Super Smash Bros. Melee 2 - Should Smash 4 be closely similar (gameplay wise) to Melee?

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Jay Z is not great. He's a Satanist.

he's great if you love satan

 

[pizzapie7]

I've seen well over three-hundred of these scrubs, and about three "nice" ones. This isn't just in one forum, this is across every SSB forum I've ever read. This isn't a mangled opinion from a quick glance, this is from years of reading Smash fan's opinions and wants.

Smash hasn't had anything significant become widely used on the internet, so it's impossible to say. But if the Smash fanbase's opinion is anything like the Mario Kart fanbase's, you'll see quite the uproar should Wavedashing make it into SSB4. You say it doesn't effect casuals, but it does. What about when casuals learn to use the "technique?" People at almost all levels of play will use it. What about those people who want to play online without glitches? Nope, can't, sorry. So they're removed so that in the end, less people are complaining.

Wavedashing fits both. Ninty-nine times out of one-hundred, people will Wavedash instead of walking towards the opponent. One, normally central, aspect is almost completely ignored because a glitch gives people a better option. And it's an overly difficult imput for the casual-focused party game, don't you think?

Like I said, they are. Especially since there won't be a real ranking system. But that's a whole other debate if you want to go down that road.

You said "They're fine-tuning tweaks that only 3% of the people who play the game will notice and maybe a half or so will honestly care.", remember? Did you mean ".3%" or am I missing something?

I don't agree with your logic behind forming opinions of groups of people based off of what you see on the internet.

Those people should either get better at the game or play with friends or not play online. Why is Smash different than any other online game? Chances are if they don't know about the "technique" and they don't want to learn about it they aren't going to have fun playing a PvP game in a competitive environment in the first place. These same people would in all likelihood just complain about something else. What you're describing it a tit-for-tat definition of a scrub (under Sirlin's definition, because quoting Sirlin makes me sound like I know what the **** I'm talking about). Casual players who want to get better and improve themselves will embrace the technique. Casual players who don't want to work and just want an excuse as to why they are losing are going to whine on the internet, but scrubs whine on the internet about every video game, whether or not those techniques exist. Their subsequent removal changes nothing, because scrubs are still going to whine, while removing the available options players have. If those options are replaced, nothing is lost and nothing is gained, but if they aren't the game has lost something.

Why do you pull numbers out of thin air? People don't wavedash 99% of the time. Wavedashing is an option but it's not the only option and while it's the best option some of the times it's certainly not all of the time. You can walk, you can run, you can crawl, you can roll. Those don't magically not exist anymore because wavedashing happens to eclipse them in use in situations. It gives them a better option, sure, but it's giving them an option. And no, I don't think the input is difficult. If you tell someone to air dodge into the ground they'll pick it up in a good fifteen minutes max. Learning to properly use it is more difficult. None of the basic inputs in Smash are difficult, it's the application that ends up being difficult.

And when I said half, I meant half a percent.

 

[wewewezing]

I put more time into brawl than any other smash game, almost to an obscene level

But recently as I have become more and more aware about the competitive scene in Melee, I've dusted of my old copy of Melee and started playing it again

and good god, its so much more fun. Don't get me wrong, I love brawl, its a blast, but something about melee's gameplay makes it much more engaging and fun. I'm hoping that Smash 4 brings that aspect too.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't agree with your logic behind forming opinions of groups of people based off of what you see on the internet.

Those people should either get better at the game or play with friends or not play online. Why is Smash different than any other online game? Chances are if they don't know about the "technique" and they don't want to learn about it they aren't going to have fun playing a PvP game in a competitive environment in the first place. These same people would in all likelihood just complain about something else. What you're describing it a tit-for-tat definition of a scrub (under Sirlin's definition, because quoting Sirlin makes me sound like I know what the **** I'm talking about). Casual players who want to get better and improve themselves will embrace the technique. Casual players who don't want to work and just want an excuse as to why they are losing are going to whine on the internet, but scrubs whine on the internet about every video game, whether or not those techniques exist. Their subsequent removal changes nothing, because scrubs are still going to whine, while removing the available options players have. If those options are replaced, nothing is lost and nothing is gained, but if they aren't the game has lost something.

