TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

fogbadge

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Yeah please use Spoilertags ( Bobthealligator Bobthealligator fogbadge fogbadge )

4-3 is Turnabout Serenade, the one with the concert. Similarily to 2-3, also in 3-4 the logic is the biggest flaw (and I agree, 4-3 has a lot of plotholes, apart from that the case imo is very enjoyable, though). Regarding the logic in 2-3:
It's mainly how the murder took place - the whole flying-thing (Moe thinking it was Max flying seems a bit unrealistic), pulling the bust up, etc...
... tbh I don't remember the whole details and personally I thought the scenarios were fine, this is only what I heard from other people - if you want to know more about it, just google "Turnabout Big Top hated" and you'll get a lot of threads about this case.
concert? i think i know which one you mean. now im curious about the flaw in logic in 3-4, ill just have to google all of them and refresh my memory a little as i go
 

Dukemon102

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Sure wish they could actually localize it.
Yeah I wish, so more people would actually know it exists. But at this point anyone can play it in English if they actually want to.
Same with DGS (I have to start 4th case soon, Dragon Quest XI S took all my attention for this 2 months).
 
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Yeah please use Spoilertags ( Bobthealligator Bobthealligator fogbadge fogbadge )

4-3 is Turnabout Serenade, the one with the concert. Similarily to 2-3, also in 3-4 the logic is the biggest flaw (and I agree, 4-3 has a lot of plotholes, apart from that the case imo is very enjoyable, though). Regarding the logic in 2-3:
It's mainly how the murder took place - the whole flying-thing (Moe thinking it was Max flying seems a bit unrealistic), pulling the bust up, etc...
... tbh I don't remember the whole details and personally I thought the scenarios were fine, this is only what I heard from other people - if you want to know more about it, just google "Turnabout Big Top hated" and you'll get a lot of threads about this case.


For instance you can take a look at this representative list - hundreds of people rated each case in polls from 1-10 over a timespan of many weeks and out of all 38 cases, 4-3 and 4-2 placed among the 3 worst cases (alongside with 2-1), they were also the only cases that couldn't reach an average score of more than 5/10:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/3uzlhr/rate_that_case_day_39_wrap_up_the_end_for_now/

Here are the full results of the public poll from before SoJ was even out:

1.) I2-5 - 9.38
2.) 2-4 - 9.2
3.) 3-5 - 9.16
4.) 1-4 - 8.82
5.) I2-4 - 8.64
6.) I2-3 - 8.45
7.) 1-5 - 8.44
8.) I2-1 - 8.44
9.) PL-3 - 8.24
10.) 5-D - 8.17
11.) 5-5 - 7.84
12.) I-5 - 7.8
13.) 4-1 - 7.77
14.) I-4 - 7.74
15.) 3-2 - 7.67
16.) 3-4 - 7.64
17.) 2-2 - 7.56
18.) 3-1 - 7.43
19.) I2-2 - 7.37
20.) PL-2 - 7.36
21.) 5-4 - 7.15
22.) 4-4 - 7.11
23.) 1-2 - 6.99
24.) 5-3 - 6.93
25.) 1-3 - 6.65
26.) I-2 - 6.54
27.) 3-3 - 6.43
28.) 1-1 - 6.43
29.) 5-1 - 6.32
30.) I-3 - 6.17
31.) PL-1 - 6.06
32.) I-1 - 5.93
33.) 5-2 - 5.85
34.) PL-4 - 5.75
35.) 4-2 - 5.63
36.) 4-3 - 5
37.) 2-3 - 4.79
38.) 2-1 - 4.54

Game:
AAI2 - 8.46
T&T - 7.67
PW:AA - 7.47
DD - 7.04
PLAA - 6.85
AAI - 6.84
JFA - 6.52
AJ - 6.38


In comparison, here is my PERSONAL ranking from 2017 (excluding PLvsAA and AAI2):

Mediocre:

35.) AA2 The Lost Turnabout (2-1)
34.) AAI Turnabout Visitor (I-1)
33.) AAI The Kidnapped Turnabout (I-3)
32.) AA1 The First Turnabout (1-1)
31.) AA4 Turnabout Serenade (4-3)
30.) AAI Turnabout Airlines (I-2)
29.) AA5 The Monstrous Turnabout (5-2)
28.) AA2 Reunion, and Turnabout (2-2)
27.) AA2 Turnabout Big Top (2-3)

Good:

26.) AAI Turnabout Ablaze (I-5)
25.) AA1 Turnabout Samurai (1-3)
24.) AA5 Turnabout Countdown (5-1)
23.) AA4 Turnabout Corner (4-2)
22.) AA6 The Foreign Turnabout (6-1)
21.) AA3 Recipe for Turnabout (3-3)

Very Good:

20.) AA1 Turnabout Sisters (1-2)
19.) AA3 The Stolen Turnabout (3-2)
18.) AA6 Turnabout Time Traveller (6-6 - DLC)
17.) AA4 Turnabout Trump (4-1)
16.) AAI Turnabout Reminiscence (I-4)
15.) AA5 The Cosmic Turnabout (5-4)

Amazing:

14.) AA3 Turnabout Memories (3-1)
13.) AA6 The Magical Turnabout (6-2)
12.) AA3 Turnabout Beginnings (3-4)
11.) AA6 The Storyteller Turnabout (6-4)
10.) AA4 Turnabout Succession (4-4)
9.) AA6 The Rite of Turnabout (6-3)

Outstanding:

8.) AA5 Turnabout Academy (5-3)
7.) AA5 Turnabout Reclaimed (5-6 - DLC)
6.) AA2 Farewell, My Turnabout (2-4)
5.) AA1 Rise from the Ashes (1-5)
4.) AA5 Turnabout for Tomorrow (5-5)
3.) AA1 Turnabout Goodbyes (1-4)

Almost perfect:

2.) AA6 Turnabout Revolution (6-5)
1.) AA3 Bridge to the Turnabout (3-5)

Games:
10/10: AA6, AA5, AA3
9/10: AA1, PLvsAA
8/10: AA4, AA2
7/10: AAI1
I will not accept any polls in which I2-5 is the top case. That's just poor taste.
 
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I will not accept any polls in which I2-5 is the top case. That's just poor taste.
I thought it was a really good case. It connected points from other cases that tied up loose ends such as

Finding out why President Huang didn't seem like the man he was said to be in the first case.

I'd say it was one of the best in the series.
 
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I thought it was a really good case. It connected points from other cases that tied up loose ends such as

Finding out why President Huang didn't seem like the man he was said to be in the first case.

I'd say it was one of the best in the series.
Honestly I thought the culprit was just such an asspull, you could have made it anyone and it wouldn't have made a difference, so it didn't feel earned or shocking. It's like if the culprit of 2-4 had turned out to be Dr. Hotti.
 
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I feel the culprit being an asspull is a much more deserved criticism for the conclusion in DD
So it's Fulbright but not really because that guy was dead all along and instead it's this boogeyman character with 0 buildup or hint regarding his existence throughout the game until nearly the end? and with a very basic personality trait and motivation at that? Fantastic writing you guys.
Investigations 1 is also pretty bad about it given how it feels they just wanted to have a high charge politician being taken down, and the build up for that is simply not worth it as the whole "extraterritorial rights" and "I'M ABOVE THE LAW" things got old so fast, besides that, you know, we had a pretty clear buildup to who we wanted to go after in the conclusion of the 4th case of that game?
I obviously have bias in favor of I2 as it's my favorite in the franchise by a long shot, but I feel the culprit of its final case gave me so many vibes of of JFA case 4 culprit, and I say that in the best sense possible.
 

fogbadge

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So it's Fulbright but not really because that guy was dead all along and instead it's this boogeyman character with 0 buildup or hint regarding his existence throughout the game until nearly the end? and with a very basic personality trait and motivation at that? Fantastic writing you guys.
Investigations 1 is also pretty bad about it given how it feels they just wanted to have a high charge politician being taken down, and the build up for that is simply not worth it as the whole "extraterritorial rights" and "I'M ABOVE THE LAW" things got old so fast, besides that, you know, we had a pretty clear buildup to who we wanted to go after in the conclusion of the 4th case of that game?
did he need build up?
 

