Team Fortress 2: Highlander {Availability/Scheduling}

[Xyless]

I was kinda surprised because almost every game I go into usually has a million snipers on each team.

Really? Because most places I go, it's either millions of soldiers or pyros.

 

[Smashjin]

Yeah usually I run into a lot of spies and snipers on a team.

 

[Xyless]

So after playing with a friend on a few payload servers, I've decided I have the greatest Pester Scout known to man.

Probably would only be useful for payload maps though.

 

[Krynxe]

So, could we get some sort of poll for who wants to do this vanilla? I talked to Clam Stacker on steam and both of use would prefer vanilla and nobody from when I last mentioned it really seemed against it. (Though we're not opposed to playing regular, it'd just be preferred.)

The rules on playing vanilla would simply be:
[COLLAPSE="Vanilla"]- Each player may only use stock items for their selected class.
- Items for aesthetics are okay. This includes all hats, misc items, and remodeled stock weapons such as the Iron Curtain, Lugermorph, Big Kill, The Original, Holy Mackeral, Frying Pan, etc. (I'm unsure of Action slot items at this time, I assume they have nothing to effect gameplay but am not sure)
- Any items with + or - effects on them are not allowed. This includes items that are almost identical to their stock item counterpart, but still have some effect to them such as the Solemn Vow or Amputator.
- Only the default spy watch may be used. (Many spies might be completely opposed to this, but the Invis watch is actually very good despite how little it's used. We can't be inconsistent, either.) [/COLLAPSE]

Any suggestions or objections for these rules?

 

[GwJ]

HWAHWAHWAHWAH

Good thing I became a stock Spy player about a month ago.

My body is ready.

 

[UltiMario]

Isn't one of the points that makes highlander more unique the fact that it allows more variety than most other rulesets? Vanilla is even more strict than most strict of rulesets.

There's also the case of Pyro that gets completely nullified by being forced to use Stock. If we play Stock, we might as well just ignore Pyro completely and let each team have a duplicate class of choice. That is how bad Stock Pyro is.

I am entirely against all Vanilla. I'd even say that for the most part, Vanilla even tips character balance out of favor to classes like Pyro and Spy (two characters that need considerable work in order to function well in higher play), and even more in favor of Demo and Soldier (the two already best classes in the game).

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'm siding with UltiMario here, the idea for Highlander is to allow variety than standard 6v6 and etc. so I'd be against a vanilla ruleset.

 

[GwJ]

Whatever you guys decide on is fine with me.

 

[Krynxe]

There's also the case of Pyro that gets completely nullified by being forced to use Stock. If we play Stock, we might as well just ignore Pyro completely and let each team have a duplicate class of choice. That is how bad Stock Pyro is.

I'm sorry, but I find that completely incorrect. The default flamethrower is probably the best available flamethrower in terms of it's usefulness to your team. The degreaser is terrible and defeats the purpose of playing pyro, it's only useful for the stupidly good axtinguisher. The backburner is very good, it's my personal favorite normally, but the airblast has become a very important part of the pyro's metagame and is very useful for the team. As for secondaries, the shotgun is very clearly the best capable of up to 90 damage close up and around 60 at a distance. Shooting flares that almost always miss don't really help much, and that other shotgun is good if you enjoy reloading and not shooting. Finally, Besides the axtinguisher, all of pyro's melee weapons are passable as well. (Centralizing on melee isn't very smart. Demoknights are one of the most annoying things in the game imo, from my experience they always do poorly and hardly contribute to the team effort. Especially since the sticky bomb launcher is sooo good.)

Very obviously, this game originated vanilla. It was designed to be balanced, and was probably the most balanced the game ever was at that point. Plus, the addition of the airblast during the pyro update just made vanilla pyro even better than he originally was. (I can't recall any other stock weapons receiving such a notable buff) Plus, some classes like Soldier and Demo received large nerfs. These are some of the pyro's biggest adversaries, and with the airblast this only gives him a larger advantage against them. To be honest, vanilla tf2 now is probably more balanced than tf2 was right after the game's release.

I personally find no balance issues with vanilla whatsoever, as I said before I find it to actually be much more team oriented and using the classes the way they were intended. Most of the new content seems to be directed to players who like to run out and kill things independently, which is not how this game should work. (And clearly doesn't, as evident when playing against a team actually using teamwork) Remember to consider every class as a whole with vanilla, both teams will be on equal grounds as well. Notably, some of the "balance" items, such as sniper's anti-spy items, won't be available. Don't look at it as current tf2 with vanilla pyro, look at it in relativity to every other vanilla class.


tl;dr Vanilla da bes, go read if you disagree


Edit: Buuut, I'm not opposed to non-vanilla. I forgot to mention some of the new items that are team oriented which can help the game. (Such as the Homewrecker, Jarate, Sandvich) I'm just disagreeing with your argument as to why vanilla is bad. I understand if it's simply a case of "I like the new weapons and would rather play non-vanilla" and am okay with that, there's just others that would like vanilla and I see nothing wrong with that. If we do play non-vanilla, I think we should whether or not banning certain items will occur.

