Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

She doesn't even scream that much in her actual game. But that doesn't mean I won't play her. Or at least with headphones while listening to music.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Don't worry, it will be fixed in the next......... oh yeah

Yeah this is pretty much it for Smash 3DS / Wii U. Amazing how much has happened after a full year.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Can't wait to Go Witch Lunge duo in a doubles tournament next Sunday with my friend who is going to use Bayo

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The very last dlc for Smash 4...and maybe the last Smash for a long time unless it comes out on the NX(combining both the Wii U and 3DS content together)

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I won't see this as a farewell... I see this a the true dawn of Sm4sh!

Let's Smash our way into the future!

 

[FamilyTeam]

Fox's screams are annoying but at the very least they're funny.
HYAOW!
GYAAA?!

But Bayo's? Eh... I don't know. It's gonna be another annoying scream we'll have to get used to.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Dragon Lunge looks like a good move to get back on the stage

 

[Diddy Kong]

That wouldn't make much of a difference though because ZeRo and ESAM are not of equal skill level. If ZeRo had to try harder with Diddy against ESAM than when he uses Sheik, it would mean that the matchup is somewhat in Pika's favor, but ZeRo still is a much better player.
Also, you already got your wish, lol:

Zero is so good 😤😤😤 he bodied me in 6 straight sets of Diddy pika. Uuugggghhhh

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) January 30, 2016

So now just one question remains...

Why isn't it common knowledge that Diddy > Pikachu? Diddy has all the tangable results Pikachu wishes he had.

"But muh full potential"? I don't care. Pikachu has no real results to speak off, the fact he's always placed higher than Diddy is just not right. Hell, I would argue even Sonic has better results than Pikachu currently, Fox to. Yes, I do think Pikachu is better than those, but Diddy is still better than him.

ZeRo might not be a Diddy solo main, but he'll wipe the floor against anybody with Diddy. I bet the only reason he doesn't use Diddy that much is because of the ideal 'element of surprise' tactic. The less experience ZeRo's opponents have with Diddy, the better for him. Plus, his Sheik is nearly perfect. The fact he even chooses to pick Diddy instead of not using him at all already says the character is full of potential.

And again, just WATCH ZeRo's Diddy in action and tell me Diddy is NOT a Top 5 character I dare you...

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So now just one question remains...

Why isn't it common knowledge that Diddy > Pikachu? Diddy has all the tangable results Pikachu wishes he had.

"But muh full potential"? I don't care. Pikachu has no real results to speak off, the fact he's always placed higher than Diddy is just not right. Hell, I would argue even Sonic has better results than Pikachu currently, Fox to. Yes, I do think Pikachu is better than those, but Diddy is still better than him.

ZeRo might not be a Diddy solo main, but he'll wipe the floor against anybody with Diddy. I bet the only reason he doesn't use Diddy that much is because of the ideal 'element of surprise' tactic. The less experience ZeRo's opponents have with Diddy, the better for him. Plus, his Sheik is nearly perfect. The fact he even chooses to pick Diddy instead of not using him at all already says the character is full of potential.

And again, just WATCH ZeRo's Diddy in action and tell me Diddy is NOT a Top 5 character I dare you...

Who do you think is top 5

 

[David Viran]

So now just one question remains...

Why isn't it common knowledge that Diddy > Pikachu? Diddy has all the tangable results Pikachu wishes he had.

"But muh full potential"? I don't care. Pikachu has no real results to speak off, the fact he's always placed higher than Diddy is just not right. Hell, I would argue even Sonic has better results than Pikachu currently, Fox to. Yes, I do think Pikachu is better than those, but Diddy is still better than him.

ZeRo might not be a Diddy solo main, but he'll wipe the floor against anybody with Diddy. I bet the only reason he doesn't use Diddy that much is because of the ideal 'element of surprise' tactic. The less experience ZeRo's opponents have with Diddy, the better for him. Plus, his Sheik is nearly perfect. The fact he even chooses to pick Diddy instead of not using him at all already says the character is full of potential.