Why do you pull numbers out of thin air? People don't wavedash 99% of the time. Wavedashing is an option but it's not the only option and while it's the best option some of the times it's certainly not all of the time. You can walk, you can run, you can crawl, you can roll. Those don't magically not exist anymore because wavedashing happens to eclipse them in use in situations. It gives them a better option, sure, but it's giving them an option. And no, I don't think the input is difficult. If you tell someone to air dodge into the ground they'll pick it up in a good fifteen minutes max. Learning to properly use it is more difficult. None of the basic inputs in Smash are difficult, it's the application that ends up being difficult.

And when I said half, I meant half a percent.

You're saying that practically every Melee supporter I've ever met was a scrub. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

Wether or not something adds to the game or derails it is entirely opinion. Sakurai can pick precisely one option, not both. The way he choose leads to less complaining and a more fair game in the long run. Were we ever supposed to be this "free" in Melee? Were we supposed to have so little commitment to our actions? No and no. You can play your game however you want, but you have to realize you're asking for long-removed glitches to be added back in.

Wavedashing into an attack is, more often then not, the better option. That's because Wavedashing isn't really just one option. You can do almost anything out of it.

Understood.

 

[pizzapie7]

You're saying that practically every Melee supporter I've ever met was a scrub. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

Wether or not something adds to the game or derails it is entirely opinion. Sakurai can pick precisely one option, not both. The way he choose leads to less complaining and a more fair game in the long run. Were we ever supposed to be this "free" in Melee? Were we supposed to have so little commitment to our actions? No and no. You can play your game however you want, but you have to realize you're asking for long-removed glitches to be added back in.

Wavedashing into an attack is, more often then not, the better option. That's because Wavedashing isn't really just one option. You can do almost anything out of it.

Understood.

Yes I understand that's exactly what I'm saying. But considering you've already admitted to never actually meeting any of them, I'm not sure why it sounds ridiculous to you. My experience with any video game community (which is only Melee and Brawl) is that the online community is a lot worse than the in person one. No offense meant to anyone.

Who cares if we were ever supposed to be that free? What matters is that we were, and it was awesome. This whole thread is a pipe dream, I'm not exactly sure why it was ever made in the first place. But if we're in the realm of fantasy, we might as well discuss it. This is no different than asking for obscure characters. I know it's never coming back, I'm just making my irrelevant case as to why if there was an option, it should be.

Some characters wavedash a lot. Some don't. Some characters use a certain option a lot. Some don't. You're acting like wavedashing has some sort of a dominance over the game where everybody does it all the time. The game is not a slip in slide (unless you're watching Luigi vs Ice Climbers).

 

[Shikenshu]

Lancer, do you even play Melee? If you don't, then how the F can you talk about the best options?

Who said that we were not supposed to be this "free" in Melee? You? I'm sorry but if Sakurai never said so, it's not true. Btw, wavedash was known before Melee release.

Also, why does removing ATs like WD or l-cancel makes this game more fair? These are not random, they require practice. Don't you agree that someone who puts more time in a game should win more than someone who don't. Everyone can learn these techniques if they put some time in the game. If the people that complains about these techs were practicing instead of whining, they would be able to use these techs. Also, wavedash and l-cancel are pretty easy to use with some practice, it's much more easier than some techs in other competitive games.

 

[Frank Weast]

Lancer, do you even play Melee? If you don't, then how the F can you talk about the best options?

Who said that we were not supposed to be this "free" in Melee? You? I'm sorry but if Sakurai never said so, it's not true. Btw, wavedash was known before Melee release.

Also, why does removing ATs like WD or l-cancel makes this game more fair? These are not random, they require practice. Don't you agree that someone who puts more time in a game should win more than someone who don't. Everyone can learn these techniques if they put some time in the game. If the people that complains about these techs were practicing instead of whining, they would be able to use these techs. Also, wavedash and l-cancel are pretty easy to use with some practice, it's much more easier than some techs in other competitive games.

