Super Smash Bros. Melee 2 - Should Smash 4 be closely similar (gameplay wise) to Melee?

[victinivcreate1]

Senario thats a pretty poor analysis.

But youre wrong. May as well call melee 64 2.0.

Melee is definitely its own game compared to 64. Smash 4compared to Brawl are strikingly similar in the fact that they both share streamlined gameplay wih limiting options. I've played the demo for roughly an hour (30 2 minute matches, I woke up at the crack of dawn to do that lol). CHARACTERS move faster in terms of dash and air speed, but Brawl's general physics changes are still there (I.e, THE GAME IS NOT FAST). You do not get momentum from a dash (a mechanic thats in EVERY platformer, and not in Brawl or in this game). Even casuals would like this to be included. Who wouldn't wanna see Sonic running at top speed, then jumping and flying across the stage? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

Aerial attacks are highly risky. Many people want aerials to not be so risky like they were in Brawl. Many people proposed L-Cancelling. Some people say L-Cancelling takes no skill so aerials should just autocancel automatically. I disagree with both of these options. Adding an arbitrary button press is stupid. Dumbing down a game EVEN FURTHER is stupid. So make L-Cancelling have a negative side effect! Like if you miss a cancel, DOUBLE LANDING LAG! OH NOW ITS NOT A NOOB FRIENDLY TECHNIQUE, says all of the casuals.

To me, wavedashing is probably the closest thing to awesome platform interaction we'll get. In Brawl, platforms getting in the way of your "combo" are basically free combo exit signs for your opponent. In Melee/PM, wavedashing allowed to continue your combo on the platform to continue follow ups. I'm not asking for it to return. I want a meaningful way to interact with platforms again.

Also, higher gravity. The game is still floaty. Juggles are still useless.

 

[Crome]

I think sm4sh will be around PM level of play. They seem to have a taken quite a but from it.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I think sm4sh will be around PM level of play. They seem to have a taken quite a but from it.

Its not.

 

[LancerStaff]

I honestly would not be surprised if the game has a "melee mode". There won't be a need for a PMU if that is the case, and it would be exactly what the doctor ordered as far as a balance between the two. The normal or standard mode being more like brawl and a "melee mode" which the esports and competitive crowd can embrace and make amazing. Honestly I have a gut feeling about this.

I don't expect Sakurai to balance two completely different games. Melee mode, if it somehow existed, would horribly broken. And why would Sakurai give up and just remake the same old game? He's listening to the Japanese competitive community, which widely supports Brawl over Melee. There'd be a Brawl mode long before a Melee mode comes around.

 

[Cassio]

Stuff

You literally spent your full post comparing the game to Melee then called it brawl, proving EXACTLY what I said (it's not Melee, ergo brawl). On top of demonstrating you don't know much about Brawl or game design either...64 2.0 is the perfect way of describing Melee based on the way you compare the games.

 

[victinivcreate1]

You literally spent your full post comparing the game to Melee then called it brawl, proving EXACTLY what I said (it's not Melee, ergo brawl). On top of demonstrating you don't know much about Brawl or game design either...64 2.0 is the perfect way of describing Melee based on the way you compare the games.

No, because Melee added wayy more to 64´s formula. Brawl removed the 64 foundation ENTIRELY (trying to level the playing field so scrubs can go even with Mew2King is bad game design, players who put more time into the game to learn the game should be rewarded), and now Smash 4 is working off Brawl´s formula, but even more gimped in certain areas. However there are areas in the game that show thats its progressing towards the 64 formula (woop for hitstun ), but the gimped areas make it so these benefits aren´t very significant (laggier moves make it hard to actually do nice combos, or actually approach and get the combo STARTED).

 

[Ember Reaper]

It's not even finished or out yet. I usually lurk around, but all I've seen today are your posts complaining about a game that's not even out yet. Just relax. If you don't like the game when we can play it 24/7 fine, respectfully say so when it's necessary. We don't know the level of playing curve that's in the game, we only got a sampling of it. I didn't personally get to play, but I've only heard good things, save for missing a few ATs. Maybe have some new ones we don't know yet!

 

[victinivcreate1]

It's not even finished or out yet. I usually lurk around, but all I've seen today are your posts complaining about a game that's not even out yet. Just relax. If you don't like the game when we can play it 24/7 fine, respectfully say so when it's necessary. We don't know the level of playing curve that's in the game, we only got a sampling of it. I didn't personally get to play, but I've only heard good things, save for missing a few ATs. Maybe have some new ones we don't know yet!

If you´ve only heard good things, IDK where you´ve been. There has been plenty of complaints for the game, most unjustified, but some legit. My complaints may be unjust, but at least I try to explain it out.

 

[Canuckduck]

It's not even finished or out yet. I usually lurk around, but all I've seen today are your posts complaining about a game that's not even out yet. Just relax. If you don't like the game when we can play it 24/7 fine, respectfully say so when it's necessary. We don't know the level of playing curve that's in the game, we only got a sampling of it. I didn't personally get to play, but I've only heard good things, save for missing a few ATs. Maybe have some new ones we don't know yet!

