Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Wario Bros.]

Replace KFC with good game arguments and you'll have me.

 

[Champ Gold]

Calling OOT overrated nowadays is ridiculous. I've seen people bashing it to hell and beyond these past few years. Sure, it HAS been overrated but it's currently considered "terrible" by a ****ton of people.

I blame Egoraptor's garbage Sequelitis video comparing OOT to ALTTP, one of the stupidest comparisons since both games are radically different from each other now

 

[Khoru]

i'd consider ace attorney a classic
it has such good gameplay

I blame Egoraptor's garbage Sequelitis video comparing OOT to ALTTP, one of the stupidest comparisons since both games are radically different from each other now

his arguments in it didn't even make sense

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's a video game.

You have to play it.

If we ever want to raise the bar on the video games of the future, we have to take every factor into account. Most classics have strong gameplay, weak plot. This game has weak gameplay, strong plot.

If it's only draw is it's storyline, it's better compared to noninteractive media like books, movies, and TV shows than other video games.

To be honest, someone could easily make a game with just as skilled of writing as this but drastically better gameplay.

If you take gameplay as the biggest factor, then I won't stop you. I think that's where the real subjectivity starts.

I judge on the overall quality and experience. And IMO Undertale has the better overall experience than Ocarina of Time.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I can get the fad feeling, but IDK, there's a certain tenderness, feeling, calling in my heart that legitimately believes Undertale is much better than any of those games you mentioned Awesomedude.

It's called determination.

You'll never give up. Even if there if there is absolutely no benefit to preserving whatsoever. Just because you think you can. And because you "can," you "have to."

On a serious note Undertale is a good game. It has good gameplay. It has good writing. And there is a lot of hard work put into this game. But thats it. They are only good. I have seen funnier games. I played games I found more fun. I have seen a mixture of both.

 

[FalKoopa]

It's very interesting to say the least how this debate is going.
Do you guys want me to make a thread about Undertale vs. Ocarina of Time so we can post there?

Not really.

The poll doesn't need a thread for discussion. And I think we're better off without it as in the end, it's pretty subjective.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Calling OOT overrated nowadays is ridiculous. I've seen people bashing it to hell and beyond these past few years. Sure, it HAS been overrated but it's currently considered "terrible" by a ****ton of people.

OoT is certainly enjoyable, anyone who says it's outright terrible is outright wrong. There's a reason 3D Zelda has always followed OoT's footsteps, because OoT is a damn fine game

I blame Egoraptor's garbage Sequelitis video comparing OOT to ALTTP, one of the stupidest comparisons since both games are radically different from each other now

That video was garbage because of multiple reasons. Especially the whining about what Skyward Sword did to the bombs, that's good, I shouldn't have to throw a bomb to get an idea where it'll land!

i'd consider ace attorney a classic
it has such good gameplay

his arguments in it didn't even make sense

That's a visual novel, the argument doesn't work

 

[Frostwraith]

Ocarina of Time has aged pretty well, IMO. It's still quite fun to play.

Wind Waker does improve many aspects present in Ocarina of Time, such as combat, though it has its flaws as well.

 

[Strofirko]

Are we talking about a "dead poll" again?

 

[BluePikmin11]

It's called determination.

You'll never give up. Even if there if there is absolutely no benefit to preserving whatsoever. Just because you think you can. And because you "can," you "have to."

On a serious note Undertale is a good game. It has good gameplay. It has good writing. And there is a lot of hard work put into this game. But thats it. They are only good. I have seen funnier games. I played games I found more fun. I have seen a mixture of both.

Funnier games? Show me now! :O

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

Ocarina of Time is one of the best.

 

[Captain Fun]

It's a gamefaqs poll. I haven't played Undertale (wanna get around to that since I love the stuff the indie scene comes up with) but taking a gamefaqs poll seriously as a measure of what is objectively the greatest game out there is dumb. These hissy fits are dumb. Stop.

So much bitterness over a still, fairly niche RPG. I remember the fallout when PC Gamer gave Spelunky game of the year- this is like, the same thing.

Calling OOT overrated nowadays is ridiculous. I've seen people bashing it to hell and beyond these past few years. Sure, it HAS been overrated but it's currently considered "terrible" by a ****ton of people.

