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(I feel like he's been sold short on the tier list. He's easily a Top 5 character, and he just keeps getting better.)
+1
So are either of you going to explain these random Little Mac upvotes? I personally believe hes one of the worst characters in the entire games, if not solely due to his absolutely terrible recovery. Any character with a somewhat decent edgeguard and a way to get him off stage can easily kill Little Mac at percentages so low that he envies Jigglypuff. All it takes is one backthrow, or smash attack to get him off stage and one hit to kill him. All he really has going for him is his strength, speed, super armour and maybe KO Punch, but does all that really matter when you can be killed at sub-50%?+
).Please tell me, what characters does Jiggly beat besides other bottom tiers? Characters like even Mewtwo, Zelda and Samus more to offer than her despite their own major issues. At least they can get reward off of throws (Mewtwo and Zelda have kill throws, Samus has a combo throw) and actually have a ground game. Samus has good rep thanks to dedicated players like ESAM and Depth showing what she can be capable of. Jigglypuff only has Serynder and he's gotten barely anywhere with her, and Hungrybox has pretty much dropped her for serious play.
Bowserboy3
pretty much said what i was going to say... Plz Bowserboy3 stop reading my mind!
There are worse characters. Ideally I'd like to move Palutena down to bottom, but I'll settle for gunner.
If you really do want to vote Palutena down, you'd probably be better off doing that, as from where we are at this point in time, it seems Zelda will be going up anyway.Oh, wait? We only get one vote? If that's the case, please disregard my first post where I vote and take this into account instead.
+1
It'll be entertaining if Swordfighter ends up in last again (Which will most likely happen at this point)
Pretty much ever other low/bottom tier. Mewtwo is a walking hurtbox, however strong he is, and he gets destroyed by too many people, Zelda has frame data that would make Ganondorf laugh, and I could count on one finger how many of Samus' moves actually work. Then, of course, there's Ganondorf, Palutena, the Miis, I could go on.
I know. I don't understand all these freaking Zelda votes. She's a garbage character with absolutely nothing going for her. I think people who upvote her are just trying to be "rebels" or something.
How naive. Let me guess, you still use that "Everything wrong with Samus" video as evidence of saying Samus is bad? Wise up.
This. It really annoys me when people just plop down a vote with no explanation at all but that's just me.
Bowserboy3
just said above me.
no, its not just you. theres no use debating it though, in the end all youll get is a "well its my opinion, who are you to tell me its wrong"This. It really annoys me when people just plop down a vote with no explanation at all but that's just me.
Also I completely agree with everything
) and close to useless anywhere else, the phantom slash thing is good as an edgeguarding tool and thats it, jabs laggy, ftilt is laggy(or at least feels laggy, i dunno the frame data off the top of my head), fair and bair are laggy etc. i mean what playstyle can zelda even play, what was the idea behind her design? what is she intended to do? kill people at 90 when others get them to those % in ffa's? before the game came out i decided im would main zelda, then i actually played the game TT_TT
His neutral is not that great though. He is safe on sheild but there's little he can do to someone in sheild. His throws are not threatening and having a good fsmash does not make you a good character. As his fsmash is not hard to avoid. Marth is just a bad character in this game as weird as that seems he is not relevant in the metagame which mid tier would imply.
Anyways I would like add that most of Marth's attacks are relatively safe on shield (at least when tippered). Many seem to forget how important the safety is in Sm4sh. Also unlike other Sword wielders Marth has good OoS option. Ofc I am talking about his Uber Duper Up-B OoS. Add to that Marth has far from bad disadvantage state when you compare to rest of the sword wielders thanks to his air and fall speed, weight and Up-B. Also you can pretty much just throw out thous F-Smashes. Oh and the F-smash is one of the best punish tools in game. As I said he might not have the best advantage state, but he doesn't have a bad disadvantage state and his neutral isn't bad at all. Like Bowserboy3 said Marth is one of the few characters that kinda need to use these special movement techniques. Overall he doesn't fit very well in the tier he is currently in.
