Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Macchiato]

+
+
+

 

[Octavium]

+1
+1
-1

 

[RESET Vao]

Rosalina and Luma +
Zero Suit Samus -
R.O.B +

 

[Flux0r]

+ Unparalleled combo game, safe recovery and one of the best projectiles in the whole game.
+ Suprisingly fast, quick finishers and a down-throw that is quick and reliable.
- Heavily nerfed speed and range, unsafe attacks and bad recovery.

 

[16bit]

+1 Ness
+1 Game and Watch
-1 Rosalina

 

[Browny]

UPDATED I will also address points brought up in the thread

Importantly, we are doing THREE MORE updates total, before I decide to move to finalise version 1.0 of this list. I have added gaps to the tiers to space things out before we do this.

+
+
+

Also, can we bump this back up to 5 votes for now? We got almost 3 pages of votes and a Venture Bros. episode between updates, and the list has changed dramatically.

No, 5 votes is too many to count and this way it makes people more careful about their choices. It honestly takes a long time for me to tally these all up, with like 50 votes an update at 5 each, 250 is just too tiresome.

+1 Diddy
-1 C.Falcon
-1 Samus
Also, I think that we should add spaces between the groups to spread them out a bit.

I have done that earlier on, I do that when the tiers become too fat. To be honest they were borderline too fat in the last update, I'll do it this update.

@OP
it doesn't make any sense to shift positions every phase. Sheik is clearly in the first row and if people vote Sheik down it's obviously not because they think Sheik should not belong in the first row, but because she was too high in the list compared to the rest.
When Sheik was solely in the top row and diddy in the row below then people voted Sheik down and Diddy up because they think that they belong in the same row.
At some point we should really put Diddy and Sheik frozen in the Top Row and concentrate votes to other characters. 2 Lists ago the list was pretty perfect in the upper row but then characters got shifted arround because the system used is flawed if all characters alway shift in the direction of their voting because then characters are switching places even though the votes were done to bring them on the same level.
The OP even describes the system but you're not getting any final result when you keep this rule up:



Thanks for reading.

my votes:
- Yoshi
- Rosalina
- Luigi

I know, the top tier is actually really annoying with that so I have a special rule for that tier. If diddy is #1 tier and sheik second, yet the votes would see them swap, I actually make it that no top tier character can be dislodged from top tier.

No matter how many downvotes diddy gets, he will always share top tier. A top tier character can ONLY move below another character over the course of 2 updates, where they need 2 net negative votes in a row, and that just does not happen on diddy. Sheik though, was not immune. She has not ever received consecutive upvote periods in a row while diddy has, she is not protected. No character is. Thats what makes this list dynamic, no character is immune from being moved all over the place, I dont like it when people assume a character is top tier therefore give them special provisions.

Honestly I think its clear sheik should cement that spot at top tier with diddy, but I have to be consistent. Its not fair if I allow say, ganon to go down tiers because 'oh hes the same from brawl' while protecting sheik because 'she has combos' when ive seen some pretty brutal combos from low tier characters. Im not being pedantic, im just saying, I cant protect sheik just because we think she is good. theres not enough proof this early on.

This ain't Brawl, Ike sure as hell is better than Marth at least his aerials ain't laggy af. Faster normals and better air mobility. Imma cancel out that down vote, the mans amazing in this game.

+1 above.
+1 Great MU across the board and doing pretty well in tournaments. Only polarizing MU is Luigi,Sheik,Diddy and Sonic.
+1 This is sad the character who is clearly doing well in the meta isn't even top 2. Where is this bandwagonning coming from?


This is looking like a popularity list especially when Sheik is dropped down so low for no apparent reason.After taking another look you got characters like Kirby,Little Mac,Charizard,Lucina,Marth,Bowser Jr,Falco above MK and Olimar. It really is a popularity list Mii Gunner is low because no one bothers to explore them, same goes for Oli and MK. If you got a small fanbase you can bet your life savings that they'll be at the bottom. Like really Sheiks placement opened a lot of members eyes.

