I want her to get some new special moves based on Fairy type. It's a waste being Fairy and not taking advantage of it
Fairy Wind, Disarming Voice or Play Rough are all moves that would fit her very well
Relegate those to customs.
A fighting game isn't complete without that one joke character. Jigglypuff may be past its prime, but at least it fits the joke character role quite nicely now.
Not a joke character.
Some fairy elements could be used for its moves, yeah. I always thought something akin to Peach's up air with fairy dust would be a neat little nod. It can even use the fairy Z-crystal for a new final smash.
I was with you until you endorsed Z-moves.
I loved how Jiggypuff became more expressive in smash 4. I was fine with her emotionless stare, but smash 4 made her more adorable.
Personally, I'm fine with most of her moveset, but if they could change it to make her more useable that would be great.
I really do like her and her playstyle though. While I also want to keep the og 12 alive for as long as possible. It would be shame to lose her even without that. So I support her return. And hopefully with some buffs.
Quality post.
I think that as far as reworking her specials goes she needs to keep Sing (it's Jigglypuff, she uses sing, that's her thing) but for it to be made more useful, and obviously Rest because it's the unique thing she brings so Smash (well, one of the unique things). Pound is a useful special (or at least it has been in the past) but could be reworked to a fairy move (or even just renamed to Play Rough with the dust cloud effect happening if it hits a shield). Rollout could be pretty much exchanged for anything.
I agree with this whole line of reasoning, especially changing Pound to "Play Rough", at least nominally, even if it ends up being a more powerful version of the same move.
The only thing I somewhat disagree with is removing Rollout. Rollout isn't just an attack move---it's a legitimate recovery move, like Pikachu and Luigi's side specials. The only thing that sucks about are its properties, which you can blame (like most things) on Sakurai's brainlet notion of balance.
In my opinion, Hungrybox is showing us that SSBM Jigglypuff was at her core well-designed. Sing and Rollout definitely need reworking, but otherwise, that iteration was near perfection and guaranteed her viability, and so should be imitated as closely as possible---maybe even keeping the useless f-tilt (hey---a SSB character can't be literally perfect).
Jigglypuff will always be at the mercy of the direction they go with the gameplay, more so than any other veteran imo. She wasn't great in Melee just because her numbers or hitboxes were better, but also because the game's mechanics just suited her so well, it's much harder for her to thrive now with how safe shield and air dodges have become, plus many of the additions since Melee have made life much more difficult for her as her already limited forms of approach have been completely shut down.
I don't think we'll ever see Jiggs be top tier again, Smash has just changed too much, but if the gameplay edges closer to Melee's than before then she'll at least have a decent shot at being not awful, give her a few buffs on top of that and she might even be decent.
I like your post but I think her being awful in Brawl and tr4sh was because Sakurai intentionally made her awful. If he made her good, she'd have done just fine even with the physics changes. Rest being nigh useless and even more difficult to combo into ruined her and missed half the point of her character.
Outside of obvious buffs all I want is for her to get some of that anime personality.
I want a victory screen where the opponents are sleeping with marker mustaches drawn on them and Puff holding the marker up like a sword. I want that angry puffed up face she does when she loses. I want that cute little laugh she does as a taunt. Stuff like that.
This is the one thing that tr4sh did right; this direction needs to be pursued.
I like Sing as a concept, I just want it to be kinda good for once. It's hard to do that when she has a ohko move tho.
You know, I believe Sing was supposed to combo into Rest. I think that should be a thing. The tiny hitbox and inability to snooze aerial opponents wouldn't be bad if she had less endlag on sing or could cancel it at will. The worst thing about the move is that you can trap an opponent with the first frames but by the end of the move, they're already waking up---and no one is dumb enough to get hit by its latter frames.
I think Pound could be upgraded into Play Rough. Jigglypuff would go forward in the same motion as Pound, but if she hits someone she and her oponnent dissapear into a cloud of smoke and she hits them multiple times.
Not a bad way of thinking, but if you remember SSBM, Pound's mechanics are vital for Rest setups. I favor making Play Rough the new custom to replace Double Slap [?] in tr4sh.
Personally I'd axe Rollout, make Sing the new Neutral B move, and then something entirely new for the Up B move.
Not bad. I don't wholly agree, but this at least gets us somewhere.
I'd like to see Rollout replaced with either Dazzling Gleam or Hyper Voice as a chargeable special that creates a large hitbox around Jiggs as a defensive move, or at least a small projectile for a bit of desperately needed range. Hyper Voice could also be used as a disjoint Smash attack or a FS.
Liked for interesting suggestions.
If she does return, and it is with a new moveset, I'd be pretty pissed.
The only argument for her return is that she is familiar to fans with the moveset she has had.