Calling OoT overrated is kinda silly- even if you don't think it's the best Zelda game. It still brought about so many conventions used today in games (with the Z-target camera becoming a staple in 3D action games).

It's a video game.

You have to play it.

If we ever want to raise the bar on the video games of the future, we have to take every factor into account. Most classics have strong gameplay, weak plot. This game has weak gameplay, strong plot.

If it's only draw is it's storyline, it's better compared to noninteractive media like books, movies, and TV shows than other video games.

To be honest, someone could easily make a game with just as skilled of writing as this but drastically better gameplay.

I mean, Phoenix Wright doesn't really have gameplay, but I don't think that many people will contest its status as a game or question it's quality.

Games as a medium are incredibly diverse. Most RPGs are kinda weak in the actual gameplay department. Hell, Earthbound's gameplay is pretty weak with poor pacing and balance.

 

[Solfiner]

Anyways, a "best game ever" poll is really stupid in the first place. Comparing games of vastly different genres to eachother makes no sense, and it's always ultra subjective.

For example, Xenoblade is somewhere in my top 10, I've put well over 500 hours into that game yet it lost round one.

 

[FalKoopa]

Funnier games? Show me now! :O

Ace Attorney is pretty funny.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

I can get the fad feeling, but IDK, there's a certain tenderness, feeling, calling in my heart that legitimately believes Undertale is much better than any of those games you mentioned Awesomedude.

Its all subjective and i like you blue so i wont continue this "debate" much longer.first let me say i dont hate undertale really sans and megalovia are some of my favorite thing in gaming.but the game play really is simple.Like especially when compared to other bullet hell games.And to me the story while deep its black and white the nautural path is pointless and the genocide ran tries mulitple times to get you to try and do the pacifist run.And the game to me doesnt even come close to beating earthbound let alone mario galaxy or any zelda game.But opinions

 

[Cutie Gwen]

'bes gaem evur' polls are **** measuring contests, and they're so pitiful. Even I'd win

 

[Wario Bros.]

So, uh, to change the subject...

...only 6 hours left!

 

[Khoru]

Funnier games? Show me now! :O

Tales of Game's Presents Chef Boyardee's Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden: Chapter 1 of the Hoopz Barkley SaGa

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Funnier games? Show me now! :O

Calling something funny is weird. There is two things to keep in mind. It is subjective and it isn't constant.

Like, I found some jokes funnier in X than I did in Undertale but that doesn't mean X is a consistently funny game. Especially since the main focus is fighting to survive. The first game was incredibly funny though and I find more quotable than Undertale.

Goat Simulator and I am Bread were funny the first time I saw them.

All 5 games and even the spin off were also hilarious. (Maybe less so for Apollo Justice).

I mean yes, Undertale is still funny. But it is a different kind of humor. Undertales humor relies on not expecting it. Xenoblade has it's ridiculous quotes. And Phoenix Wright has set ups for them.

 

[Substitution]

So, uh, to change the subject...

...only 6 hours left!

That it is.
And I for am glad as I made an error in my scheduling. So I'll see it live with the rest of ya.

 

[Deleted member]

Games are supposed to be an amalgamtion of its various aspects to create an "experience"
Visuals, music, writing and, most importantly, gameplay
Undertale fails on the most important of them

 

[Bedoop]

What If:
Geno Hat isn't actually a Mii Costume, it's just a Model for Geno (As a DLC Fighter) and Sakurai put it in the data as a Mii Hat just to **** with us
What would your reactions be

 

[Deleted member]

My friend was going to miss the Smash Direct because he was taking a final.

Then all Los Angeles schools got closed today because of a bomb threat.

Sakurai must really want people to see this presentation!

Which reminds me, what time is the presentation in pacific standard time?

 

[Solfiner]

Oh my god, some of the sidequests in X are brilliant.

 

[ChronoBound]

We are less than six hours away before the final DLC characters are unveiled to us.

The last time I made a post was SIX months ago, and I have pretty much retired from speculation, but here is what I think will be the final characters shown in the direct.

First off, I think we may most likely only be getting Cloud, Midgar, and the two Mii hats (Chocobo and Geno) tomorrow in terms of the actual DLC update since that was all that was shown in the update that was datamined.

