Social Swamp's Social Thread 3 - And now, the end is near, and so I face the final curtain...

[Tr1pleDee]

Oh, you mean this Podcast right here?

I just listened to that entire thing. No regrets.

"If Chorus Kids aren't revealed in December, we need to make a petition."
I second this notion.

Also...

Spoiler: Version without quote:

 

[LIQUID12A]

You think a character being made a notable NPC and another getting his own Mii outfit shortly after his popularity exploded disagree with that?

Well, when you consider that some people are still mad at Sakurai after a whole year(and 2 days) since he made that quote about Ridley and the fact that huge support for the crocodile led to a costume...I mean, I abide to the mentality that if a character I want gets into the game in some capacity, even as a Mii costume, I'm satisfied, but not everybody is me.

I mean, let's pretend Isaac becomes a costume, not everybody would agree with this quote in hindsight since we've been led to believe Isaac is this hugely supported character on the suggestion box ballot, and the more unreasonable fans would begin to call the ballot a farce.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

He used the same exact word for request when referring to Cloud and when he tweeted the fighter ballot. It's an assumption but it's a pretty safe one.

Eerr. I don't get it. Especially since I don't understand japanese. I don't see how that word can't mean something different.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Well, I mean, did he actually say Cloud was the ballot character?

Because if not, it is all assumption no matter how you translate it.

This would bring some implications as well.

For example, why was cloud added over other 3rd parties? I mean, what about the minecraft character? I mean surely he is more iconic than cloud and would've been voted in the casual fandom.

Its hard to believe an RPG character would get in over quite a bit of 3rd parties. Especially when its FF where a bunch of people who like FF would be picking characters from all across the games.

So then if Cloud was picked from the ballot it should then mean two things.

One, not everyone is possible for smash as the only reason cloud got in was the ballot and all the other 3rd parties snooze and loose. And adding on to that, this would imply that there are rules since there are quite a bit of characters that could've gotten in like the minecraft character.

Steve? Is not more iconic than Cloud

 

[Bananija]

Maybe Sakurai decided someone like K. Rool is too unimportant to the DK series in its current state to warrant a playable spot on the roster?

While no one can deny the fact that K.Rool didn't appeared in any recent DK titles, he's still a pretty important character nonetheless. The only main game in the series where he wasn't the main antagonist were the two new country's game, and that's without counting the spin-offs he appeared in. He's the Bowser of the DK series afterall. And with Retro knowing that K.Rool is pouplar and supporting the Kampaing, I easily see him as the main villain of the next DK game. I can live with K.Rool not making it in, but I hope it would for a better reason than that.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Well, when you consider that some people are still mad at Sakurai after a whole year(and 2 days) since he made that quote about Ridley and the fact that huge support for the crocodile led to a costume...I mean, I abide to the mentality that if a character I want gets into the game in some capacity, even as a Mii costume, I'm satisfied, but not everybody is me.

I mean, let's pretend Isaac becomes a costume, not everybody would agree with this quote in hindsight since we've been led to believe Isaac is this hugely supported character on the suggestion box ballot.

I dunno I think if Geno somehow made an appearance even in costume it'd be pretty big. Of course I'd still rather have the character.

 

[N3ON]

Well, when you consider that some people are still mad at Sakurai after a whole year(and 2 days) since he made that quote about Ridley and the fact that huge support for the crocodile led to a costume...I mean, I abide to the mentality that if a character I want gets into the game in some capacity, even as a Mii costume, I'm satisfied, but not everybody is me.

I mean, let's pretend Isaac becomes a costume, not everybody would agree with this quote in hindsight since we've been led to believe Isaac is this hugely supported character on the suggestion box ballot.

I can totally empathize with those people, and obviously getting playable characters is the ideal. All I'm saying is that the popularity is not meaningless, it still leads to something, even if it's not the result people wanted. The characters still get attention.

 

[PushDustIn]

Eerr. I don't get it. Especially since I don't understand japanese. I don't see how that word can't mean something different.

Synonymous are a thing in every language. Also, with languages they don't match up one to one; you have words that mean slightly different things so things are sometimes lost in translation. There's some other ways Sakurai could have said "request"; he used the same way as when talking about the ballot.

 

[Burb]

Until Sakurai spells out in more detail what that tweet meant (which will probably come in December) attributing the request to a party not otherwise specified and pretty much putting words in Sakurai's mouth is also "Sakurai's word vs. what fans think", merely just on the other side of the spectrum.