Well don't forget even though wavedashing and L-canceling were a big part of the meta not all characters can utilizes how it work like Game and watch with l-canceling and it didn't help bowser much since his moves and ending lag on aerials was terrible, even having the ability to wavedash didn't help much . While these things are cool sometimes we have to move from these so techniques and adapt to something new

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes I understand that's exactly what I'm saying. But considering you've already admitted to never actually meeting any of them, I'm not sure why it sounds ridiculous to you. My experience with any video game community (which is only Melee and Brawl) is that the online community is a lot worse than the in person one. No offense meant to anyone.

Who cares if we were ever supposed to be that free? What matters is that we were, and it was awesome. This whole thread is a pipe dream, I'm not exactly sure why it was ever made in the first place. But if we're in the realm of fantasy, we might as well discuss it. This is no different than asking for obscure characters. I know it's never coming back, I'm just making my irrelevant case as to why if there was an option, it should be.

Some characters wavedash a lot. Some don't. Some characters use a certain option a lot. Some don't. You're acting like wavedashing has some sort of a dominance over the game where everybody does it all the time. The game is not a slip in slide (unless you're watching Luigi vs Ice Climbers).

But now, we come to a conundrum. We can't link the anonymous with the real players. I've seen people go all two-faced as soon as I hop from one forum to another. And you can't prove these people aren't the same. You also can't say who's the "true" fans, and you can't say who there's more of either.

I understand.

But there is a dominance. Why simply attack when you can attack and move at the same time? Really, when you're not Peach or Jigglypuff, the question becomes when not to Wavedash instead of when to Wavedash. Yes, there's a gap where your better off just simply attacking. But this area is often ignored because the Wavedash + attack gap eclipses it. Why run, stop, then attack when you can just Wavedash and attack?

Lancer, do you even play Melee? If you don't, then how the F can you talk about the best options?

Who said that we were not supposed to be this "free" in Melee? You? I'm sorry but if Sakurai never said so, it's not true. Btw, wavedash was known before Melee release.

Also, why does removing ATs like WD or l-cancel makes this game more fair? These are not random, they require practice. Don't you agree that someone who puts more time in a game should win more than someone who don't. Everyone can learn these techniques if they put some time in the game. If the people that complains about these techs were practicing instead of whining, they would be able to use these techs. Also, wavedash and l-cancel are pretty easy to use with some practice, it's much more easier than some techs in other competitive games.

I sometimes play a bit with friends (usually when we don't have the right controllers for Brawl on Wii U), but they're not really competitive. They can Wavedash and L-cancel, but only because I've explained how. I will admit my Melee experience is limited.

Sakurai found Wavedashing, not put in Wavedashing. You don't just wake up and find characters in video games, do you? L-canceling was intentional, yes, but it's a lousy mechanic. Many Melee players will attest to this.

They create an artificial knowledge gap, and a pretty significant one at that. Where should the line between "unfair glitch" and "useful mechanic" be drawn? Personally, I will use "techs" mercilessly online. But is it wrong to ask that glitches be fixed? SSB being casual focused fixes everything to keep the skill gap at the minimum.

 

[Frank Weast]

But now, we come to a conundrum. We can't link the anonymous with the real players. I've seen people go all two-faced as soon as I hop from one forum to another. And you can't prove these people aren't the same. You also can't say who's the "true" fans, and you can't say who there's more of either.

I understand.

But there is a dominance. Why simply attack when you can attack and move at the same time? Really, when you're not Peach or Jigglypuff, the question becomes when not to Wavedash instead of when to Wavedash. Yes, there's a gap where your better off just simply attacking. But this area is often ignored because the Wavedash + attack gap eclipses it. Why run, stop, then attack when you can just Wavedash and attack?



I sometimes play a bit with friends (usually when we don't have the right controllers for Brawl on Wii U), but they're not really competitive. They can Wavedash and L-cancel, but only because I've explained how. I will admit my Melee experience is limited.