I think the other DLC characters are simply not complete yet (with the obvious exception of Wolf).

Anyway, here is what I believe we will be seeing later today.

Wolf: He is long overdue. He performed very strongly on the ballot and has a major role in the upcoming Star Fox Zero. I feel he is a character that is being deliberately held back, and had Star Fox Zero been released in November as originally planned, we would have likely gotten him in today's DLC pack, if not sooner. I imagine Wolf will be released to coincide with Star Fox Zero's new release. He is the last veteran I see being brought back as DLC for Smash 4.

I feel there is going to be not just one, but TWO ballot winners. I feel this was not Sakurai's original intention. I think it was a combination of it being both the massive success of the ballot and another major outside factor which I will soon get into.

Ballot Winner #1:

K. Rool: I think while many believed that a Mii costume spelled deconfirmation for this character, and I think originally Sakurai was not intending on bringing K. Rool in. I think after or near the conclusion to the ballot, Sakurai came to the conclusion that this was a character that was very highly requested would still be a good choice even if he only originally felt the character was served well through a Mii costume.

I think K. Rool basically was the default choice in comparison to other popular choices. Shovel Knight and Shantae are both third-party characters that are virtually unknown in Japan, and even in the West they are only known to a small avid fanbase, not to mention that they are nobodies in comparison to every other third-party character that have gotten into Smash Bros. Other popular choices included Banjo-Kazooie which is even more complicated due to the fact that a competitor now owns the character (Minecraft appears to be an unique case, considering that it was ported to Sony consoles even after Microsoft acquisition of Mojang).

Other very popular requests seem to be Wolf, Snake, and Ice Climbers, all of whom are veterans, and thus would not fit well with being a ballot winner, which the theme of which is to get an entirely new character into the series. Even if this was not the case, all three of these veterans having something going against them. With Wolf, he was likely planned to return around the same time Lucas and Roy were greenlighted, thus probably did not even benefit from the ballot. With Snake, Konami's dismal treatment of Kojima has likely soured not only himself but also Sakurai from bringing the character back into Smash Bros. Ice Climbers have technical limitations holding back their return for Smash 4.

In terms of actual Nintendo newcomers, there are very few characters to choose from. Isaac has long been thought to follow closely in K. Rool's shadow, but there are several things that I think keep him from being ballot winner potential. One is that despite the character hailing from a JRPG series and having a strong anime aesthetic, nearly all of Isaac's popularity is from the West. There are a few requests for Isaac among Japanese fans, but the amount of requests is definitely very, very lopsided between the two regions. Secondly, Isaac does not contrast much compared to many other characters already on the roster, and even among the DLC received thus far, he would be another JRPG swordsman with a strong anime aesthetic. Cloud in particular sealed whatever meager hope Isaac had on getting in. Isaac simply does not contrast as much as Sakurai would hope for in a ballot winner, and his small fanbase in Japan made him a non-starter as well.

Another highly requested Nintendo newcomer is also Bandanna Dee. This character is highly requested all over the world, though more so in Japan. Despite likely bringing an entirely new weapon into the Smash Bros. series, he has an unique obstacle that likely has made him declined as a ballot winner choice. Namely, Sakurai's own personal feelings in regards to the Kirby series. Sakurai has traditionally looked at Waddle Dee as being nothing more than the Kirby series's Goomba, and not someone on par with the likes of Meta Knight. Sakurai might also be biased against any Kirby content made outside the games he was strongly involved with (Dream Land, Adventure, Superstar, Air Ride). Bandanna Dee is one of the few very notable Nintendo characters not to receive any sort of reference between both versions of Smash 4, even despite him having the option of ripping his model for a trophy like with Magolor. There is also the matter of that Sakurai is very self-conscious about being seen as biased in favor of series that he was personally involved with (Kirby and Kid Icarus). I doubt Sakurai would want to be accused of making a Kirby character one of the ballot winners due to personal bias, especially when he is probably not personally keen on the character.

