Support for Bowser in tourneys

[S_B]

I've created a post here pointing out the hypocrisy in banning walled/walk-off stages to prevent chaingrabbing to death but not protecting characters like Bowser who are vulnerable to standing infinites:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173861

IMHO, if they're going to protect Snake from Dedede hammering him against a wall or off a walk-off stage, they should protect all 7 of the infinite-vulnerable characters from the same thing.

I'm sick of being told "Just avoid being grabbed!! LOLOL!" and I'm sure other Bowser mains are as well.

Hopefully, no one will need to do anything, but a post of support in the aforementioned thread will be ideal if tournament organizers refuse to change the ruleset and continue catering to people who main a character who D3/Marth can chain but not infinite.

 

[popsofctown]

Wow, i haven't heard the wall argument before. That's really powerful. A wall infinite is waaaaaay easier to avoid then getting grabbed at all during the match.

 

[KevinM]

Thats not going to happen, they won't specify you can only grab a character a certain amount of times. Welcome to competitive play, where you find every little thing thats gay, hope you enjoy your stay.

 

[S_B]

Thats not going to happen, they won't specify you can only grab a character a certain amount of times. Welcome to competitive play, where you find every little thing thats gay, hope you enjoy your stay.

Then how did they ban Wobbling in Melee without making specifications exactly like those you mentioned?

Right now, the rules are being bent for a number of the characters (including Snake) to avoid chaingrab death from D3.

They HAVE to pick one: it's either all of the characters or none of the characters. There can be no middle ground in this without blatantly discriminating against certain characters and the players who main them.

 

[KevinM]

Wobbling was still in every Major tourney I attended as well as pound 3 which unfortunately I had to miss. Learn your facts.

 

[Sliq]

Don't go Bowser vs. Dedede. That's like your ONLY option.

 

[S_B]

Wobbling was still in every Major tourney I attended as well as pound 3 which unfortunately I had to miss. Learn your facts.

That's great, but what's happening right now is the equivalent of banning the ICs' from wobbling some characters but not others.

Infinites are banned on SOME characters, but not all of them. It's hypocritical and if you read the thread, the majority of the posters agree.

 

[DiasFlac]

If what you said is true and their protecting one character from something like infinities and not the rest of the cast then I agree its unfair. Its like they want the future tourneys to be just

Snake vs Snake.

and they have the nerve to complain about how brawl is not balanced when their protecting one character from something that is unfair to other characters as well.

If what you say is true I mean.

A link to that thread would be great so I can learn more about this and give my support.

 

[S_B]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173861

And yeah, the primary reason these stages are banned is to prevent wall and walk-off infinites.

These characters aren't vulnerable to D3's chaingrab at all:

Fox
Jiggly Puff
Pikachu
Olimar
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik
Kirby
Squirtle
Meta Knight
Falco
ZSS

...And thus would make ideal counters to D3's on walk-off and wall stages.

If people are going to tell Bowser, DK, etc. players to "change your main" in regards to infinites, there's absolutely no reason Snake players shouldn't be told the EXACT same thing.

 

[Sliq]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173861

And yeah, the primary reason these stages are banned is to prevent wall and walk-off infinites.

These characters aren't vulnerable to D3's chaingrab at all:

Fox
Jiggly Puff
Pikachu
Olimar
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Sheik
Kirby
Squirtle
Meta Knight
Falco
ZSS

...And thus would make ideal counters to D3's on walk-off and wall stages.

If people are going to tell Bowser, DK, etc. players to "change your main" in regards to infinites, there's absolutely no reason Snake players shouldn't be told the EXACT same thing.

It isn't necassarily about changing your main so much as having a back up character for a completely one sided matchup.

 

[S_B]

It isn't necassarily about changing your main so much as having a back up character for a completely one sided matchup.

