Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Routa]

This tier is pretty much spot on, but t needs some slight adjust.

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+ (This is a counter vote. Ike is a great character. He has one of the best footsie game and spacing game. He is able to finish a stock very fast (about 70%) and can easily rack up damage safely. Even tho his recovery is linear it is still rather hard to edgeguard. He has shown doing rather well alone. He also has rather nice MU spread for being in tier 3. His aerials got buffed thanks to new shield stun buff. But his biggest problem is not to get comboed into oblivion).
(TLDR: He has the MU spread, theory and results to be in tier 3 for now).

- (He got nerfed rather hard tbh. Getting grab is harder do to Fireballs not being as safe as before. He has very poor mobility which does not help him at all. He does not get rewarded as much as before do to throw nerf. Tbh this would not have been such of a impact if he wasn't such a slow character based around grab game. Luigi is still a noob slayer, but he is a lot easier to beat now).

Notes:

Is grab 101. Outside his grab and its reward he is rather lack luster character. Poor recovery, Meh approach, and okish at best OoS options. I was going to downvote him, but it seems like you guys have already downvoted him enough.

Just like DK he is mediocre at best if we remove his Gyros and his Throw combo. Even for a spacing character he is rather slow. He requires a lot of room for spacing. Also he has good MU spread, but not tier 3 good (too many bad MUs).

Also reminder to all:
is what the next tier looks like. So I suggest vote wisely. Kinda sick of being forced to use my votes for countering 'cause some one just FEELS like character X should be in tier 2. Tier 2 is pretty much "These characters are solo viable in competitive scene. They don't have any major flaws keeping them down or they have a flaw that is neutralized by something (for example Ness' backthrow)". Tier 3 is more like: "These characters can be used as a solo main, but it is suggested to have a secondary to take out the bad MUs. Some of the Tier 3 characters have something going for them when fighting against top/high tier characters (Ike being able to fall easily out from ZZS's Up-B)".

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Why do so many people want Ike voted to the tier below? I personally have him in the upper part of this tier, but even if you don't agree with that it's a bit ridiculous to want him in tier 4 out of all the character we can down vote.

Because not everyone likes Ike

 

[IndigoSSB]

Because not everyone likes Ike

I don't like him either. That doesn't make him any worse of a character.

 

[Ze Diglett]

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+1: I'm very confident this guy can easily be top 10 material.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I don't like him either. That doesn't make him any worse of a character.

In some people's eyes, it does. Look at Luigi for example, nerfed grab and tornado combo, now he's being considered low tier by youtubers. That, and people believe it's just the Ike hype going on, like with Roy, Bowser, and even Duck Hunt.

 

[Zerp]

Why do so many people want Ike voted to the tier below? I personally have him in the upper part of this tier, but even if you don't agree with that it's a bit ridiculous to want him in tier 4 out of all the character we can down vote.

Would you be kind enough to tell me why it's ridiculous? I don't really get it, Ike's good, yes, but I don't see how it's ridiculous that some of us don't think he belongs up here. I personally don't think he's all that great, and it's not like I hate him or have 0 experience with him, I both like the character and my brother happens to main him, it's just that I personally don't think he's as good as a character as say, Wario. If you could tell me why my thought's ridiculous instead of just simply telling us that we're crazy for voting him to where we honestly think he belongs, I'm sure you could end up convincing a few people and who knows, maybe you'd end up turning the tide for the tier .

 

[aεrgiα]

I'm more curious about why people think Ike is so darn good. I get it, Ryo gets results, but those results are defended primarily by a good Samus and a good Little Mac; not really hard competition. Ike's recovery is pretty terrible. His attacks are pretty slow (albeit strong and having good followups). His mobility can only be described as poor. I think the hype (Ike is very hype) is just getting to people.

