Tech Chasing With Samus

[Litt]

In fact, this is where you are mistaken. It does cover get up attack because it covers missed tech before you can do anything. Go ahead and test it for yourself in debug menu. As I said in my previous post, missed tech vulnerability lasts from frames 0 - 25. You can start getup attack on frame 26 and not any earlier. If you don't believe me, please try it for yourself.

1.) Go into debug menu
2.) Be in the middle of a platform with fox right in front of you at 50%ish and uptilt him
3.) Have him miss the tech in front of you
4.) Wait 14 - 19 frames and then downsmash (or charge it and release on frames 16 - 21)
5.) Try and have fox spam getup attack, he will not be able to until frame 26
6.) See that Samus can indeed, cover getup attack and all missed tech options by downsmashing on reaction to a character missing the tech on a platform in front of you



I do believe this frame data has proven what I've claimed to be fact.

That assumes... you can get to the plat in time to punish missed tech with jump AI dsmash... top plat... zero chance of that happening, and slim to no chance that happening on dreamland plats, so again, not the end all of option select, there may be instances where it covers everything, but they are slim picking and you might as well throw some variety into your game

In fact, this is where you are mistaken. It does cover get up attack because it covers missed tech before you can do anything. Go ahead and test it for yourself in debug menu. As I said in my previous post, missed tech vulnerability lasts from frames 0 - 25. You can start getup attack on frame 26 and not any earlier. If you don't believe me, please try it for yourself.

1.) Go into debug menu
2.) Be in the middle of a platform with fox right in front of you at 50%ish and uptilt him
3.) Have him miss the tech in front of you
4.) Wait 14 - 19 frames and then downsmash (or charge it and release on frames 16 - 21)
5.) Try and have fox spam getup attack, he will not be able to until frame 26
6.) See that Samus can indeed, cover getup attack and all missed tech options by downsmashing on reaction to a character missing the tech on a platform in front of you



I do believe this frame data has proven what I've claimed to be fact.

It is not fact in the least bit because you are claiming it for every tech situation on a platform... which is only the case when you can AI and they actually land... on the yoshis lower 2 plats they can jump out of the throw before landing on either side plats, and on the top you dont have time to AI to punish the tech that way... so one you are wrong there.... dreamland, nope no chance on top platform there... and the side plats, may not give you enough time because of their height... if they get up in place tech then shine.... this is really only applicable on battlefield, and again its just one ****ing stage out of the 6 out there, which you claim is the best option period... you are wrong, stop spouting nonsense, if it was as good as you say it was, you would be a top notch player doing this all the time, but wait, you aren't and this tech certainly has its limitations so seriously, learn what is actually guaranteed, and what is contingent upon stage. Also I have tried all of this myself, and know for a fact that its not the best hands down option... you can react to different techs for more optimal punshes and combo potential, than just spamming dsmash after an AI.

Aaaaaaaannnnnyways I want to say I really like the idea of making Samus the new 20GX. I think that Dash -> wavedash could increase Samuses range when tech chasing and make reaction tech chases more doable. I'll try expanding upon @ BillNyeTheSamusGuy 's frame data later.

I have tried it... the only stage where this is applicable is battlefield, dreamland the plats are too high to get there before they can tech in place and shine, and yoshis the lower 2 plats too low so they can jump before landing from an up throw, there are few other instances where you get your opponent to tech on a platform other than up throw, those other instances being dtilt, dash attack, and fair really, and all of which have other better alternatives given the right situation for more damage, more knockback, or more combo potential, so no, stop spouting your nonsense, say its good, say what options it covers, but by no means advice anyone to do it all the time because it is situationally limited

 

[GoomySmash]

That assumes... you can get to the plat in time to punish missed tech with jump AI dsmash... top plat... zero chance of that happening, and slim to no chance that happening on dreamland plats (...)