 

[Xyless]

I'm against vanilla. A few weapons that are stock that are not as good as other options are...

Scout: Pistol (very low ammo count, Bonk and Milk are more useful)

Soldier: Shotgun (Banners weapons are more useful for groups), Shovel (Pain Train better for capping, Disciplinary Action better for getting slowpokes moving)

Pyro: Shotgun (though more solid in water, Detonator is better for flames and Reserve Shooter better for degreaser)

Demoman: Bottle (There are better melee weapons)

Heavy: Minigun (Natascha has uses), Shotgun (Sandvich is extremely useful in highlander to keep the medic alive), Fists (GRU and FoS could be useful depending on the situation)

Engineer: I don't even think I have to get into how much Engi's metagame has changed since the Engi update.

Medic: Syringe Gun (Useless in tourneys, as crits are normally off. Most competitive fields allow Blutsauger), Bonesaw (again, not very useful, and ubersaw is worth keeping always for competitive medic...heck, there are times where Amputator would be good too)

Sniper: Sniper Rifle (Almost always better, but Huntsman and Machina have their uses), SMG (Jarate or Razorback are more useful in situations)

Spy: Revolver (Enforcer, L'Etranger, and possibly Ambassador are more usable), Knife (Eternal Reward can be very useful, as can Kunai if you can use it just right)


I'd honestly be fine with vanilla, but if we HAVE to choose, I'd want more options than less, if anything because multiple classes have gotten some major changes with their newer stuff, like Engi.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Don't forget the Soldier's Equalizer, and the Sniper's Bushwacka with the Jarate.

 

[Krynxe]

Right, like I said if people like the new weapons and want to play using them I don't mind. I just don't see anything wrong with vanilla and I haven't played it in years so I thought it'd be really fun. (And I'd figure others would share that opinion)

I do disagree with you a bit Xyless, but I'm not trying to argue or justify vanilla tf2. The following are simply my opinions, just to give you an idea what I think about some of the new items. Again, don't take this the wrong way lol.

[COLLAPSE="imo"]Scout:
Preferred primary: Scattergun
- Scattergun is the best scout primary, followed by the FaN, the other two aren't notable (especially after SS nerf). The FaN has it's merits against players with low health, and the knockback can serve useful for running away (especially behind corners). The scattergun has almost equal damage as the FaN, though, with less spread. (~100dmg point blank iirc) You can potentially kill any class, even over-healed, with a single clip with the right skill.
Preferred secondary: Pistol
- Hitting for about 15-20 dmg per shot at reasonable range, the pistol is a fantastic way to finish off enemies, take down engi builds, and harass players form a distance. Also private, switching to your pistol is faster than reloading. Bonk! is just bad, the Winger is trash (it's like +2dmg per shot, but 5/12 clip size), and Mad Milk is okay for team assisting.
Preferred melee: Atomizer (or Sun-on-a-stick with good/many pyros)
- Too many melee weapons to note, but I'll admit that using stock melee is sort of a waste. Sandman is okay if you're good with it and Atomizer is just a free passive effect to trade some hp for a triple jump. FoW is pretty good for your team too.

Soldier:
Preferred primary: Rocket Launcher (good medics on team), Black Box (no medics or arena)
- I think I said enough already. DH is bad, LL is meh, idk about the CM5k.
Preferred secondary: Shotgun (or others)
- Soldier has many good secondaries. To be brief- shotty is always good, sometimes g.boats for solo fortress, sometimes banners for team fortress. mantreads/bison are terrible, reserve shooter isn't very useful.
Preferred melee: Equalizer
- Going stock is waste, equalizer is so good and disc. action is a straight upgrade with team assisting. P.train is good sometimes too.