Bobthealligator

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I'm glad turnabout Amnesia is at the bottom of the barrel, there's probably cases that frustrate me more overall, but that thing as a whole feels like such a pointless setup to force you through a tutorial again, and I guess I won't forgive it for introducing us to what's by far my least favorite character in the entire franchise, Maggey. Pretty cool to see I2 cases being pretty well regarded as a whole too, although I feel sorta bad for Steel Samurai, I'd easily classify it above just about any non-I2-post OG trilogy case, love the culprit in it, but I guess Sal Manellas dated 1337 speak is a point against it.
I didn't like Turnabout Samurai personally.
It doesn't make any sense.
1. This case is basically the reason that 3 day trials never happen again, it just drags on and on and could easily have been wrapped up in 2 days (in regards to all the plot points)
2. You prove your client's innocence by the end of the first day, which leads to the messy progression from that point on.
3. Dee Vasquez's motive doesn't make sense. She hadn't actually commited a crime yet tried to cover it up anyway. And doing so was in itself obstruction. You can tell the writers wrote themselves into a corner with this one and weren't entirely sure how to wrap it up.
In fact I think the only good things about this case is the Steel Samurai running gag that comes from it and the infinitely better 2-4 which wouldn't really have worked without it.
 
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Leotsune

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Investigations 1 is also pretty bad about it given how it feels they just wanted to have a high charge politician being taken down, and the build up for that is simply not worth it as the whole "extraterritorial rights" and "I'M ABOVE THE LAW" things got old so fast, besides that, you know, we had a pretty clear buildup to who we wanted to go after in the conclusion of the 4th case of that game?
Investigations 1 may have a weak final case but at least we got the iconic: "My final chance to take down Quercus Alba... I can’t mess up this chance I’ve been given!" and its exactly because of what you mentioned why this phrase is meme'd, things drag on for sooo long it becomes stale and boring.
Man, investigations2 is such an improvement from the first one...
 
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did he need build up?
I'd say so yeah, most of the culprits have some degree of decent personality, motivation or twist to them, the final antagonist of DD has none of that because he's essentially an off screen ghost with like no character
if it was the real Fulbright that turned out to be some sort of sociopath or dual personality (to give examples) then it'd have been a decent enough twist, but because, you know, the real Fulbright was dead long before the games events and this was all some faker with no name, a real underwhelming character trait and booty tier motivations, then it kinda falls flat. Imagine if every case ended with the culprit being a John Doe, a character that only appears to be incarcerated after every other witness testified and had no screen prior, that's how the secret spy feels.
I didn't like Turnabout Samurai personally.
It doesn't make any sense.
1. This case is basically the reason that 3 day trials never happen again, it just drags on and on and could easily have been wrapped up in 2 days (in regards to all the plot points)
2. You prove your client's innocence by the end of the first day, which leads to the messy progression from that point on.
3. Dee Vasquez's motive doesn't make sense. She hadn't actually commited a crime yet tried to cover it up anyway. And doing so was in itself obstruction. You can tell the writers wrote themselves into a corner with this one and weren't entirely sure how to wrap it up.
In fact I think the only good things about this case is the Steel Samurai running gag that comes from it and the infinitely better 2-4 which wouldn't really have worked without it.
But 3 day trials happens throughout the rest of the first game too, I don't remember very well the structure of following games, but Samurai wasn't the only time this happened.
I don't disagree with your 2nd point, but I feel this is a common occurence for the series, or how other players claim they find other inconsistencies in the testimonies that simply aren't scripted to be broken at that point (I dunno examples as I don't remember this being an issue in my playthroughs, but it's a complain I've heard enough to believe it's common).
Take this as the game being faulty in not properly explaining, but I like to believe Deeva simply didn't want to uncover the accident from years ago, how she blackmailed an employee or just being in court in general, her aloof dialogue throughout the majority of the game makes it feel she doesn't want to be bothered.
Leotsune Leotsune
watch out for the way your post was formatted, it unveils the spoilers we posted and shows what you wrote as a quote. But yeah, I agree Investigations 2 was miles (heh) above the first one, a true surprise given I had like no expectations after playing that one.
 
