Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Deleted member]

-1 Jigglypuff is just... bad. So, so bad. As @Routa said well, she's practically Wario without anything that makes Wario good. Yes, she has good air game and versatile aerials, but that doesn't matter that she's destroyed by shield and the loss of edgehogging making edgeguarding for her more difficult than it was before. She can't deal with disjoints. She can barely survive. Literally all of her specials are useless and her ground game is laughable. Her range is piss-poor. She can literally be punished for successfully performing her most risky move. There's almost nothing going for this character, she's definitely bottom 5. Maybe even bottom 3.

 

[nozzle3466]

+

Her matchups are underrated and people only look at her matchups against the top 10, shes a super viable secondary.

 

[Deleted member]

+

Her matchups are underrated and people only look at her matchups against the top 10, shes a super viable secondary.

What characters does she beat solidly other than ?

 

[Furret24]

What characters does she beat solidly other than ?

None. ;^)

I'd say Game and Watch is a decent secondary. He has a few decent matchups againsts the high tiers and does pretty good against the mid and low tier characters. He unfortunately does absolutely terrible in the matchups that matter most.

 

[IndigoSSB]

+

Her matchups are underrated and people only look at her matchups against the top 10, shes a super viable secondary.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, I sincerely hope so. If not, I can't think of one character that has as bad a matchup spread as Zelda (and no, I don't "only look at her matchups against the top 10")

 

[Goesasu]

Shulk +1. Only character loyalist will understand, he is at least as good as ike, and probably better, you trade power and easy combos for adaptability. If you dont have 200 hrs or more as a shulk main you will not understand and will believe he is bad. He needs total dedication to show his potential, even tough i wont argue that those hours put into sheik will give you easier results.

Robin +1 Similar to shulk, needs dedicarion (less).

Toon link -1.Clearly worse than optimal shulk and robin.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, I sincerely hope so. If not, I can't think of one character that has as bad a matchup spread as Zelda (and no, I don't "only look at her matchups against the top 10")

Pretty much this. Zelda literally counters nobody in SSB4 except like I said before, and MAYBE . With the game becoming more aggressive, she can't remotely viably compete with the direction the game is going. Not to mention she can't approach reliably or camp out opponents. And that's saying something considering how terrible she was in Brawl despite that game being mostly defensive-based.

 

[Furret24]

Pretty much this. Zelda literally counters nobody in SSB4 except like I said before, and MAYBE . With the game becoming more aggressive, she can't remotely viably compete with the direction the game is going. Not to mention she can't approach reliably or camp out opponents. And that's saying something considering how terrible she was in Brawl despite that game being mostly defensive-based.

I guess she's bad by design. So bad. Such shame.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Her MU spread I won't deny is quite bad, sure she doesn't really counter anyone.....but just making sure by counters do you mean like.....65:35 MUs? Or 60:40? If the former, yea pretty much nobody, but out of all those bottom characters who else would even have one? I doubt even any midtier characters counter people like that.
If the latter, she may only have like...idk 2?
But if talking about the former in terms of people beating her by that much....it's actually not as much as you would think, debatably shiek, ZSS, Tink? are the ones who can really counter her.
But yea her MU spread is mainly near evens/slight loses, to notable loses with very few true counters(65:35, again if this is your way of saying counter) while she only slightly beats a handful(probably around 10 maybe slightly less) characters, now I could be wrong, but from what I can gather this seems to be around it.

Btw if anyone may have a worser MU spread, Jiggs MAY be a contender

 

[Deleted member]

Now that you mention it, yeah... Jiggs' MU spread is pretty bad as well. Pretty much all the top tiers body her and even low tiers like Dedede and Bowser give her a hell of a lot of trouble.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

What characters does she beat solidly other than ?

Herself?

 

[Vyrnx]

- Just because he is the most out of place. Not in the same tier as at all, not that I think he's awful.

And good thing we can't counter vote Zelda since she's bottom tier, while we're arguing over other characters two people will "unanimously" up vote Zelda and we can't even do anything about it.

 

[CyroX]

+1
I strongly believe Doctor Mario should move higher in that tier (Between Bowser Jr. and Robin)
-He still has combos that work well (D-throw, u-air, n-air)
-He hits like a truck
-His tornado off stage is a great kill move.
-His vitamins are great for spacing and zoning
-While his up-B is garbage recovery wise, it is a pretty good kill move when you hit the sweet-spot.
-Approaching with his back air is really good.

 

[Newtonjar]

Herself?

 

[HerpFish]

+For reasons that have already been said. I would have downvoted Link because he's not as good as the characters where he is, but he is definitely not as bad as some of the characters in the tier below.

If there is a patch, I will cry if they don't give Bowser Jr. a legitimate buff that's not on one of the worst projectiles in the game, the cannonball. Just fix the overlapping hitboxes that get him KO'ed earlier. Please. Or the light hit after an up-B issue. I'll take almost anything at this point. And of course the direct is happening while I have class. :/

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Is it a gif or no?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

-1 He is the worst character. It's hard for him to hit anyone with his horrid range, his attacks are way too easy to shield, and he has a severe lack of speed.

