Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Bowserboy3]

Be careful with the u-tilt and d-air combos as Samus. They might register as true combos, but can be tech'd so they aren't really guaranteed.

Also, don't depend on d-tilt to start combos. None of them are guaranteed, so they just won't work against a good opponent. D-tilt is good, but it's not a reliable combo-starter.

(Not trying to criticize your reasoning, it's sound enough overall. Just offering some advice in case you didn't know that stuff.)

Yeah, the Utilt and Dair ones require missed techs to become true combos, and Dtilt gets less reliable as the opponents % goes up, but I get what you are saying. Thanks

 

[DarkK]

Yeah but tier 3 is really big. Also, when a character goes down a tier, they are placed above the other characters in that tier (The next people to go down the tier above would go above THOSE people too, and so on.). Kirby is in 28 th, NOT 16 - 33

He's not 28th, as if he gets enough votes to go down, he would go down. He's tier 3, not 28th, not 33th, not 64th, just....tier 3.

IMO, they should split tier 3 and have Kirby be part of tier 4 (which would be consisted of everyone from onwards, if I was in charge of the list.) He's not on the same level as

As for the comments, I agree. It's really hard to maneuver her in the air with these floaty physics, making it hard (at least for me) to approach characters sometimes. I still main and enjoy Jigglypuff, but she's in need for a few buffs. Maybe a bit more weight or something.

 

[Wintermelon43]

He's not 28th, as if he gets enough votes to go down, he would go down. He's tier 3, not 28th, not 33th, not 64th, just....tier 3.

IMO, they should split tier 3 and have Kirby be part of tier 4 (which would be consisted of everyone from onwards, if I was in charge of the list.) He's not on the same level as

As for the comments, I agree. It's really hard to maneuver her in the air with these floaty physics, making it hard (at least for me) to approach characters sometimes. I still main and enjoy Jigglypuff, but she's in need for a few buffs. Maybe a bit more weight or something.

I think he's better than Peach and Rob.

And, characters ARE slightly ordered in tier, otherwise we'd need 55 tiers.

 

[Wintermelon43]

@ Wintermelon43 doesn't agree that a tier list should be representative of the current meta, but should be what the characters ultimate potential is.

The problem with voting that way is that you can only ever know how things are now, not in the future. In 3-4 years, it's likely Kirby could be higher, but it's also possible we'll find some new tech where half the cast becomes hard counter to him and he becomes useless.

I'm not voting off of possible 3-4 year pontentntial, I'm voting on current character knowledge.

 

[dbwithlemon]

And, you realize, I'm referring to 3-4 years of time, when the metagame is complety differant and new things have been discovered?

I'm not voting off of possible 3-4 year pontentntial, I'm voting on current character knowledge.

So, your logic for votes is referring to 3-4 years, but your vote themselves are based in the present?
Ok, yeah, that makes sense to me. Lets go with that.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, your logic for votes is referring to 3-4 years, but your vote themselves are based in the present?
Ok, yeah, that makes sense to me. Lets go with that.

No, My votes, and reason for votes, are current meta game.

 

[dbwithlemon]

No, My votes, and reason for votes, are current meta game.

Ok,lets expand on that. The current meta game is largely defined by tournament results. Yet you've said before you think voting should be based off of the character, not their results.

You're free to vote based on whatever you wish, I just want to clarify your stance as you seem conflicted with your previous comments.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Ok,lets expand on that. The current meta game is largely defined by tournament results. Yet you've said before you think voting should be based off of the character, not their results.

You're free to vote based on whatever you wish, I just want to clarify your stance as you seem conflicted with your previous comments.

Well, the meta game in characters, sorry. not results. Unless I'm mistaking what results are? Does results mean what we've seen by a character from a player playing them (NOT going by what number spot they are, but by voting based on what we know, aince somebody haa used that, which is proof that it's true, or is that also theory craft)? Since if that isn't the case, we would be voting based on players, like ZeRo, Dabuz, etc.

(Not gonna to reply again since this isn't the point of the thread)

 

[Axel311]

+1 Dr. Mario
-1 Rosalina
-1 Yoshi


Dr. Mario being that low on the tier list is silly, he's not THAT much worse or different from regular mario to merit being on the opposite end of the tier list. And people seriously exaggerate his recovery issues. Still has a strong combo game and a nice projectile for neutral. Rosa I'm convinced is overrated. She has no results other than Dabuz (and a little from abadango), and Dabuz hasn't even done that well in the past few big tournaments. She's super light, is huge, has landing issues and has a gimpable recovery. Yoshi has almost no results in big tourneys. No way does he deserve to be that high without results. And his neutral is very meh to me.