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fogbadge

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I'd say so yeah, most of the culprits have some degree of decent personality, motivation or twist to them, the final antagonist of DD has none of that because he's essentially an off screen ghost with like no character
if it was the real Fulbright that turned out to be some sort of sociopath or dual personality (to give examples) then it'd have been a decent enough twist, but because, you know, the real Fulbright was dead long before the games events and this was all some faker with no name, a real underwhelming character trait and booty tier motivations, then it kinda falls flat. Imagine if every case ended with the culprit being a John Doe, a character that only appears to be incarcerated after every other witness testified and had no screen prior, that's how the secret spy feels.
that was kind of the point of the character, someone who was raised to be an emotionless assassin and easily blend in leaving no trace. an agent for a hostile foreign nation who was trained to be completely obedient. he was meant to be a blank ghost
 
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Eh, it'll be one of those things we'll have to disagree on. Like, if I ordered fries, they tasted awful and the cook told me that was their intention all along, they'd have succedeed, but I'd still consider the dish awful. That more or less sums up my feelings towards the culprit of DD final case.
 

fogbadge

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Eh, it'll be one of those things we'll have to disagree on. Like, if I ordered fries, they tasted awful and the cook told me that was their intention all along, they'd have succedeed, but I'd still consider the dish awful. That more or less sums up my feelings towards the culprit of DD final case.
nice use of an analogy that still makes it sound like im wrong
 

Hinata

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ok i think we need some kind of key system where, we can llok up which case is known by which number, for those of us who cant remember
1-X is Ace Attorney
2-X is Justice for All
3-X is Trials and Tribulations
4-X is Apollo Justice
5-X is Dual Destinies
6-X is Spirit of Justice
AAI-X is Ace Attorney Investigations
AAI2-X is Gyakuten Kenji 2
DGS-X is Dai Gyakuten Saiban
DGS2-X is Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2
PLAA-X is Professor Layton vs. Ace Attorney

So 1-4 is Turnabout Goodbyes, 3-5 is Bridge to the Turnabout, 4-1 is Turnabout Trump, 5-DLC is Turnabout Reclaimed, etc. etc.
 

fogbadge

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1-X is Ace Attorney
2-X is Justice for All
3-X is Trials and Tribulations
4-X is Apollo Justice
5-X is Dual Destinies
6-X is Spirit of Justice
AAI-X is Ace Attorney Investigations
AAI2-X is Gyakuten Kenji 2
DGS-X is Dai Gyakuten Saiban
DGS2-X is Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2
PLAA-X is Professor Layton vs. Ace Attorney

So 1-4 is Turnabout Goodbyes, 3-5 is Bridge to the Turnabout, 4-1 is Turnabout Trump, 5-DLC is Turnabout Reclaimed, etc. etc.
yeah its the cases themselves i cant fully remember the order of im fine with the game numbers and abbreviations
 
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yeah its the cases themselves i cant fully remember the order of im fine with the game numbers and abbreviations
I find it to be pretty easy when you remember the amount of cases there's in each game. Most of the time the order serves a purpose. The only cases I think you could change the order around are 3-2 (The Stolen Turnabout) with 3-3 (Recipe for Turnabout), and the non-Phoenix cases of Spirit of Justice can be ordered in any way. And maybe 4-2 (Turnabout Corner) with 4-3 (Turnabout Serenade), with the adjustment that Klavier needs to be introduced in 4-3.

If you can't remember what case a number is, try to recall the overall plot of the game.
 

fogbadge

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I find it to be pretty easy when you remember the amount of cases there's in each game. Most of the time the order serves a purpose. The only cases I think you could change the order around are 3-2 (The Stolen Turnabout) with 3-3 (Recipe for Turnabout), and the non-Phoenix cases of Spirit of Justice can be ordered in any way. And maybe 4-2 (Turnabout Corner) with 4-3 (Turnabout Serenade), with the adjustment that Klavier needs to be introduced in 4-3.