And again, just WATCH ZeRo's Diddy in action and tell me Diddy is NOT a Top 5 character I dare you...

OK Diddy isn't a top 5 character. I guess he could be but saying that he is because zero can beat good players with him isn't a very sound argument. Zero is the undisputed #1 player in the world who rarley even drops sets and that's mostly because of his skill not so much his character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Who do you think is top 5

Probably this:

>>.

Actually kinda hard to choose between Sonic and Fox.

OK Diddy isn't a top 5 character. I guess he could be but saying that he is because zero can beat good players with him isn't a very sound argument. Zero is the undisputed #1 player in the world who rarley even drops sets and that's mostly because of his skill not so much his character.

At top level, it's still impressive. is also a character who takes a lot of skill since his Hoo-Hah nerf. With the buffs to his Smash attacks since a few patches back, he's definitely a formidable character, but even at his weakest I doubt he was ever worse than say, . Diddy's tool set and amazing neutral, combos, and banana stage play are just too good not to be Top 5 honestly.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Probably this:

>>.

Actually kinda hard to choose between Sonic and Fox.

At top level, it's still impressive. is also a character who takes a lot of skill since his Hoo-Hah nerf. With the buffs to his Smash attacks since a few patches back, he's definitely a formidable character, but even at his weakest I doubt he was ever worse than say, . Diddy's tool set and amazing neutral, combos, and banana stage play are just too good not to be Top 5 honestly.

Litertatly my exact top 5

 

[Deleted member]

I still believe has what it takes to be top 5. He has some of the best talent in the world playing him, and his meta has nowhere to go from here but up with how intricate he is as a character.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Alright, so I FINALLY finished my tier list. I'm actually busy right now, and will start posting reasons for placements in two hours and try to finish it ASAP. But for now:

S:

A:Borderline:

B:Borderline:

C+:

C:

D:

E+:Borderline:

E:Borderline:

Credit to @Zero Soul for the borderline idea. It really helped for certain characters!

NOT ALL CHARACTERS HAVE THEIR REASONS HERE YET

:Bowser is overrated. He's not bad at all, but not really that good either. The up throw buff strongly helped him. by giving him good combos and a good way to kill. However it IS possible to quickly avoid the kill from what I've seen. He also still has his flaws too, and is slow, has bad landing and ending lag (Startup is surprisingly okay), and others

:Charizard I feel is very underrated. He has one of the strongest kill throws, a good combo throw, great kill power, great weight, good aierals, great tilts, and actually good combos despite being a super heavyweight. He can get the kill pretty easily with up or down smash, and forward smash with a read. His main problems is bad frame data on many kill moves, and even other moves. He also has a terrible recovery. These are all major flaws that drag him down, but I think he can still be 38th despite this.

:Jigglypuff is easily the most underrated character in the game. People consider her bottom 3 or even the worst, when that should or (For last). She IS low tier, but she really isn't bottom tier. She has great aierals, great edgeguarding the second fastest air speed, 6 jumps, a forward air wall of pain, and, while they don't combo much, she CAN get followups from jabs and up tilt. Which is another thing, Jigglypuff has many misconceotpions, Jigglypuff DOES have some good ground moves, and a few (But not much, and none of them are that good) throw combos. Rest is good for KOing, although if it doesn't star KO or Screen KO, you can get punished for it. Pound and dash attack are pretty good too. She also has a great crouch for certain moves (Although it isn't as useful as Kirby's since she is mostly in the air). She is so underrated it's disquesting (It isn't as bad as Link's overrating though)

:Link is one of the most overated things in the entire world. Honestly, I think he is garbage. And this is why:
Really, he has little strengths. He has a good projectile with bomb, good KO power, probably good damage-racking, and oretty good weight, and that's about it. Wheras he has a genrally bad matchup spread, terrible speed and frame data, mostly bad moves (Except for down air, up air, bomb, up b, Z-air, jab, up smash, and forward smash), and bad results. I have no idea how people think this character isn't bad.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Alright, so I FINALLY finished my tier list. I'm actually busy right now, and will start posting reasons for placements in two hours and try to finish it ASAP. But for now:

S:

A:Borderline:

B:Borderline:

C+:

C:

D:

E+:Borderline:

E:Borderline:

Credit to @Zero Soul for the borderline idea. It really helped for certain characters!