 

[Wintermelon43]

-1 He is the worst character. It's hard for him to hit anyone with his horrid range, his attacks are way too easy to shield, and he has a severe lack of speed.

Actually, her range isn't bad, really. Not good, but not bad EITHER.

Additionally, she has no lack on speed. She has the second fastest air speed. Only her run speed is bad, and you shoudn't even be running much anyway.

Only the second thing was true. You obviousaly know nothing about the character (Not even the gender was ok, Jigglypuff's a girl. But that doesn't mean much unless you main the character, which you don't)

 

[Furret24]

Actually, her range isn't bad, really. Not good, but not bad EITHER.

Additionally, she has no lack on speed. She has the second fastest air speed. Only her run speed is bad, and you shoudn't even be running much anyway.

Only the second thing was true. You obviousaly know nothing about the character (Not even the gender was ok, Jigglypuff's a girl. But that doesn't mean much unless you main the character, which you don't)

I agree on her atleast being fairly fast, but she's defiently lacking in range.

That second thing is pretty major too, since shields are so important in this game, yet Jigglypuff is more or less destroyed by them. She has no safe options on shield due to her terrible range and grab game.

I don't see why gender matters either. If they want to refer to her as a male (I refer to her as a female though, since the idea of a crossdressing Pokemon terrifies me), so be it.
a crossdressing jigglypuff would make for an "interesting" fanfic though.

 

[aεrgiα]

well... sadly no counter votes... zelda lolwut :/ shes gonna shoot up to tier 3 at this rate ;p

-
imo worst char in the game is easily 1111 ... shield just utterly destroys him, he cant kill whatsoever, its really really sad pretty much his only kill options are his smashes, and they are some of the worst smashes in this game imo :/ his recovery is absolutely laughable, id rather have docs recovery tbh, at least u have a proper hitbox to protect the measly distance u are traveling he loses all those movement, recovery and killing options when limited to 1111, and medium size means basically no combos...
may change my vote to + later on bc i think this guy has a lot going for him.

also ive seen it said a few times but why do people think is a contender for worst? i know shes not good at all, but i dont think shes that bad:/

also on as to why people dont use him/her(what gender is smash pika?). im gonna leave out character loyalists/fans for obvious reasons. pika has the issue that "its" playstyle is not as "extreme" as other top/high tiers, so if people are looking for a fast combo character, they will probably look to sheik, mario(not that fast but therefore better combos), zss or fox, if they are looking for a punish character the go to is zss, followed by ryu, weegee, rosa(to an extent), if what they desire is a defensive character rosa, sonic and villager come to mind first... that imo is the biggest reason why i think pika has a lack of mains, he isnt the premiere go to character for any playstyle, he can play all/ most, but doesnt excel compared to other characters.

also on shayas post, whilst he does say some true things, little nitpick: i hate, and i mean absolutely abhor, the "if you think hes good pick him up and get results to prove it" argument, that is, imo, one of the most ignorant/arrogant things u can say, theres this thing called talent, it sucks but its true, i could pick up sheik(best char in the game), work my ass off every day but i still wouldnt become the next zero, heck i probably wouldnt even get any impressive results. why? because i have average(read slow) reactions, my mechanical skill isnt the greatest and i often overthink things/dont think other things through. and those are just inborn circumstances, theres also things like work, uni, school etc. to consider, because a lot of people dont have the time to put in the practice needed to overcome inborn deficits... im sorry shaya (labeouf) even if i wake up and work hard at it, my dreams will still be dreams TT_TT

 

[MarioMeteor]

Didn't the Lucario/Sheik myth died a month ago?

It's not a myth, that's actually one of the few matchups Sheik actually looses in.

 

[Furret24]

It's not a myth, that's actually one of the few matchups Sheik actually looses in.

Explain, I'm intrigued.

 

[aεrgiα]

Explain, I'm intrigued.

because sheik cant kill and aura... i always reply with: say hello to rage and these guys:,,,,,,, and... yeah, sadly it doesnt work that way i will say though that i think its one of sheiks worse mu, still think its slightly in her favor but meh

 

[MarioMeteor]

Explain, I'm intrigued.

Sheik is infamous for having next to no kill power. Lucario is infamous for killing people at ******** percents. Sheik is infamous for doing lots of damage at a time. Lucario gets stronger the more damage he takes. So, the 12th lightest character in the game is constantly bringing this masochistic jackal closer and closer to a state that allows him to easily dispose of the former, while still keeping his stocks intact.
That's the gist of it. Granted, it's a rather dumbed-down explanation, but you get the point. Honestly, it's the reason why I picked up Lucario. "Oh, you wanna F-air me across the stage? Fine, I'll KO you at 30%."
Keep in mind, though, it's not a massive advantage. Sheik is just so much faster than Lucario. Maybe if this were Brawl...

 

[Furret24]

because sheik cant kill and aura... i always reply with: say hello to rage and these guys:,,,,,,, and... yeah, sadly it doesnt work that way i will say though that i think its one of sheiks worse mu, still think its slightly in her favor but meh

What about aura?

