Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Routa]

This is what F'd up tier 6's voting. A tie isn't going to mean that both move up. If you think Tink is better than Marth, why are you voting to get Marth into a higher tier but not Tink. It makes 0 sense

Limited votes and I already see people voting Tink enough so I thought it would be better to give the point to Marth.

 

[Wintermelon43]

http://memegenerator.net/instance2/2498780

 

[Routa]

http://memegenerator.net/instance2/2498780

Nah it is the other way round.

 

[scapemaster]

+1
-1

 

[Ze Diglett]

I vote no one up or down a tier.

 

[CleanOgre]

5:

+
-

 

[CyroX]

Tier 5:
+1
-1

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Spoiler: Reference

5:

5:

+1 Only got improved with the patch: tipper kills stupid early, good up B, and fantastic spacing. He could even be tier 3.
+1 Before you say "frame data doesn't make him good", you should play him for at least two minutes. He shouldn't be Tier 4, but a shockingly high amount of people are downvoting him.

Honorable mentions:

+1 Would be a real vote, but people are already voting him up like crazy, so I opted out of it.
+1 Same as Toon Link.
-1 Slow and laggy, combos rely mostly on side B which is hard to land. However, he's decent with spacing and killing. I also generally dislike voting characters down.

 

[Number Three]

5:

-1
-1

 

[Rinku リンク]

5:

+1 Has really powerful setups and combos when played correctly.
+1 Because everyone on this entire website hates her.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: For Reference

5:

5:

+1 Just before you all get your panties in a bunch, this vote isn't because of Nairo. While Nairo did a great job playing Doc last night, another player that not many know of for some reason has shown considerable proof that Doc is very much a viable character. 2ManyCooks is considered to be the best Dr. Mario player in SSB4 right now, and he's gotten into top 32 with him at a multi-regional tournament. He's held up very well against the likes of Mew2King, Yoh and Exodia there. People need to learn to get rid of the "he's Mario with Little Mac-tier recovery!" stigma and see that he's capable of damn good things.

-1 I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to downvote Kirby. He has literally next to no representation in national tournaments, his mains have failed to get any significant success with him, and the shieldstun changes worsened his already gaping flaws. He can't approach, his down air can be easily telegraphed, and his up throw doesn't even start killing until crazy high percents or if he lands it somewhere like Battlefield or Dream Land's top platform or Smashville's one. He has poor reach, and can't even space as well with back air as he could in Brawl where he could weave in and out with it. Kirby's one of my mains and I love the character, but unless somebody gives Kirby more of a presence in top-level play, I'm convinced he's low-tier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler: For Reference

5:

5:

+1 Just before you all get your panties in a bunch, this vote isn't because of Nairo. While Nairo did a great job playing Doc last night, another player that not many know of for some reason has shown considerable proof that Doc is very much a viable character. 2ManyCooks is considered to be the best Dr. Mario player in SSB4 right now, and he's gotten into top 32 with him at a multi-regional tournament. He's held up very well against the likes of Mew2King, Yoh and Exodia there. People need to learn to get rid of the "he's Mario with Doc recovery!" stigma and see that he's capable of damn good things.

-1 I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to downvote Kirby. He has literally next to no representation in national tournaments, his mains have failed to get any significant success with him, and the shieldstun changes worsened his already gaping flaws. He can't approach, his down air can be easily telegraphed, and his up throw doesn't even start killing until crazy high percents or if he lands it somewhere like Battlefield or Dream Land's top platform or Smashville's one. He has poor reach, and can't even space as well with back air as he could in Brawl where he could weave in and out with it. Kirby's one of my mains and I love the character, but unless somebody gives Kirby more of a presence in top-level play, I'm convinced he's low-tier.

AHEM. Mikekirby has beaten LARRYLURR in tournament before, as well as several other notable players. Ever considered how Mikekirby does amazing and beats notable players in the fairly minor tournaments he goes too, which includes Beating 4th place at CEO? He's even been shown to do good aganist Vinnie, too. So if Kirby has players this great, Why has he not gotten into anywhere at CEO, EVO, ETC? They WREN'T THERE! I'm not sure why TripleR hasn't shown up in tournaments much (He didn't do that good at big house 5 though so......, and as for MikeKirby he said on the Kirby Social he was on vacation much of summer.

Shieldstun worsened it? Only a tiny bit. Yeah sure he's five times worse.

