Super Smash Flash 2

[Vex Kasrani]

livestream link

www.livestream.com/vexkasrani

 

[Mew2King]

K after playing mega man a while he has severe up-close problems. He can't get out of Uair strings from falcon/sora/many-other-chars cuz there isn't enough DI. He's not that bad imo but there are some chars (ichigo/sora, maybe DK? idk only played vs DK a few times) that are way better mostly cuz of Uair strings that is where half the damage comes from. Once you're in mega mans face, he gets ****ed up badly. Basically he needs to not be so horrible up-close and he'll be viable to win tourneys (if there were tourneys for this game). Purple gravity well is almost useless vs chars with big swords, and 100% useless vs Sora since Fire and Lightning special attacks just **** him as well as the sword.

Uair strings are a huge problem in this game. There is no way to DI them. Tons of chars can just Uair you to death and there's no way to DI it or make it harder for them.

HUGE Thing - running speed. He can't get back once you're in his face. He basically has to get 0-deathed when ur in his face since his running speed and rolling speed are both so slow. If these 2 things were upgraded that would be great.

Any of the things stated above are as in-depth as I can go based on my experience so far (almost all my play time is playing mega man vs vex's various chars).

 

[[TSON]]

****, missed the stream, hella upset. you should've PM'd me or something i woulda hyped it up.
@ vex - check your PM's on MG.

@ m2k - thanks for playing & etc, & taking the time out to post what you thought man. gotta few questions/comments based off of your posts.

1. I'm fairly sure our DI actually EXCEEDS Melee, at ±18 degrees, what do you propose we do in terms of uair strings? is the angle just too low where it's too difficult to DI left and escape? I know our SDI is extremely extremely low right now, we can turn that up easily - but do you think it's the trajectorial DI that's bothering you?

2. MM's uair is actually very useful, I've heard, since Beat (upB) can be cancelled into any aerial on like frame 3 which makes it significantly better than a SH. You can spam out uairs until you hit basically even with a SH though and it usually disrupts the **** out of the foe's movement. The first projectile before it splits has high damage and KB and a deceptively large hitbox. So check that out, and let me know if your opinion changes at all, okay? This also makes bair a hell of a lot more useful, too.

3. Our rolls are JANK AS HELL right now. Working on it.

4. We actually have a build in testing where MM's upB isn't like Pit's anymore. Our next release should have it.

5. Idk about your MM B power comments. Crash bomb (red power) is great for stringing along combos since it has ****tons of hitstun and hitlag. It's like a moving version of C4 with more hitlag, basically. Black Hole Bomb (that's the gravity well - purple) is great if you space well and especially if you throw in another power while they're stuck in there because it's hella annoying to get out of. Rolling cutter (white) is great for obvious reasons. At lower percentages it has really low KB and high damage, and at higher percentages, it has really high KB and lower damage. Super Arm (yellow) is good if you space right and SH it because the block has a weird trajectory - but it's huge, high damage, and powerful. And finally Mega Buster (blue), although it's simple and has low KB, can really **** up someone who's trying to run in on you because you can shoot the uncharged ones so rapidly. The fully charged one is pretty nice too, but it takes a while to charge.

6. Yeah we're gonna rip Ichigo a new one soon, I think. His aerials are dumb.

7. As far as those "other things" you guys noticed:
- 3 frame shield I can push for a change to 1 frame. No problem.
- DI, see above, at my first point.
- Tails was ******** two demos ago. Now you need hella tech skill to play him right. (Yes, that's a challenge c:< )
- Where in the stream does that BHB glitch happen?
- One-tap-down-to-get-off-platforms would mess with dtilts and dsmashes, so that might not be the best idea.
- What's up with CF's nair? Hitbox too big or angle too good, too much hitstun?

& lastly, what do you think we should do about MM's up close problems personally?






also you guys use youtube next time so i can feature it on our channel and gloat >:C

 

[[TSON]]

& looool, i see you guys found that ******** sora frame 1 upB glitch

ugh

 

[dettadeus]

You guys get legit players trying out your game.