I'm fine with that, but then Snake players should also need a backup when going up against a Dedede on Eldin Bridge, except that's usually not a decision they have to make.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

As much as I hate the allowance of infinites, even without the infinite it's terrible matchup for bowser and you shouldn't be picking him so, well, yeah, get used to it.

 

[B0NK]

Did people complain about how easy it was for a Shiek to chaingrab Bowser easily in Melee? No. Why, because it was part of the game. "Just avoid getting grabbed" is great advice. Space accordingly, play defensive, predict your opponents grab attempts and punish, etc. Whatever it may take. I honestly don't know why people complain about chaingrabs at all. A skilled player knows how to work around it and if there isn't a way, pick another character. Main loyalty is ********, you should have a secondary anyway to help against tough fights. I main Ice Climbers, if my opponent is going to use Ice Climbers I lose my ability to use grab combos, my desyching will not be as effective, and the opponent knows the Ice Climbers just as well as I do. So what do I do? I pick my secondary Bowser so I can space accordingly. Just because one character is your main doesn't mean you have to only use your main. If you are at a disadvantage, either learn how to cover those disadvantages or pick another character.

 

[S_B]

Did people complain about how easy it was for a Shiek to chaingrab Bowser easily in Melee? No. Why, because it was part of the game. "Just avoid getting grabbed" is great advice. Space accordingly, play defensive, predict your opponents grab attempts and punish, etc. Whatever it may take. I honestly don't know why people complain about chaingrabs at all. A skilled player knows how to work around it and if there isn't a way, pick another character. Main loyalty is ********, you should have a secondary anyway to help against tough fights. I main Ice Climbers, if my opponent is going to use Ice Climbers I lose my ability to use grab combos, my desyching will not be as effective, and the opponent knows the Ice Climbers just as well as I do. So what do I do? I pick my secondary Bowser so I can space accordingly. Just because one character is your main doesn't mean you have to only use your main. If you are at a disadvantage, either learn how to cover those disadvantages or pick another character.

Did you even READ the thread?

This is about the fact that people HAVE complained about infinites that only work on certain stages and those stages have been banned to appease them.

These stages have been banned to protect part of the roster from wall infinites and CG to KO wall infinites.

In other words, if Snake and Diddy can be destroyed by certain stages against a D3 player, the stage is banned, but if it can happen to a Bowser or DK player on ANY stage, no action is taken because Bowser and DK aren't as popular, and with the rules the way they are, they sure aren't going to be growing in popularity.

If they unbanned all stages and let D3 players wall infinite Snakes and Diddys, I'm quite certain you'd see their popularity plummet as well.

 

[Buuman]

Smash don't worry about it. Bonk obviously is oblivious.

 

[B0NK]

Did you even READ the thread?

This is about the fact that people HAVE complained about infinites that only work on certain stages and those stages have been banned to appease them.

These stages have been banned to protect part of the roster from wall infinites and CG to KO wall infinites.

In other words, if Snake and Diddy can be destroyed by certain stages against a D3 player, the stage is banned, but if it can happen to a Bowser or DK player on ANY stage, no action is taken because Bowser and DK aren't as popular, and with the rules the way they are, they sure aren't going to be growing in popularity.

If they unbanned all stages and let D3 players wall infinite Snakes and Diddys, I'm quite certain you'd see their popularity plummet as well.

My bad. I misread the thread. But I still don't agree that any technique should be ban because:

1. It's not as easy to regulate as turning off a stage.
2. Just because the character can infinite your main, you still have the option to use a another character.
3. You can learn to work around these techniques making you a better player in the process.

I much rather have a stage be banned then limiting what a character can do. Bowser has one of the best options against these grabbers, over-b. Over-b makes it so you can punish a player for trying to shield grab you. It work in Melee and it still works in this game. And if you get grabbed because of a laggy attack that didn't connect or because you attacked there shield without spacing then I applause the D3 or Marth that forced you into this mistake or is taking full advantage for your mistake. The only infinites that should be banned are infinites that apply to every character that can be done with little to no skill.