If you don't want to be guilty of that perhaps instead of speaking so definitively you just wait...

I'd love to know what you think he meant, then.

Or how it's logical at all that he'd be asking us for our opinion on a character we don't know about.

You think a character being made a notable NPC and another getting his own Mii outfit shortly after his popularity exploded disagree with that?

Well, yeah, seeing as how people want(ed) them both to be playable.

It wasn't a Mii Fighter Costume ballot, and the Ridley supporters hated the idea of him being relegated to Boss status again that they flat out ignored him being confirmed as one in April 2014's Nintendo Direct all the way up until October of the same year when we were told in the most concrete way possible that he is a boss who will not be playable.

Smash forums aren't going to provide an accurate or full representation of the voting community at large, but they still act as a microcosm of sorts, albeit a skewed one. Other casual characters such as Naruto and Goku still receive support (even if it's not so prevalent on this site), and the community is aware of the demand that those characters have, regardless of how we feel about them. Therefore suggesting Cloud has this huge silent force behind him that literally the entire vocal online community was unaware of is fairly naive. In Japan he had a bit... here it was practically nothing.

Again, popularity is irrelevant.

It is a suggestion box, not a popularity contest.

It's an argument that fits your situation but not one that would otherwise stand on its own, let's be real.

Considering there's more evidence supporting what I'm arguing and literally none whatsoever pointing towards him being pre-ballot other than assumptions and fan theories.....

Yeah, I think it would stand on its own.

There's the scenario that's he's talking about Cloud but isn't referring to fans.

I don't know exactly what he meant by that tweet. Nobody really does, they're guessing. You might be totally right, who knows. What most are doing, however, is disregarding the tweet until more context is provided and a clear message can be derived and are using the other evidence at hand to form their conclusions .

I've already explained why it's more likely than not to be the fans that he's referring to.

Unless you think that Square (who rarely does crossovers with any franchises other than their own) requested Cloud's addition (which, in all honesty, is questionable. I don't think Nintendo/Sakurai would've agreed to it as a marketing scheme for the FF7 remake that's not even going to be on Nintendo platformers, and disregarding the remake, I think there's a pretty major chance Square would've asked for Lightning rather than Cloud if it were their idea). Nintendo makes no sense, either, considering I recall it being stated that they didn't want Snake in Brawl but Sakurai went ahead with it anyway.

You can reply to this if you like Burb, but I don't really intend on furthering the conversation. You may be right, though personally I doubt it, but I've been wrong before and either way I've said pretty much all I've had to say on it by now~

Ciao.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Steve? Is not more iconic than Cloud

Can't say I agree. If I went and polled everyone at my school, I believe I would get more people telling me they heard of Minecraft than FF7 specifically.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'd like to get into Gravity Falls again before it ends, but I really can't be bothered sitting through both the first and second seasons....

 

[Deleted member]

Steve? Is not more iconic than Cloud

At this point? I'd actually say steve is more iconic than cloud. Especially/mainly among the young general audience.

Not that I'm saying that steve was more likely.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Can't say I agree. If I went and polled everyone at my school, I believe I would get more people telling me they heard of Minecraft than FF7 specifically.

I think it takes more than polling some kids to determine an icon

 

[Fenriraga]

I hope you guys don't mind if I stroke my ego a little bit...

I've been re arranging my collection a little bit and I'm pretty proud of it.

Spoiler: Ego Inbound

I have a problem and I refuse to fix it.

 

[Naoshi]

I might just buy yet another shelf, but a small one for my Amiibos.

 

[Bananija]

I think Ridley is the original "bandwagon" character. I won't deny he has a lot of proper fans. But I think he has a lot of people who just say they want him because "he's likely because reasons so I want him" or "he makes sense", not because they actually care about the character.

I kinda agree and disagree at the same time.

I agree because I myself began to support him because that dragon alien thing that I saw in Brawl looked freaking awesome and possible.

I disagree because it's because of that that I learned how awesome Ridley was as a character and that I actually start caring for him. I now like Ridley more than a lot of my favorite Nintendo character. So, I say that those people that "want him because is likely and do not really care about him" are bound to appreciate the character for the good reasons.

 

[LIQUID12A]

I can totally empathize with those people, and obviously getting playable characters is the ideal. All I'm saying is that the popularity is not meaningless, it still leads to something, even if it's not the result people wanted. The characters still get attention.

I dunno I think if Geno somehow made an appearance even in costume it'd be pretty big. Of course I'd still rather have the character.