Notes and reasons later, busy right now

I have many questions to ask and I know they will be answered later:

Why are Plau and Link Bottom 5 when Puff is not?
Why is Charizard soo high?
Why is Roy SUPER low?
Why is Kirby above WFT and Falco and others?
Why is Greninja below Lucario?
Why are the Pits above Rob?
Why is Mario below Ness?
Why is Diddy above Sonic(This is more controversial, but I just want to see your side)


This may have sounded harsh, but it was not meant to be harsh.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, so I FINALLY finished my tier list. I'm actually busy right now, and will start posting reasons for placements in two hours and try to finish it ASAP. But for now:

S:

A:Borderline:

B:Borderline:

C+:

C:

D:

E+:Borderline:

E:Borderline:

Credit to @Zero Soul for the borderline idea. It really helped for certain characters!

Notes and reasons later, busy right now

I'm just gonna say right off the bat you having Link in bottom 5 is more or less your ridiculous bias against him rather than him actually being a bad character. There's no reason he should be there.

Also, can we please kill the myth Charizard is better than Bowser?

 

[Browny]

Yes this will start up again after the DLC comes out, but not immediately after. I dont want people voting the new characters high tier on day one because thats what always happens without proper testing.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Yes this will start up again after the DLC comes out, but not immediately after. I dont want people voting the new characters high tier on day one because thats what always happens without proper testing.

Dw, me and feelicks will more than likely be doing DLC character matches that day so we can learn more about them. #CorrinHype

 

[DMWN]

Yes this will start up again after the DLC comes out, but not immediately after. I dont want people voting the new characters high tier on day one because thats what always happens without proper testing.

A little bit like what's happening right now with Cloud.

 

[Deleted member]

Dw, me and feelicks will more than likely be doing DLC character matches that day so we can learn more about them. #CorrinHype

A day is far from enough time to fully know a character. They'll be fun to do, but I'm just pointing that out

Also, Browny has a point. Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy were all pretty damn high on the list when they were released. Mewtwo and Lucas are legit good characters though, at least.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Also, can we please kill the myth Charizard is better than Bowser?

Honestly, I think Bowser and Charizard should both be the top of D at worst, but both could easily be low-C, IMO. But there's no way Bowser is at bottom of D if Charizard is at the top, they're both really good superheavies that shouldn't be very far apart in the tiers. It's almost a Pit/Dark Pit situation with those two, except neither are clones of the other.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I think Bowser and Charizard should both be the top of D at worst, but both could easily be low-C, IMO. But there's no way Bowser is at bottom of D if Charizard is at the top, they're both really good superheavies that shouldn't be very far apart in the tiers. It's almost a Pit/Dark Pit situation with those two, except neither are clones of the other.

Pretty much.

I feel like Zard has a harder time taking off a stock compared to Bowser (bar up throw), and he has a worse OoS game than than him. With that said, Zard has a lot of good tools most heavies wish they'd have. Frame 4 jab, Rock Smash being a genuinely good move with a long-lasting hitbox and super armor, and one of the best spikes in the game. His biggest problem is that his crap air speed and low jumps hurt his spacing and approach game. If he had his Brawl air speed at the least, he'd be in a better spot than he is now.

 

[my_T]

Alright, so I FINALLY finished my tier list. I'm actually busy right now, and will start posting reasons for placements in two hours and try to finish it ASAP. But for now:

S:

A:Borderline:

B:Borderline:

C+:

C:

D:

E+:Borderline:

E:Borderline:

Credit to @Zero Soul for the borderline idea. It really helped for certain characters!