Sakurai found Wavedashing, not put in Wavedashing. You don't just wake up and find characters in video games, do you? L-canceling was intentional, yes, but it's a lousy mechanic. Many Melee players will attest to this.

They create an artificial knowledge gap, and a pretty significant one at that. Where should the line between "unfair glitch" and "useful mechanic" be drawn? Personally, I will use "techs" mercilessly online. But is it wrong to ask that glitches be fixed? SSB being casual focused fixes everything to keep the skill gap at the minimum.

I agree with most of what you say, but keep in mind this is a fighting game players will find ways to widen the gap between players game with or without so called advance techniques, just like brawl.

 

[yahooda]

So far, even though people have been saying it looks like Brawl 2, I personally think that it's more like 64, but with less hitstun and Brawl's air dodges thrown in.

 

[Shikenshu]

Sakurai found Wavedashing, not put in Wavedashing. You don't just wake up and find characters in video games, do you? L-canceling was intentional, yes, but it's a lousy mechanic. Many Melee players will attest to this.

They create an artificial knowledge gap, and a pretty significant one at that. Where should the line between "unfair glitch" and "useful mechanic" be drawn? Personally, I will use "techs" mercilessly online. But is it wrong to ask that glitches be fixed? SSB being casual focused fixes everything to keep the skill gap at the minimum.

Yeah, Sakurai found wavedash, but he chose to keep it in. It's not that hard to code that if a character is in airdodge state and he hits the ground, he lose horizontal and vertical momentum.

And tbh, I don't think wavedash, l-cancel and other ATs create a real gap between players. It's not because you know them that you will know how to use them and it's not because you don't know them that you don't know how to play. I believe that knowing fundamentals is much more important than knowing ATs. When I say fundamentals, I'm speaking about spacing, footsies and all that stuff. Wavedashing around mindlessly and whiffing SHFFLs will not make you win, but actually lose if your opponent knows basic fundamentals.

Some players are SUPER technical, but don't win ****, but other players are less technical, but are much better. For exemple, Dark is a very technical fox (go watch "How Fast Is Melee?" on Youtube if you never saw it), but he does not win a lot of tournaments. On the other hand, Hbox is really not that technical, but he is in the top 5 of the best players. Dark is more technical than Hbox, but Hbox is the best player by miles, because he has better fundamentals.

Also, if casuals play with other casuals, they won't see a problem with mechanics they don't use. However if they play at tournaments or online against good players, yeah, they will probably get wrecked, but the solution is not to whine. If I play a game online and I get wrecked, I will either learn how to play better or I will stop playing against better player and go play with players around my level.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, Sakurai found wavedash, but he chose to keep it in. It's not that hard to code that if a character is in airdodge state and he hits the ground, he lose horizontal and vertical momentum.

And tbh, I don't think wavedash, l-cancel and other ATs create a real gap between players. It's not because you know them that you will know how to use them and it's not because you don't know them that you don't know how to play. I believe that knowing fundamentals is much more important than knowing ATs. When I say fundamentals, I'm speaking about spacing, footsies and all that stuff. Wavedashing around mindlessly and whiffing SHFFLs will not make you win, but actually lose if your opponent knows basic fundamentals.

Some players are SUPER technical, but don't win ****, but other players are less technical, but are much better. For exemple, Dark is a very technical fox (go watch "How Fast Is Melee?" on Youtube if you never saw it), but he does not win a lot of tournaments. On the other hand, Hbox is really not that technical, but he is in the top 5 of the best players. Dark is more technical than Hbox, but Hbox is the best player by miles, because he has better fundamentals.

Also, if casuals play with other casuals, they won't see a problem with mechanics they don't use. However if they play at tournaments or online against good players, yeah, they will probably get wrecked, but the solution is not to whine. If I play a game online and I get wrecked, I will either learn how to play better or I will stop playing against better player and go play with players around my level.