And that's precisely what I mean by:

I abide to the mentality that if a character I want gets into the game in some capacity, even as a Mii costume, I'm satisfied, but not everybody is me.

Not every single fan is rational. You have some people endlessly pissed about how Ridley was "mistreated" and "Sakurai hates Ridley/Metroid" and how Sakurai is biased against DK and tons of variations of the same hatred quotes that I've seen(the day these end will be the same day Half Life 3 comes out). I mean, just yesterday I saw this gem in a convo:

I just realized we live on a planet where we have Sonic, Mega Man. Pac-Man, Ryu, and freaking Cloud Strife playable in Smash, yet Ridley is still stuck as a bastardized boss that acts completely out of character in a game where (for the most part) the source material is followed as closely as possible.

So really, there's reason to believe the original quote might not be so accurate. Not every single person is accepting to the level that you and me are.

 

[Zane13pyro]

I personally don't believe Cloud was to do with the ballot. I believe either Sakurai wanted him in, or Square Enix struck a deal (I mean the Direct that revealed Cloud had like, 4 or 5 Nintendo exclusive Square Enix games announced or shown off with new details in it).

A lot of people go on about how Cloud means "anyone is possible" and I say this in jest sometimes too, but in actuality, while Cloud was unexpected, he wasn't unprecedented. He may not have been on Nintendo all that much (and all of his appearances are effectively cameos), but Square Enix have a storied history with Nintendo, release plenty of games on Nintendo, and Cloud himself is THE JRPG character, just like how Mario is THE platforming character, Ryu is THE fighting game character, Pac-Man is THE video game character, etc. Considering Sakurai's track record of putting in third party characters that are truly icons, he honestly had every right to be more seriously considered. Kinda like how Rosalina was cast aside as "unlikely" by the speculation community despite her proven popularity, relevance to core Mario, and all of that. People mostly cast her aside because "lol she'd be a Peach clone".



Ignoring whether or not the ballot is a thing, Ridley is a special case. He is a popular choice (albeit in part for the wrong reasons), and Sakurai acknowledged this and outright said he has attempted to put Ridley in IIRC (or at least conceptualised him, I don't exactly remember). But he hasn't been included due to the fact Sakurai doesn't see any feasible way to put him in as a fighter from a technical standpoint, while also keeping the character's defining traits in tact.

As for K. Rool, his Mii costume means nothing. Plenty of characters have Mii costumes now. Inklings have Mii costumes, and even a trophy, and people still think they can get in. I don't see what makes K. Rool different here.

very true oh and its nice to see another Steins;Gate fan :D

 

[ChikoLad]

If you think that Mega Man was a pick who was "just notable", you obviously have little-to-no idea of which characters were wanted and which characters weren't, pre-SSB4.

You misinterpreted what I said, and I guess I could have phrased it better.

Mega Man was wanted by the Smash fanbase, but his popularity went farther than that - Mega Man is just an unofficial Nintendo icon in general. Every Nintendo fan knows who he is. That's why I think he got in based on just the fact he's a character people IN GENERAL like, not just the Smash fanbase.

I also mentioned Rosalina in that grouping, because she's an example of a character who didn't have a big following SPECIFICALLY for Smash, but she's a really popular Nintendo character in general. She didn't need to be popular within the core Smash fanbase. People wanted to see more Rosalina, period. It didn't really matter what game it was in.

Which is an aspect people forget about - core Smash fans are a small part of the Smash demographic. Their picks aren't the end all, be all.

I kinda agree and disagree at the same time.

I agree because I myself began to support him because that dragon alien thing that I saw in Brawl looked freaking awesome and possible.

I disagree because it's because of that that I learned how awesome Ridley was as a character and that I actually start caring for him. I now like Ridley more than a lot of my favorite Nintendo character. So, I say that those people that "want him because is likely and do not really care about him" are bound to appreciate the character for the good reasons.

That's my point though, you saw him in Brawl and genuinely liked him and got interested. That's a natural demand for the character.

I'm talking specifically about people who don't go that far though. I'm talking about people who literally just hear that he has a fanbase and say "I want him because other people do" or something like that, or for pure "representation balance". Like "I don't care about Ridley as a character but we need more villain representation so I want him just for that". That's artificial popularity, and it runs rampant in the Smash speculation community.

I hope you guys don't mind if I stroke my ego a little bit...

I've been re arranging my collection a little bit and I'm pretty proud of it.

Spoiler: Ego Inbound

I have a problem and I refuse to fix it.

We posting Amiibo collections now?