Sheik is infamous for having next to no kill power. Lucario is infamous for killing people at ******** percents. Sheik is infamous for doing lots of damage at a time. Lucario gets stronger the more damage he takes. So, the 12th lightest character in the game is constantly bringing this masochistic jackal closer and closer to a state that allows him to easily dispose of the former, while still keeping his stocks intact.
That's the gist of it. Granted, it's a rather dumbed-down explanation, but you get the point. Honestly, it's the reason why I picked up Lucario. "Oh, you wanna F-air me across the stage? Fine, I'll KO you at 30%."
Keep in mind, though, it's not a massive advantage. Sheik is just so much faster than Lucario. Maybe if this were Brawl...

This sounds more even, since Lucario doesn't have all that good frame data. Still better than most though.

 

[Deleted member]

-

 

[aεrgiα]

What about aura?

This sounds more even, since Lucario doesn't have all that good frame data. Still better than most though.

what do u mean "what about aura"? basically because sheik cant kill lucario he reaches high %(in theory at least) and then aura and rage mean he makes short work of her, in practice its a very "extreme" mu from my experience, either sheik can kill lucario with her 50/50s and has a field day, or she cant and then it gets very bad for her and shes the one who gets bodied, i think its in her favour because its easier for her to kill lucario before he reaches those extreme % than it is for lucario to survive that long

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Only the second thing was true. You obviousaly know nothing about the character (Not even the gender was ok, Jigglypuff's a girl. But that doesn't mean much unless you main the character, which you don't)

Actually, Sakurai said all the Smash Pokémon were genderless in an interview, so we're both wrong if anything.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Actually, Sakurai said all the Smash Pokémon were genderless in an interview, so we're both wrong if anything.

How could Pikachu be gender less when the tail shows its a boy? Not sure about the rest though, but Pika I definitely know.

 

[CleanOgre]

-

 

[Furret24]

what do u mean "what about aura"? basically because sheik cant kill lucario he reaches high %(in theory at least) and then aura and rage mean he makes short work of her, in practice its a very "extreme" mu from my experience, either sheik can kill lucario with her 50/50s and has a field day, or she cant and then it gets very bad for her and shes the one who gets bodied, i think its in her favour because its easier for her to kill lucario before he reaches those extreme % than it is for lucario to survive that long

You said that his matchup against her is similar to heavy weights but Lucario's matchup is pretty different.

 

[aεrgiα]

You said that his matchup against her is similar to heavy weights but Lucario's matchup is pretty different.

ofc its different... thats not what i was saying, what i was "trying" to say that by the logic of "sheik cant kill, and lucario gets stronger the more hes hurt" and therefore its in lucarios favour, all the heavies should have a favourable mu too, they are even harder to kill and all benefit from rage...

 

[Furret24]

ofc its different... thats not what i was saying, what i was "trying" to say that by the logic of "sheik cant kill, and lucario gets stronger the more hes hurt" and therefore its in lucarios favour, all the heavies should have a favourable mu too, they are even harder to kill and all benefit from rage...

The difference is that Lucario is not all that vulnerable to gimp and has aura, while the other heavies do not.

 

[Stick Dude]

-1

 

[aεrgiα]

The difference is that Lucario is not all that vulnerable to gimp and has aura, while the other heavies do not.

the "sadly it doesnt work like that" was in there for a reason?
and read my previous post again, i said "by the logic of..." i never talked about anything else, my point being exactly that theres more to the mu than aura and sheik cant kill...

and on your second point... trust me, theres not much difference between dying to a lucario aura and rage fsmash at 30% and dying to a bowser rage(without aura) fsmash at 40%...

 

[Deleted member]

Real talk, if I had another vote I would've voted or lower. The latter especially, at least Palutena has great aerials and decent combos out of down throw. 1111 Brawler has just absolutely no good tools against anyone, but even then I really want Jigglypuff to go down.

 

[Furret24]

the "sadly it doesnt work like that" was in there for a reason?
and read my previous post again, i said "by the logic of..." i never talked about anything else, my point being exactly that theres more to the mu than aura and sheik cant kill...

and on your second point... trust me, theres not much difference between dying to a lucario aura and rage fsmash at 30% and dying to a bowser rage(without aura) fsmash at 40%...

Missed that first part.

Well, this was a waste of time.

 

[SherrdreamZ]

+1

I feel Robin has improved with the Shield changes enough to warrant higher than they are.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What about aura?

This sounds more even, since Lucario doesn't have all that good frame data. Still better than most though.

You could argue that it's even, but I still believe it's slightly in his favor. If it weren't for the fact that all the other high/top tiers destroy him, Lucario could be one of the best characters in the game, really.

 

[Furret24]

You could argue that it's even, but I still believe it's slightly in his favor. If it weren't for the fact that all the other high/top tiers destroy him, Lucario could be one of the best characters in the game, really.

Reminds me of Brawl Game and Watch (along with ROB and Ike to an extent, since they're mainly held back by their abysmal matchups against Meta Knight). If he didn't get destroyed by 4 of the best characters in the game and lose to almost everyone else above (the remaining ones are even), he would be a lot better than 16th.

Back to Lucario though, I believe he's still a great character.