Pyro: Shotgun (though more solid in water, Detonator is better for flames and Reserve Shooter better for degreaser)
Preferred primary: Backburner
- That who burns is mightier than that who blows. :D Now that the Backburner can airblast when necessary it's so good. Especially since most people forgot the weapon existed and turn around to run away rofl. Flamey is good when you need the m2 spam, degreaser is good if you're

Spoiler

homo

and use the axtinguisher.
Preferred secondary: Shotgun
- As I said already, 60-90 dmg is so much better than some long range fire. Also, without shotty other pyros who use shotty **** you. Detonator jump is useless, too. xD
Preferred melee: Homewrecker
- Induces rage in spies, super credit to engi, etc. It's also a faster method of disposing of enemy (non sentry) builds that are lying around.

Too flazy to write the remaining 6 classes lol, but you get my point. This comes from having something over 2500 hours played on this game...[/COLLAPSE]
I'm sure nobody will take the time to read that lol.

 

[Smashjin]

I'll play whatever I guess, I'd probably feel weird playing Sniper without my pee jar though.

The only serious Highlander I've seen was this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3elq0eUEX0 where it looks like the bans were:Reserve Shooter, The Enforcer, Cow Mangler 5000, Machina, Detonator, and set bonuses.

For the most part the bans seemed pretty fair in this match at least. I'm not sure if this is the standard for Highlander or what though, I'm still kinda new to it all.

Preferred primary: Backburner
- That who burns is mightier than that who blows. :D Now that the Backburner can airblast when necessary it's so good. Especially since most people forgot the weapon existed and turn around to run away rofl. Flamey is good when you need the m2 spam, degreaser is good if you're

Spoiler

homo

and use the Axtinguisher.

I feel like the Backburner is lamer then Degreaser/Axtinguisher combo haha. I just have more respect for someone who juggles the Degreaser, airblasts and landing those melee hits then someone who just walks around with fire out and does ridiculous amounts of damage for seemingly less effort.

 

[Krynxe]

Yeah, but keep in mind the time of that tourney. I think the Cow Mangler was still overpowered at that time, but idk. The only things I'd put down for banning are axtinguisher (as you can all tell I have a lot of axtin. hate lol) and maybe the gunslinger. The gunslinger might not be so bad in koth, but in some modes like arena engis can just run around with seemingly infinite sentries. (with a dispenser and ammo lying around)

A lot of people argue against "w+m1 noobs" but the simple truth is that's the point of pyro and that's what makes him/her good. You don't know how many times I've killed pyros, mainly with my heavy, because they decided to airblast me away from their fire instead of continuing to burn and kill me. The axtinguisher is just plain stupid, though. It takes no more skill, I'd even argue far less skill than a good backburner pyro, to click, right click, switch weapons, click again quickly. Simply use a bind and you're good to go. "bind f tf_weapon_fireaxe" and all you have to do is m1->m2->f->m1 really quickly and you get a free insta kill on most classes. I'm so tired of my medics being insta killed, and I'm so tired of stupid pyros being able to melee insta kill me before they suck up enough minigun rounds to even die. Sorry for sippin' that hatorade mayn, but I just hate the axtinguisher.

 

[Smashjin]

Don't get me wrong, I get frustrated sometimes from both Backburner and Axt. Maybe because I'm not very good at hitting with the Axt after fire I have a little more respect for it.

I think making good use of airblasts (airblasting stickies, rockets, etc, as well as neutralizing ubercharges with it) combined with lurking around tighter corridors and flanking, then of course picking battles your battles carefully is what makes a Pyro good.

Backburner is good and all, but it costs a lot more for airblasts as well. I think Degreaser might be a little more flexible for that reason.

But yeah, Highlander.

Gunslinger doesn't bother me too much, the mini-sentrys are easy enough to take out.

 

[Krynxe]

Right, I understand. I said earlier, I support the default flamethrower as the best one for usefulness to your team, I just personally use the backburner for quicker/easier kills because I know how to play a good pyro that doesn't rely on airblasting, but can use it to defelct rockets and other projectiles quite well when necesarry. 9or help teammates) I think this takes a good bit of experience, considering you see a lot of pyros either: 1. airblasting a lot, lighting a lot of things on fire, harassing ubers, not getting many kills 2. m1ing a lot, running into crowds, dying very quickly, doing a decent amount of damage to slow down the enemy for a bit, still not getting many kills.

And yeah, minisentries aren't too difficult to destroy but when engis can have a seemingly infinite amount of them, every time you destroy one another just pops up immediately in the same general area. I find it a bit more of a harassment tool than an efficient killing tool tbh, unless you're talking about a lone scout that can't seem to find it or something. It just makes capping/holding a point extremely easy (for the team using it) because the enemy always has to go focus on the mini sentry first, and then another one builds in 1 second.