Spoiler

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Soooo... what happens in the event that Cloud isn't or is a ballot character? What then?

 

[ChikoLad]

Soooo... what happens in the event that Cloud isn't or is a ballot character? What then?

I personally don't care either way, I was just stating that I think he isn't. If he is a ballot choice, then colour me surprised I guess. I'm still going to have fun with him either way, and the Amiibo will probably be cool. :V

 

[Bananija]

It wasn't a Mii Fighter Costume ballot, and the Ridley supporters hated the idea of him being relegated to Boss status again that they flat out ignored him being confirmed as one in April 2014's Nintendo Direct all the way up until October of the same year when we were told in the most concrete way possible that he is a boss who will not be playable.

I might sound like a fanboy, but Ridley never was confirmed as a boss, sure he was heavily hinted and looked a lot like one, but no one ever stated before the extravaganza "Ridley is a boss in the new Smashbros and can't be playable." When there is a slim chance that your character can still be playable, you will take it if you're an optimistic person.

And to be fair, I find it hard to believe that the genius know as Masahiro Sakurai and his team of professional can't make a character work when a 14 years old is doing it perfectly fine alone. I do understand however that Ridley is pretty much impossible for this game and that he isn't an easy task.

 

[Deleted member]

Soooo... what happens in the event that Cloud isn't or is a ballot character? What then?

*shrug* Honestly, I was only debating because I was hungry and grumpy.

 

[PushDustIn]

I might sound like a fanboy, but Ridley never was confirmed as a boss, sure he was heavily hinted and looked a lot like one, but no one ever stated before the extravaganza "Ridley is a boss in the new Smashbros and can't be playable." When there is a slim chance that your character can still be playable, you will take it if you're an optimistic person.

And to be fair, I find it hard to believe that the genius know as Masahiro Sakurai and his team of professional can't make a character work when a 14 years old is doing it perfectly fine alone. I do understand however that Ridley is pretty much impossible for this game and that he isn't an easy task.

"Other Bosses appear"

Ridley shadow appears.

How was this not confirmation?

The fan made models of Ridley look silly and only solidifies in my head that he would be near impossible with his current design to be accurately portrayed in Smash.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Soooo... what happens in the event that Cloud isn't or is a ballot character? What then?

No idea. If he is? Okay. If he isn't? Okay.

 

[Deleted member]

*Sees Ridley argument start up* I would join in, but something tells me this is never going to get in until he's completely irrelevent somehow(LOL) or makes it in eventually.

 

[Bananija]

I'm talking specifically about people who don't go that far though. I'm talking about people who literally just hear that he has a fanbase and say "I want him because other people do" or something like that, or for pure "representation balance". Like "I don't care about Ridley as a character but we need more villain representation so I want him just for that". That's artificial popularity, and it runs rampant in the Smash speculation community.

I don't really know a lot of people who think that way to be honest, but I can't disagree that those who support a character for reasons like this aren't doing it for the good ones.

"Other Bosses appear"

Ridley shadow appears.

How was this not confirmation?

He didn't say it, he strongly hinted it. When you don't see the point to tease an highly requested character to a boss role and you're kinda blindly guided by hope, it's easy to don't take this as an official disconfirmation. I'm not saying it was the right thing to think, I just want to explain the point of view.

The fan made models of Ridley look silly and only solidifies in my head that he would be near impossible with his current design to be accurately portrayed in Smash.

This one doesn't look silly to me

 

[ChikoLad]

Bananija I think he doesn't mean Ridley's actual design looks silly. I think he meant like, his proportions compared to other characters looks off and his wings get in the way and clip through a lot of stuff.

I've seen that mod I think, though. It's a pretty good attempt.

 

[Deleted member]

But if I had to say one thing....

to be accurately portrayed in Smash.

That's the thing though, what does it mean to be "accurately represented in smash"? Everyone(And I mean everyone, including myself.) pretty much makes up rules as they go, develpors included.

 

[Bananija]

Bananija I think he doesn't mean Ridley's actual design looks silly. I think he meant like, his proportions compared to other characters looks off and his wings get in the way and clip through a lot of stuff.

I seen that mod I think, though. It's a pretty good attempt.

Ohh, silly me

Either way, I think that baganley doesn't look that silly, especially when compared to this athrocity:

Spoiler: The said atrocity

But I can't take your right to have a different opinion.

 

[PushDustIn]

I don't really know a lot of people who think that way to be honest, but I can't disagree that those who support a character for reasons like this aren't doing it for the good one.