It is a popularity contest, but how else would this thread work? I cant just demand that people only vote on true viability of characters because theyll just go 'no, ill do what i want'. Theres no point trying to hide the fact that popularity skews lists. The actual back-room tier list by the same token is LOADED with popularity bias. You dont have to look further than brawl marth. That character was extremely popular, yet his results were terrible. Due to the sheer popularity of him though, he saw a lot of top 8 places in tournaments. Despite low tiers constantly ranking higher, there was more marths. Like, im not exaggerating here, marth was ranked somewhere around 20th in tournament rankings, but 5th in most popular character at once point.

What I am getting at, is that we cant ever get a list that isnt skewed by popularity, so why even try. At least this list is honest and doesnt pretend is is free from bias when popularity skews results based lists completely.

-1 I don't see him on the same level as Diddy or Rosaluma...
+1 No need for explanation
+1 I'd argue he's mid/high tier.

I think that separating the voting times this much messes with the results a bit. This is the reason why Shiek dropped so low. Because EVERYONE thought she should come down one tier (most of which probably thought she was at the same level as Diddy), but since there was so much time to vote, she had so many -1's against her that she ended up dropping two tiers. This is beginning to provide less accurate results.

As someone else pointed, a character can get -99 votes, they wont go down more than 1 tier. The rule is a character must have a net positive or negative vote to move a tier so if in a period sheik got 10 downvotes and 2 upvotes, she only goes down 1 tier.

Is it to much to ask for more than 3 options? Just glancing at this tier list makes me lol in so many ways. (Never mind Pikachu and Ness being that low, What is LUCARIO doing that low? Then there's Luigi. I know boss makes him look cool and I'm totally cool with him being top 10 but number 2? With Sheik being number 6?! .......I don't even......) In any case, I'm not a fan of this tier list. It's cool though. Maybe over time I'll see what I want to see. For now 3 options..... hrm....


Ness +1 (Has NO business being that low.)
Sheik +1 (Also has no business being that low)
Lucario +1(Seriously, WUT!)

Sorry if this comes off as condescending. I've had my own preconceived notions of a tier list for a while and seeing one so out of place with my own was rather surreal.

Refer to my first answer, its a time issue, it takes so long to do this.

+1
+1
+1

This is also kind of a really silly way to create a tier list. I know its probably the best way to make a community voted tier list, but that doesn't mean its correct/well made, most common opinions are horrible and I think it'd be better to trust a medium sized back room formed of top players/posters.

I respectfully disagree, and do remember, that this is a forum game.

I believe a perfect way to make a list would be to use my method, but restrict it to backroomers only.

It grinds me to no end how they do the blind raw tally voting process because at no time does it allow for a larger-picture, holistic view of the list. I dont want to know what bowser jr rates out of 10, I want to know if hes more viable than DK. its impossible to rate a list all at once rankings characters out of 10 because at NO TIME does that factor in bad matchups vs more common tournament characters. DK could rate a 5/10 by the average system, but what if he had unwinnable matches vs the top 5 characters? it just doesnt work out properly. I was heavily involved in the brawl tier list threads and watching DK be rated mid tier vs a slew of -3 top tier matchups was just ridiculous. If you ask me, a character is low tier if they are unviable and when you have awful matchups vs a multitude of top tier characters, who can all 0-death you, you are low tier. i dont care if he has favourable matchups vs the bottom half of the cast, he is utterly unviable.

If the op was updated more frequently the list wouldn't jump around so much, at the moment everyone is mass +1'ing characters who are too low which will cause them to be too high when the next list comes out. As bad as eventhubs list can be at least that is up to date.

as before, this is a manual effort not automatic and it takes a lot of time to do this all. Further to this by updating it more frequently, the chart below would be quite bare. I deliberately wait to get around 50 votes because this gives time for contentious characters to move up. Often I will see a character like zelda get a + and a - vote early on. If I wait a few more days, suddenly she gets 3+ in a row.