I'm not sure how the beep the up throw is THAT bad as to be a major gaping flaw. He DOES have other ways to KO, It's not even any worse than most other characters. Has ANYONE ever noticed That EVERY character except for like Ryu and Meta Knight appear to have trouble KOing as people say, when they say KOing problems is a big flaw for Kirby.

So what if back air isn't as good at spacing? It doesn't mean Kirby suddenly can't space anymore!

And, most importantly, You are FORGETTING HOW GOOD HIS STRENGTHS ARE!!!! I absoluty HATE how people are just like "OMG SHULK KIRBY DEDEDE AND JIGGLYPUFF ARE BOTTOM THREE THEY HAVE A FEW MAJOR FLAWS IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE ANY GOOD ADVANTAGES TO AT LEAST HELP THEM OUT!!!" But he does! They all sdo! Yet people say they're like bottom four. His frame data is good, His tilts are amazing, his air attacks are amazing, he has good edgeguarding, good recovery, Great combos, great grabs, great pummel (You can actually USE it, which is rare in this game), Good smashes, and great matchups.

And that's another thing. How could Kirby be low tier, if he has even matchups aganist SHEIK, ZERO SUIT SAMUS, HAS AN ADVANTAGE AGANIST CAPTAIN FALCON, AND MOST KIRBY MAINS THINK HE GOES EVEN WITH FOX? (I think it is 45:55 but eh) Three of those are top tier, one of them is high tier. Hmm............

+ (reasons stated long time ago)

- (I just hate to spend my votes to balance some of the voting, but seriously guys... Even the top Kirby players think he is bad. Why can't you just accept it? He has poor results, Ok frame data and Okish at best MU spread. He is nowhere near as good as Tink or Waifus)

Others that I would vote if I had more votes:

+ (Has the theory, framedata and results to raise his spot in tier list, but in my opinion Marth and Lucina need the votes now)

-

OKish frame data? Kirby has great frame data....... Srrsly Kurogene give us Kirby's frame data so I can link this person to it..

Also, his matchup spread is OKish, but it's better than any mid-tiers. EVEN aganist Sheik and Zss, And many Kirby Mains think Fox is even (I think it's 45:55 but whatever). That's better than most mid-tiers. Which puts Kirby into the middle tiers.

Also, IMO Kirby is 29th,cI will post my reasons pretty soon.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

+1

I was waiting a while to decide whoelse I'd "waste" my vote on, and deserves it

 

[MarioMeteor]

#5:

+1 (D O C B O Y Z unite!)
-1
Edit: My damn phone won't let me edit, but Little Mac goes in between Kirby and Marth.

 

[Turrin]

+
+

 

[K_osh]

AHEM. Mikekirby has beaten LARRYLURR in tournament before, as well as several other notable players. Ever considered how Mikekirby does amazing and beats notable players in the fairly minor tournaments he goes too, which includes Beating 4th place at CEO? He's even been shown to do good aganist Vinnie, too. So if Kirby has players this great, Why has he not gotten into anywhere at CEO, EVO, ETC? They WREN'T THERE! I'm not sure why TripleR hasn't shown up in tournaments much (He didn't do that good at big house 5 though so......, and as for MikeKirby he said on the Kirby Social he was on vacation much of summer.

Shieldstun worsened it? Only a tiny bit. Yeah sure he's five times worse.

I'm not sure how the beep the up throw is THAT bad as to be a major gaping flaw. He DOES have other ways to KO, It's not even any worse than most other characters. Has ANYONE ever noticed That EVERY character except for like Ryu and Meta Knight appear to have trouble KOing as people say, when they say KOing problems is a big flaw for Kirby.

So what if back air isn't as good at spacing? It doesn't mean Kirby suddenly can't space anymore!

And, most importantly, You are FORGETTING HOW GOOD HIS STRENGTHS ARE!!!! I absoluty HATE how people are just like "OMG SHULK KIRBY DEDEDE AND JIGGLYPUFF ARE BOTTOM THREE THEY HAVE A FEW MAJOR FLAWS IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE ANY GOOD ADVANTAGES TO AT LEAST HELP THEM OUT!!!" But he does! They all sdo! Yet people say they're like bottom four. His frame data is good, His tilts are amazing, his air attacks are amazing, he has good edgeguarding, good recovery, Great combos, great grabs, great pummel (You can actually USE it, which is rare in this game), Good smashes, and great matchups.