He didn't said it, he strongly hinted it. When you don't see the point to tease an highly requested character to a boss role and you're kinda blindly guided by hope, it's easy to don't take this as an official disconfirmation. I'm not saying it was the right thing to think, I just want to explain the point of view.

This one doesn't look silly to me

I can understand that mindset but we need to let it go. Being guided by hype will only bring the person pain as they cannot comprehend the actual reality. How many times have people been disappointed by hype?? Way too many times.

Still looks silly. I just don't think Ridley with his current design won't work in Smash. If fans want Ridley in Smash then they need to ask Retro/ Nintendo to make a new version of Ridley that can eventually be playable in Smash. It'd be too much of a disservice to the source material to make Ridley playable at this point in time.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is insane.

Regardless of the ballot, Cloud is popular.

We will get some popular characters that everyone likes (Cloud) and we'll get some that the hard core fans really want.

We will get a balance.

We have always had a balance, even since the first game.

You people are forgetting the basics of the roster.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Ridley is such a subjective mess that I don't know why people still argue about it, especially when Ridley has 0% chance of being playable.

The only objective thing about it is is can be done to make Ridley playable. (that's just the way programming works)

Every other thing (looks, feel, etc) about it is subjective. Personally I think Sakurai could make it work. He is a designer with a great mind. Will he? probably not.

 

[ChikoLad]

But if I had to say one thing....

That's the thing though, what does it mean to be "accurately represented in smash"? Everyone pretty much makes up rules as they go, develpors included.

Accurately portrayed just means that a character's Smash portrayal (moveset, animations, personality, etc) conveys the character as closely to the source material as possible.

Some people care more about this than others, and Sakurai seems to definitely care about it, though possibly more so with some characters than others. Me personally, I care about it, but with most characters, I'm OK as long as they get the GENERAL idea of the character down, it doesn't have to be exact. The only character I am really picky about is Rosalina and that's with other games besides Smash, and that's only because there are so many misconceptions about her both in and out of her fandom as is. Smash mostly did her justice though.

 

[PushDustIn]

But if I had to say one thing....

That's the thing though, what does it mean to be "accurately represented in smash"? Everyone(And I mean everyone, including myself.) pretty much makes up rules as they go, develpors included.

You need to read the GDC 2008 slides.

 

[N3ON]

And that's precisely what I mean by:



Not every single fan is rational. You have some people endlessly pissed about how Ridley was "mistreated" and "Sakurai hates Ridley/Metroid" and how Sakurai is biased against DK and tons of variations of the same hatred quotes that I've seen(the day these end will be the same day Half Life 3 comes out). I mean, just yesterday I saw this gem in a convo:



So really, there's reason to believe the original quote might not be so accurate. Not every single person is accepting to the level that you and me are.

I was never arguing how accepting fans can be. To take it back to your previous post, if Isaac got in as a Mii costume and someone disagreed that popularity leads to attention, they'd be wrong. It doesn't matter how accepting they'd be of Isaac's costume or how much they had hoped and/or expected he'd be playable.

If they were lead to believe that popularity is inherently going to make you a playable character, they haven't been paying attention. Popularity can lead to attention. Attention in Smash can take multiple forms.

 

[Bananija]

I can understand that mindset but we need to let it go. Being guided by hype will only bring the person pain as they cannot comprehend the actual reality. How many times have people been disappointed by hype?? Way too many times.

I didn't mean the contrary. Sorry if my point wasn't well explain.

Still looks silly. I just don't think Ridley with his current design won't work in Smash. If fans want Ridley in Smash then they need to ask Retro/ Nintendo to make a new version of Ridley that can eventually be playable in Smash. It'd be too much of a disservice to the source material to make Ridley playable at this point in time.

This, again, is a matter of opinion. Like many already suggested, we should just agree to disagree and move on to a more productive subject, shouldn't we?

 

[Neo Zero]

In regards to Ridley, I'm just hoping w/e new Metroid game happens, they make a Smash Friendly Ridley model in that game. I'll take compromises if it gets him in lol.

 

[ChikoLad]

TBH there is all this talk about new characters for the broadcast, and I'm excited to see who they are, but you know what?

I honestly want to see more modes and features too.

 

[Bananija]

TBH there is all this talk about new characters for the broadcast, and I'm excited to see who they are, but you know what?

I honestly want to see more modes and features too.

I'm pretty sure you aren't the only one. The single player on the Wii U version is particulary lacking and the fact that Sakurai mention the possiblity is just too exciting.