No fair.

Next time some big players try it out, they should try Ness. He's like a new Falco.

 

[Mew2King]

****, missed the stream, hella upset. you should've PM'd me or something i woulda hyped it up.
@ vex - check your PM's on MG.

@ m2k - thanks for playing & etc, & taking the time out to post what you thought man. gotta few questions/comments based off of your posts.

1. I'm fairly sure our DI actually EXCEEDS Melee, at ±18 degrees, what do you propose we do in terms of uair strings? is the angle just too low where it's too difficult to DI left and escape? I know our SDI is extremely extremely low right now, we can turn that up easily - but do you think it's the trajectorial DI that's bothering you?

not sure, all i know is Uair strings are super, super broken in this game, with many characters

2. MM's uair is actually very useful, I've heard, since Beat (upB) can be cancelled into any aerial on like frame 3 which makes it significantly better than a SH. You can spam out uairs until you hit basically even with a SH though and it usually disrupts the **** out of the foe's movement. The first projectile before it splits has high damage and KB and a deceptively large hitbox. So check that out, and let me know if your opinion changes at all, okay? This also makes bair a hell of a lot more useful, too.

no, it's horrible. Uair takes way too long to come out (and too high over his head) to be useful. I saw the link you gave me, and he only did 4% with 2 Uairs, averaging 2 damage each. That's IT if hits. I understand it does well over 10 damage if the close ball hits, but dude, honestly it's just too slow to be good. In my experience, it's always better to do something else instead of Uair, such as even rolling backwards (which sucks because his roll IS HORRIBLE. IT's WAY too slow. WAY too slow).

When you consider how long it feels like it takes to jump with mega man, and how long the Uair takes to come out, I honestly feel that move is horrible. I'd actually give it a 1/10 or 2/10 rating at best. Almost every other character in the game has a better Uair. It's so bad in fact, that it's pretty much useless in ACTUAL battle vs a good opponent (please trust me on this I've played mega man vs Vex and his friend for at least 8 hours already). That move needs a serious upgrade because it's way too slow (or maybe make mega man just jump faster to fix it?

3. Our rolls are JANK AS HELL right now. Working on it.

I can't speak for most chars, but mega mans roll is jank for sure.

4. We actually have a build in testing where MM's upB isn't like Pit's anymore. Our next release should have it.

ok

5. Idk about your MM B power comments. Crash bomb (red power) is great for stringing along combos since it has ****tons of hitstun and hitlag. It's like a moving version of C4 with more hitlag, basically. Black Hole Bomb (that's the gravity well - purple) is great if you space well and especially if you throw in another power while they're stuck in there because it's hella annoying to get out of. Rolling cutter (white) is great for obvious reasons. At lower percentages it has really low KB and high damage, and at higher percentages, it has really high KB and lower damage. Super Arm (yellow) is good if you space right and SH it because the block has a weird trajectory - but it's huge, high damage, and powerful. And finally Mega Buster (blue), although it's simple and has low KB, can really **** up someone who's trying to run in on you because you can shoot the uncharged ones so rapidly. The fully charged one is pretty nice too, but it takes a while to charge.

I think a huge upgrade would be to somehow change the B button. It would be really cool if his other B moves were better.
-neutral B charged sucks. It's impossible to hit with. It takes too long to charge, and the startup before shooting it makes it completely useless.
-Rock sucks because you have to not use the saw or the gravity move. IT WOULD BE REALLY USEFUL IF I DIDNT HAVE TO "SWITCH" POWERS (it takes too long). If he just could do Gravity -> Rock or Gravity -> CrashBomb really fast, he would be MUCH cooler to use and I could make really cool vids with him.