Another very highly requested Nintendo newcomer who likely did very well on the ballot is Paper Mario. Paper Mario has a very impressive resume as is, and will probably eventually get into Smash Bros. (the same probably goes for Bandanna Dee, though its less certain in his case). It also helps that Paper Mario had a prominent role in a new game being released at the same time DLC is being developed. However, as is the case with the rest of K. Rool's competition, Paper Mario likely has a few issues that made Sakurai question the character as a prospective ballot winner choice. One is that Mario has not only received more than enough content in the base game, but DLC as well (two stages as well as several Mii costumes). I also think Sakurai felt that many would be put off at the prospect of PURCHASING a third Mario to be on the roster.

K. Rool seems all considered the default choice in regards to picking a ballot winner. The only thing that is not in his favor is him being absent from his franchise for over eight years, and gone from games for nearly eight as well. He seems precisely like a character whom could only have gotten in through the ballot as a result of the present circumstances, while also having a wide legacy that prevents him from being an obscure choice that would flop upon being offered as a character to purchase. He is very highly requested over the entire world, and even among newer generation of players who may be unfamiliar with him or find his design off-putting, would be intrigued or amused by his animations and standout moveset.

Ballot Winner #2:

Inkling: There is only one other titan out there that could compete with K. Rool as an "acceptable" choice for a ballot winner and that is from Nintendo's possibly only bright star from the Wii U debacle. Splatoon has been a massive success for Nintendo considering the platform its on. The popularity of Splatoon is even more highly pronounced in Japan, where despite being by far the smallest of the three major markets for home consoles, it probably has enjoyed the highest sales there than of any other region. Splatoon is currently the third highest selling Wii U game in Japan, with only New Super Mario Bros. U and Mario Kart 8 having higher LTDs. It is on track to sell over a million copies in Japan alone (and that is just including physical copies).

Splatoon has a massive fan following producing lots of fan content, especially so in Japan. In Japan, already a lot of merchandise has already been produced for Splatoon. I suppose, like with K. Rool, Sakurai originally thought that Splatoon was adequately represented for Smash 4 with just the Mii Hats + Outfits. This content was decided before Splatoon exploded in popularity.

Even before Splatoon saw a snowball effect with its sales, there was always a sense of "this character will eventually get in" with the Inklings. However, Splatoon's unexpected level of success changed things. The character likely ended up being among the most requested characters through the ballot especially so among Nintendo newcomers.

I think this unexpected popularity for Splatoon was what will provide the impetus for Sakurai to change his mind from "next time" to "this time". He realizes that there are many people that would be inclined to BUY the Inklings to get to play as them for the current iteration of Smash Bros.

Another factor in this all, is that Sakurai is probably self-conscious about how Japanese fans may perceive K. Rool as the sole ballot winner. There is a very vocal segment of the Japanese Smash Bros. fanbase that believes Sakurai cares too much about what "foreigners" want and not enough about what the domestic fanbase wants. K. Rool being a Western created characters whose most notable games were all Western developed probably has that sort of aura more than any other character who was added to Smash 4 with the exception of Little Mac. I have personally seen several Japanese commenters mention how much they detest K. Rool's design, with one user even going so far as to say he would throw out the game if something as hideous as K. Rool made its way onto the roster.

The Inklings provide an anathema to that issue. The Inklings are one standard deviation higher in their popularity in Sakurai's homeland than anywhere else. They also would still be just as well received outside Japan as within it. Overall, it will be the very strong popularity that Splatoon has enjoyed that have bumped the character to "now" instead of "eventually".

Another Surprise Guest:

I am personally expecting one more surprise guest to make it as DLC for Smash 4. This is a character that is likely much less notable than not just every third-party character that has made it into Smash Bros. already, but also a lot less notable than a lot of Nintendo's franchises...

Rayman:
Rayman is an oddity. The character received several trophies in the Wii U version of Smash 4, yet no playable representation. Ubisoft is among the biggest publishers in the game industry and were a strong supporter of the Wii U for the first year or two of the console's life. However, Rayman has never been a major character and has never had a game that has defined gaming or a generation like Pac-Man, Sonic, Ryu, Cloud, Mega Man, or Snake have. Rayman has always kind of been just there, despite his games usually being regarded as "good".

Rayman has virtually non-existent requests among Japanese fans, and even in the West his requests are probably even less common than they were for Pac-Man. What really set off requests for Rayman was that fake leak with the plausible render in it. If that never happened I do not think there would have been a notable level of interest in Rayman.