ryo is a very good player yes... but its not just results, hes got a good spacing game, his recovery isnt terrible, its gimpable but so are most of the recoveries in the game, i actually think ike has a pretty good recovery, its not god tier but imo its better than... rob, falcon, dk, rosa, diddy, ness, mario, tink, roy, megaman, falco, link and maybe even yoshi(arguable) and weegee(though these two are highly debatable)(and im prob gonna get sh*t for saying these are worse but hey thats my opinion), and those are all chars in tiers around him...
his combos are pretty good, hes got throw combos until high % (and they dont do something minimal like 10%) and afaik(im no ike main though so i could be wrong) he can also kill off of uthrow on certain characters, he has large disjointed hitboxes, doesnt have much trouble killing(aside from throw shenanigans theres bair, utilt, ftilt(?), dash atk, not exactly the worst killing options, and i wouldnt be surprised if i missed some) and considering their power, a lot of his moves are fast. eruption is great at edgeguarding, low landing lag on most of his aerials, nair autocancels i believe, dtilt is a great spacing option which combos into quite a few aerials at certain percents.

 

[Evello]

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+1
I don't feel anyone else should change tiers.

I'm more curious about why people think Ike is so darn good. I get it, Ryo gets results, but those results are defended primarily by a good Samus and a good Little Mac; not really hard competition. Ike's recovery is pretty terrible. His attacks are pretty slow (albeit strong and having good followups). His mobility can only be described as poor. I think the hype (Ike is very hype) is just getting to people.

It's not just Ryo (though Ryo did make top 8 at MLG and STR as well as top 32 at TBH5). Ryuga and San also get solid results with Ike. Both were in the top 32 at TBH5 with Ryo. Ryuga is arguably as good as Ryo, and San is not far behind. There are also several other regional-level Ikes. All these players just don't travel much, so we rarely get to see how Ike stacks up at the national level.

Ike is good because he can space like a champ (against anyone not named Shulk) with his great autocancelable aerials. All his aerials are reasonably quick and safe when spaced properly, and his good jab backs him up at close range. His throw game is also very solid, and he can obviously kill super early with even a slight read. His weight and gimpable recovery hurt him, but his mobility is not bad and he honestly doesn't have any awful mathcups outside of Sheik.

 

[Doctor Luigi]

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+1

 

[CleanOgre]

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+
-

I also do hope most of you realize there are other Ikes placing well and beating top players, not just Ryo.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Would you be kind enough to tell me why it's ridiculous? I don't really get it, Ike's good, yes, but I don't see how it's ridiculous that some of us don't think he belongs up here. I personally don't think he's all that great, and it's not like I hate him or have 0 experience with him, I both like the character and my brother happens to main him, it's just that I personally don't think he's as good as a character as say, Wario. If you could tell me why my thought's ridiculous instead of just simply telling us that we're crazy for voting him to where we honestly think he belongs, I'm sure you could end up convincing a few people and who knows, maybe you'd end up turning the tide for the tier .

The character with the most down votes will most likely be demoted to 4th tier, where all of the mid tiers are. If we go by this logic a downvote means you think Ike is the worst character in this tier, which I disagree with. The myth that his mobility is bad is plainly wrong, especially when most of his tools are for spacing anyways (I main Falco, I know what bad mobility feels like), he has, imo, one of the best spacing games in the game, and he has reliable/potent combos. Not to mention he gets a lot of the positive qualities of a heavy without the negatives.

I'm not saying he should move up a tier (god forbid) nor am I even arguing that he's better than Wario in your example. But at the very least he's not the worst in this tier (he literally does everything better than Roy except for mobility, who's only a tier below him).

 

[TimG57867]

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+
-

Might add another vote depending on how things go.

 

[Zionaze]

Alright. If anyone of you guys want to criticize a character. Feel free to do so.

HOWEVER
Try not to spread misinformation,

That being said, ike's aerial mobility is not poor at all.

Edit: im xtra late to the greninja party

 

[Rinku リンク]

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+1Has massive potential it's scary.

I personally feel that Tier 3 otherwise is fine as it is besides rearranging a few characters places. I'll save my 2nd vote.

 

[CyroX]

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For some reason, I just cannot see Donkey Kong better than Luigi, R.O.B., or the Pit boys.

