Survey Results and Stage and Character Analysis

[Overswarm]

Well I don't want to influence it's development on a hunch.

It would just be

"Remove top platform, lower ceiling, increase horizontal blast zone distance"

 

[Plum]

I'm going to be experimenting with:

- Castle Siege
- Yoshi's Story
- Battlefield
- Fountain of Dreams
- Yoshi's Island: Brawl
- Smashville
- Final Destination
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Dreamland 64

Personally. I like it enough to want to run it.

I don't really like PS1, and I would probably just go for the easy swap of PS2.
I don't know how many share my view, but part of me always cringes when PS1 gets picked. Half of the transformations do little more than force the match into a standstill. It kills the momentum of the match for both players and spectators, and I've always felt like its inclusion in Melee as a CP was a lack of better options; the Melee ruleset as it stands just tosses away any hazardous stage regardless of how much they impact gameplay which is upsetting, but neither here nor there. We have better options though.

I support Castle Siege though. The transformation screen minimally impacts gameplay, and without the second transformation I think its actually a very good stage with diverse gameplay. I think its healthy and should be embraced, but whether or not it will is another question.
I think it has less problems than Metal Cavern (though as a Sheik player I love Metal Cavern... that's just character bias speaking though). I do think Metal Cavern makes for a good counterpick however, but if I had to pick between Metal Cavern and Castle Siege being a starter stage for a 9 stage list, I would go Castle Siege.

 

[Juushichi]

I've never really had a problem with PS1 and honestly enjoy it as a general stage in both games I take seriously (this and Brawl, where it could also be/was also a starter). I am aware that certain transformations (Rock/Fire) slow the game down and force people to reevaluate/change options, but I don't believe that this is a bad thing. How it interacts with the other stages in Melee was awkward, but this isn't Melee and this isn't Brawl.

Personally, I would not switch PS2 and PS1 because we already have Smashville.

Jury is still out on MC for me. I don't like it much, but that's probably a reason to actually include it over PS1 when I think objectively.


- Castle Siege
- Yoshi's Story
- Battlefield
- Fountain of Dreams
- Metal Cavern
- Smashville
- Final Destination
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Dreamland 64

 

[Overswarm]

PS1 and MC aren't really comparable stages; if you're "choosing between them" then something is up with the starter list.

 

[Juushichi]

Fixed. 10 fixes

 

[Plum]

Hmm, I think I would use Yoshi's Island: Brawl over Metal Cavern.
They seem pretty comparable. Small stage size with a large platform overhead with varying distance from the ground. In Metal Cavern the distance from the ground varies because the main stage has the slopes, in Yoshi's Island it varies because the platform tilts.
Yoshi's has the addition of a true wall and the random ghost platforms. Metal Cavern is static, with a semi-walls (big enough to reliably wall jump, stage spike, etc.), but overall I think it lends itself to polarizing matchups in a way that Yoshi's Island doesn't, and I think it largely boils down to the slopes in Metal Cavern. Yoshi's Island can present similar situations where some characters really benefit from the uneven terrain, or the distance to the platform above being greater or smaller than normal, but it doesn't remain static. Similar to Fountain of Dreams in that respect, where gameplay can change based on the platform position - though Yoshi's changes in different ways because the platform is ever present.

 

[Overswarm]

Yoshi's and MCavern aren't anywhere near comparable. o_O

 

[humble]

Overswarm, what do you think of Skyloft?

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, what do you think of Skyloft?

I like it. I don't know how I feel about the "floor" aspect of the gazebo thing no the left; I've been able to crouch in a very specific spot and d-tilt through the stage, not sure if it is intentional.

All in all it is a unique stage that is kind of on its own in that regard. It's probably one of the best Fox counterpicks in the game at this point, given that he can actually recover on top of the platform on the right and get away from combos in the same manner... while still killing early due to a lower ceiling.

 

[Perfecthell4]

Overswarm, I noticed in your talk of using Castle Siege as a starter, you mentioned the second stage and walk-offs. Project: M v2.5b skips the second transition, and as such the walk-offs are not a factor, and this will better fit your logic for using it in a starter list.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, I noticed in your talk of using Castle Siege as a starter, you mentioned the second stage and walk-offs. Project: M v2.5b skips the second transition, and as such the walk-offs are not a factor, and this will better fit your logic for using it in a starter list.