Well, I believe that like with other developers, Ubisoft had probably approached Nintendo/Sakurai about including Rayman (probably even during Smash 4's development). Sakurai probably said that it was too late to include them (and probably had private reservations about including a third-party character who had negligible requests and had nothing iconic about him). I think Ubisoft has again approached Nintendo/Sakurai while DLC was being developed, and this time Sakurai agreed to it (they also probably hoped to get Rayman's inclusion to tie in with his 20th anniversary, but alas these things take time).

I also think the ballot played a role in Sakurai agreeing to include him. Among Western Smash fans, Rayman is probably the most requested third-party character that is not an indie (Shovel Knight and Shantae), veteran (Snake), or owned by the competition (Banjo-Kazooie). I think this proved to Sakurai that there is interest in the character.

However, unless the character is sold at a discount (or even made free), I can foresee Rayman being the worst selling DLC character. The character is almost unknown in Japan, and even in the West he is less known than many of the characters already in Smash Bros. If Ubisoft agrees to release the character for a lower price than other newcomers (or possibly free) though, it could produce massive benefits for the future of the Rayman series going forward, exposing the character to a massive audience largely unaware of the character.

60 characters altogether is really something. The combined choice of K. Rool and Inklings as DLC, as well as all the additional guests that were added as DLC (Ryu, Cloud, possibly Rayman) firmly makes me think Sakurai is gearing this as his final Smash Bros. game (not including a possible Smash Wii U+ that ends up being a launch or launch window title for the NX).

I do plan to further explore this in my Roy post-mortem, which I aiming to finally finish some time early next year. This truly feels like an end to Smash Bros. It is a shame that many characters (Ridley in particular) will likely never get in, but at this point, there is really no where Smash Bros. can go from here in terms of character additions to be on par with the previous installments. Paper Mario, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong, and a Rhythm Heaven rep are not enough to carry a game. This will likely be the last Smash Bros. (aside from an enhanced port of Smash Wii U being released for the NX) for a long time.

Aside from the lack of Ridley, I feel satisfied with this roster (and potential one outlined here). Again, I will explore this all further in my Roy post-mortem. I am now done with speculation and the Smash Bros. community in general outside of finishing my farewell.

 

[Chrono.]

OoT got me into LoZ and this was circa 2011, I think the game still holds up really well.

Granted, I like every other 3D Zelda I've played more but I still really liked OoT.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Anyway, as i said. Everyone have different opinion. We don't like all the same thing. Otherwise the world would be boring, but please. Don't say that this game is bad and should not deserve any love because you don't like it. Because in the end. We are doing debate over a GameFAQ Poll.

Do i need to say more?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What If:
Geno Hat isn't actually a Mii Costume, it's just a Model for Geno (As a DLC Fighter) and Sakurai put it in the data as a Mii Hat just to **** with us
What would your reactions be

I would probably put my Smash disk in the microwave

 

[BluePikmin11]

Games are supposed to be an amalgamtion of its various aspects to create an "experience"
Visuals, music, writing and, most importantly, gameplay
Undertale fails on the most important of them

Undertale doesn't exactly deep gameplay, but it still has its gameplay with morality choices and the bullet hell system to at least make it stand out a bit. Not the deepest gameplay, but its simple enough to understand and its fun deciding the choices you can do to certain monsters in the game to have a good time. Doesn't necessarily fail IMO.

 

[FalKoopa]

Games are supposed to be an amalgamtion of its various aspects to create an "experience"
Visuals, music, writing and, most importantly, gameplay
Undertale fails on the most important of them

Do you not consider Visual Novels to be games?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Do you not consider Visual Novels to be games?

Undertale doesn't advertise itself as a Visual Novel though, does it?

 

[Coricus]

It's a gamefaqs poll. I haven't played Undertale (wanna get around to that since I love the stuff the indie scene comes up with) but taking a gamefaqs poll seriously as a measure of what is objectively the greatest game out there is dumb. These hissy fits are dumb. Stop.