And that's another thing. How could Kirby be low tier, if he has even matchups aganist SHEIK, ZERO SUIT SAMUS, HAS AN ADVANTAGE AGANIST CAPTAIN FALCON, AND MOST KIRBY MAINS THINK HE GOES EVEN WITH FOX? (I think it is 45:55 but eh) Three of those are top tier, one of them is high tier. Hmm............



OKish frame data? Kirby has great frame data....... Srrsly Kurogene give us Kirby's frame data so I can link this person to it..

Also, his matchup spread is OKish, but it's better than any mid-tiers. EVEN aganist Sheik and Zss, And many Kirby Mains think Fox is even (I think it's 45:55 but whatever). That's better than most mid-tiers. Which puts Kirby into the middle tiers.

Also, IMO Kirby is 29th,cI will post my reasons pretty soon.

Thank you, somebody had to say it. Personally I would put him slightly lower than 29th but still around the same area. Also TripleR did pretty well at BH5,he was one game away from getting top 32. Also im not understanding where everyone is getting the idea that the top kirby players don't think hes good. Im pretty sure all of them think hes viable save for Poyo but he doesn't really main kirby. Its easy to make any character sound good/bad if you only list the flaws or strengths but kirby has enough going for him to be put in mid tier. Also why is everyone down voting kirby to "counteract" all the positive votes. I have not seen a lot of positive votes so you guys arent really counteracting anything, in the end your down votes are probably going to put kirby lower than he should be. I think he shouldn't move much so normally I wouldn't give him an up vote but I feel like i have to so kibry doesn't end up lower than he should.

+1

 

[Cyclone_]

I don't want to sound like I am picking fault or start an arguement or anything, but you claim to know about Marth, yet know nothing about Lucina.

For the record, I went and did some tests. I went to training, and used Final Destination as the stage. Marth first, with Jiggly as the test dummy. I used the starting position on FD every time in these tests, to see exactly what percents the moves kill at. I also used optimal DI. Marth's Tipper F-smash killed Jiggly at her starting position in training with optimal DI at 47%. I did the same for Lucina, and she killed with her F-smash at 75%, so you are clearly misinformed about Lucina. Factor in this was training mode where Rage is not present, and both these can kill earlier in matches. For comparison, I tested a few other characters to make a comparison. Yoshi killed at 80% with his F-smash, and Falcon killed at 71%, so in reality, Lucina's F-smash is actually very powerful. Marth no longer has the severe lag issues he had at the start of the game. He has more lag than he used to have in past games, but it's not game breaking this time. Worse than before, but workable. Their main problem is limited follow ups in my opinion. Give them better throws.

^ This guy haha.

 

[Cyclone_]

Spoiler: Reference

5:

5:

+1 Only got improved with the patch: tipper kills stupid early, good up B, and fantastic spacing. He could even be tier 3.
+1 Before you say "frame data doesn't make him good", you should play him for at least two minutes. He shouldn't be Tier 4, but a shockingly high amount of people are downvoting him.

Honorable mentions:

+1 Would be a real vote, but people are already voting him up like crazy, so I opted out of it.
+1 Same as Toon Link.
-1 Slow and laggy, combos rely mostly on side B which is hard to land. However, he's decent with spacing and killing. I also generally dislike voting characters down.

You my friend should stop talking out your ass about marth.

 

[TimG57867]

This is my order for the time being:


I'll see how things go and vote later.

 

[kirby509]

+
+

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

+1

 

[Nessimator]

5.

Im really ok with this to be honest.

Where's ?

 

[Zionaze]

Spoiler: For Reference

5:

5:

+1 Just before you all get your panties in a bunch, this vote isn't because of Nairo. While Nairo did a great job playing Doc last night, another player that not many know of for some reason has shown considerable proof that Doc is very much a viable character. 2ManyCooks is considered to be the best Dr. Mario player in SSB4 right now, and he's gotten into top 32 with him at a multi-regional tournament. He's held up very well against the likes of Mew2King, Yoh and Exodia there. People need to learn to get rid of the "he's Mario with Little Mac-tier recovery!" stigma and see that he's capable of damn good things.

-1 I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to downvote Kirby. He has literally next to no representation in national tournaments, his mains have failed to get any significant success with him, and the shieldstun changes worsened his already gaping flaws. He can't approach, his down air can be easily telegraphed, and his up throw doesn't even start killing until crazy high percents or if he lands it somewhere like Battlefield or Dream Land's top platform or Smashville's one. He has poor reach, and can't even space as well with back air as he could in Brawl where he could weave in and out with it. Kirby's one of my mains and I love the character, but unless somebody gives Kirby more of a presence in top-level play, I'm convinced he's low-tier.