Not only was it late in development, it was likely seen as a harmless glitch. I'm doubtful they even did full-length Wavedashes, much less knew the effects it would have on competitive play.

The gap is, more often then not, those who will and won't use "techs." Those that don't use them see them simply as gameplay derailment. Remember Snaking? Snakers support Snaking as much as any of you supporting Melee "techs." There is no definitive line drawn, and Sakurai decided to support the casual side of the fanbase.

Let's work this the other way around. People are fine with comparably techless characters in Melee. What's so bad about bringing everybody to that level?

What's wrong with asking for glitches to be patched? Are the people who want firehopping in MK8 gone wrong? They have the full right to complain, and the developers can choose to listen to them.

 

[JV5Chris]

Why simply attack when you can attack and move at the same time? Really, when you're not Peach or Jigglypuff, the question becomes when not to Wavedash instead of when to Wavedash. Yes, there's a gap where your better off just simply attacking. But this area is often ignored because the Wavedash + attack gap eclipses it. Why run, stop, then attack when you can just Wavedash and attack?

I'll refer you to the smash wiki:

Despite its versatility, wavedashing requires considerable startup. A character is vulnerable (and not yet moving) while performing the jump and air dodge, and for 10 frames afterwards they are unable to attack (while "landing" from the wavedash). Because of this lag, it is unwieldy for a character to wavedash in close quarters where quick attacks endanger them, and prediction is a must.

Baiting players into a punishable wavedash happens all the time. When someone haphazardly slides around they're putting themselves at greater risk of a shield grab, out of shield attacks, projectiles, and/or loosing in what could otherwise be an even exchange. Like rolling, the actual distance can also become predictable, especially when someone overdoes it.

Also in Melee attacking someone's shield is a more viable means to create distance (Ganondorf lives and dies by it). Wavedashing in those cases can be self-defeating. For example with Fox at times it's better to run > crouch > up-Smash. If they do shield you will have a little more space and be less open for a counter.

Also worth noting just how good just the basic ground movement in Melee is. There's no reason to limit your approach options to some combination of wavedashing and an attack. Running/walking is still the most dependable form of movement and positioning. Don't get me wrong, wavedashing is still a very good tool, but it's not quite that bulletproof or all encompassing.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll refer you to the smash wiki:


Baiting players into a punishable wavedash happens all the time. When someone haphazardly slides around they're putting themselves at greater risk of a shield grab, out of shield attacks, projectiles, and/or loosing in what could otherwise be an even exchange. Like rolling, the actual distance can also become predictable, especially when someone overdoes it.

There are times too in Melee where attacking someone's shield is a viable means to create distance (Ganondorf lives and dies by it). Wavedashing in those cases can be self-defeating. For example with Fox at times it's better to run > crouch > up-Smash. If they do shield you will have a little more space and be less open for a counter.

Also worth noting just how good just the basic ground movement in Melee is. There's no reason to limit your approach options to some combination of wavedashing and an attack. Running/walking is still the most dependable form of movement and positioning. Don't get me wrong, wavedashing is still a very good tool, but it's not quite that bulletproof or all encompassing.

I knew Wavedashing took time to use, but I didn't think it was that much. I'll admit I'm wrong on that account.

But I still see Wavedashed attacks outnumber the "normal" ones by a good margin. I still say Wavedashing fits the definition of "gameplay derailment" to a T.

 

[JV5Chris]

I knew Wavedashing took time to use, but I didn't think it was that much. I'll admit I'm wrong on that account.

But I still see Wavedashed attacks outnumber the "normal" ones by a good margin. I still say Wavedashing fits the definition of "gameplay derailment" to a T.

That depends on the character. You're going to see Foxes and Falco's for example utilize it considerably more than say Shiek. Wavedashing does alter how high level Melee is played, but I'd say it's still inarguably Smash.