 

[gantrain05]

lol this is stupid this is like if you were playing melee against ken's marth and the rules were ken can do whatever the hell he wants, but you can't do any infinites, its protecting the best character in the game against one of his weaknesses but allowing the others to suffer the IC's? wtf.

 

[DiasFlac]

Did people complain about how easy it was for a Shiek to chaingrab Bowser easily in Melee? No. Why, because it was part of the game. "Just avoid getting grabbed" is great advice. Space accordingly, play defensive, predict your opponents grab attempts and punish, etc. Whatever it may take. I honestly don't know why people complain about chaingrabs at all. A skilled player knows how to work around it and if there isn't a way, pick another character. Main loyalty is ********, you should have a secondary anyway to help against tough fights. I main Ice Climbers, if my opponent is going to use Ice Climbers I lose my ability to use grab combos, my desyching will not be as effective, and the opponent knows the Ice Climbers just as well as I do. So what do I do? I pick my secondary Bowser so I can space accordingly. Just because one character is your main doesn't mean you have to only use your main. If you are at a disadvantage, either learn how to cover those disadvantages or pick another character.

Let me get this right. You dodge a good IC ditto by picking Bowser because you think his spacing is better then IC? who can CG Bowser easy, force him to approach with their projectiles and ruin his Side B and grabbing game because of what that second IC does whenever one of them gets grabbed. (did I mention CG to spike gimp?)

*is lost* Well w/e floats your boat.

on topic. Dodging a grab isn't easy no matter how skilled you are. Your GOING to get grabbed. I'm tired of hearing. "skilled players don't get grabbed they find ways around it" sure you can find away around it but your can't for long. That other player is GOING to grab you soon enough.

All of the characters that can CG have great projectile game vs Bowser so your be forced to approach which kinda ruins your spacing.

Not complaining about that kinda tactic just saying the whole fact of saying a skilled players don't get grabbed is silly. Got to think of why they can get grabbed and what options the other player has at making him make a mistake.

 

[S_B]

My bad. I misread the thread. But I still don't agree that any technique should be ban because:

No worries. I'm not one of the types to tear people apart for misunderstandings (don't expect the same courtesy from the remainder of the site, though, as I'm learning the hard way).

1. It's not as easy to regulate as turning off a stage.

This is true and this is ultimately the reason why it won't be changed in most tourneys, although most of these matches are videotaped for posterity anyway, so they could be reviewed on tape to confirm.

2. Just because the character can infinite your main, you still have the option to use a another character.

True, but this is the same logic which many people who are at risk of being infinited by a D3 against a wall with their main didn't have to deal with. THAT was where it became hypocritical.

However, I've learned that there ARE legitimate reasons for the banning of these stages beyond infinite grabs, including laser infinites and jab infinites (both by Falco) in which characters are pinned against a wall in their fallen state or lasered off the stage, known as "laser lock". Before I made this argument, I was unaware of these tactics being a reality.

3. You can learn to work around these techniques making you a better player in the process.

Again, true, but there was no reason I knew why Snake, Diddy, etc. mains shouldn't have to do the same against a D3 player on Shadow Moses, for example.

The only infinites that should be banned are infinites that apply to every character that can be done with little to no skill.

I expect this whole issue will come up again when the ICs' infinite REALLY comes into its own. I've been hearing anecdotes on this site from players who have been beaten with the IC infinite grab. I think it's only a matter of time before a good enough player shows up and makes a compelling demonstration regarding why grabs should be limited to 3-5 as a standard practice.

Maybe that will be universal and maybe it'll be ICs only. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[B0NK]

Let me get this right. You dodge a good IC ditto by picking Bowser because you think his spacing is better then IC? who can CG Bowser easy, force him to approach with their projectiles and ruin his Side B and grabbing game because of what that second IC does whenever one of them gets grabbed. (did I mention CG to spike gimp?)