 

[TheJolteon]

So basically people are saying Luigi is bad now that he lost 1 out of 9 nine kill options. He is definetly worse than before but not worse than wario. Really is the grab THAT HARD to get. And I also recall Antio beating abadango's pacman with pre-patch Luigi. Im am definetly sure the meta for him will develop.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I'm more curious about why people think Ike is so darn good. I get it, Ryo gets results, but those results are defended primarily by a good Samus and a good Little Mac; not really hard competition. Ike's recovery is pretty terrible. His attacks are pretty slow (albeit strong and having good followups). His mobility can only be described as poor. I think the hype (Ike is very hype) is just getting to people.

Most of Ike's attacks aren't that slow when used properly. Bair is frame 7, Fair is frame 12 and both can autocancel when short hopped or full hopped. Dtilt is also frame 7 as well, and Ike has true combos out of throw up to around 60%. Quick Draw (his side B) can also autocancel when used at the proper height making him much more mobile than people tend to think. Also wanted to point out that there were three Ike players in top 32 at TBH5. Also Ryo was in the top 8 at the MLG and STR events. I'm not trying to argue with you or attack you in any way but there's a lot of misunderstandings about the character. (And there's a lot of bad Ike players to make the character look even worse than he is).

 

[phire_]

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+ (are his nerfs really THAT bad? sure they take away one of his better combos, but he's still fine, right?)
+ (can't think of anyone else to vote, so i'm gonna shamelessly bump my main)

 

[TheJolteon]

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+ (are his nerfs really THAT bad? sure they take away one of his better combos, but he's still fine, right?)
+ (can't think of anyone else to vote, so i'm gonna shamelessly bump my main)

At least someone thinks the nerfs are not that bad

 

[Zerp]

The character with the most down votes will most likely be demoted to 4th tier, where all of the mid tiers are. If we go by this logic a downvote means you think Ike is the worst character in this tier, which I disagree with. The myth that his mobility is bad is plainly wrong, especially when most of his tools are for spacing anyways (I main Falco, I know what bad mobility feels like), he has, imo, one of the best spacing games in the game, and he has reliable/potent combos. Not to mention he gets a lot of the positive qualities of a heavy without the negatives.

I'm not saying he should move up a tier (god forbid) nor am I even arguing that he's better than Wario in your example. But at the very least he's not the worst in this tier (he literally does everything better than Roy except for mobility, who's only a tier below him).

Thank you, and while I still don't agree with you, (While he's strong due to a lot of the qualities you listed, and became even stronger due to the shieldstun changes, I find the poor guy's recoveries to both be mediocre and quite easy to edgeguard, and along with that I feel like he just suffers too much from rush-down characters (bar Sonic) and jugglers that are quicker than him and his strengths aren't enough to keep his current position) I can understand your reasoning and what you said makes a lot of sense.

Also, thank you for staying civil, I really appreciate that.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Thank you, and while I still don't agree with you, (While he's strong due to a lot of the qualities you listed, and became even stronger due to the shieldstun changes, I find the poor guy's recoveries to both be mediocre and quite easy to edgeguard, and along with that I feel like he just suffers too much from rush-down characters (bar Sonic) and jugglers that are quicker than him and his strengths aren't enough to keep his current position) I can understand your reasoning and what you said makes a lot of sense.

Also, thank you for staying civil, I really appreciate that.

Fair enough, that's the point of this thread, to formulate a tier list based on everybody's opinion. As long as there's thought and reasoning behind it I'm perfectly okay with differing opinions, it just irritates me when people act brain dead when giving out their reasoning. I can appreciate the civility as well, I feel people on this forums are sometimes too unwilling to see anything other than their own opinion.