I notice a cool combo is Gravity -> Crash Bomb, but because it takes to long to come out, it's barely worth it. I am not a huge fan of how I have to change powers, I wish i could just press certain buttons to make it come out. I totally understand if this is not possible, but please do consider a faster way to do this, because if I could do soemthing like gravity -> crash bomb or quickly throw Guts Mans rock over my head when they are in the air, it would make combat a LOT more interesting, and I could release youtube videos where mega man has some VERY nice gameplay using all his B moves. Don't nerf Gravity though, because without that, Mega Man is pretty much worthless imo. Instead, make switching to the other moves much faster. Again, as I said, I understand if you cannot figure out a way how, but it would be great for the game as me and vex release entertaining youtube vids using mega mans entire moveset (half his moves arent useful, such as 3 of his B moves, the neutral Blue, guts man rock, and crash bomb, and his Uair and down smash would be okay but they are just too slow. I originally thought a 17 damage down smash would be cool, but tbh, it's just worthless in battle entirely. Down tilt is too slow, but no biggie it's not that important it's just a meh move anyway. These changes would make him a much more interesting character if he could use his entire moveset better. Having to switch powers simply is not a good solution for combat. It was good in theory, but in battle it's just too slow and it's almost always better to stick to just 1 power and focus on fighting because of how long it takes (especially with how SLOW mega man walks and runs omg).

6. Yeah we're gonna rip Ichigo a new one soon, I think. His aerials are dumb.

ok

7. As far as those "other things" you guys noticed:
- 3 frame shield I can push for a change to 1 frame. No problem.
- DI, see above, at my first point.
- Tails was ******** two demos ago. Now you need hella tech skill to play him right. (Yes, that's a challenge c:< )
- Where in the stream does that BHB glitch happen?
- One-tap-down-to-get-off-platforms would mess with dtilts and dsmashes, so that might not be the best idea.
- What's up with CF's nair? Hitbox too big or angle too good, too much hitstun?

as far as platforms, perhaps make it so when you SHIELD on a platform, and press down, you just fall through. That would be the best fix


& lastly, what do you think we should do about MM's up close problems personally?