 

[Fuerzo]

Palutena without customs is pretty bad but hardly the worst. Her default specials are bad and her frame data in general is awful, but she has an okay grab game (including the best pummel in the game!) and has some decent aerial followups.

 

[ShortcutButton]

-1

-

-1

Gold stars for the bunch of yous

 

[Thinktron]

+1
-1
-1

Will this list eventually be finalized as an official list, or is it just another unofficial one?

 

[SoniCraft]

+1
-1
+1

 

[NimbusSpark]

Honestly, ZeRo isn't the best reference. He said that Mewtwo's up-throw, the best and most reliable kill-throw in the game, wasn't that good. (Not as good as Sonic's, he said. Which is blatantly false.) He was one of the people who thought Roy was top 5. His advice for beating Luigi was: play a top-tier character. Then there was the time he said he would focus on Melee for a year after winning EVO. There's a lot more that I don't remember off of the top of my head.

Look, he's clearly and indisputably the best Smash 4 player right now, but he has a proven habit of just saying things without thinking.

Agreed. In his tier list video he called Pac-Man mid-tier just because he lacked a reliable kill-throw, when really, with that sort of logic, other characters like ZSS and Shiek should be around his position in the tier list. Whilst I agree he lacks decent representation, he has excellent potential and has an advantage on some top-tier threats like Luigi (whom I still believe is a bit overrated), and Diddy.

Anyways -
1+
1-
1+

 

[Axel311]

Agreed. In his tier list video he called Pac-Man mid-tier just because he lacked a reliable kill-throw, when really, with that sort of logic, other characters like ZSS and Shiek should be around his position in the tier list. Whilst I agree he lacks decent representation, he has excellent potential and has an advantage on some top-tier threats like Luigi (whom I still believe is a bit overrated), and Diddy.

I've watched that video several times and no, that's not what ZeRo said. You may need to rewatch the video. Pacman not having a kill throw was only one of several reasons ZeRo placed him where he did. ZeRo also said it was because Pacman has so-so customs, no representation other than Abadango at major tournaments and how much skill he requires to play.

I do agree though that ZeRo, while being the best player doesn't mean he is always right. He's definitely biased at times. I remember watching the video he put out complaining about the 2nd Diddy nerf and I raised an eyebrow when he was complaining that Diddy was nerfed and said he was like mid tier after the nerf. That's obvious wrong, Diddy is getting great results today from several players, also ZeRo 3-0'ed and 2-0'ed tons of playeres with Diddy at Evo, including Mr R in grand finals and Diddy is probably currently top 10...then ZeRo went on to complain about DK, a low tier character getting buffs. ZeRo might of had customs DK in mind but still, how can you complain about a low tier like DK getting buffs?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I've watched that video several times and no, that's not what ZeRo said. You may need to rewatch the video. Pacman not having a kill throw was only one of several reasons ZeRo placed him where he did. ZeRo also said it was because Pacman has so-so customs, no representation other than Abadango at major tournaments and how much skill he requires to play.

I do agree though that ZeRo, while being the best player doesn't mean he is always right. He's definitely biased at times. I remember watching the video he put out complaining about the 2nd Diddy nerf and I raised an eyebrow when he was complaining that Diddy was nerfed and said he was like mid tier after the nerf. That's obvious wrong, Diddy is getting great results today from several players, also ZeRo 3-0'ed and 2-0'ed tons of playeres with Diddy at Evo, including Mr R in grand finals and Diddy is probably currently top 10...then ZeRo went on to complain about DK, a low tier character getting buffs. ZeRo might of had customs DK in mind but still, how can you complain about a low tier like DK getting buffs?

ZeRo is a tier wh**e, of course he'd complained about a character getting buffed. This is the same person who used Pit in Project M when he was the best character, and ditched him when he got nerfed instantly.

 

[_gold_]

ZeRo is a tier wh**e, of course he'd complained about a character getting buffed. This is the same person who used Pit in Project M when he was the best character, and ditched him when he got nerfed instantly.

You'd be the same way if that's what got food on your table. Basically, that's ZeRo's occupation. If a top-tier fighter got nerf'd, I would do the same if I were in his shoes. I don't entirely respect the guy, but his actions make sense.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

You'd be the same way if that's what got food on your table. Basically, that's ZeRo's occupation. If a top-tier fighter got nerf'd, I would do the same if I were in his shoes. I don't entirely respect the guy, but his actions make sense.

I wouldn't at all. I'd stick with Pit no matter what. Don't assume something like that. Plus, I'd rather try my best with characters I actually love and be respected for it than hated by tons of players who also stick to the character they love.