Yes, this tech is situational. I never stated otherwise. Again, the criteria for this tech to work is that you are in the correct position (middle of the platform facing the direction they land) by the time they hit the platform. How you get to that position is entirely situational.

there are few other instances where you get your opponent to tech on a platform other than up throw, those other instances being dtilt, dash attack, and fair really, and all of which have other better alternatives given the right situation for more damage, more knockback, or more combo potential, so no, stop spouting your nonsense, say its good, say what options it covers, but by no means advice anyone to do it all the time because it is situationally limited

Took the words right out of my mouth. Yes, you can get to that situation by dtilt, dash attack, fair, upthrow on battlefield, and a few other situations (one of them being downthrow on floatier characters such as Marth). It doesn't matter how you get to that situation, all I'm saying is that downsmash covers every tech option. I never claimed upthrow was the only way. All I'm saying is that in this specific situation, downsmash is guaranteed. It may not lead to the most damage, and there may be other reaction tech chase options.

 

[Litt]

Aaaaaaaannnnnyways I want to say I really like the idea of making Samus the new 20GX. I think that Dash -> wavedash could increase Samuses range when tech chasing and make reaction tech chases more doable. I'll try expanding upon @ BillNyeTheSamusGuy 's frame data later.

I have tried it... the only stage where this is applicable is battlefield, dreamland the plats are too high to get there before they can tech in place and shine, and yoshis the lower 2 plats too low so they can jump before landing from an up throw, there are few other instances where you get your opponent to tech on a platform other than up throw, those other instances being dtilt, dash attack, and fair really, and all of which have other better alternatives given the right situation for more damage, more knockback, or more combo potential, so no, stop spouting your nonsense, say its good, say what options it covers, but by no means advice anyone to do it all the time because it is situationally limited

Yes, this tech is situational. I never stated otherwise. Again, the criteria for this tech to work is that you are in the correct position (middle of the platform facing the direction they land) by the time they hit the platform. How you get to that position is entirely situational.



Took the words right out of my mouth. Yes, you can get to that situation by dtilt, dash attack, fair, upthrow on battlefield, and a few other situations (one of them being downthrow on floatier characters such as Marth). It doesn't matter how you get to that situation, all I'm saying is that downsmash covers every tech option. I never claimed upthrow was the only way. All I'm saying is that in this specific situation, downsmash is guaranteed. It may not lead to the most damage, and there may be other reaction tech chase options.

Ok... well.... "Depends on whether you want to be risky and try and extend the combo or want to be safe and possibly put them in an edgeguard/another platform tech chase situation. Personally, I feel downsmash is the best option every time. You can usually get a lot off of a downsmash." certainly doesn't sound like you were talking situationally here, after I call you out on preaching does it make it sound like you refined your position to where its actually applicable...

Hello fellow Sami!
My name is Zyko, a puertorican Fox main and I'm currently ranked 9th in PR.
Just wanted you to know how much l loathe this thread with passion.

Who cares about Puerto Rico? Until you guys vote to become a state and pay taxes, you are as relevant as any other rando us territory, jk, yes this thread is pretty meh, 2/10 am I a fan

 

[GoomySmash]

Alright, so now that me and Barbie's informative and totally not-annoying arguing about platform tech chases is over, here's some of my findings on downthrow tech chases as Samus just on the ground:

Unless you're super keen on the beginnings of each tech roll animation for each character, you can actually start to see the character moving in a direction around frame 7. If you train yourself to recognize the very first parts of the animations of tech in place, tech roll away and techroll towards, I'm sure you could start to figure out which direction they're going around 3-4. Given that, human reaction time is around 15 frames, so I'm just going to go with that. I've heard if you condition yourself you may be able to get your reactions down to something like 10 frames. That being said, it seems that the cutoff point is at about frame 20 (assuming frame perfect execution), at least to punish with downtilt or downsmash. To punish with jab the cutoff point is frame 23.

If you downthrow Fox and he tech rolls behind you (and you want to punish with downsmash/downtilt/ftilt):
You have 40 frames to punish him
20 frames of reaction time (more like 13 frames of reaction time if you haven't trained yourself to the tech roll and tech in place animations before they actually start moving)
1 frame of turn around
3 frames of jumpsquat
10 frames of wavedash landing lag
6 frames for downtilt/downsmash/ftilt

= 40 frames

If you downthrow Fox and he tech rolls in front of you:
You have 40 frames to punish him
21 frames reaction time
3 frames of jumpsquat
10 frames of wavedash landing lag
6 frames for dtilt/whatever

= 40 frames

If you want to jab reset a missed tech I've found the last frame I can get to perform a jab reset is frame 19 (as in you start the jab on frame 19 of their missed tech)

Also what's really important, is if they DI away at high percent and then tech roll away, they will be too far away to wavedash in and punish. I've found using debug mode that you can usually account for this by buffering a walk forward before they hit the ground.