The longer I leave the update, the more it balances out. it takes more work, but if I do it too quickly, characters will rarely get a chance to move since they need + or -2 net positive votes to move and very often characters will sit on -1, 0 or +1 before a sudden surge to get them moving.

 

[Browny]

By the way, Ill do some explaining here of how this all works.

The above is the spreadsheet for this current round of voting.

As you can see, luigi has been absolutely hammered while sheik has gone upwards however for most characters, its actually quite contentious. Just look at Samus, its very even and no one knows if she should be up or down.

To move a tier, a character has to have a net positive or negative vote of +2 or -2. If they end up on -1, 0 or 1, I deem it too close to call. Characters that see higher gains than others actually move above them in tiers. Look at pikachu for example, with 8+ positive votes and unanimous at that, not only will he move up a tier, he will move up higher than anyone else who might also move up a tier with him (such as ness). The cap is, he can not move higher than anyone who stayed in that tier, he will just move higher than others who go up with him.

I hope that makes things a little clearer

 

[Octavium]

I hope that makes things a little clearer

I would recommend doing updates as to where the votes currently stand, daily or bi-daily, most of us community voters don't read all the comments, we simply cast our votes based on the latest list, I'm pretty sure most players agreed that Luigi wasn't No. 2 but we would've probably slowed down if we'd known he was already at ''-5''. I was sure ZSS's standings were accurate in my opinion, but I had no clue she was being voted up so much, so i would've probably casted a vote of ''-1'' just to calm the votes on her.

This would help increase the accuracy of this list, as I don't believe Luigi had to drop so fast. Slow and steady changes take awhile but are more precise.

 

[Browny]

As I explained earlier later though, I want the magnitude of the downvotes to have an effect.

Just look at pikachu and ness. If I showed that both of them were sitting pretty at +5 votes, no one would bother voting for them again. However by hiding it, it shows that pikachu actually is considered better overall.

I know the trade off is that votes seem wasted, but they really arent. those extra votes put characters up and down within their tiers.

I fully get that my style has inconsistencies and it could be more 'fair' to the voters, but this is just how I like doing it. It is dynamic enough that you see the list changing every few days to keep things interesting, but it doesnt make it a real pain to update by doing it every few days. I honestly forget sometimes, but I like keeping results aside until tallying them all up at once.

Also, this is a forum game in a way, the rules dont have to be perfect lol.

 

[Bedoop]

*looks at list*
G&W, Dedede and Wii Fit Trainer at the worst tier?
Something isn't right at all.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

*looks at list*
G&W, Dedede and Wii Fit Trainer at the worst tier?
Something isn't right at all.

Yeah, Lucina and Boy Lucina are missing!

 

[Octavium]

Just look at pikachu and ness. If I showed that both of them were sitting pretty at +5 votes, no one would bother voting for them again. However by hiding it, it shows that pikachu actually is considered better overall.

How can you be so sure? Probably all the Pikachu voters simply thought that he deserved a slightly higher spot on the tier list and not a big leap. Having him move only slightly would've been more loyal to the voters's views of his position. The only way to know for sure is to avoid keeping it hidden.

I know the trade off is that votes seem wasted, but they really arent. those extra votes put characters up and down within their tiers.

A goal of a tier list isn't to have it change often, but for it to become more accurate as it changes, I'd argue that a democratic vote system is flawed. But striving for improvement should be our goal as a community.

I fully get that my style has inconsistencies and it could be more 'fair' to the voters, but this is just how I like doing it. It is dynamic enough that you see the list changing every few days to keep things interesting, but it doesnt make it a real pain to update by doing it every few days. I honestly forget sometimes, but I like keeping results aside until tallying them all up at once.