 

[Axel311]

ZeRo is a tier wh**e, of course he'd complained about a character getting buffed. This is the same person who used Pit in Project M when he was the best character, and ditched him when he got nerfed instantly.

ZeRo plays to win. He plays whatever character gives him the best advantage, unless he knows the skill gap is wipe enough he can just body the player regardless. There's nothing wrong with playing to win. ZeRo isn't a slave to playing any one character no matter what. This whole tier ***** argument is ridiculous, ZeRo can play the game however he wants, he isn't required to play the game the way others want him to play.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

ZeRo plays to win. He plays whatever character gives him the best advantage, unless he knows the skill gap is wipe enough he can just body the player regardless. There's nothing wrong with playing to win. ZeRo isn't a slave to playing any one character no matter what. This whole tier ***** argument is ridiculous, ZeRo can play the game however he wants, he isn't required to play the game the way others want him to play.

It's not ridiculous at all. ZeRo's the one who said Diddy was to op when the whole Hoo Haa thing was going on, only to main him, and mostly Hoo Haa. I never said playing to win is wrong, but when you just use the top characer without having a reason that's is valid enough to use that character, then it's wrong. Example, Chompy(I believe is his name)had one of the most personal and touching reason why he plays Pit. That goes for pretty much alot of people playing every game, atleast Melee has a reason, which is they can get hyped seeing Fox, Marth, and Falcon because alot of people stuck with them in Brawl and Sm4sh.

 

[_gold_]

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

[Axel311]

It's not ridiculous at all. ZeRo's the one who said Diddy was to op when the whole Hoo Haa thing was going on, only to main him, and mostly Hoo Haa. I never said playing to win is wrong, but when you just use the top characer without having a reason that's is valid enough to use that character, then it's wrong. Example, Chompy(I believe is his name)had one of the most personal and touching reason why he plays Pit. That goes for pretty much alot of people playing every game, atleast Melee has a reason, which is they can get hyped seeing Fox, Marth, and Falcon because alot of people stuck with them in Brawl and Sm4sh.

Right, and what's wrong with any of what ZeRo did? Why is it wrong to play to win? Tournaments are competitions. It's not a requirement to play a character in tourney because you have a passion for them. You can play those character for fun with your buddies in non-tourney matches. Lots of competitive smashers play to win and nothing else, winning is the most fun and satisfying thing for them. Nothing wrong with that. Competitive smash is a competition, there's usually money involved. At big nationals, there's thousands of dollars of potential prize money up for grabs. Why is it wrong for someone to play a character they feel gives them the best chance to win?

 

[Zionaze]

Anybody that throws the term "tierwh*re" around is a casual at heart.

 

[Moffe]

+ ryu
+ mr g w
+ DK

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Anybody that throws the term "tierwh*re" around is a casual at heart.

Not at all. I know competitive players who use tier wh**r alot, and they probably play way better than you. Plus, casuals just make stuff up and use lag against people, so...

Right, and what's wrong with any of what ZeRo did? Why is it wrong to play to win? Tournaments are competitions. It's not a requirement to play a character in tourney because you have a passion for them. You can play those character for fun with your buddies in non-tourney matches. Lots of competitive smashers play to win and nothing else, winning is the most fun and satisfying thing for them. Nothing wrong with that. Competitive smash is a competition, there's usually money involved. At big nationals, there's thousands of dollars of potential prize money up for grabs. Why is it wrong for someone to play a character they feel gives them the best chance to win?

Winning with your character that you've played for a long time is more special than with a character you pick just to win. Competing involves money pretty much all the time. Basketball, MMA, Boxing, all a competition with money on the line.

 

[_gold_]

This argument makes no sense. Just drop it. Have you even considered the fact he may actually enjoy playing as Sheik? Let him be.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

This argument makes no sense. Just drop it. Have you even considered the fact he may actually enjoy playing as Sheik? Let him be.

People like Vinnie yes, ZeRo...highly doubt it.

 

[Zionaze]

I meant the literal term "casual" as in I play for fun over winning.

I wouldn't at all. I'd stick with Pit no matter what. Don't assume something like that. Plus, I'd rather try my best with characters I actually love and be respected for it than hated by tons of players who also stick to the character they love.

This made me think of the "coolguy" in school that refused to study and ends up broke while the nerds become successful.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I meant the literal term "casual" as in I play for fun over winning.

This made me think of the "coolguy" in school that refused to study and ends up broke while the nerds become successful.

I can do both, fun with friends and win with anyone else. You pretty much described For Glory Dark Pit mains, and "5 year olds"(quoted from Acestarthe3rd)

 

[Silxer]

I'm just going to leave my vote before things get too derailed...

-
+


...That's all, can't think of a third one...