I haven't played since we all last played, so I'll hop on today and think about what I might want banned besides the axtinguisher. I can't think of anything else that's exceptionally overpowered, like I think the machina is fine because sniper alone is pretty underpowered in relativity and the detonator is worse than the flare gun cause it doesn't do the mini crit thing and it's jump is near useless.

 

[UltiMario]

Most people will just plain agree that Degreaser is best, if not only for the ability to pick off any single target you desire at a whim with the Axtinguisher.

Also Flare Gun Crits, not mini-crits. I think that's a pretty old change now.

If there was any items I'd say is ban worthy, it'd be the Enforcer and Amputator, because they're strictly upgrades of stock weapons. Anything else would be fair game.

Spoiler

I've always been one for loose rules.

 

[Krynxe]

Exactly, the degreaser is only good because of the ability to better use the axtinguisher, proving the axtinguisher to be the good weapon. (You know a melee weapon is overpowered if you can substitute for your primary like that just to use it better; considering the degreaser sucks terribly alone.)

I don't remember the flare gun doing regular crits, since I've been using the shotgun for so long and most pyros use the detonator now. That's pretty cool, the flare gun must be a good way to kill enemies you've set on fire who try to run away now.

As for the enforcer, it is a direct upgrade but only if they're using the Dead Ringer. Otherwise, there's a half second increase in cloak time which is a pretty significant when trying to escape from enemy sight. I wouldn't be opposed to be banning using both the enforcer and the dead ringer at once, but allowing either one or the other per spy. (Considering the damage buff isn't too large, so the cloak time penalty is a reasonable trade.) I also don't think the amputator/solemn vow (any other direct upgrades?) should even be considered for banning because, though they are direct upgrades of the stock item, their effects aren't really that great. More notably, I think most people can agree the ubersaw is still generally the best melee weapon anyways for medic.

Here's what I think should be up for discussion for banning. If you think something belongs here, mention it. Again, these are not what I think should be banned, these are what I think are the only weapons with the potential to be banned. This is be no means a possible ban list.
[COLLAPSE="Discuss"]
-All set bonuses(?)

Primary:
- Rocket Jumper
- Cow Mangler 5000
- Machina
- Enforcer
- Daimondback

Secondary:
- Sticky Jumper
- Wrangler
- Jarate

Melee:
Equalizer
Half-Zatoichi
Axtinguisher
Ullapool Caber
Persian Persuader
Killing Gloves of Boxing
Gunslinger

Watch:
Cloak and Dagger
Dead Ringer
[/COLLAPSE]

Of course, I feel like I'm trying to make this far more professional than it is. I really don't mind how we play, I just want this to be as balanced as possible for everyone's sake. If everyone is in favor of just keeping everything legal, it's no problem at all. And sorry for so much axtinguisher bias lol. >_>

 

[Terywj [태리]]

As I've said, I'm for variety, but I'd chime in that the Cloak and Dagger really slows down Spy gameplay. Being unable to replenish with ammo really sucks and leaves the Spy either sitting there waiting for recharge or the use of the L'Etranger, which is weak and gives away the position. There's no need to ban the Cloak and Dagger, since the Invis Watch or Dead Ringer are better anyway.

 

[Krynxe]

It's actually used very frequently for one large factor, camping. I mentioned it because of spies being able to indefinitely cloak and lurk one area for an extremely long time, harassing specific players and not being found/known about by others. I personally think either watch should be banned, I think they're rather well balanced for the most part. (Each with many flaws and uses specific to them)

 

[Terywj [태리]]

A Cloak Spy that scouts is forced to wait and ambush, meaning one less active player for the team. A tracking Cloak and Dagger user will either pull off a few successful backstabs before the team begins to adjust / spy check / communicate accordingly, and if they're scared off from attempting a kill, it once again limits the effect player total to eight because the Spy has to sit and recharge.

 

[Smashjin]

Again, these are not what I think should be banned, these are what I think are the only weapons with the potential to be banned. This is be no means a possible ban list.
[COLLAPSE="Discuss"]
-All set bonuses(?)

Primary:
- Rocket Jumper
- Cow Mangler 5000
- Machina
- Enforcer
- Daimondback

Secondary:
- Sticky Jumper
- Wrangler
- Jarate

Melee:
Equalizer
Half-Zatoichi
Axtinguisher
Ullapool Caber
Persian Persuader
Killing Gloves of Boxing
Gunslinger

Watch:
Cloak and Dagger
Dead Ringer
[/COLLAPSE]

Of course, I feel like I'm trying to make this far more professional than it is. I really don't mind how we play, I just want this to be as balanced as possible for everyone's sake. If everyone is in favor of just keeping everything legal, it's no problem at all. And sorry for so much axtinguisher bias lol. >_>

I guess you like the mailbox then.