So in summary:
You can theoretically cover every downthrow tech option (on Fox) on FD if you do the following steps:
1.) Downthrow
2.) Buffer a walk forward by holding the control stick forward immediately after the downthrow (Continue walking forward until they hit the ground if they're DIing away)
3.) Wait 19 frames after they hit the ground and decide which direction they're going or if they miss tech/tech in place
4.)
- If they roll back towards you, do a turnaround and then wavedash -> downsmash or jab, depending on how fast you are
- If they roll away, wavedash forward and downsmash/jab
- If they tech in place, downsmash/downtilt/forward tilt/jab
- If they miss their tech, jab reset or downsmash

This is one possible way you could do a reaction tech chase with Samus. I'll look into covering every option with dash attack/options out of run later.

 

[GoomySmash]

Dash attack comes out on frame 7 and lasts until frame 16. If you start dash dancing before they hit the ground, you should be able to tech chase every option on reaction.

Tech roll away and towards are easy because the vulnerability lasts from 20 - 40, so you have up to 33 frames to react to it and dash attack (assuming you're already facing the correct way and are spaced correctly in your dash dance). If you're facing the wrong way it will take a frame longer. If you're spaced incorrectly, then it will take even longer.

Missed tech and tech in place are the hardest to react to with dash attack, with tech in place being the hardest because if you prematurely release the dash attack it won't hit tech in place. For tech in place, you need to react in 13 - 18 frames (assuming you're facing the correct way and are spaced correctly, longer if not). It's on the cusp of human reaction time, but it's doable.

So basically just do what Armada does for his punishes. He basically dashdances and then does dash attack. This seems like probably the most reliable tech chasing strategy (I guess that's why Armada sort of does this)... Man, why has no one just copied Armada's dash dance/dash attack tech chasing with Samus? Samus' dash attack is about as good as Peach's.

So that's another option for guaranteed reaction tech chases with Samus, do a really well spaced dash dance and be able to react to tech in place (and missed tech) in less than 18 frames, and you should be able to cover every tech option - tech away, tech in, tech in place and missed tech. Well spaced dash dance meaning if they DI away, you make sure when they land at the ground you are as close to them as possible while dash dancing. I remember hearing a general rule from someone I can't remember the name of, but he said with tech chasing you should cover the closest options first (tech in place/missed tech) and then react to if they tech away.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Hey, where'd you get the data for how long missed tech takes? I've been looking for it.

Peach dash attack is a much better combo starter than samus dash attack. Samus dash attack might easily cover options but you're giving up damage to do so. Dtilt outright combos into another move and ftilt sets up another tech situation.Not to mention you could upthrow instead for a near %30 combo (uthrow 11% + bair 16%ish = 27%).

So in summary:
You can theoretically cover every downthrow tech option (on Fox) on FD if you do the following steps:
1.) Downthrow
2.) Buffer a walk forward by holding the control stick forward immediately after the downthrow (Continue walking forward until they hit the ground if they're DIing away)
3.) Wait 19 frames after they hit the ground and decide which direction they're going or if they miss tech/tech in place
4.)
- If they roll back towards you, do a turnaround and then wavedash -> downsmash or jab, depending on how fast you are
- If they roll away, wavedash forward and downsmash/jab
- If they tech in place, downsmash/downtilt/forward tilt/jab
- If they miss their tech, jab reset or downsmash

If you wait 19 frames after they hit the ground and then have to wait for 15 frames for your reaction time, didn't you just miss the punish? I assume you meant that you see their tech direction on frame 4 and take 15 frames to react. It just doesn't read that way.

 

[GoomySmash]

Hey, where'd you get the data for how long missed tech takes? I've been looking for it.

Peach dash attack is a much better combo starter than samus dash attack. Samus dash attack might easily cover options but you're giving up damage to do so. Dtilt outright combos into another move and ftilt sets up another tech situation.Not to mention you could upthrow instead for a near %30 combo (uthrow 11% + bair 16%ish = 27%).