*is lost* Well w/e floats your boat.

on topic. Dodging a grab isn't easy no matter how skilled you are. Your GOING to get grabbed. I'm tired of hearing. "skilled players don't get grabbed they find ways around it" sure you can find away around it but your can't for long. That other player is GOING to grab you soon enough.

All of the characters that can CG have great projectile game vs Bowser so your be forced to approach which kinda ruins your spacing.

Not complaining about that kinda tactic just saying the whole fact of saying a skilled players don't get grabbed is silly. Got to think of why they can get grabbed and what options the other player has at making him make a mistake.

A well timed fire breath messes up an Ice Climbers desynchs (and forces them into the air), his attacks do a pretty good job of separating the ice climbers and forcing them in the air (especially up-b), there one of the easier characters to edgeguard with Bowser (The fire breath can really mess up the ice climbers tether), and people forcing you to approach is nothing new with Bowser. Sure I would have a lot of trouble on final destination but any stage with platforms makes the approach easier. Sure he can be chaingrab pretty easily but the grab>spike is one of the things that isn't as easy to do on Bowser if the Ice Climber is not used to the weight of Bowser. I'm aware of the disadvantage, I just like a challenge and was trying to make point. My secondary is Bowser so I used him as my example, I guess it wasn't the best choice. And I do agree that players of any skill level will eventually get grabbed but the more skilled you are the better you are at avoiding grabs.

Edit: @ Smash _ B:

You make very good points. I personally don't believe all grabs should be limited, maybe that's because I use Ice Climbers. This is obviously a very debatable issue with good arguments from both sides. I don't make the decision to ban so if they are limited or banned I will just have to deal with it anyway. And vice-versa, if they aren't banned or limited than you would have to deal with that too.

 

[S_B]

Honestly, I don't think a 5 grab limit on the ICs' infinite is going to be terribly crippling to the technique, since the tech typically ends with an Upsmash.

After 5 throws (and some hits in the interim), the Upsmash will likely be a kill, especially if there's no stale move negation because you've saved it for the chaingrab.

It'd make the tactic less downright lethal, but grabbing a foe over 50% should still mean death for that foe.

Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiW90quHDqg&feature=related

This is 13 throws, but Olimar starts at 0%. Were he at 60-70% to start with, he'd have no chance anyway, as long as the Upsmash lands.

 

[B0NK]

True, five is sometimes more than enough. But it is still really hard to enforce. I'll quote Hylian since he said it way better than I would:

You say I can't grab 3 times in a row. So I can still grab, throw 3 times, hit them with an attack, and then grab again? If that is banned then how many attacks am I allowed to do before I can grab again? Can I throw with popo, then footstool them with nana and grab as they get up off the ground? What if I footstool into Ice block into grab? There are so many things I can do with climbers, that you would basically have to ban every single one of my combos. Why not just ban IC's alltogether? What limits me from doing these things? I can infinite someone while only grabbing them once between like 3 hits. Thats not at all grabs in a row. If you ban this, you are going to have to tell me EXACTLY what I can't do, or I will do it. I have MANY death combos. I don't use them, because I don't need to. They are still there.

In the case of the Ice Climbers, it's hard to enforce. But this is just Ice Climbers, a D3 and Marth can be much easier to enforce to protect some characters from the infinites. But just because it only applies to a few characters doesn't mean the technique is broken. I do agree on this though, if you protect one character you must protect them all. I just don't agree on banning any techniques. (Unless its like the Ice Climbers Freeze Glitch in Melee, that was obviously broken but I don't see anything like this in Brawl yet).

 

[KevinM]

ITT: Two non-competitve people baww about chain grabs and infinites, while completely ignoring the possibility of a secondary as Sliq has already mentioned.

 

[S_B]

ITT: Two non-competitve people baww about chain grabs and infinites, while completely ignoring the possibility of a secondary as Sliq has already mentioned.

No more from the peanut gallery, thanks.