Are you referring to me? If so, I'm not complaining about anything. I'm just offering my input.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Are you referring to me? If so, I'm not complaining about anything. I'm just offering my input.

Na, not you, I meant victinivcreate1

If you´ve only heard good things, IDK where you´ve been. There has been plenty of complaints for the game, most unjustified, but some legit. My complaints may be unjust, but at least I try to explain it out.

Apparently under a rock.

It looks great in my opinion so far, and I'll admit, I'm a Brawl player. But I see the speed in melee and enjoy it. PM? great too. We don't need ultimate speed to be competitive. A competitive game comes from consistent results. Where one player is consistently better. This includes many tihngs that will make people angry, yes. We have consistent winners in both games, until someone comes and dethrones them to some extent. That changes the game a bit then. With that it means the game grows. There will be a scene for sm4sh to some extent. Maybe it will be faster, maybe not.

Maybe an even better AT than wavedashing and such will be created! How exciting would that be!

 

[victinivcreate1]

Na, not you, I meant victinivcreate1



Apparently under a rock.

It looks great in my opinion so far, and I'll admit, I'm a Brawl player. But I see the speed in melee and enjoy it. PM? great too. We don't need ultimate speed to be competitive. A competitive game comes from consistent results. Where one player is consistently better. This includes many tihngs that will make people angry, yes. We have consistent winners in both games, until someone comes and dethrones them to some extent. That changes the game a bit then. With that it means the game grows. There will be a scene for sm4sh to some extent. Maybe it will be faster, maybe not.

Maybe an even better AT than wavedashing and such will be created! How exciting would that be!

I think both wavedashing and l-cancelling are kinda dumb. if there´s a new tech thats just as meaningful, I´ll be hyped. But there is no excuse for basic things like momentum from dash carried into jump. Im sorry but Sakurai removing that shows me he doesn´t even know basic physics lol.

 

[Ember Reaper]

I think both wavedashing and l-cancelling are kinda dumb. if there´s a new tech thats just as meaningful, I´ll be hyped. But there is no excuse for basic things like momentum from dash carried into jump. Im sorry but Sakurai removing that shows me he doesn´t even know basic physics lol.

double jumping.
Smash has never really followed physics properly.

I remember my brother... upon the first time playing the Captain in PM (hes a brawler also) described him as a rocket.
He proceeded to die because he launched so far across the stage, which we both laughed at profusely, and have since gotten used to.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, because Melee added wayy more to 64´s formula. Brawl removed the 64 foundation ENTIRELY (trying to level the playing field so scrubs can go even with Mew2King is bad game design, players who put more time into the game to learn the game should be rewarded), and now Smash 4 is working off Brawl´s formula, but even more gimped in certain areas. However there are areas in the game that show thats its progressing towards the 64 formula (woop for hitstun ), but the gimped areas make it so these benefits aren´t very significant (laggier moves make it hard to actually do nice combos, or actually approach and get the combo STARTED).

Melee removed complete L-canceling, nerfed hitstun, arbitrarily made the game faster...

No doubt if SSB64 came second and Melee third, 64 players would be our Melee players and Melee players our Brawl players.

 

[victinivcreate1]

double jumping.
Smash has never really followed physics properly.

I remember my brother... upon the first time playing the Captain in PM (hes a brawler also) described him as a rocket.
He proceeded to die because he launched so far across the stage, which we both laughed at profusely, and have since gotten used to.

I love doing that. Even more fun to do that as Sonic. He FLIES XD. I´ve considered maining Sonic and Falcon just so I can fly across the stage and win matches with exciting, flashy combos. Unfortunately I´m not very good with either lol.

But I cant do that in Smash 4. Why not?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Melee removed complete L-canceling, nerfed hitstun, arbitrarily made the game faster...

No doubt if SSB64 came second and Melee third, 64 players would be our Melee players and Melee players our Brawl players.

Not really. Because for one thing, combos are still VERY existent in Melee. Its via the speed that you can still 0-death. Brawl has VERY FEW true combos because of how overly strong defense is.

If Melee was Brawl, then that´d be the case. But Melee has actual hitstun. Brawl doesn´t, SSB4 does but its too laggy and slow to perform any decent combo.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not really. Because for one thing, combos are still VERY existent in Melee. Its via the speed that you can still 0-death. Brawl has VERY FEW true combos because of how overly strong defense is.

If Melee was Brawl, then that´d be the case. But Melee has actual hitstun. Brawl doesn´t, SSB4 does but its too laggy and slow to perform any decent combo.

No, not really. Those are major changes to the game, and SSB is arguably the only fighting series with changes of this size. Play one Streetfighter, you've played them all. Play one SSB, you've played one SSB.

Even now, there are Melee players are so set in their ways that they won't even try PM because it isn't Melee. The Melee community set itself up for disappointment with Brawl, not matter what it could of been.