He can't get away fast enough. He stands no chance vs ichigo or sora. If I gravity bomb ichigo or sora, they just use Thunder or ANY Ichigo sword attack and it outranges all my attacks. His range to speed ratio is not good. Fixing mega mans rolling speed + walking/running speed however, would fix a lot of this problem. I don't know what frame his jumping speed is, but if that were fixed, maybe Uair would be useful? Basically his movement is just too slow, and some moves are useless.
-Rolling speed is HORRENDOUSLY BAD
-Dodge speed not great
-Walking speed sucks. This would be really good to fix, because after like 1 or 2 flame swords even at 0%, he can't do a big combo. Compare this to naruto (average character imo) he can do a SUPER long combo, and i just wish mega man had bigger combos. His movement speed is simply too slow to allow big combos which really is unfortunate.
-Running speed sucks. Another great fix would be both walking and running speed so he can ACTUALLY combo, and me and vex could release ENTERTAINING vids due to quick movement. Slow movement (and Uair/B-switching) are the things that hold megaman back a LOT, in both the tier department and the entertainment-to-play and entertainment-to-watch departments. Double his speed in all categories please (or something like that).
-Jumping speed is too slow, and on that subject, maybe make his normal jump slightly higher? And his jumping speed should be I'd say maybe 2 frames faster than it currently is. I mean think about it, in Mega man games, his jump is INSTANT. You want it to feel like normal mega man. Mega man should be the FASTEST jumper in the game if anything, but you don't have to go that far, just a small increase in his jumping speed (how long it takes to get off the ground is what I mean) would be good.
-Down smash is useless
-Uair is almost useless. Make it twice, maybe 3 times as fast, and it would be good. I'm not even joking, I'm actually being 100% serious.
-Changing B to make cool combos possible would be AWESOME. I find switching takes too long in actual battle, and even if it doesn't sometimes, it just makes the gameplay kinda bleh cuz it's slower paced. Gravity bomb -> some other B move would be great. neutral B, rock, and crash bomb are worthless because it's not worth switching, it just takes too long.
-When I double tap forwards, and dash attack once, by pressing A again, it continues dash attacking like 3-4 times in a row. Same thing with up tilt. Not a big deal, just letting you know about it. GREATLY increasing mega mans walking speed should be a very nice fix to a lot of his problem.
-Another issue with this game is the inability (at least with mega man, didn't test the other characters) to double jump instantly. Example: I have to wait until I am past the top of my jump with mega man in order for the game to allow me to double jump away. It's not a huge deal but it limits some combo ability sometimes with other moves. In the other smash games, I could jump in the air, and double jump as soon as frame 1 of in the air, but this game makes you wait until you are at the peak of your jump before it lets you do it again.
-Megaman needs better combos. Down throw to SH Fair to F tilt is usually the best combo I can do and then run away to get more gravity bombs or SH gravity bomb. Naruto for example has insane attacks. Fixing megamans B/downB to somehow allow quicker attacks w/out having to change powers (it is VERY BORING to change powers during battle and also pretty useless to do that) would be a GREAT change. Please consider this greatly. Also when I try to do up throw -> up tilt -> up smash, it often does 2 up tilts. It's kinda annoying x_x.
-What WOULD BE really cool is to be able to do like... Up throw -> up tilt or SH Nair (his jump takes too long to come out) -> Uair strings or something (Uair is way too slow), but because of his slow jumping speed, and cuz of how slow Uair takes to come out, these things never can happen =/ which means no cool combos which is very unfortunate and it's mostly due to slow movement/slow jump and a slow Uair. If Uair was like instant or something, that'd be way cooler. Best strat is to throw them off stage to gravity bomb over and over. It'd be tight if combos were into the game and his B moves have so much potential but having to SWITCH during battle is just.... it's just not as good as you would think. I WOULD say just be like "Up B for rock, down B for saw" and stuff like that.... but then of course, that wouldn't work, since he already has various B moves (beat and stuff). This is a tough problem but if this was figured out and solved successfully to what I am trying to tell you would be insanely fun, it would make gameplay 1000000000000 X better.





also you guys use youtube next time so i can feature it on our channel and gloat >:C

see the orange

Other things to note:
Sora is broken, especially Fire attack (me and vex think its wayyyyyyyyyyyy overpowered). His Lightning attack makes mega mans gravity move pointless, but the biggest thing is soras just insanely good, not ichigo good but still insane.
C.fAlcons Nair is too good (hits from SO FAR AWAY it seriously makes NO sense at all)
C.facons Dair is 100% worthless
DK's Dair is broken (17 damage + SUPERRRRRR huge hitbox it makes no sense)

I hope this helped. Please change everything mentioned, I spent a lot of time thinking about this in detail.

Also, please show this to the guys who edit the characters or are in charge of it (unless that's you then you can change it).

(to be more specific on his ideal jumping speed: Melee Sheik/Fox. Meaning megaman should be on the ground for 3 animation frames, and then be in the air on frame 4 (able to do any attack on this frame or even double jump like you can in other smash games). Try this out, I will test it in detail after you make this his jumping speed, and I will give detailed feedback afterwords.

 

[davdy22]

Maybe it could be changed so that just pressing a direction key chooses the ability, and pressing b again picks the neutral weapon switch option?

Also, Sora's neutralB is not OP. It's easy to dodge, and makes him helpless for the better part of a century. Jump over him and wait for the fire to time out, then punish with dair.

 

[Mew2King]

GOOD IdEA!! as long as it's much easier and MUCH FASTER that'd be alright. I honestly wish i didn't have to change though, and could simple just press a D pad direction to do the attack, but what you said is still an upgrade from what it currently is.

Me and Vex both GREATLY disagree with your opinion on Sora's Fire move btw, especially if used intelligently.

Well I think I have said everything i have to, mostly in that huge post above.