You triggered wintermelon so hard.
My sides.

 

[Cheap Shot]

5:

Honestly, I feel like most of these characters should be moving up. I really did want only 4 tiers as I think the vast majority of the cast is viable in some way or another in this game. However, these will be my votes.

+ The guy has insane combos, great recovery, one of the best offstage abilities in the game. Regi placed in the top 16 with this character at Evo and almost beat Esam. He doesn't have much representation but I think that can be attributed to lack of great players wanting to play him at nationals.

+ He has a lot of votes going for him and for good reason! From what I know, his kill power is comparable to Link's. However, he is quite a bit faster than his non-toon counterpart. He can camp you out from a distance and come in for close combat.

I wished I could also vote for most of the others to go up, so I'll give my reasoning here.

+ Kirby has fantastic combos and punishes. He's definitely a mid-tier.

+ Jr. has a very unique moveset and largely unexplored tools.

+ DHD is a crazy projectile character that has some decent results. Should be mid-tier.

+ WFT has shown way more potential lately and I think they can be mid-tier.

+ Robin has shown recently that all of the patches have worked in their favor. The projectile game is great and the close-range combat is also effective.

+ Little Mac has obvious weaknesses and they are always brought up. However, Mac has unprecedented frame-rate data to compliment super-armor on many of his outrageously powerful moves. The right commitment to the character will one day show his mid-tier potential.

 

[Bowserboy3]

People need to learn to get rid of the "he's Mario with Little Mac-tier recovery!" stigma

Ha, I've come to realize that if a character has some sort of stigma, people aren't gonna forget about it any time soon (see Samus), regardless of what the character can do.

However, those were good examples of Doc videos. Doc does indeed play very differently to Mario, and though Mario's playstyle is arguably better and more effective, Doc excels in what he does pretty well.

 

[Dcas]

5:

+ 1 : All her/ his aerials kills, great zoning game and spacing tools. The huge con is his/her bad mobility which is very bad and a bit the frame data, the rest is pretty solid ( great missiles, kill throws, great strings, kills with anything, etc).

Notes: Actually this tier is pretty hard to number, all this characters are so close that from g & w to robin theres no HUGE gap unlike past tiers, so all this characters IMO are very viable with a secondary.

: I was debating where to promote him or Robin. Tl has great mobility, aerials hits like a truck and terrific zoning tools. The only con is his frame data which is not that good but still i could see him in tier 4 bottomg.
: Still the only easy way to deal with him is to play a a massively campy/ spammy game . Shielding and spamming, besides that he is really hard to deal with. Lots of tools to play with.
: his offstage is abysmal, but if played without mistakes his neutral is ridiculous.
: even tho he relies on reads and punishing ish game, the tippers are too strong.
: never understood why would someone consider him tier 6, he hits like a truck and punishes very good. Great short hop and frame data. Only downside is his offstage.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Why are people countering so much.

We can't get the correct characters up or down when it's all counters.

Edit:And srrsly, If Marth goes up and Lucina goes down....

 

[Routa]

Why are people countering so much.

We can't get the correct characters up or down when it's all counters.

Edit:And srrsly, If Marth goes up and Lucina goes down....

Because some of us think some of the characters don't deserve to go one tier up. Most of people who are counter voting Doc and Kirby have made their statements why they don't deserve to be so high. The problem is that people who vote these characters up are mainly main biased, or people who vote 'cause they saw a character doing well in 1 big tournament.

Also to have good combo game you need to have a reliable way to start the combos which for example Kirby lacks. So overall he has on ok. Or to have a good off-stage game you must be able to do something effectively off-stage (gimp, edgeguard or kill) and get back on stage with ease (good example of characters with good off-stage game are Mii Swordfighter and Pit(s)).

In a perfect world tier list would be based on theory that is backed up with results and not the other way round.

 

[Bowserboy3]

In a perfect world tier list would be based on theory that is backed up with results and not the other way round.

This, and matchup spreads. People seem to forget matchups when talking tier lists.

 

[wedl!!]