 

[Nessimator]

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-1
-1

 

[Equin0x]

ryo is a very good player yes... but its not just results, hes got a good spacing game, his recovery isnt terrible, its gimpable but so are most of the recoveries in the game, i actually think ike has a pretty good recovery, its not god tier but imo its better than... rob, falcon, dk, rosa, diddy, ness, mario, tink, roy, megaman, falco, link and maybe even yoshi(arguable) and weegee(though these two are highly debatable)(and im prob gonna get sh*t for saying these are worse but hey thats my opinion), and those are all chars in tiers around him...
his combos are pretty good, hes got throw combos until high % (and they dont do something minimal like 10%) and afaik(im no ike main though so i could be wrong) he can also kill off of uthrow on certain characters, he has large disjointed hitboxes, doesnt have much trouble killing(aside from throw shenanigans theres bair, utilt, ftilt(?), dash atk, not exactly the worst killing options, and i wouldnt be surprised if i missed some) and considering their power, a lot of his moves are fast. eruption is great at edgeguarding, low landing lag on most of his aerials, nair autocancels i believe, dtilt is a great spacing option which combos into quite a few aerials at certain percents.

Ike's recovery is pretty terrible, at least vertically. If he has to recover vertically higher than his double jump (god forbid he doesn't have it), he has to rely on Aether (god also forbid he has to recovery diagonally upward, because he just can't). Aether does have super armor, but only until he reaches the apex, where he is vulnerable. Combine this with the fact that it doesn't snap to the ledge, and you have an Ike that is extremely vulnerable to anyone with a disjoint or projectile if he tries to recover from low. I remember watching a match of Ryuga's where ZeRo just pecked him Needles repeatedly until (iirc) he eventually died (or got launched high enough to recover, one of the two). The only ones in the list you gave whom I agree with you on are DK, Roy, and Link. The rest I believe are about as good or better.

I never faulted him for a lack of comboes or kill power. As a heavy, of course most of his moves kill (the only moves of his which I could not consider kill moves would be Jabs, Dtilt, and Nair), but then so do DK's, Bowser's, Ganon's, D3's, etc. Kill power does not make a character automatically good, it is only trait a good character must have (unless you're godlike at everything else, like Sheik). However, another trait a good character must have is frame data. They must have something quick. Something to get opponents off of them, relieve pressure, or break comboes. Ike does not have that. I wouldn't call any of his moves after Jab "fast." His next fastest options in Dtilt and Bair are only tied with his Grab for 7 frames. (Even his Counter is a pitiful 9 frames of startup.)

He is great at edgeguarding, like most sword users (ERUPTION IS STUPIDLY GOOD), but it's not true that his aerials have low landing lag. Nair and Uair don't have high landing lag (Nair: 14 frames, Uair: 15 frames), but the rest are 18+ frames. His Nair doesn't autocancel out of SH or FH, but his Fair and Bair do autocancel out of SH, which is something I didn't know that has improved my opinion of him. Similar to edgeguarding, spacing is helped a lot by his sword, but most of his spacing tools can be punished on reaction unless they're Nair or an autocancelled Fair or Bair. (Dtilt is adequate imo, but it has 22 frames of cooldown which mean an easy punish is whiffed.)

It's not just Ryo (though Ryo did make top 8 at MLG and STR as well as top 32 at TBH5). Ryuga and San also get solid results with Ike. Both were in the top 32 at TBH5 with Ryo. Ryuga is arguably as good as Ryo, and San is not far behind. There are also several other regional-level Ikes. All these players just don't travel much, so we rarely get to see how Ike stacks up at the national level.

Ike is good because he can space like a champ (against anyone not named Shulk) with his great autocancelable aerials. All his aerials are reasonably quick and safe when spaced properly, and his good jab backs him up at close range. His throw game is also very solid, and he can obviously kill super early with even a slight read. His weight and gimpable recovery hurt him, but his mobility is not bad and he honestly doesn't have any awful matchups outside of Sheik.

I knew about Ryuga and San, they're just less popular so I didn't mention them. Fun fact: they all placed equally at TBH5. I honestly think their placings are as much in part to the skill of the player as the abilities of the characters, if not more. (Ryuga at least is very smart.)

I do agree that his Fair and Bair are pretty amazing, and Shulk out-disjoints everybody, but Ike also has no good way of dealing with projectiles outside of hoping to time a move to clang, which can and will get punished. In a game with Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario, etc, that's a huge disadvantage. (Unless you, as an Ike main, know something I do not?)