 

[Veggi]

I understand picking a secondary would make sense. However it would only make sense to someone who would be willing to pick up a secondary. If someone only wants to use Bowser, that should be acceptable. None of my mains can work well against Dedede and I'm not picking up Falco so I can beat him. Why? Because I don't like Falco. Plain and simple there should be no "easy" way to win. Obviously some characters are better against certain characters, but infinite chain grabs are a joke. If Snake players can't survive on Eldin Bridge, maybe they should pick up G&W.

 

[S_B]

I understand picking a secondary would make sense. However it would only make sense to someone who would be willing to pick up a secondary. If someone only wants to use Bowser, that should be acceptable. None of my mains can work well against Dedede and I'm not picking up Falco so I can beat him. Why? Because I don't like Falco. Plain and simple there should be no "easy" way to win. Obviously some characters are better against certain characters, but infinite chain grabs are a joke. If Snake players can't survive on Eldin Bridge, maybe they should pick up G&W.

The truth of it is, picking a 2nd main defeats the purpose of having a "main" at all.

I mean, why spend months perfecting your abilities with a character when you'll easily be forced to pick a different character because of fear of someone picking D3 or Marth?

Maining a character which has a huge known weakness isn't a good investment of time.

The only thing that sucks worse is spending 6 months mastering a character and THEN having someone discover a huge weakness they have.

I agree with Sliq that being good with multiple characters is a good plan of action, but logically speaking, the cursed 7 aren't worth investing your time into mastering when they can so easily be counterpicked and made inept.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Id agree to limiting infinite grabs and cheap things that are like freewins for some characters if you guys would agree to limit koopaciding to being within a certain %(like 40% or something) of each other.

 

[NickRiddle]

The truth of it is, picking a 2nd main defeats the purpose of having a "main" at all.

I mean, why spend months perfecting your abilities with a character when you'll easily be forced to pick a different character because of fear of someone picking D3 or Marth?

Maining a character which has a huge known weakness isn't a good investment of time.

The only thing that sucks worse is spending 6 months mastering a character and THEN having someone discover a huge weakness they have.

I agree with Sliq that being good with multiple characters is a good plan of action, but logically speaking, the cursed 7 aren't worth investing your time into mastering when they can so easily be counterpicked and made inept.

Does that mean that nobody should play Lucas/Ness because of Marth too?...Oh, how about every character in the game due to ICs? I guess we're all going to be playing them since they cannot CG two characters at once...Right? IC dittos ftw!

If your opponent plays D3, you should not use one of those 7 against them...It sucks, but it's the truth...If you want to win anyways. In Melee, how many Bowsers/Links/DKs only played those characters?...Same thing will apply to Brawl. Those who want to win will have a good second to back their main's weaknesses.

 

[Ayaz18]

Yeah I know it's pretty dumb but the day they ban infinites is the day they ban IC chaingrab

 

[S_B]

Does that mean that nobody should play Lucas/Ness because of Marth too?

Considering that someone can counterpick Marth and you've basically auto-lost the match, yes, you probably shouldn't bother maining them in tournaments where others can counterpick you.

...Oh, how about every character in the game due to ICs? I guess we're all going to be playing them since they cannot CG two characters at once...Right? IC dittos ftw!

Many players (myself included) believe that as soon as an IC player truly masters their CG and starts winning tournaments as a result, it'll probably get banned. As of now, no IC player has done this...yet.

 

[FaceFaceMcFace]

Having mained Bowser in Melee, I'm already used to highly disadvantageous matchups like this.

Pick up a secondary or master your defensive game. Preferably both.

Having a secondary shouldn't be looked down upon. Honestly, no matter how good or bad your character is you should have at LEAST one solid secondary if not two or three.

If for no other reason, learning to play other characters well increases your understanding of the game, and thusly improves your skill with your main to boot.

 

[KevinM]

If you don't want to pick up another character because you want to have a main "loyalty" go ahead, I'm just going to chain grab the **** out of you and call you a scrub. Welcome to competition get the **** over it.