+1
-1

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

AHEM. Mikekirby has beaten LARRYLURR in tournament before, as well as several other notable players. Ever considered how Mikekirby does amazing and beats notable players in the fairly minor tournaments he goes too, which includes Beating 4th place at CEO? He's even been shown to do good aganist Vinnie, too. So if Kirby has players this great, Why has he not gotten into anywhere at CEO, EVO, ETC? They WREN'T THERE! I'm not sure why TripleR hasn't shown up in tournaments much (He didn't do that good at big house 5 though so......, and as for MikeKirby he said on the Kirby Social he was on vacation much of summer.

Shieldstun worsened it? Only a tiny bit. Yeah sure he's five times worse.

I'm not sure how the beep the up throw is THAT bad as to be a major gaping flaw. He DOES have other ways to KO, It's not even any worse than most other characters. Has ANYONE ever noticed That EVERY character except for like Ryu and Meta Knight appear to have trouble KOing as people say, when they say KOing problems is a big flaw for Kirby.

So what if back air isn't as good at spacing? It doesn't mean Kirby suddenly can't space anymore!

And, most importantly, You are FORGETTING HOW GOOD HIS STRENGTHS ARE!!!! I absoluty HATE how people are just like "OMG SHULK KIRBY DEDEDE AND JIGGLYPUFF ARE BOTTOM THREE THEY HAVE A FEW MAJOR FLAWS IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE ANY GOOD ADVANTAGES TO AT LEAST HELP THEM OUT!!!" But he does! They all sdo! Yet people say they're like bottom four. His frame data is good, His tilts are amazing, his air attacks are amazing, he has good edgeguarding, good recovery, Great combos, great grabs, great pummel (You can actually USE it, which is rare in this game), Good smashes, and great matchups.

And that's another thing. How could Kirby be low tier, if he has even matchups aganist SHEIK, ZERO SUIT SAMUS, HAS AN ADVANTAGE AGANIST CAPTAIN FALCON, AND MOST KIRBY MAINS THINK HE GOES EVEN WITH FOX? (I think it is 45:55 but eh) Three of those are top tier, one of them is high tier. Hmm............



OKish frame data? Kirby has great frame data....... Srrsly Kurogene give us Kirby's frame data so I can link this person to it..

Also, his matchup spread is OKish, but it's better than any mid-tiers. EVEN aganist Sheik and Zss, And many Kirby Mains think Fox is even (I think it's 45:55 but whatever). That's better than most mid-tiers. Which puts Kirby into the middle tiers.

Also, IMO Kirby is 29th,cI will post my reasons pretty soon.

I don't want to tell you why most of your points are wrong, but I will tell you why hes def not 29th.

I seriously think you forgot what a MAJOR flaw is. It is something blaring in a character that can make a lot of MUs hard, and Kirby has a lot of major flaws.

Worst approach options in the game (by far), horrid mobility, camped out easily, easily gimped recovery, kill power. He has bad kill power because his smashes are insanely slow, his kill throws are bad (and his bad mobility don't help that), and his b-air is insanely unsafe on shield and easy to avoid. He has one reliable kill set-up (back part of u-air to b-air) but it's hard to setup so there's no point.

He has some others (being trash tier after opponent is at like 60%) but I'll avoid those for now. In theory Kirby has amazing strengths, a good combo game and a good edge-guarding game, but his major flaws make these strengths almost unreachable in top level play. Kirby can get camped out, juggled, gimped, and he doesn't get his chances to do 45% off of combos or a good edge-guard.

MikeKirby is a good player, but beating another good player doesn't make you super good. A Yoshi player named Dren beat False's Ryu (who he used in his last tournament) does this make him really good and notable? Not really. TripleR couldn't crack top 32 in a tournament where players like Pink Fresh could. That's pretty bad (no offence TripleR) and MikeKirby is barely a regional threat. Plus most of MikeKirby's wins are customs, where the Sheik MU is not nearly as bad.

oh, MUs. The Sheik MU is bad for Kirby, it's only close in customs. The ZSS MU is debatable, but Nairo says its 60:40 for ZSS and his opinion is better than both of ours on this so let's go with that. The Falcon MU and the Fox MU are the only ones CLOSE to even (and even then imo they are losing MUs), and having 2 close MUs out of maybe 15-20 top/high tiers is pretty bad.

What he has is drowned by his major flaws. There is no possible way he is top 30. "he's ok, about 35-42" - Vinnie

I will leave at that note.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't want to tell you why most of your points are wrong, but I will tell you why hes def not 29th.