So much bitterness over a still, fairly niche RPG. I remember the fallout when PC Gamer gave Spelunky game of the year- this is like, the same thing.
Calling OoT overrated is kinda silly- even if you don't think it's the best Zelda game. It still brought about so many conventions used today in games (with the Z-target camera becoming a staple in 3D action games).
I mean, Phoenix Wright doesn't really have gameplay, but I don't think that many people will contest its status as a game or question it's quality.

Games as a medium are incredibly diverse. Most RPGs are kinda weak in the actual gameplay department. Hell, Earthbound's gameplay is pretty weak with poor pacing and balance.

Well if you want to call Undertale a visual novel then go right ahead. It's a genre, but there's a reason some TV Tropes pages classify visual novels separately from other video games.

As for weak RPG gameplay, that just means the genre as a whole needs to try harder. Just because X game had weak gameplay does not excuse Y game from having even weaker gameplay.

If you take gameplay as the biggest factor, then I won't stop you. I think that's where the real subjectivity starts.

I judge on the overall quality and experience. And IMO Undertale has the better overall experience than Ocarina of Time.

Well fair enough. I like to judge each factor on it's own instead of as a whole, but that's a personal preference.

 

[powerprotoman]

guys isnt there a less stale debate we could be having? i mean honestly in the time this poll has been up we have made ridley debates seem like a fresh and inviting thing to do

 

[Deleted member]

OoT got me into LoZ and this was circa 2011, I think the game still holds up really well.

Granted, I like every other 3D Zelda I've played more but I still really liked OoT.

The game that got me into Zelda was Phantom Hourglass
And everyone seems to hate that game
I live it though, boomerang and bow and arrows are just to fun to use
And it has the best Zelda character of all time, the one and only, Captain Linebeck
Final boss is bull**** though because I can't draw a ****ing eight in the touchsreen I control my character with

Undertale doesn't exactly deep gameplay, but it still has its gameplay with morality choices and the bullet hell system to at least make it stand out a bit. Not the deepest gameplay, but its simple enough to understand and its fun deciding the choices you can do to certain monsters in the game to have a good time. Doesn't necessarily fail IMO.

The problem is that Pacifist Route is a big trial-and-error puzzle game(Undyne and Mettaton EX are the biggest offenders of this) and Genocide run has only two actual bosses
RPG gameplay never comes into play
And the morality system is flawed, you're either good or bad, if you go "Neutral" only one choice really matters and the other differences for the choices you make are just some lines at the end

 

[A Distant Demon]

We just had datamining and we're talking about the GameFaqs poll again

Even if we didn't have an incoming direct we shouldn't have brought that garbage up in the first place.



Just realized doctor mario and jigglypuff in Cloud's victory video is a reference. Im dumb.

FF is a really boring symbol.
I would have vastly preferred Meteor or even a Crystal

Oh well

 

[FalKoopa]

Undertale doesn't advertise itself as a Visual Novel though, does it?

No, it's not a visual novel. It's probably a puzzle-RPG.

His point was that Undertale doesn't offer a good gameplay - I don't exactly agree with it, as I honestly liked the battle mechanics.

My point is that a game shouldn't be judged for something which it never was meant to be in the first place. We don't criticise Mario games for not having deep stories, or visual novels for barebones gameplay.

 

[Chrono.]

The PS YT account just posted this and...

That game is 5 years old, that trailer isnt even for a remaster or anything

Sony wht r u doin

 

[Schnee117]

The PS YT account just posted this and...

That game is 5 years old, that trailer isnt even for a remaster or anything

Sony wht r u doin

They put a in charge of their YT today it seems.
Though I would love for Shattered Dimensions to be remastered.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you not consider Visual Novels to be games?

Well, you see

Undertale doesn't advertise itself as a Visual Novel though, does it?

there's a reason some TV Tropes pages classify visual novels separately from other video games

Basically these

No, it's not a visual novel. It's probably a puzzle-RPG.

His point was that Undertale doesn't offer a good gameplay - I don't exactly agree with it, as I honestly liked the battle mechanics.

My point is that a game shouldn't be judged for something which it never was meant to be in the first place. We don't criticise Mario games for not having deep stories, or visual novels for barebones gameplay.

If it was meant to be a Puzzle-RPG, then it failed at the RPG part
I don't think I even have to mention why

 

[Coricus]

Oh my god, some of the sidequests in X are brilliant.

You mean the exploding plush lobsters?