If you can't remember what case a number is, try to recall the overall plot of the game.
well i do remember the over all plot of each game, well the ones ive played, maybes its just been to long since i last played them
 
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I like to believe it won't be spring man, if only because they were super vague over which ARMS character it is and just making it the defacto mascot would be a pretty big "why even try to be mysterious about it?". Depending on the choice, I guess we could get our first promotion from non playable status being present in the game, which bodes pretty bad for whoever I hope for to be added in.
 

Bobthealligator

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and is that a bad thing?
It opens up the possibility of all 6 being assist trophies. Also don't judge be but I really don't want Waluigi.
Though I think Min Min makes sense. She is the most popular character and it showed in an official poll, could see her being the new mc going forward.
 
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Sabrewulf238

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I seriously hope it's not Spring Man. That could set a precedent for assist trophy promotions.
Clearly we're going to have very different opinions on this matter. :p

For obvious reasons I'm hoping it is Spring Man. (or at least maybe a "Hero" like fighter with multiple Arms characters)

It opens up the possibility of all 6 being assist trophies. Also don't judge be but I really don't want Waluigi.
Though I think Min Min makes sense. She is the most popular character and it showed in an official poll, could see her being the new mc going forward.
Even if assist trophies became possible, I really really doubt all six would be assist trophies. I couldn't see it being more than three assist trophies.
 
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I like to believe it won't be spring man, if only because they were super vague over which ARMS character it is and just making it the defacto mascot would be a pretty big "why even try to be mysterious about it?". Depending on the choice, I guess we could get our first promotion from non playable status being present in the game, which bodes pretty bad for whoever I hope for to be added in.
I'm of the belief that it'll be multiple ARMS characters, ala Bowser Jr, including the likes of Twintelle and Min-Min, but not Spring Man himself since he's already an assist trophy.
 

Sabrewulf238

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I'm scared of Spring Man being the one because he's a 3-in-1 deal that will cause the floodgates of speculation to crash.
I feel like it would be refreshing and open the doors wide open again. Not something to fear. Of course it does benefit me personally if Spring Man was promoted...but I'd argue even if it didn't benefit me it would still be healthier for speculation if it did happen.

Speculation has become very stagnant lately and stuck in the mud. (the mud being all the fan rules)

Just the fact alone that we're getting an Arms rep as the first fighter in this second pass is giving me hope that this pass is going to shake things up.
 
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So what does everyone think of Phoenix's current chances. I'm still gonna support him until the end but I honestly don't have a clue as to how likely he is anymore.
Phoenix has fan demand, has lots of fun and unique potential, him and his "Objection!" are pretty iconic in gaming worldwide, his series is probably getting more stuff on the Switch along with the first three games already there, and I thiiink he might be the king of the Visual Novel genre? So I still feel like he has a good shot!

Hoping, like people are guessing Arms 2, that Nintendo would also put Phoenix on their list for Sakurai for the reasons of being fun, unique, iconic, but also marketing either Ace Attorney 4 through 6 coming to the Switch, Ace Attorney 7, or both! I hope I'm not being biased but I try and consider lots of characters and stay open minded but it feels like Phoenix is one of the most likely at like a 60% chance? Definitely more likely is a Gen 8 Pokemon (hoping for Cinderace) since after Incineroar was shown off Sakurai revealed that they literally save a spot whenever they hear there's going to be a new Pokemon gen! But after Gen 8 Poke and Phoenix ummm...I really dunno...I think Geno's got a 50/50 shot?
 
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So what does everyone think of Phoenix's current chances. I'm still gonna support him until the end but I honestly don't have a clue as to how likely he is anymore.
Remember that Sakurai and Takumi are friends and Sakurai wrote a column on how the first Ace Attorney game stood out to him in 2005.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/83c4av
Obviously he's not a lock, but his chances aren't as dire as some people make it out to be. He certainly is one of the Top Capcom contenders.
 
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So what does everyone think of Phoenix's current chances. I'm still gonna support him until the end but I honestly don't have a clue as to how likely he is anymore.
Well, I guess that now the perception for third party characters isn't looking as good as before because of all the ARMS situation.
I still think he has a decent shot. In the end I'd be fine if he appears in Smash in some form, that's better than nothing.
 
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