I seriously think you forgot what a MAJOR flaw is. It is something blaring in a character that can make a lot of MUs hard, and Kirby has a lot of major flaws.

Worst approach options in the game (by far), horrid mobility, camped out easily, easily gimped recovery, kill power. He has bad kill power because his smashes are insanely slow, his kill throws are bad (and his bad mobility don't help that), and his b-air is insanely unsafe on shield and easy to avoid. He has one reliable kill set-up (back part of u-air to b-air) but it's hard to setup so there's no point.

He has some others (being trash tier after opponent is at like 60%) but I'll avoid those for now. In theory Kirby has amazing strengths, a good combo game and a good edge-guarding game, but his major flaws make these strengths almost unreachable in top level play. Kirby can get camped out, juggled, gimped, and he doesn't get his chances to do 45% off of combos or a good edge-guard.

MikeKirby is a good player, but beating another good player doesn't make you super good. A Yoshi player named Dren beat False's Ryu (who he used in his last tournament) does this make him really good and notable? Not really. TripleR couldn't crack top 32 in a tournament where players like Pink Fresh could. That's pretty bad (no offence TripleR) and MikeKirby is barely a regional threat. Plus most of MikeKirby's wins are customs, where the Sheik MU is not nearly as bad.

oh, MUs. The Sheik MU is bad for Kirby, it's only close in customs. The ZSS MU is debatable, but Nairo says its 60:40 for ZSS and his opinion is better than both of ours on this so let's go with that. The Falcon MU and the Fox MU are the only ones CLOSE to even (and even then imo they are losing MUs), and having 2 close MUs out of maybe 15-20 top/high tiers is pretty bad.

What he has is drowned by his major flaws. There is no possible way he is top 30. "he's ok, about 35-42" - Vinnie

I will leave at that note.

I am not saying either one of you two are right, but I think you are being rather harsh with some of your points. Defienetly not the worst approach in the game, especially when you have characters like Ganon and Dedede, but Kirby's approach is very telegraphed and doesn't shine, and thus, is quite bad. Kirby's Smashes are far from slow, all of them come out between frames 10 and 14. And they aren't terrible in power either. They do kill, but to be fair, they don't kill as quickly relative to most of the cast. Bair isn't that unsafe on shield. In fact, dealing 14 percent damage means the opponent takes a few frames of shield stun, but even so, it's still not fantastic. Personally, with these said, I still don't think it makes Kirby any better. That Vinnie quote just about sums him up perfectly.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I am not saying either one of you two are right, but I think you are being rather harsh with some of your points. Defienetly not the worst approach in the game, especially when you have characters like Ganon and Dedede, but Kirby's approach is very telegraphed and doesn't shine, and thus, is quite bad. Kirby's Smashes are far from slow, all of them come out between frames 10 and 14. And they aren't terrible in power either. They do kill, but to be fair, they don't kill as quickly relative to most of the cast. Bair isn't that unsafe on shield. In fact, dealing 14 percent damage means the opponent takes a few frames of shield stun, but even so, it's still not fantastic. Personally, with these said, I still don't think it makes Kirby any better. That Vinnie quote just about sums him up perfectly.

Ganon has fear though, and DDD got range. They also have more reward off of approaching. His b-air is not really debatable tho it's just bad on shields. But yeah, I think Vinnie's estimamation is about right

 

[Equin0x]

Mazdamaxsti I'm just stuck wondering why you, and others, main characters that you're willing to type mini essays to argue the weakness of and keep in the bottom tiers.

 

[Routa]

Mazdamaxsti I'm just stuck wondering why you, and others, main characters that you're willing to type mini essays to argue the weakness of and keep in the bottom tiers.

Maybe he likes to play as him? I mean not everyone likes to play as Sheik.

 

[Equin0x]

Maybe he likes to play as him? I mean not everyone likes to play as Sheik.

You don't have to play as the best character to play a good character that you enjoy. I'm just asking because I don't see the appeal in playing a character that YOU're convinced and convincing others is bad. I don't see how you can enjoy yourself.

EDIT: I can understand playing a low tier because you think he's good or fun, but being convinced that they're bad enough to argue that they are bad makes it seem extremely difficult to enjoy to me.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Mazdamaxsti I'm just stuck wondering why you, and others, main characters that you're willing to type mini essays to argue the weakness of and keep in the bottom tiers.