Sure, you could do all of those things. Dash attack usually leads to another tech chase situation at mid percentages ~20% - ~60% on spacies. If you trick them into DIing in you can usually follow up a dash attack with nair, ftilt another dash attack or even fsmash. Again, it all depends on DI and percent, but I'd say mid percents dash attack isn't the worst option because you can get them into another tech situation.

Another thing to note is that you can cancel Samus' run by crouching. So you can actually move about the same distance but 1 frame faster if you run -> crouch -> immediate downsmash/downtilt/ftilt than if you wavedash and then downsmash/downtilt/ftilt

Grab is another interesting option, especially if you go for extender. Extender covers tech in place, tech away and tech in if you're spaced correctly and preemptively release the grab before you can react (grab comes out frame 18 and tech in place vulnerability lasts until frame 25, so you'd need to react in 7 frames which is not possible, it would have to be a read that they won't miss their tech).
I'd say grab may be viable as a reaction if it's for tech away/tech in as an alternative to dash attack/wavedash downtilt/run ->crouch -> downtilt. If you are facing the correct way and are spaced correctly, you could theorectically have 22 frames to react to tech away/in.

Hey, where'd you get the data for how long missed tech takes? I've been looking for it.

If you wait 19 frames after they hit the ground and then have to wait for 15 frames for your reaction time, didn't you just miss the punish? I assume you meant that you see their tech direction on frame 4 and take 15 frames to react. It just doesn't read that way.

Yeah, sorry that might not have been clear. Essentially what I'm saying is that by frame 19, you have to make a decision or else you could miss a tech option. Realistically, if you have to make a decision by frame 19 it means that you only have about 12 frames to react, 15 frames if you've conditioned yourself to the beginnings of the tech chase animations.

 

[343]

(sic post)

Also what's really important, is if they DI away at high percent and then tech roll away, they will be too far away to wavedash in and punish. I've found using debug mode that you can usually account for this by buffering a walk forward before they hit the ground.

if you dthrow at high (enough) % and they DI away, isn't one of ftilt/dash attack guaranteed? (I guess getting a wd dsmash is better though)

 

[GoomySmash]

Some other things I've found from playing with this:

Up B can cover tech in place and missed tech. The hitbox of upB comes out on frame 4 I believe, but you become invincible on frame 2. If you're a little late on the tech in place/missed tech punish with upB, as long as they don't buffer shield/roll, you'll usually still be able to hit them

When spaced correctly, downsmash can cover missed tech, tech in place and tech roll in. Basically if they slightly DI away (to the point where the very tip of your downsmash hitbox covers their tech in place) then if they roll in the second hit of downsmash will also snag them.

I think it might make sense to choose different options depending on DI. If they DI in, they will land right at your feet, which is the best position to be in when starting a tech chase. If they DI out, you have to react to that and dash towards them.

So here's a little flowchart I've been experimenting with which is by no means optimal (I'm just trying to find something easy/simple enough that I can realistically do it):

If they DI in:
-Missed tech - Up B
-Tech in place - Up B
-Tech roll in - Dash attack
-Tech roll out - Dash attack

If they DI slightly out:
-Missed tech - Downsmash
-Tech in place - Downsmash
-Tech roll in - Downsmash
-Tech roll out - Dash attack

If they DI all the way out:
Before they land on the ground do a single dash forward so you end up right where they begin the tech
-Missed tech - Up B
-Tech in place - Up B
-Tech roll in - Dash attack
-Tech roll out - Dash attack

I've been trying to cover tech options in a few different ways and this seems somewhat easier to execute (it's still pretty hard though)

 

[343]

^are you talking about teching on platforms or on the ground in this post?

 

[GoomySmash]

^are you talking about teching on platforms or on the ground in this post?

I'm done talking about teching on platforms. Although this theoretically could be applied to both.

 

[K@ta]

Please share any findings!! I'll be working with 20XX too and keep practicing on reaction tech chases.

 

[grayfox]

Something i havent seen covered here but charge shot provides great lateral coverage of several options with a 25% pay off and potential edge guarding depending on stage positioning and %

 

[Locuan]

Locking the thread. There was good information posted. However, there was some bit of trolling going on.