 

[Cassio]

No, because Melee added wayy more to 64´s formula. Brawl removed the 64 foundation ENTIRELY (trying to level the playing field so scrubs can go even with Mew2King is bad game design, players who put more time into the game to learn the game should be rewarded), and now Smash 4 is working off Brawl´s formula, but even more gimped in certain areas. However there are areas in the game that show thats its progressing towards the 64 formula (woop for hitstun ), but the gimped areas make it so these benefits aren´t very significant (laggier moves make it hard to actually do nice combos, or actually approach and get the combo STARTED).

Honestly, reading all your recent posts you're just spreading false information with no basis. I would suggest investing more time into learning about smash before attempting to argue its properties or making value judgements. I don't mean to be rude about it but you really have very little understanding atm. "64s foundation", 'meant to leveling the playing field', and "smash 4s formula", etc is gibberish that has no sound logic or factual basis to it. It's like you're making up nonsense just to support your "Melee good smash 4 bad" stance. The information you present is so out of nowhere it should make little sense to anyone trying to argue reasonably. It's like hearing the "we didn't land on the moon " conspiracy theories and 'evidence'. Again not trying to be mean but there's nothing to say except that you're wrong because you're pulling ideas out of nowhere just to support your stance and heavily straw man with these poor ideas.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Melee is definitely its own game compared to 64. Smash 4compared to Brawl are strikingly similar in the fact that they both share streamlined gameplay wih limiting options. I've played the demo for roughly an hour (30 2 minute matches, I woke up at the crack of dawn to do that lol). CHARACTERS move faster in terms of dash and air speed, but Brawl's general physics changes are still there (I.e, THE GAME IS NOT FAST). You do not get momentum from a dash (a mechanic thats in EVERY platformer, and not in Brawl or in this game). Even casuals would like this to be included. Who wouldn't wanna see Sonic running at top speed, then jumping and flying across the stage? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

Aerial attacks are highly risky. Many people want aerials to not be so risky like they were in Brawl. Many people proposed L-Cancelling. Some people say L-Cancelling takes no skill so aerials should just autocancel automatically. I disagree with both of these options. Adding an arbitrary button press is stupid. Dumbing down a game EVEN FURTHER is stupid. So make L-Cancelling have a negative side effect! Like if you miss a cancel, DOUBLE LANDING LAG! OH NOW ITS NOT A NOOB FRIENDLY TECHNIQUE, says all of the casuals.

To me, wavedashing is probably the closest thing to awesome platform interaction we'll get. In Brawl, platforms getting in the way of your "combo" are basically free combo exit signs for your opponent. In Melee/PM, wavedashing allowed to continue your combo on the platform to continue follow ups. I'm not asking for it to return. I want a meaningful way to interact with platforms again.

Also, higher gravity. The game is still floaty. Juggles are still useless.

I agree with you there. As far as falling speed, it was only a slight increase.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Honestly, reading all your recent posts you're just spreading false information with no basis. I would suggest investing more time into learning about smash before attempting to argue its properties or making value judgements. I don't mean to be rude about it but you really have very little understanding atm. "64s foundation", 'meant to leveling the playing field', and "smash 4s formula", etc is gibberish that has no sound logic or factual basis to it. It's like you're making up nonsense just to support your "Melee good smash 4 bad" stance. The information you present is so out of nowhere it should make little sense to anyone trying to argue reasonably. It's like hearing the "we didn't land on the moon " conspiracy theories and 'evidence'. Again not trying to be mean but there's nothing to say except that you're wrong because you're pulling ideas out of nowhere just to support your stance and heavily straw man with these poor ideas.

-Tell me a safe approach in this game that you've found (still low shieldstun and attacks are laggier, making less moves safe in general)
-Show me a combo that actually exists.
-Show me evidence that the game engine is faster than Brawl, and its not the characters that give the illusion of the game engine being faster. I mean we have tons of faster moving characters now. Fox, Greninja, Mario, Shiek, Marth, DK, ZSS, etc. The characters having higher running and air speeds don´t necessarily make the game faster.

Sakurai has said he wants everyone to win in Smash 4. Factual basis.

Please enlighten me.

 

[PadWarrior]

No. Should be it's own game.