 

[[TSON]]

(to be more specific on his ideal jumping speed: Melee Sheik/Fox. Meaning megaman should be on the ground for 3 animation frames, and then be in the air on frame 4 (able to do any attack on this frame or even double jump like you can in other smash games). Try this out, I will test it in detail after you make this his jumping speed, and I will give detailed feedback afterwords.

It's possible to switch in 6 frames, M2K. There is 0 frames of startup, on frame one you can press a direction (or not) and let go of B, and after 1 frame on that power you can switch to it with 5 frames of endlag on change. I noticed in the videos you were kinda slow with it, prob because you don't have the directions memorized yet (?) but it'll get better.

Private build has doublejumps fixed, get on Vex about applying for a balancer like I asked him in PMs on MG so you can get all of the goodies when you're with him. You could apply yourself too if you want & you can playtest w/ him and let us know if your MM ideas are working out & etc.

& I think Sora's fire is really good (especially since there's that landing doubletap glitch that makes him blitz the entire stage basically) but I wouldn't call it OP honestly... It doesn't kill for a long time, doesn't do that much damage, and doesn't setup for anything. It's actually punishable on hit for the first few frames.

But ye. *starts passing on MM changes*

EDIT: MM has 2 frames of jump startup as-is, M2K. You know we run at 30 FPS right? Did you want it 1 frame?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I'll do the application tonight or tomorrow during the day, people been here all week plus I work, so no time to really do it!

 

[felipe_9595]

I agree with MK, Megaman Uair sucks. It does little to nothing damage and the startup lag is huge. The only usefulness i could find of it is to techchase an opponent that felt in a platform over (Since you can SH > uair), and even for that is a bad, since you have tons of better options.

M2k, i saw your megaman in the stream and i liked it a lot, but you should spam more the missiles. They are by far megaman best power, you can simply stick a missile to a shield (since they are really hard to avoid), go for a grab/smash/ tilt and then blow it up, in certain character you can even combo them. For example, you can kill a naruto in 50-60% with an Fsmash > missile.

 

[Mew2King]

hmm really? why does it feel SO EASY to short hop then?? that's weird o_O it feels SUPER easy to short hop, are you really in air on frame 2???? Maybe on the B thing but I still feel like its not as useful atm but i can test it more (later can't really test it today cuz im leaving and won't be back for a while probably) but switching is still usually pointless when you can focus on other ways to fight and space. Feels more practical to not switch at all.

i think those stream matches were not that great cuz me and vex both weren't warmed up but i guess it's ok.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Yea, those stream matches were *** tbh lol, anyway, streaming the tournament now.

http://www.livestream.com/vexkasrani

Smash Flash 2 singles starting now, 9 entrants.

 

[[TSON]]

hmm really? why does it feel SO EASY to short hop then?? that's weird o_O it feels SUPER easy to short hop, are you really in air on frame 2????

Two frames startup, air frame 3.

i think those stream matches were not that great cuz me and vex both weren't warmed up but i guess it's ok.

gimme more when you get back imo

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

this is m2k, i pretty much said what i had to in that long post i made of orange.

 

[[TSON]]

no new thoughts at all? :o

well we're working on your changes.

 

[felipe_9595]

this is m2k, i pretty much said what i had to in that long post i made of orange.

Dude, i am terrible sorry that your missiles bugged out in the middle of the GF :C

But you should use them more xD

 

[Vex Kasrani]

For some reason, in my stream recording achieve, I don't see the recording saved, hopefully it's just taking forever, because it was like 5-7 hours of recording, but it may be lost. ;[

 

[felipe_9595]

For some reason, in my stream recording achieve, I don't see the recording saved, hopefully it's just taking forever, because it was like 5-7 hours of recording, but it may be lost. ;[

Nooooooooooo we cant loss the Nair > Fair > Uair Combo with naruto ;;__;;

 

[Vex Kasrani]

was that while I was in gravity?