 

[Browny]

Rosa I'm convinced is overrated. She has no results other than Dabuz (and a little from abadango), and Dabuz hasn't even done that well in the past few big tournaments. She's super light, is huge, has landing issues and has a gimpable recovery. Yoshi has almost no results in big tourneys. No way does he deserve to be that high without results. And his neutral is very meh to me.

In time, these things will correct themselves. The game is still young and a lot of people are still stuck with their first impressions of the game, or simply need longer to form opinions since there simply isnt enough data out there for people to look into, even if they want to.

I do agree though that ZeRo, while being the best player doesn't mean he is always right. He's definitely biased at times. I remember watching the video he put out complaining about the 2nd Diddy nerf and I raised an eyebrow when he was complaining that Diddy was nerfed and said he was like mid tier after the nerf. That's obvious wrong, Diddy is getting great results today from several players, also ZeRo 3-0'ed and 2-0'ed tons of playeres with Diddy at Evo, including Mr R in grand finals and Diddy is probably currently top 10...then ZeRo went on to complain about DK, a low tier character getting buffs. ZeRo might of had customs DK in mind but still, how can you complain about a low tier like DK getting buffs?

Zero has a history of knee-jerk reaction videos to anything that hits him in a match that he thinks must be OP, or if he lost its because sakurai nerfed his character. He used to say Lucario was broken and overpowered too because he lost a stock to one once. Not even joking.

His youtube channel is good but I wish he'd just stop trying to make videos as fast as possible to put his opinions on changes to the game out there when he's just blatantly wrong in many cases. All he wants is those youtube hits when people want to find out who got buffed/nerfed.

 

[Wintermelon43]

People, stop arguing about zero, or they'll nerf samus.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

People, stop arguing about zero, or they'll nerf samus.

Samus is op, she deserves a nerf

 

[Paxadin]

.

Let's go play some Baseball. Since you don't like being at your top possible play, you can play without a mitt and with a wooden bat.
I'll play with a good mitt and a metal bat.

Have fun.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Let's go play some Baseball. Since you don't like being at your top possible play, you can play without a mitt and with a wooden bat.
I'll play with a good mitt and a metal bat.

Have fun.

Or you know, I can play with that crappy stuff and make it a masterpiece, making you feel like crap. You can hate all you want, you'reeither blinded by ZeRo or you just can't admit it. I mean seriously, who complains about characters like Lucario amd Pacman being op when that same person played Diddy during his Hoo Haa war?

How about you go have fun with that.

 

[Paxadin]

Or you know, I can play with that crappy stuff and make it a masterpiece, making you feel like crap. You can hate all you want, you'reeither blinded by ZeRo or you just can't admit it. I mean seriously, who complains about characters like Lucario amd Pacman being op when that same person played Diddy during his Hoo Haa war?

How about you go have fun with that.

And I can play with the good stuff and make it a better masterpiece.
I don't get your point.
I could make a master piece with good equipment that'll look better and be more efficient, or I can use crappy equipment and put much more effort for a lesser result.

And if anything, none of us are hating, so far it's only been you hating on ZeRo. I don't even like him (And it's pretty funny that you assume I do), but not using a top tier because he's a top tier is rather stupid if you're playing to win. Also what does him having an opinion on characters he doesn't like have ANYTHING to do with the current conversation?

Lay off the passive-aggressive.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

And I can play with the good stuff and make it a better masterpiece.
I don't get your point.
I could make a master piece with good equipment that'll look better and be more efficient, or I can use crappy equipment and put much more effort for a lesser result.

And if anything, none of us are hating, so far it's only been you hating on ZeRo. I don't even like him (And it's pretty funny that you assume I do), but not using a top tier because he's a top tier is rather stupid if you're playing to win. Also what does him having an opinion on characters he doesn't like have ANYTHING to do with the current conversation?

Lay off the passive-aggressive.

You think I'm the only one who's hating on ZeRo because I'm taking about him in ONE thread. Using something that's good won't give you victories unless the person you play against sucks. I don't have to assume anything, I can tell you're blinded by him(never even said you like him, assumptions). ZeRo is only a "top tier" player because he uses top tier characters(Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, Project M Pit before he was nerfed, Sm4sh with Diddy and Shiek). Having an opinion on a character he doesn't like is important. Brown stated that ZeRo called Lucario broken and op because he lost a stock to one in the past.

Maybe you should be laying off the passive-aggressiveness and see the hypocritisy from him.

 

[_gold_]

Keep this up and y'all will get this thread locked.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Keep this up and y'all will get this thread locked.

Wont mind

 

[Wintermelon43]

Keep this up and y'all will get this thread locked.

Exactatly, stop argueing tmntnumbers