I wrote a very long reasoning on my computer couple of days a go and it seems like I forgot to save it... Damn me and my poor memory :S
well not to get too involved in the marth debate(i know next to nothing about that char, i dont enjoy playing as him and i didnt in any past itterations either so my knowledge about him is limited to what ive heard) but i disagree with the last part of ur statement, mid tier(at least tier 4, where marth would move to) characters are mostly not relevant(toon link, greninja, lucas, roy, falco and link) in the meta, unless with not relevant u mean not good enough at all, which i dont think is true, that only goes for the last two tiers imo or maybe even just the last one :/
In my opinion the tier has some characters that are relevant like greninja is proving to be. The rest I think are characters that are on the brink of being relevant like toon link and megaman. The two dlc characters should stay around there because they have not been explored. But they could fall or rise depending on how they develop.
The thing is that Marth's throws aren't damaging throws or combo throws, but throws that give him more room to breath. Having a good F-smash doesn't make a character good, but the fact that he has such a powerful and quick move forces foes to slow down a bit. The thing is that even tho his F-Smash isn't that hard to avoid it is still kinda hardish to punish. Quick F-Smash allows once again create him more space which he wants. His neutral is avarage, but still a bit better than some in the higher tiers. The idea of Marth is to create traps with his swings. Miss place yourself and boom you take some serious damage. Ofc you don't see this often, but the main reason is that most of the Marth mains aren't using him correctly. They still think Marth is the master of disjointed combos. Also when people talk about Marth they seem to forget to compare him to rest of the cast. As I stated before he has far from bad disadvantage state compared to lets say Ike or Roy. Roy and Ike cannot escape lets say Mario combos as easily as Marth. Marth just like Ike requires extreamly good fundamentals from the player to be good. Also as far as I know he doesn't have a bad MU spread. You know why Ike is that high in tier list? He has the best or 2nd best punish game. Marth isn't that far away from Ike when it comes to punishing. You know why Sheik is the best in game atm? She is the safest character within game. Once again Marth isn't that far away from her. There are a lot of thing going for him that are ignored.
I guess I worded that poorly. The reason I don't take it as seriously as I should is because I don't take a lot of the people in this thread that seriously. Like I said, I disliked all of the counter voting I saw in the last two tier voting sessions, and every time I came back I just facepalmed and thought to myself that this was a complete mess. Judging by the fact that counter votes aren't allowed, Browny probably wasn't happy about it either. Voting doesn't usually work like that anyway. Usually it's majority wins, so in my mind if a character has +12 votes and -11 votes that character should still move up because no other character probably made it to +12 votes. If people just voted for who they felt strongly about with reasoning and without thinking of counter voting, I probably would feel more inclined to do the same. But I digress.I have to thank
Anyways about the reasoning... I will give you an example. Let's say I vote -
What I am trying to say is that vote without any kind of reasoning doesn't bring anything to the discussion and isn't taken seriously due to that. In my opinion these kind of votes should be ignored, but I'm not OP in this thread so...
What is the point of this list if people vote here just for fun? The thing is that SmashBoards is known for up to date Smash Bros information so having thing that is complytely false is... well... I hope you get my point. Also as I have stated before tier list should reflect the current Meta, knowledge of characters and their MUs and theory.
Oh also was a mix of a joke and a pointer. If people just vote a character that they think should not be in bottom tier without checking characters in other tiers and comparing them... well you gonna have a bad time...
I would seriously like to know what Zelda has that I am not aware of? Because as far as I know she has nothing special going for her self or anything that she is good at.
Anyways...
I would like to hear the reasoning behind this. If I could have the reasoning without bias... well that would be great.
Also I have really hard time writing anything due to poor linguistic and dyslexia. But I hope you guys get what I mean with my writing.
Having played against a pretty good marth alot his punish game is not that great. His neutral is to terrible but not great. Most of what he had is mediocre with a bad advantage state. He needs combos because good damage on hit is also not great. He's mediocre at most things. Roy in all reality is probably in that tier but he has a chance with more development.
u facepalmed after seeing the counter votes? i dont know whether u worded that wrong but from how i understood it, the explanation u gave afterwards kinda made me face palm... u know, about the +12 and -11 votes thing, lets put it into words instead of numbers then, 11 people think that (s)he should go down, and then theres 12 people who think that (s)he should stay in the tier, this means that theres a majority that thinks (s)he should stay in the tier, what your saying is (s)he should move despite there being more people thinking (s)he should stay? if u ignore countervotes, ur basically saying: everyone is allowed to think a character should move a tier, but no one is allowed to disagree with their opinion...
I don't need videos, I've had firsthand experience at Samus dash attacking right past people. And since you want to bring that up, it's worth mentioning that everything in that video is accurate, with the exception of up smash, such as Jigglypuff being able to walk under Samus' Missiles.