In addition to his weight and recovery, his lack of framedata and higher-than-average fallspeed make his disadvantage state a nightmare. That's the same reason other heavies like DK and Bowser don't do so hot (although to a lesser extent).

I don't think highly of Ike's mobility. He's in the upper half of aeromobility and fall speed, but without a good run speed or mobility-boosting special (I don't think Quick Draw is very good in neutral), I can't say I like it.

And I can't speak for any matchups besides my own, nor am I more experienced in Ike than you, but I know that ZSS also bodies Ike.

 

[aεrgiα]

So basically people are saying Luigi is bad now that he lost 1 out of 9 nine kill options. He is definetly worse than before but not worse than wario. Really is the grab THAT HARD to get. And I also recall Antio beating abadango's pacman with pre-patch Luigi. Im am definetly sure the meta for him will develop.

i dont think luigi is bad now, i just think he was a bit overrated before the patch, (to most people weegee was dthrow the character, and now that dthrow got nerfed, it turns from over to underrated)so while the patch did hurt him quite a bit(ill admit, i dont know what 8 other killing options u are refering to, but im pretty sure none are as easy or as powerful as dthrow-> cyclone)i would place him near the lower end of tier three(mind u this is still tier three we are talking about!!!) not because he got that much worse because of the patch, but because i didnt see him as tier 1 material in the first place, prepatch id have said maybe bottom tier 2 or top of tier 3... and for the record, i do think that wario is better than luigi but thats a different topic

Edit: badly worded but what i meant with dthrow the character was people thought dthrow was basically the only tool luigi had

 

[Stick Dude]

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+1

-1

 

[Equin0x]

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+1

-1

You think Ryu is the second best in the tier yet you think he should go down a tier?

 

[Deleted member]

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+1
-1

 

[Stick Dude]

You think Ryu is the second best in the tier yet you think he should go down a tier?

It's a counter-vote.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

It's a counter-vote.

Still kinda weird

 

[aεrgiα]

Ike's recovery is pretty terrible, at least vertically. If he has to recover vertically higher than his double jump (god forbid he doesn't have it), he has to rely on Aether (god also forbid he has to recovery diagonally upward, because he just can't). Aether does have super armor, but only until he reaches the apex, where he is vulnerable. Combine this with the fact that it doesn't snap to the ledge, and you have an Ike that is extremely vulnerable to anyone with a disjoint or projectile if he tries to recover from low. I remember watching a match of Ryuga's where ZeRo just pecked him Needles repeatedly until (iirc) he eventually died (or got launched high enough to recover, one of the two). The only ones in the list you gave whom I agree with you on are DK, Roy, and Link. The rest I believe are about as good or better.

I never faulted him for a lack of comboes or kill power. As a heavy, of course most of his moves kill (the only moves of his which I could not consider kill moves would be Jabs, Dtilt, and Nair), but then so do DK's, Bowser's, Ganon's, D3's, etc. Kill power does not make a character automatically good, it is only trait a good character must have (unless you're godlike at everything else, like Sheik). However, another trait a good character must have is frame data. They must have something quick. Something to get opponents off of them, relieve pressure, or break comboes. Ike does not have that. I wouldn't call any of his moves after Jab "fast." His next fastest options in Dtilt and Bair are only tied with his Grab for 7 frames. (Even his Counter is a pitiful 9 frames of startup.)

He is great at edgeguarding, like most sword users (ERUPTION IS STUPIDLY GOOD), but it's not true that his aerials have low landing lag. Nair and Uair don't have high landing lag (Nair: 14 frames, Uair: 15 frames), but the rest are 18+ frames. His Nair doesn't autocancel out of SH or FH, but his Fair and Bair do autocancel out of SH, which is something I didn't know that has improved my opinion of him. Similar to edgeguarding, spacing is helped a lot by his sword, but most of his spacing tools can be punished on reaction unless they're Nair or an autocancelled Fair or Bair. (Dtilt is adequate imo, but it has 22 frames of cooldown which mean an easy punish is whiffed.)



I knew about Ryuga and San, they're just less popular so I didn't mention them. Fun fact: they all placed equally at TBH5. I honestly think their placings are as much in part to the skill of the player as the abilities of the characters, if not more. (Ryuga at least is very smart.)