Why should a tier list be interesting if it is meant as a tool to scale and measure a character relative to the other characters? What you have here is a creation that is used often despite it not being fully accurate. Hows about we make it better? :D

Also, this is a forum game in a way, the rules dont have to be perfect lol.

Improvement doesn't mean perfection buddy! xD
But if you don't want the headache, would it be fine if I did the bi-daily updates on the votes?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Improvement doesn't mean perfection buddy! xD

I know that from experience! XD

 

[Ze Diglett]

+1 Really? Mid-tier would be understandable, but Robin is arguably better than every character in his current tier. He absolutely needs to move up.
+1 Godlike recovery, crazy powerful at mid-high %, Aura Sphere is absolutely disgusting. Easily deserving of high tier status.
+1 Insanely adaptable with Monado Arts, aerials have crazy reach. Definitely above most characters in his tier.

 

[Doruge]

+1
+1
-1

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

+1
-1
-1

 

[Forty4]

+1
-1
-1

 

[TTYK]

+ Way above the people in the tier he is with.
- Just because Mew2King was caught off guard once doesnt mean much.
+ Camping around at the speed of sound, got places to go gotta kill everybody!

 

[ama99]

+1
-1
-1

 

[Browny]

Improvement doesn't mean perfection buddy! xD
But if you don't want the headache, would it be fine if I did the bi-daily updates on the votes?

After we finish version 1 of this list (In around 6 weeks, the voting phases will go until around Feb 20, then the voting on individual tiers will take another month) I plan to step aside from this. Normally I reboot the thread between SWF official tier lists to keep things interesting while the actual tier discussion takes place in the competitive boards.

If someone else wants to take over though after that, I dont mind. If you or anyone wanted to modify how this works, feel free to go ahead but only after we finish version 1.0 of this.

 

[Maysoon]

I'm guessing the new voting period has started due to the update of the list?

+1 I know he is my main, but he just seems a bit too low from my experience playing as him and against him. Definitely not god like but should be a bit higher.

+1 Just so good with his aura and rage, at 90% he can easily kill an opponent that has freshly respawned.

+1 Just so much potential. Kind of the same story as Shulk, so many options but also has a high skillcap.

 

[LonkQ]

+1
+1
-1

 

[SharpMcHappy]

+ (simply nullifying the - he got because he's just fine where he is)
+
+ (has more potential than most characters on this list, I just don't think he's used well enough)

 

[Macchiato]

+
-
+

 

[Raijinken]

+1
+1
+1

 

[Jucchan]

Jigglypuff -1
Kirby -1
Wario +1

 

[Alex Night]

+1: His punish game is very much strong and in a game where reads and punishes are more prevalent, he deserves a higher spot.
+1: The power that a patient Bowser can hold even when facing against opponents that can zone him is quite intimidating.
+1: I still see that Link is not getting enough credit in this game when his zoning game is still very good and his close up pressure with his Nair and Fair helps him with Close Combat.

 

[Runic_SSB]

+
+
+

 

[Novice_Brave]

+
-
+

 

[elmike]

rosalina -1
fox -1
donkey kong -1

 

[atomicblast360]

+1 King Dedede
-1 Meta Knight
- 1 Donkey Kong

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

+ +
+ +
- -
​

 

[pacha]

+
+
+

 

[Altea77]

+1 (He's not that bad guys ...really... stop)
+1 (Top 5)
-1 (From what i've heard is only good with customs... He can't be the only one on here who gets customs...)

 

[lijero13ss]

+1
+1
+1

 

[Tyketto]

+
-
-

 

[Jiggly]

+luigi
+jigglypuff
+falco


Jigglypuff seems to be in the right place now

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

+ Still a bit better than where he is.
+ Same as Kirby.
+ why so low?

 

[Ze Dewott]

+1 Shulk
+1 Toon Link
+1 Robin

 

[JmacAttack]

+1 Ganondorf
+1 Sonic
-1 Yoshi