Notes and reasons later, busy right now

First i would like to say that i take BOTH RESULTS and THEORY into consideration when it comes to tier lists. By theory i mean frame data, special abilities, attributes (disjoints, projectiles, range, etc. Basically anything that gives said character an advantage over others in comparison)

I agree with most of the top half of this tier list with a few exceptions.

I would put mario in front of ness. I think toon link and rob should be in front of ike. I think G & W should be at the bottom of B tier. I find it absurd that anyone would think that he isnt better than every character in C+ and lower.

The bottom half of this tier list is a little iffy to me. Doc, mac, bowser, link, palutena, roy, duck hunt, shulk, marth, lucina, and samus should be in front of charizard

i put zard under them because no results and HORRIBLE frame data; start up and end lag for days. his armor moves are nice but far too risky

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Pretty much.

I feel like Zard has a harder time taking off a stock compared to Bowser (bar up throw), and he has a worse OoS game than than him. With that said, Zard has a lot of good tools most heavies wish they'd have. Frame 4 jab, Rock Smash being a genuinely good move with a long-lasting hitbox and super armor, and one of the best spikes in the game. His biggest problem is that his crap air speed and low jumps hurt his spacing and approach game. If he had his Brawl air speed at the least, he'd be in a better spot than he is now.

Don't forget that lovely grab and great throws, as well.

Hell, give him airspeed and jumps like, say, Mewtwo and he'd probably be considered top-tier material, really; almost a Rosalina-Lite, depending on spacing properly to get the most out of his moves.

And again, I don't get how Charizard is so crap in the air if it's own Pokédex entries mention that it can apparently fly up to 4,600 feet into the air, it can learn Fly and it's a Flying-type Pokémon.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

A day is far from enough time to fully know a character. They'll be fun to do, but I'm just pointing that out

Also, Browny has a point. Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy were all pretty damn high on the list when they were released. Mewtwo and Lucas are legit good characters though, at least.

Yeah that is true. People were also saying Cloud was terrible, and well look at him now.

 

[FamilyTeam]

We should probably give the new characters a few weeks before judging them.
By then, we will have mostly learned them and the hype/hate will have died down. Then we could look at them more objectively.

 

[my_T]

Dastardly Ridleylash

having a good grab game will only take you so far. charizards neutral game is pretty bad because: alot of start-up and end lag, lack of disjoints, huge hurt box, the combination of the first three reasons make his moves high risk, and a crappy proectile.

his grab game is good but this means nothing when most of the roster is faster, safer, and has better tools than charizard. This is why characters like DK, and bowser arent higher on the tier lists. They lack a great deal in neutral game compared to most characters despite their VERY GOOD grab game.

same go's for ness. His neutral game is bad compared to other characters in A and S tier. this is why there's only two ness players that actually produce results at major tournaments despite there being a fair amount of ness players out there.

neutral game is EVERYTHING. After that it's recovery

 

[ShadowGuy1]

We should probably give the new characters a few weeks before judging them.
By then, we will have mostly learned them and the hype/hate will have died down. Then we could look at them more objectively.

I think we should probably do like 1 or two voting sessions without bayo and corrin and then add them in the direct middle and have them move from there Browny

 

[Wintermelon43]

Here is my Link Reason

Link is one of the most overated things in the entire world. Honestly, I think he is garbage. And this is why:
Really, he has little strengths. He has a good projectile with bomb, good KO power, probably good damage-racking, and oretty good weight, and that's about it. Wheras he has a genrally bad matchup spread, terrible speed and frame data, mostly bad moves (Except for down air, up air, bomb, up b, Z-air, jab, up smash, and forward smash), and bad results. I have no idea how people think this character isn't bad.