I do agree that his Fair and Bair are pretty amazing, and Shulk out-disjoints everybody, but Ike also has no good way of dealing with projectiles outside of hoping to time a move to clang, which can and will get punished. In a game with Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario, etc, that's a huge disadvantage. (Unless you, as an Ike main, know something I do not?)

In addition to his weight and recovery, his lack of framedata and higher-than-average fallspeed make his disadvantage state a nightmare. That's the same reason other heavies like DK and Bowser don't do so hot (although to a lesser extent).

I don't think highly of Ike's mobility. He's int he upper half of aeromobility and fall speed, but without a good run speed or mobility-boosting special (I don't think Quick Draw is very good in neutral), I can't say I like it.

And I can't speak for any matchups besides my own, nor am I more experienced in Ike than you, but I know that ZSS also bodies Ike.

you do raise valid points, so first off what i meant with kill power wasnt his killing power but more so his ease of landing his killing moves, apart from the dingdong and bair on dk, i dont see the other heavies having anything comparable to bair, ftilt, utilt, dash atk when it comes to actually landing the moves... u could say ganon but he has other issues which hold him back(now THATS a bad recovery, to name one ). about his spacing... well what u listed is already quite a good asortment of spacing tools but if those are not good enough for u then that is where our opinions differ so i wont try to convince u otherwise and agree to disagree

now the main point for last, the fact that aether doesnt snap is a huge deficit, ill give u that, and its definitely an issue. bare in mind tho, hes got a nice large hitbox infront of him in the form of his sword, and also dropping lower before using aether makes u less of an open target (note the word less). as for losing the DJ, pretty much all the characters in that list get shafted without their double jump.
going down the list heres the reasoning of why i think the recoveries are worse
: its got great distance, true but its slow and while he can use aerials out of it those have long durationgs outside of fair, which doesnt protect u from above, meaning u will lose a lot of distance using them, and his fuel isnt indefinite. he has to pretty much go for the ledge since his landing options arent great(just look at top level rob play, it takes a lot of work for rob to get back to the stage as far as i can tell)
: well i dont see how u can say this is better than ikes, sorry i just dont see it, its linear, range isnt mind blowing, and i find it really easy to intercept, tho maybe thats just my charaters(lucas' bair says hello )
: well its got an odd trajectory, and quite good range but... no hitbox, linear and not exactly something u cant react to speed wise, this is something im surprised few people actually try to challenge as its not exactly hard to do so, especially when people try to challenge ryus recovery for eg...
: hes got side b which is very nice, but vertical recovery? getting hit out of barrels is pretty much gg for diddy and ive seen them get hit a lot
: hes got great height on his DJ but... pk thunder... first of all, jumping into pkt 1 gets rid of any chances of ness recovering, and since u were talking about projectiles with ike... throw something in his way after pkt2 whether that be certain projectiles, an item(depending on who u play), a counter, an absorbing move(rosa, lucas or ness down b, ive even heard pits orbitars can gimp him too but ive never tried that so dont quote me on it ;p ) or even yourself(low % or yolo techs), and he will usually die because of halved distance, or other logical reasons (counter and down bs)
: well this is a pretty decent recovery true but i still dont think its great, maybe im bias on this one but well, its got a good hitbox, but its range is a bit lacking for my tastes. i dunno, ive had bad experiences with using this recovery, maybe i just suck at recovering with mario :/
: considering his aerial movement i take this one back, with bombs reseting upb it can actually do some work(though ofc you need to take out the bomb quickly as they have a longer timer than links)
: well hes got good vertical recovery but horizontally it can be quite lacking(extremely so without dj) and while u can attack after up b, the fact that unlike rob he cant "continue" using his upb afterwards combined with the fact that u dont snap to the ledge after using fair, it can be quite difficult covering ur recovery from anyone who wants to gimp u and if they hit you and u didnt save ur dj somehow, ur prob not making it back
: well its linear, his phantom is predictable as well as not having a consistent hitbox afaik, his high dj does help a lot but firebird, just like aether enjoys projectiles, disjoints and its also great at tranding with spikes (lol at drop down spikes like zss getting knocked back up after spiking them(i believe it was zss, i did it to my friend in friendlies, had me roflmao)

as for yoshi and weegee, they need the double jump desperately so if they lose it its game over most of the time(but as i said before these two are debatable as with the dj they are very good)

feel free to disagree, but thats my reasoning behind saying their recoveries are worse and for the record, writing this out on phone was not a fun experience