 

[felipe_9595]

was that while I was in gravity?

Yeah, that combo.


M2k was unlucky as **** xD His missiles bugged out, he got comboed by his own move and then you got the invincibility glitch xDDDDDDD

 

[[TSON]]

For some reason, in my stream recording achieve, I don't see the recording saved, hopefully it's just taking forever, because it was like 5-7 hours of recording, but it may be lost. ;[

yeah i think it is, there's a random recording for 54 minutes of you guys screwing around but that's it

 

[Mew2King]

ICHIGO IS RETARDEDLY BROKEN LOLOLOL

sora slightly 2 good

otherwise other chars are pretty good afaik

 

[[TSON]]

ICHIGO IS RETARDEDLY BROKEN LOLOLOL

sora slightly 2 good

otherwise other chars are pretty good afaik

we have things for u to test including a MM with almost all of the changes you asked for so......

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGhsMEdBcUV2MmRjRGV3WUtUdkdvYVE6MQ

plz apply

 

[Mypantisgone]

Is there a specific way to use peach's FS?
Cuz' i don't get it >_>

 

[[TSON]]

ignoring the graphical glitch, it carries them up and star KOs. Try to trap them in it and hit them on their way up/to keep them in if you wanna, or use it on the ground to make a big pillar of energy that they can't pass through but you can.

 

[[TSON]]

666
10-666s

 

[VoiD-]

McLeodGaming is now on Facebook, Twitter, and Google+!
Be sure to Like Us, Follow us, and/or +1 us in order to stay fully up to date on what's happening with McLeodGaming/SSF2.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Guys, good news, I found the stream file on my computer with the full tournament, gonna upload top 4 sometime this week!

 

[[TSON]]

Added your vidjas to the OP because amazeballs.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I still have grand finals to uploaded but been busy/procrastinating, derp

 

[VoiD-]

News roundup

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

News roundup

Well, i'm glad to hear...well, read this.

Now, if only the game could have better voice and sound clips...

 

[[TSON]]

Which ones don't you like?

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Which ones don't you like?

I don't like the fact that Mario has his poor Brawl voice. He should have voice clips from his source games. They sound more natural for him.

I don't like the fact that all anime characters speak in Japanese, except for Kakarot. I say they all speak in either English or Japanese(preferably the former, so one could understand they the hell they are saying)!

I don't like the fact that they mix voice clips by different VA's for Sonic and Tails. Voice from only one VA should be more natural. Sonic shouldn't sound like he's voiced by Jason Griffith at one moment, then sound like Roger Craig Smith the next. Same for Tails.

Also, the SFX for the original SSB were better, especially the slashes and the audience. Melee is fine, as well.

A nip-tick.

 

[dettadeus]

I don't like the fact that all anime characters speak in Japanese, except for Kakarot. I say they all speak in either English or Japanese(preferably the former, so one could understand they the hell they are saying)!

Who the heck watches anime dubbed? Japanese voices >>>>>>> english dubbed voices in about 95% of anime.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Who the heck watches anime dubbed?

Hmm... Let's see...

Those that don't want to waste their time with subtitles
Those the can't keep up with subtitles
Illiterate People
Those that can't stand Japanese Voices("Moe" characters)
Those those that believe than English fits a certain tone better(Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Metal Gear)
Those that believe that foreign dubs enhance a certain series better than the Japanese original(look up "Woolseyism")

...yeah, many reasons.

But, hey. You could probably get every character in SSF2 to speak in Japanese, including Red M.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmYsS_hvqYQ

jeez looks at all the comments, i haven't seen this level and density of scrubs on youtube since fox only final destination was released. guess that's the kind of audience you get being a flash game <_<

 

[GP&B]

Nearly every single one of them is a casual elitist. It's ridiculous.

 

[dettadeus]

Lmfao

you can tell when someone's a complete and total scrub when they go onto a video with m2k playing vex and say they suck