 

[Browny]

I think we should probably do like 1 or two voting sessions without bayo and corrin and then add them in the direct middle and have them move from there Browny

Considering that this update will likely come with some sort of balance patch, its possible that people could over/underrate a whole bunch of other characters, not just the DLC, on day one.

So I will wait about a week.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Here is my Link Reason

Link is one of the most overated things in the entire world. Honestly, I think he is garbage. And this is why:
Really, he has little strengths. He has a good projectile with bomb, good KO power, probably good damage-racking, and oretty good weight, and that's about it. Wheras he has a genrally bad matchup spread, terrible speed and frame data, mostly bad moves (Except for down air, up air, bomb, up b, Z-air, jab, up smash, and forward smash), and bad results. I have no idea how people think this character isn't bad.

I remember some Link at evo getting far and Hyrule Hero. it might have been the same person.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Both of you two are wrong, it comes out the 3rd for the US because Japan is one day ahead of us silly!I am SUPER hyped if you can't tell by any of what I am saying or my avi or my mains bar. I also dropped cloud right before he got bodied in that tournament.

Well, part wrong. It does indeed come out on the 4th... in the UK, so that's all I'm bothered about.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My final opinions of 1.1.3 before a likely balance patch is released (BL stands for Borderline, where I feel the characters are on the verge of two tiers):

S: ,

A: ,,,,,,,,, BL:,

B: ,,,,,,,,,,, BL:

C: ,,,,,,,,, BL:,

D: ,,,,,,,,, BL:

E: ,,,,

F:

I did not include Mii's this time, due to their seemingly unused nature, and unfortunate lack of character knowledge, but they would all probably slot in between Charizard and Puff. For reference, I rate the Mii's anyway as >>.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Dw, me and feelicks will more than likely be doing DLC character matches that day so we can learn more about them. #CorrinHype

Don't count me out. I may do some testing with bayonetta(can't get corrin lol)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well, part wrong. It does indeed come out on the 4th... in the UK, so that's all I'm bothered about.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My final opinions of 1.1.3 before a likely balance patch is released (BL stands for Borderline, where I feel the characters are on the verge of two tiers):

S: ,

A: ,,,,,,,,, BL:,

B: ,,,,,,,,,,, BL:

C: ,,,,,,,, BL:,

D: ,,,,,,,,, BL:

E: ,,,

F:

I did not include Mii's this time, due to their seemingly unused nature, and unfortunate lack of character knowledge, but they would all probably slot in between Charizard and Puff. For reference, I rate the Mii's anyway as >>.

There is defitenly not a Jigglypuff tier. She is absoluty NOT a brawl Ganondorf.

Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Kirby are defitenly not that low either, wth???? It litertatly doesn't make the slightest sense.

Edit;Rob's spot makes no sene either, there is no way he's that high.

 

[Bowserboy3]

There is defitenly not a Jigglypuff tier. She is absoluty NOT a brawl Ganondorf.

Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Kirby are defitenly not that low either, wth???? It litertatly doesn't make the slightest sense.

Edit;Rob's spot makes no sene either, there is no way he's that high.

Jigglypuff is in her own tier because Mii's aren't included in this one (Brawler WOULD be with her).

Jigglypuff, DHD, and Mega Man don't really have as many results, and the latter two are just too niche IMO. I respect Kirby though, but I feel that tier placing does him justice. He is by no means bad at all. That place is fine.

And R.O.B. has solid results thanks to notable players such as 8BitMan and Mister Eric. R.O.B. was high mid tier in Brawl, and has been buffed in transition to Smash 4. Though you could argue that others being buffed too could cause him to not rise, I'd argue against when he has an above average neutral, great zoning game, throw to kill combo etc.

 

[Deleted member]

Jigglypuff is in her own tier because Mii's aren't included in this one (Brawler WOULD be with her).

Jigglypuff, DHD, and Mega Man don't really have as many results, and the latter two are just too niche IMO. I respect Kirby though, but I feel that tier placing does him justice. He is by no means bad at all. That place is fine.