Edit: also thank for actually looking into the character (concerning his aerials) instead of being fixated on an opinion based without looking at the character, as ive had that a lot in the past when discussing certain characters viability in this game.

 

[aεrgiα]

It's a counter-vote.

im pretty sure it doesnt work that way, as i understand it the votes for going up and the votes for going down are counted separately, could be a missunderstanding on my end though :/

 

[Stick Dude]

im pretty sure it doesnt work that way, as i understand it the votes for going up and the votes for going down are counted separately, could be a missunderstanding on my end though :/

Either way my vote probably doesn't matter.

 

[Equin0x]

aεrgiα When I was talking about his recovery, I mainly meant the distance. He has Mac-syndrome if he gets knocked straight sideways or downward.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Spoiler: Reference

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I would vote up and down, but very many people are already doing that, so I'll do something else.

+1 Fantastic zoning game, good followups, and the best projectile in the game. His only major problem is that wrecks him. (Unfortunately, probably no one else will help me here.)
-1 He has combos, but they aren't that extensive, and he's still got slow moves and an easily gimpable recovery.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Why isn't anyone voting DK down? Getting a combo throw doesn't make you good. I'm not saying he's bad, but he is not in this tier. Heck, he loses super hard to the two best characters, Sheik and ZSS. He also doesn't really beat anyone above him, and he loses to people below him. He isn't this high.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Why isn't anyone voting DK down? Getting a combo throw doesn't make you good. I'm not saying he's bad, but he is not in this tier. Heck, he loses super hard to the two best characters, Sheik and ZSS. He also doesn't really beat anyone above him, and he loses to people below him. He isn't this high.

Um...have you even seen half of the replies? I purposefully avoided doing it because so many other people were.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

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+1
+1 (not a typo. A counter vote. DK deserves to hang on in this tier )

 

[Evello]

Ike's recovery is pretty terrible, at least vertically. If he has to recover vertically higher than his double jump (god forbid he doesn't have it), he has to rely on Aether (god also forbid he has to recovery diagonally upward, because he just can't). Aether does have super armor, but only until he reaches the apex, where he is vulnerable. Combine this with the fact that it doesn't snap to the ledge, and you have an Ike that is extremely vulnerable to anyone with a disjoint or projectile if he tries to recover from low. I remember watching a match of Ryuga's where ZeRo just pecked him Needles repeatedly until (iirc) he eventually died (or got launched high enough to recover, one of the two).

Ike's vertical recovery is vulnerable to falling projectiles, like Sheik's aerial needles or Mario's fireballs, but those moves are generally in the minority. Ike can space Aether so that he never goes above the stage, which avoids any pure horizontal projectiles. And the risk of an Aether spike discourages direct interference. His recovery is certainly gimpable in some matchups, but it's not terrible against the cast as a whole.

However, another trait a good character must have is frame data. They must have something quick. Something to get opponents off of them, relieve pressure, or break comboes. Ike does not have that. I wouldn't call any of his moves after Jab "fast." His next fastest options in Dtilt and Bair are only tied with his Grab for 7 frames. (Even his Counter is a pitiful 9 frames of startup.)

This is absolutely Ike's biggest weakness. Jab serves decently to get foes off you, and Ike's surprisingly good throw game keeps opponents on their toes when in close, but his lack of combo breakers really hurts. Bair is good for retreating, and dtilt is good for stopping approaches, but neither is great for getting a rushdown character off you.