As an individual character she is insignificant.
I definitely don't want her to get Falco'd. However, I want the Smash developers to start going out of their way to justify the inclusion of each and every attack the Pokemon have. They can call jab 'Double Slap', but which move is Jigg's nair supposed to represent, hm? Dair? D-smash? It should all correspond to something. There's no reason not to do this (plus, it would please fans to no end).
But, I do think if any pokemon have to cut, it really should fall on her or Charizard to leave the game at this point.
You already know who's gotta go.
I'm very proud of frog ninja for making his way to the top in popularity and stardom when he faced off against a freaking fox (that gets humanoid) starter which is every gamer teen's favorite animal alongside wolves or panthers. The frog did me proud.
It was engineered. It was no accident. Delphox and Chesnaught are terrible in comparison to it competitively, especially including Dreamworld abilities. Gamefreak was biased toward edgefrog from the get-go.
why should she and Charizard leave when Lucario is the least played pokemon in Smash?
they're going to value statistics over feelings/favoritism. Lucario had his opportunity to get a playerbase and he failed, while Greninja hasn't.
I hate Panderzard and Flukeario taking spots away from other 'mons, but I think if the Smash developers copied his design from Project M---which is basically a Shoto from traditional fighting games---then he'd be far more popular and playable, and in my view, acceptable.
I have that feeling towards Falco actually. He was more of a clone than Wolf while Falco's popularity has likely went down with him being rather weak in Smash 4 according to research. So should Falco's seniority really over take Wolf's popularity and uniqueness? I personally think Wolf should of been above Falco in priority.
I agree with you rationally. Sentimentally, I would oppose it. If I knew how they'd do Falco in tr4sh, I would have supported your proposal---similar enough characters, really.
Whatever irrelevant s**t about "nostalgia" is only your own opinion (which means NOTHING). Jigglypuff is relevant, relevant to people who play Smash. If she wasn't relevant, she'd be the last one picked on a daily basis.
Jigglypuff is technically the worst character in the game and still gets played more than Lucario. Really says something lol
I wonder about Mewtwo. Does that uptick in usage correspond to a patch that buffed him? If so, you can make the case that the reason why characters are underplayed is because people don't feel rewarded by playing them. Jigglypuff really is a unique character; for me, not even Kirby feels similar enough. She is indeed terrible in this game, but she scratches an itch like no other. On the other hand, Charizard and Lucario are poorly thought out. Comparing them to their Project M and Brawl Minus incarnations especially brings out how lacking they are as a playable character. What I'm saying is that it's possible their low usage has more to do with how they were implemented in SSB than with their popularity as characters in their own right.
I'm sceptical of usage arguments as reasons for including or excluding characters. Take
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike as an example. My impression is that Hugo isn't a super popular character, but where would the game be without it's giant grappler? He fills a niche that goes empty without him, and has an appeal for a certain section of the playerbase, however small that may be, which would be disappointed by his exclusion. Now take Sean. He's considered the worst character in the game, and so gets rarely played. But he was nerfed by a lot from Second Generation to 3S. His low usage in 3rd Strike likely corresponds to his implementation as a character, and not from people disliking his design and personality. All this applies to Super Smash Bros. just the same.
Funny enough, one of my personal favorite Pokemon will not be in Smash and was from Generation 1. (Gengar)
Got into Pokken though.
Jigglypuff was heavily based on a pre-existing character (Kirby)
ftfy
And how am I antagonizing when people come in her support thread saying she should be cut because other generations don't have enough "representation"? Maybe they should go to a Pokemon newcomer thread instead of hating on puff.
kek
Can we make Sing a taunt?
This is perhaps the single most useful suggestion in this entire thread.
I'd just be sad to see about every one of her taunts go, but for different reasons. My least favorite is the deflation, but it's most representative of what the Pokemon is. The wink is most representative of her character. The spin and pose might be my personal favorite, but it's less representative of the character than the wink. I'd be happy if the last two could get merged into one taunt so room be made for Sing.
make it so Rest heals her
Yes. Brawl Minus.
Jigglypuff has enough risk, more kill moves please.
That's not how she works, my guy. Besides, she has enough kill moves already, if you make SSBM the standard.
If we're keeping Rollout, make it so she can double jump after bouncing off a character. I hate that she enters a laggy, helpless state when connecting with this move - killing her outright if her opponent sits at the ledge with their shield up and she's charging it up offstage. With a double jump cancel, she can retreat from an opponent's retaliation after blocking it, or follow up with a F-air if she does manage to connect... We could even justify buffing it with faster charge up times or canceling the charge with shield like Sonic's Spin dash.
I totally agree about the problem here. I think your solution isn't bad at all, though I'm not entirely sold on it.