Also why are you against Jarate?

 

[Krynxe]

things that are remodeled still count, lol.

Also, I'm not personally against the jarate, like I said I think it has some potential to be considered for ban. (If other people think so) The reasons I had in mind were people being able to constantly throw it at the point any time an enemy tried to cap, making it extremely difficult for them. It's also extremely good at countering kritzkrieg or other forms of enemy rushes, assuming it's not the lone sniper but with his team.

 

[UltiMario]

I honestly just love pub gameplay.

This is smashboards, not a pro league. TF2 is still well balanced, but so many people just like to ***** at anything that isn't vanilla or very close to it.

That banlist barely makes sense too. Most of those weapons have fair Drawbacks, or are even inferior to other weapons in almost every circumstance (ex KGB is not even best heavy gloves. GRU is def better).

Rule of thumb of the world: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The only thing on that list I can even CONTEMPLATE being broke is the Enforcer. So yeah. I vote no bans, or AT MOST Enforcer Ban.

I really don't understand your hate for the Cow Mangler either. Improved player to player combat at the expense of slower reload, no crits (not even boosted crits) and the inability to do ANYTHING to Engineers.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Hey UltiMario, there's the part where Krynxe said he doesn't really mind how we play, just trying to get discussion about the various items.

 

[Deleted member]

so roughly what classes are we still missing people for?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We're still missing two more people for two teams of nine. Meanwhile, the only real problem is we're missing at least another Sniper. The preferences for the classes are as follows.

[Class: +/O/-]

Scout - [8/7/1]
Soldier - [4/7/5]
Pyro - [6/8/0]
Demoman - [5/3/8]
Heavy - [4/6/5]
Engineer - [3/5/6]
Medic - [3/11/2]
Sniper - [1/6/9]
Spy - [4/4/6]

We can fill everything else in relatively fine.

 

[Deleted member]

if after those two we're still lacking a sniper I guess I could fill the slot but I doubt I'm good enough for it.

 

[Krynxe]

Hey UltiMario, there's the part where Krynxe said he doesn't really mind how we play, just trying to get discussion about the various items.

Yeah UltiMario, pretty much everything you said I already clarified on my own lol. Please read my posts fully before you misunderstand me, I'm not trying to be hostile or form my own rules, I'm just trying to put all this out there because nobody else is really discussing it. As I said, if we decide to keep everything legal and just play than so be it.

if after those two we're still lacking a sniper I guess I could fill the slot but I doubt I'm good enough for it.

It'll be fine, as long as you feel comfortable playing sniper. Don't feel obliged though, I'm sure someone else will be happy playing Sniper if you don't really want to.

 

[Xyless]

Cloak & Dagger is amazing for recon. Have him sit behind the team and alert them of anything major, then get important stabs when necessary.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

If it comes down to it, I will also be willing to play Sniper. I'll just use the Sydney Sleeper for team support.

 

[Krynxe]

Nothing like letting your team finish them off instead of just initially killing them on your own lol. Sydney Sleeper would be pretty boss if it jarate'd people without a charge requirement though, I'm not gonna lie. xD

 

[Clam Stacker]

Personally I don't mind whether or not we go vanilla. Vanilla Team Fortress was the original "game" and nothing was terribly overpowered or underpowered. Every class had a defined role. After Valve started adding items is when the whole balance issue got started. Not saying that eating sandviches, drinking BONK, and throwing piss on people isn't fun, but vanilla is a playable alternative.

 

[Smashjin]

Enforcer is terrifying.

Also anyone wanna play/practice sometime? I just normally hop on whatever servers sometimes.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'll probably be loitering around / goofing off later.

 

[Smashjin]

I'll probably be loitering around / goofing off later.

Added you. Figured you'd have asian girls as your steam profile pic.

 

[GwJ]

Oh yeah, Enforcer. We're gonna ban that, right? I'm a Spy main and even I know that should be banned.

 

[Krynxe]

I wrote like a whole paragraph about the enforcer a few posts ago lol. It's only a direct upgrade when using the dead ringer, so as I suggested I think we should only ban using both the dead ringer and enforcer at one time. Trading half a second of cloak startup time for an extra 5-10 damage per landed shot is pretty balanced otherwise.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Are we stuck here? We can either wait it out for two more, or do something like remove a class and use teams of eight? Maybe remove the Sniper since nobody is fond of him?

 

[Krynxe]

I was thinking the same thing recently, we're not getting more people.

Either that Tery, or we could recruit non swf players to play as substitutes.