And R.O.B. has solid results thanks to notable players such as 8BitMan and Mister Eric. R.O.B. was high mid tier in Brawl, and has been buffed in transition to Smash 4. Though you could argue that others being buffed too could cause him to not rise, I'd argue against when he has an above average neutral, great zoning game, throw to kill combo etc.

Mega Man has ScAtt, who got Top 8 at both Tipped Off 11 and MLG World Finals. Those aren't results you can ignore, especially with the many tools Mega Man has at his disposal.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Mega Man has ScAtt, who got Top 8 at both Tipped Off 11 and MLG World Finals. Those aren't results you can ignore, especially with the many tools Mega Man has at his disposal.

That's pretty neat actually!

However, I still find Mega Man niche, especially when certain characters can completely negate most of his moveset with reflectors...

... or even by standing still

 

[itsmeMOB]

Okay, so after Genesis and watching other tourneys, I have more.

My tier list is based on my experiences with the character, the tools they have/MU spread, and what I've seen competitively (for at least the HIGHER tiered characters). I'm now going to exclude the Miis because of the whole moveset controversy and because they've always been up for debate.

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

Projected?:

A- to B-:
B?:

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, so after Genesis and watching other tourneys, I have more.

My tier list is based on my experiences with the character, the tools they have/MU spread, and what I've seen competitively (for at least the HIGHER tiered characters). I'm now going to exclude the Miis because of the whole moveset controversy and because they've always been up for debate.

S:
A+:
A:
A-:
B+:
B:
B-:
C+:
C:
C-:

Projected?:

A- to B-:
B?:

Gonna point out some things here:

• I disagree a ton about you placing Bowser, Charizard and Donkey Kong all below Dedede. Not only are they all better characters than him and have more efficient toolkits, but they get much more reward than Dedede do. DK has a decent amount of top level reps that do well with him too.
• Mewtwo isn't bottom 10. Neither are Doc, Robin or Bowser. Jr.
• Ike definitely isn't worse than Link or Roy, especially with the latter two's lack of rep and results.

I'm happy you put Ryu in top 10 though, I agree with it. Same for Villager. Diddy definitely should be higher though imo.

 

[itsmeMOB]

Gonna point out some things here:

• I disagree a ton about you placing Bowser, Charizard and Donkey Kong all below Dedede. Not only are they all better characters than him and have more efficient toolkits, but they get much more reward than Dedede do. DK has a decent amount of top level reps that do well with him too.
• Mewtwo isn't bottom 10. Neither are Doc, Robin or Bowser. Jr.
• Ike definitely isn't worse than Link or Roy, especially with the latter two's lack of rep and results.

I'm happy you put Ryu in top 10 though, I agree with it. Same for Villager. Diddy definitely should be higher though imo.

I do agree with Donkey Kong being better. I think that the ceiling for the heavies is about the same, but I think the best one is Bowser. I also agree DK has way better results than all of them, I wasn't thinking about DKWill or M2K at the time.

Mewtwo's lack of reps besides Blue (who's the only I can name) is what made that decision for me too. He has great tools, but he's overall a glass cannon in general. I have Robin and BJr. there due to lack of reps as well. We still don't know the full potential of either, and Tweek is the only guy I see getting results with Bowser Jr. I wish Doc was better because I like him, but his recovery is atrocious, plus he has flaws as a character and lacks what regular Mario has that makes him good.

Ike is underrated as well, but I don't know who else uses him besides Ryo. I'd give him the edge over Roy because of his ridiculous range but he's still decently laggy as a character. I still think Link is better than some people think he is, though, but a lack of representation hurts that too.

Ryu has a crazy ceiling, I think he could be top 5 in the game. Focus Attack is so crazy, you have so many setups you can do with him too. Villager's rising because of watching Ranai and MJG as well, watching them made me realize how much better he actually is. Diddy is good, but not like he was pre-nerfs, but I still think he can produce decently, just not as well anymore.