I like playing Kirby, and I have a goal to be the best Kirby on Anthers. I have other mains (ZSS, Falco, a bit of Sheik) but Kirby is my favourite, and I hate when people overrate the **** out of my main. I have competitively mained him for 6+ months and I have labbed my match-ups and played vs amazing players, and when someone's like "combos = good" it gets me in rant mode

Also I like writing essays and I like debates, so why not?

 

[TimG57867]

I want to share my thoughts on the matter.

I am actually fully content with the spot Kirby has: around the best of his current tier. (though I wouldn't mind seeing him in the bottom of Tier 4). I actually think that by design, Kirby has the tools to deal with pretty much any character. He has good tilts and aerials for combos, small frame which makes him tougher to hit, a great crouch to bypass projectiles from a lot of characters, kill throws, a combo throw, an Up B that creates a transcendant blade and projectile which can beat out appraoches and approach in turn, and an Inhale can put foes in a bad position or take their power which in some cases can completely change a matchup. On paper, Kirby would be able to handle the great majority, if not the entire cast.

It's just that right now, a lot of his tools just haven't been implemented well. His tilts and aerials would be great for combos and approach, but for some reason he has slower aerials than a lot characters of similar class. I mean for some bizarre reason, his N-Air comes out frame freaking 10. Same for his Up Air and F-Air. Compare this to other similar combo characters like Mario, Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu, or Meta Knight who have aerials that are often done in half the frames or less. Notably mention goes to his D-Air which possibly his best move yet has 18 frames of startup. Considering how slow Kirby is in general mobility, it's strange why this move has so much startup, especially compared to Fox's D-Air. His only fast aerial is B-Air. His unusually slow aerials make it tough for him to keep. This makes hit harder for him to challenge foes in the air or make his strings last than it should be. I also feel that Kirby's Smashes are too slow as well. By themselves it may not seem slow, but consider Kirby's range and speed and you find that getting them to hit is a lot harder than it should be. The frame 14 Up Smash is especially notably as it's pretty much slower than almost every other Up Smash of its type, so slow that Kirby can't even drop shield and hit his opponent with it quickly enough if they hit his shield from above. You are also correct in that his Up Throw is a just too weak. Kirby can't setup a kill off his grabs so he needs a reliable kill throw but his Up Throw is very underpowered, not killing Mario until about 190% bar DI. (Which is funny though because it's still in Top 20 of strongest Up Throws). Considering its animation, it's rather abusrd that characters like R.O.B and Marth have stronger Up Throws.

I personally think that the biggest issue with Kirby's whole neutral though is Final Cutter. I am surprised by how many overlook what a crucial move this could be. I think if Final Cutter had the startup of Upper Cutter and way less endlag with the range it had from Brawl, it would single handledly make Kirby's neutral solid. Think of all the uses he'd get out of it. The blade would allow him to beat out disjoints and breakable projectiles from a safe distance, even beating things like Yoshi eggs. It'd give him a nice landing option and a combo breaker. It'd become a powerful anti air that would make his matchups against many characters like Peach and Ness improve greatly, and it'd give him a form of approach and zoning. But sadly, the move has massive startup and endlag and got its range neutered. This is the attack I'd love to see fixed most as it would single handedly make so many his harder matchups even or tip in his favor completely.

As for the bit on those top and high tiers, I am reminded of a post Emblem Lord made a while back in regards to how the characters that should beat Ryu handily falter due to being underpowered. I think that by innate design, Kirby beats all those characters. But his tools are too underpowered at the moment for him to properly push those advantages. While I have my own opinions on the matchups individually, I due agree that Kirby isn't QUITE at anti-meta level yet. Getting there but not quite.

Having said all this though, I think Kirby arguably has the most potential of all the characters in his tier and below. Right now I personally feel he's about 31-37. Nice but lacking. But with the correct buffs to his frame data, Final Cutter, and throws, I could easily seem becoming a solid high tier. Thus while I personally have to agree that I don't think Kirby's quite ready to jump to tier 4, he certainly deserves to stay in his current spot as I personally that compared to a lot of the characters around him, if his design was implemented as well as it could reasonably be, he'd have the best time handling the overall cast.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

TripleR couldn't crack top 32 in a tournament where players like Pink Fresh could. That's pretty bad

You say that as I Pink Fresh is a bad player

 

[TimG57867]

You say that as I Pink Fresh is a bad player

Yeah. Honestly, Triple R probably would have made Top 32 easily if he didn't get pooled with freaking Abadango.