACK... ergo it is not the best option every single time nor does it cover every option, which means its not guaranteed in the least bit... don't generalize, good players recongize habits like the **** you are spewing out to be fact, its not fact its a rule of thumb, and if you use that rule of thumb every single time, your thumbs are going to get broken and then up smashed

 

[GoomySmash]

(...) D SMASH DOES NOT COVER GET UP ATTACK... ergo it is not the best option every single time nor does it cover every option, which means its not guaranteed in the least bit (...)

In fact, this is where you are mistaken. It does cover get up attack because it covers missed tech before you can do anything. Go ahead and test it for yourself in debug menu. As I said in my previous post, missed tech vulnerability lasts from frames 0 - 25. You can start getup attack on frame 26 and not any earlier. If you don't believe me, please try it for yourself.

1.) Go into debug menu
2.) Be in the middle of a platform with fox right in front of you at 50%ish and uptilt him
3.) Have him miss the tech in front of you
4.) Wait 14 - 19 frames and then downsmash (or charge it and release on frames 16 - 21)
5.) Try and have fox spam getup attack, he will not be able to until frame 26
6.) See that Samus can indeed, cover getup attack and all missed tech options by downsmashing on reaction to a character missing the tech on a platform in front of you

(...) don't generalize, good players recongize habits like the **** you are spewing out to be fact, its not fact its a rule of thumb (...)

I do believe this frame data has proven what I've claimed to be fact.

 

[krazyzyko]

Hello fellow Sami!
My name is Zyko, a puertorican Fox main and I'm currently ranked 9th in PR.
Just wanted you to know how much l loathe this thread with passion.

 

[GoomySmash]

Aaaaaaaannnnnyways I want to say I really like the idea of making Samus the new 20GX. I think that Dash -> wavedash could increase Samuses range when tech chasing and make reaction tech chases more doable. I'll try expanding upon @ BillNyeTheSamusGuy 's frame data later.