Did I ever say Jigglypuff beat Samus?
Welcome to Smash 4, everybody has 0 to 40 combos.
More movement options? I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff's air speed is faster than Mewtwo's ground and air speed combined.
Here's a dollar, go buy a sense of humor. Ganondorf has punishes, but they're rather hard to use when he's bring Fairplaned across the stage.
There are so many things wrong with this. #1: She has six jumps, double aerials are a non-issue. #2: It's not like her DACUS was particularly useful. #3. Rest still reliably KOs at 50% and up, which is rather early for this game. #4. The increase in shield breaks benefits Jigglypuff as well, considering she has possible the most famous shield-breaking move in the series.
Rest is strong enough as is, it's the fact that she can't combo into it that hurts. It's disjointed to have such a strong move on a character with so little KO potential. That is her main weakness. If they would just, say, make up throw kill, she'd be a much more effective character.
I could tell. The amount of salt in that one post damn near melted my phone.
Exactly. What's so difficult to understand again? If the majority thinks a character should move, then it should. That's the way it usually works, and it would help keep discussion in this thread more on track. The point you're trying to make against my reasoning eludes me. If there are 11 people who think a character should move down, there aren't likely going to be another 11 people +1 who think otherwise. From what I've noticed in this thread, usually there's a general consensus regarding what character is getting the most attention. It's why Ryu moved up and Yoshi moved down despite all of the counter votes I saw for them. It apparently wasn't enough. A situation like the one you describe is pretty rare.
erm no, if the vote is +12 and -11 the majority thinks the char should NOT move? and thats what the counter votes are... people disagreeing with the fact that said character should move? its not like i countervote for the sole purpose of annoying people who think a character should move o.O i counter vote because i STRONGLY disagree with what they said, will the majority agree with me? maybe not, but theres no guarantee the majority will agree with me if i vote on a different character either :/ i fail to understand ur logic or what you are trying to get at
To reply to these first hand, as poor as this is going to sound, people need to "git gud" at the dash attack, and understand all of her moves before throwing dummies out of the pram. It's not hard to hit at all. It doesn't hit close range, but why would you be using that option close range anyway when Dtilt hits close range, and is quicker? That video is cancer. It's the main reason everybody shuns Samus off as bad, when in fact that most of the stuff it mentions isn't actually a problem. You kinda did say Jiggly beat Samus in a round about way. When asked "which low tiers does Jigglypuff actually beat", you replied with "pretty much every low/bottom tier", and then even went on to mention Samus, so in a round about way, yes, you did. Everybody has combos in Smash 4... except Jigglypuff... To be fair, she can string Fair into eachother, but it's escapable if the player is good. And not every character has 0 to 40% true combos. Yes, maybe 0 to 40 read strings, but not true combos. Samus has some of the most highly damaging true combos in the game.
Please stop making posts about Samus.
In my opinion, the counter voting got way too out of hand in the last two voting sessions. If people disagree with another person or two's vote for a character, they shouldn't go ahead and counter vote. That person should instead vote for the character they feel strongly about. If the majority of the thread happens to agree with the vote, then that character will move instead of the character a few people voted for that the person was initially thinking about counter voting. Yeah, there's no guarantee that everybody will agree with you, but that's the risk you take when contributing to a vote. It's like the risk you take when you go into any Smash match. You'll either win or lose that round.erm no, if the vote is +12 and -11 the majority thinks the char should NOT move? and thats what the counter votes are... people disagreeing with the fact that said character should move? its not like i countervote for the sole purpose of annoying people who think a character should move o.O i counter vote because i STRONGLY disagree with what they said, will the majority agree with me? maybe not, but theres no guarantee the majority will agree with me if i vote on a different character either :/ i fail to understand ur logic or what you are trying to get at
well then an example from me, i felt pika was in the correct place in tier one, yet a lot of people thought he should go down, there was NO character i felt should have moved from that tier one, so who do i vote? do i let pika drop? and in the case i did vote for a different character to outdo the pika downvotes(lets use rosa for arguments sake), then browny tallys up the votes, pika gets -13 and rosa gets -14(just made up numbers) so he decides both should go down... welp, thats completely against my opinion... so is my opinion not allowed now that it clashes with someone elses opinion?!? u see, the reason why people countervote instead of voting a different character is because they feel MORE strongly about the character they are countervoting than they do about any other character they might have voted for. :/
My explanation was that Jigglypuff was overall a better character than Samus. You can be a better character than someone while still losing to them, i.e. Mega Man/Luigi, Sheik/Lucario, etc.