The transformation process itself is a walk-off; it is what I was referring to.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The transition walk-off has a lot of really screwy components to it, from inconsistent loading time even with the SD card to really screwing with recoveries and general interaction. Even with knowing when it will occur (Which, again due to loading times will vary quite a bit), its effect is akin to Randall suddenly appearing over the entirety of YS at once and staying there before falling down and taking anyone standing on his area at the time with him. If the transition phase could somehow be addressed in this regard I can't think of any particular problems with the stage. Well, barring specific matchups, but that's what stage bans and strikes are for.

 

[Overswarm]

I've played Brawl since release and I can safely say anyone who complains about the transition needs to suck it up and stop being a baby. It's incredibly simple to understand and deal with, and you are given ample warning both before it starts and before it ends.

 

[Perfecthell4]

I've played Brawl since release and I can safely say anyone who complains about the transition needs to suck it up and stop being a baby. It's incredibly simple to understand and deal with, and you are given ample warning both before it starts and before it ends.

This is true to some degree, it is certainly a matter of familiarity. However I have seen tournament matches in which one player who otherwise could not have recovered makes it out alive solely because the transition kicked in and not due to their own skill level. This is a factor of randomness overriding skill, something competitive play strives to avoid.

 

[Overswarm]

This is true to some degree, it is certainly a matter of familiarity. However I have seen tournament matches in which one player who otherwise could not have recovered makes it out alive solely because the transition kicked in and not due to their own skill level. This is a factor of randomness overriding skill, something competitive play strives to avoid.

Let's ban Smashville!


Oh wait, we aren't pedants. Nevermind, carry on!

 

[Raziek]

There's nothing wrong with Castle Siege. Both players should be paying attention for a timer.

Don't fish super hard for a gimp if the transition is coming. Alternatively, feel free to go balls-out for a kill if you know the transition is coming and will save you when you couldn't have recovered otherwise.

 

[Oracle]

Let's ban Smashville!

I second the motion; I lost a doubles match because the balloon stalled bowser's down b enough to hit me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnwgkGli2C4&t=3m39s

 

[Oro?!]

You lost because Kirk is godlike! #advancedballoonmetagame

 

[Perfecthell4]

Well with Smashville both palyers can easily see the platforms movements, you both know when it is coming and the edgeguarding player can use that knowledge to punish your upB landing lag on the platform (assuming you were forced to resort to that). With Castle Siege, this isn't the case. The transition is a much more difficult thing to watch for. Not that it can't be done, but it's clear that Smashville is a different case.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

so both players can't see the stage transforming? good to know. I was under the impression we were looking at the same screen

 

[metroid1117]

OMG PIKACHU GOT 2ND AT A TOURNAMENT. Too bad Captain L used Jigglypuff as well, so the points will be split instead of all going to Pikachu though. At least Pikachu will have points now.

 

[Raziek]

Well with Smashville both palyers can easily see the platforms movements, you both know when it is coming and the edgeguarding player can use that knowledge to punish your upB landing lag on the platform (assuming you were forced to resort to that). With Castle Siege, this isn't the case. The transition is a much more difficult thing to watch for. Not that it can't be done, but it's clear that Smashville is a different case.

The stage transitions every 40 seconds +/- minor amounts based on how long your wii spends loading the transition.

Easily timed.

 

[The_NZA]

How is the current consensus on the legality of sse jungle? I see it banned most of hte time because of its size. Is this because people can run to an end and camp projectile you?

 

[Overswarm]

How is the current consensus on the legality of sse jungle? I see it banned most of hte time because of its size. Is this because people can run to an end and camp projectile you?

Fear.

You can't effectively camp on SSE Jungle. You can run to the other side of the map, but the other person can just chase you. In order to get away from your opponent you have to cross them. It's lateral camping, not circular; you can camp on SSE Jungle just as well as you can on Final Destination. Actually slightly worse due to you getting closer to the blast zones on the sides, resulting in a quicker death.

But more or less, people are afraid of what COULD happen rather than what DOES happen. I plan on abusing any possible abuses on this stage and others at my house tournament and encouraging others to do the same, hopefully getting video of it for video evidence one way or another.