He is great at edgeguarding, like most sword users (ERUPTION IS STUPIDLY GOOD), but it's not true that his aerials have low landing lag. Nair and Uair don't have high landing lag (Nair: 14 frames, Uair: 15 frames), but the rest are 18+ frames. His Nair doesn't autocancel out of SH or FH, but his Fair and Bair do autocancel out of SH, which is something I didn't know that has improved my opinion of him. Similar to edgeguarding, spacing is helped a lot by his sword, but most of his spacing tools can be punished on reaction unless they're Nair or an autocancelled Fair or Bair. (Dtilt is adequate imo, but it has 22 frames of cooldown which mean an easy punish is whiffed.)

Upair and dair are no good near the ground, but nair, fair, and bair are all safe when spaced maximally and come out fast enough for spacing purposes. Nair also hits significantly behind Ike, which lets you mix up which side of the opponent you land on. Ike lives or dies by nair, fair, and bair. Upair's lasting hitbox is decent for vertical kills, and dash attack is now a brutal KO move, but both are situational. Like you said, dtilt is safe-ish, but if you use it improperly it can bite you. Your 3 main aerials and grab make up a large portion of any competent Ike's repertoire.

I knew about Ryuga and San, they're just less popular so I didn't mention them. Fun fact: they all placed equally at TBH5. I honestly think their placings are as much in part to the skill of the player as the abilities of the characters, if not more. (Ryuga at least is very smart.)

I would tend to agree that Ryo, Ryuga, and San are all extremely good players (even moreso than their placings indicate), but even good players don't place that high and consistently with bad characters. They prove that in the hands of a savvy player, Ike is solo viable, which imo is deserving of this tier. I don't have any delusions that he's near the top of the tier, let alone actually top tier, but he can certainly hold his own compared to folks like Peach and DK.

I do agree that his Fair and Bair are pretty amazing, and Shulk out-disjoints everybody, but Ike also has no good way of dealing with projectiles outside of hoping to time a move to clang, which can and will get punished. In a game with Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Mario, etc, that's a huge disadvantage. (Unless you, as an Ike main, know something I do not?)

Perfect shielding becomes your friend very quickly. It's not an ideal solution, but a combination of physically avoiding projectiles, shielding them, grabbing them (if possible), and swiping them with your sword lets Ike handle most situations... other than Sheik, who again counters Ike pretty hard. Smart stage selection for beneficial platforms is also helpful. If you watch the top Ikes, they rarely struggle with projectiles, though Ryo's reaction time is freaking incredible.

In addition to his weight and recovery, his lack of framedata and higher-than-average fallspeed make his disadvantage state a nightmare. That's the same reason other heavies like DK and Bowser don't do so hot (although to a lesser extent).

DK actually has significant tournament results through DKwill and M2K, which I imagine is why he's on the list for B tier as well. Bowser's another story...

I don't think highly of Ike's mobility. He's int he upper half of aeromobility and fall speed, but without a good run speed or mobility-boosting special (I don't think Quick Draw is very good in neutral), I can't say I like it.

Ike's mobility is not particularly good, but it's not really a hindrance. Grounded Quick Draw is rubbish in neutral, but if you are airborn long enough the landing lag essentially goes away, so it can occasionally be useful for crossing the stage while in advantaged state. Otherwise, he's not going to be able to keep up with crazy fast characters, but he can move enough for spacing purposes.

And I can't speak for any matchups besides my own, nor am I more experienced in Ike than you, but I know that ZSS also bodies Ike.

Eh, I'm by no means a top level Ike, but most of the better Ikes I've heard from claim that ZSS is only bad for Ike, not necessarily unwinnable. I am not personally skilled enough to make that call, but from what I've seen there are several matchups like that in the top tiers for Ike (Fox seems to be another, though I don't know what the consensus is on that). So yeah, don't expect to see Ike ever winning a national. Still, he can body a lot of mid tiers and lower, so I can't really see him below the top of mid tier.

 

[Apeirohaon]

+ (counter-vote, guys Ike is really good)

edit: OP or whoever organizes the votes: if a character (eg ike) is countervoted so much that they move a tier in that direction, can you just not move them? since obviously nobody would actually want that

 

[XenoBlur]

(,)

+1
+1