Up tilt to Rest is guarenteed at 0%. Boom, there's a combo.
As unrelated as it may be, it's also worth noting that Jigglypuff is much less susceptible to combos than Samus.
Jigglypuff uses her air speed better than Mewtwo, her aerials and her air speed cooperate better. You can have all the options in the air, but it won't matter if you just don't have the mobility.
Jigglypuff and Zelda aren't those types of characters. Ganondorf is a brick wall who can afford to rush right in and start swinging. Jigglypuff is defensive, bait-and-punish character.
That was a different Jigglypuff. This Puff is better off not approaching.
Instead, she can fade back her aerials and avoid being punished, which is a good, if not superior substitute.
Swift? Unlike other characters with DACUSes, Jigglypuff's up smash wasn't fast. Grounded approach options aren't really missed anyway, considering the...less than desirable state of Jigglypuff's current ground game. A DACUS wouldn't make much difference.
Not really. Jigglypuff shouldn't be sitting in her shield anyway, not long enough to get it broken. Attacking Jigglypuff's shield is potentially lethal, too, because if your spacing is a little bit off, you're getting Rested, or at least Fairplaned.
Rest kills mid to lightweights at 50% without Rage. It'll take sometime to kill heavies, but anybody lighter than Robin will die with half his stock left. The reason why Rest doesn't have combos into it is because her moveset doesn't allow it to.
While I don't agree with you on everything there, I think your absolutely right on the nose with Rest, it's not nearly as powerful as it needs to be, and it's lost a lot of it's intimidation value, although I think the non-rage average is closer to 59-60% than 70, 70% sounds a lot more like Brawl Rest to me.
.
If the majority feels like a character should rise or drop, then they should. There it is in one sentence.
ok fair play, if u wanna drop it ill drop it too, ill just leave my closing remark here too
now this is a different issue entirely, and sadly it isnt limited to counter votes, main bias and people trampling on well written opinions with simple "well i disagree, live with it" are happening even in "normal" votes (if u wanna count countervotes differently) im sorry i dont see how the fact that its a "counter" means that the vote is anything less than that, a vote on what I think...
We could go on like this all day. Samus may be more suceptible to combos, but Samus can live well into 150%, when Jigglypuff barely lives at 70%. Actually, I think this is a reason why nobody fears rest as much any more, as generally, it is possible for you to finish Jigglypuff off before she has the chance to be able to kill you with Rest. Honestly, I hope they make some sort of change to Rest, making it more threatening, because it just really isn't this time around. Another problem with Jigglypuff is that she doesn't really beat any characters higher up in the tier list, where as characters like Samus beat DK, Peach, Luigi etc. Up Tilt to Rest may be a true combo at 0%, but how unorthodox and tough to land when Utilt has such a small sweetspot, and only hits behind her? Also, Jiggly can be punished at that low percent, so the trade off it worse. Of course, conflicting opinions, but there is no way Jigglypuff is better than Samus, not when Samus has many more things going for her. But for me it's hard to place Jigglypuff in a fair position. She can do some neat stuff, but that's it, it's just neat, not great. While I don't think she is the worst character in the game, I certainly think she is below Samus in this list as of now. This Puff now might be better off not approaching, but it doesn't change the fact that she used to be able to, and lacks now any real safe way to approach the opponent. I think you may have misunderstood what I pointed out about her DACUS. I mentioned swift as in it allowed her to quickly surprise her opponent on the ground. The Usmash itself isn't fast, but the fact that she goes from slow dash speed into a quick boost of speed gave her a good grounded option, she now has no real safe grounded approach option. Puff in old games could also fade back with aerials to avoid being punished, but they could also do more in terms of approaching in the air as mentioned before, and again, being able to perform 2 aerials just made fade back aerials better. And as regards to shields, no character in the game should be sitting in shields all the time, but with shield damage ever more powerful, characters don't have as long to stay in shield, nor as long until they break. This just hurts Jigglypuff, no matter what way you look at it.
I don't think they will show any balance changes until the update release - Just a character (Or muitiple) and some stages possibly.