 

[The_NZA]

Cool. Cause I enjoy the stage. I think it should be legal. Im sure ill change my opinion though once i see the time of spamming that is possible.

 

[The_NZA]

Cool. Cause I enjoy the stage. I think it should be legal. Im sure ill change my opinion though once i see the time of spamming that is possible.

 

[Overswarm]

Cool. Cause I enjoy the stage. I think it should be legal. Im sure ill change my opinion though once i see the time of spamming that is possible.

As would I, but currently the only thing that matters is speed differential. Sonic vs. random slow person with telegraphed aerials = Sonic can time them out, but he can do so about as easily on FD. There are a few exceptions, most notably Jigglypuff. She can't chase vertically very quickly so Sonic can leap and over B, jump out of it, divekick, and be on the other side of the stage pretty quickly. If Jiggs tries to catch it, he can pivot a down+b in either direction to give him more aerial speed. I personally wouldn't pick one matchup as a "ban this stage" though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

How is the current consensus on the legality of sse jungle? I see it banned most of hte time because of its size. Is this because people can run to an end and camp projectile you?

SSE is very legal for the time being. So feel free to abuse the **** out of the stage until it's shown to be obnoxious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCwJ5dwNyU0#t=3m25s

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I do well on SSE:J and my friends john about it constantly. Of course, they john about any stage they lose consistently on. Like, if we randomly pick stages that are bad for the character they're playing, they insist on removing it from random if they lose on it consistently enough.

I've lost skyloft, skyworld, sse:j, and rumble falls to these kinds of shenanigans. That's just random though. We usually play random stages, but when we do mini tourneys, pretty much everything ends up being legal. They hate "getting randomly screwed" but they're not opposed to stage diversity and smart counterpicking.

 

[GaretHax]

SSE is very legal for the time being. So feel free to abuse the **** out of the stage until it's shown to be obnoxious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCwJ5dwNyU0#t=3m25s

Was that a bring your own tent tournament, or were they complimentary?

 

[The_NZA]

That was a very painful video to watch...makes you appreciate mango (and kinda hate m2k...i guess he's playing to win and doesn't want another Apex, LOL). Also, someone want to give me a rundown on Salem? I first heard of him at apex 2013 and didn't realize he switched over to PM. I wonder how he has time to practice (especially a new character) and how well he's picking up the new technical game (or was he a melee player)?

 

[Jandlebars]

That was a very painful video to watch...makes you appreciate mango (and kinda hate m2k...i guess he's playing to win and doesn't want another Apex, LOL). Also, someone want to give me a rundown on Salem? I first heard of him at apex 2013 and didn't realize he switched over to PM. I wonder how he has time to practice (especially a new character) and how well he's picking up the new technical game (or was he a melee player)?

Salem came completely out of the blue, from what I've heard about him. Don't think he ever played Melee, either (could be wrong about that, though).

 

[JOE!]

I liked the part where Falco camped but then still destroyed up close.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Salem came out of the blue like, well over a year ago. Like, if you said "he came out of the blue" at last year's apex, I'd understand. He was pretty much only known in his own region, cuz he never traveled. But this year, everyone knew about Salem, and everyone knew he was a crazy good ZSS. It's just that nobody expected him to win Apex.

 

[Jandlebars]

Salem came out of the blue like, well over a year ago. Like, if you said "he came out of the blue" at last year's apex, I'd understand. He was pretty much only known in his own region, cuz he never traveled. But this year, everyone knew about Salem, and everyone knew he was a crazy good ZSS. It's just that nobody expected him to win Apex.

It does seem rather unbelievable that he could've become that good if he'd just been playing a bit before Apex. Still, how did he manage to become so damn good if he was just playing in his region before-hand? There must've been some damn fierce competition where he played or something.

 

[Juushichi]

Salem had been playing on wifi forever, though.

 

[Jandlebars]

Salem had been playing on wifi forever, though.

Interesting. That definitely would give him a greater amount of experience despite not leaving his home turf.
Well, assuming he had a solid connection. We all know how insufferable Brawl's online can be. >__>'

 

[Juushichi]

Most of the top players played wifi for a long time, though.

You make due with what you can.

 

[Fortress]

I bet you just went and posted on some random PM thread just to prove me wrong.

You bet your ass I did.

 

[Nazo]

Lol.