 

[victinivcreate1]

No, not really. Those are major changes to the game, and SSB is arguably the only fighting series with changes of this size. Play one Streetfighter, you've played them all. Play one SSB, you've played one SSB.

Even now, there are Melee players are so set in their ways that they won't even try PM because it isn't Melee. The Melee community set itself up for disappointment with Brawl, not matter what it could of been.

Those Melee players who refuse to play other SSB games aren´t high level players. Mostly the low levels scrub players that run amock in Smashboards lol. The 5 Melee Gods all play other games. Most Brawl professionals also play Melee and or PM at a competent level. Then you have Wizzrobe who plays all of them and is beast at all of them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Those Melee players who refuse to play other SSB games aren´t high level players. Mostly the low levels scrub players that run amock in Smashboards lol. The 5 Melee Gods all play other games. Most Brawl professionals also play Melee and or PM at a competent level. Then you have Wizzrobe who plays all of them and is beast at all of them.

How much of the Melee fanbase is "scrubs" then? Because by that logic, all but like three Melee fans I've met must be horribly insecure about their game.

 

[Senario]

No, not really. Those are major changes to the game, and SSB is arguably the only fighting series with changes of this size. Play one Streetfighter, you've played them all. Play one SSB, you've played one SSB.

Even now, there are Melee players are so set in their ways that they won't even try PM because it isn't Melee. The Melee community set itself up for disappointment with Brawl, not matter what it could of been.

What....Most of the people I know who are melee players all play project M on occasion. But maybe I should realize this is you we are talking about and lets be honest, you don't like people who play melee much at all and prefer to slander them with presuppositions of what they do and don't do. And a lot of pro players play melee and Project M.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How much of the Melee fanbase is "scrubs" then? Because by that logic, all but like three Melee fans I've met must be horribly insecure about their game.

There are plenty of good Melee players, but there are plenty of scrubs. Just like every other fighting game. From what I´ve heard and seen, the scrubs are the most vocal about the play Melee only, screw other Smash games, if Fox´s Up B is slightly longer and faster I refuse to play it.

 

[LancerStaff]

What....Most of the people I know who are melee players all play project M on occasion. But maybe I should realize this is you we are talking about and lets be honest, you don't like people who play melee much at all and prefer to slander them with presuppositions of what they do and don't do. And a lot of pro players play melee and Project M.

Isn't my fault most Melee players I've met are jerkwads. I'm not the only one who's seen the elitism many Melee fans associate themselves with, either. Listen to this:

There are plenty of good Melee players, but there are plenty of scrubs. Just like every other fighting game. From what I´ve heard and seen, the scrubs are the most vocal about the play Melee only, screw other Smash games, if Fox´s Up B is slightly longer and faster I refuse to play it.

See, Senario?

Anyway victinivcreate1, then I don't know what to think about the Melee fanbase if they allow so much hate and trolling. Why don't real Melee fans call out these "scrubs"?

 

[Con0rrrr]

I think the game should be similar to Melee in terms of pace, but cut some things that force a skill gap on new players, and replace those things with easy to adapt to mechanics.

For example, L-canceling creates a large skill-gap for new players wanting to get good at Melee. A way to fix this would be to just have all aerials have significantly reduced landing lag, which would also allow players who are extremely good already to focus more on their strategy and reading their opponent rather than worrying about missing an L-cancel.

That's just like, my opinion though man.

 

[pizzapie7]

Anyway victinivcreate1, then I don't know what to think about the Melee fanbase if they allow so much hate and trolling. Why don't real Melee fans call out these "scrubs"?

Because most people have a backbone and just play their game. You see the same thing coming from the stream monsters of SF and Marvel about Melee. Hell, you see the same thing about Melee coming from Brawl players who think the way Smash is played competitively is bad. The lower rungs of every video game community is filled to the brim with insecure and angry people. To take what they say as though it matters, or as though it is the view of the entire community, is foolishness.

And in most cases Melee fans don't call out the scrubs because they hardly interact with them. That kid who gets really angry when you suggest that Brawl isn't actually a terrible game or if you ask to play with items probably isn't actually part of the scene, or if he is he's likely a 2 sets and out kind of player. The community isn't one person or one entity, there's no way to keep everybody in check. It's not about "allowing". I don't think traditional 2D fighters are filled with terrible people because they "allow" so much hate and trolling, why would you think that way about Melee?

 

[Senario]

Isn't my fault most Melee players I've met are jerkwads. I'm not the only one who's seen the elitism many Melee fans associate themselves with, either. Listen to this:



See, Senario?

Anyway victinivcreate1, then I don't know what to think about the Melee fanbase if they allow so much hate and trolling. Why don't real Melee fans call out these "scrubs"?

No I don't, because you having a bad experience with some melee players is not a good enough reason to be a jerk to the whole melee community. Didn't anybody ever tell you two wrongs don't make a right? You hating on melee players is just as bad if not worse than the bad experiences you've had with some melee players. Because you could put a stop to it, you just choose not to and decide to be a jerk to melee players who generally don't really care what you do when you play smash bros.

I don't see what is wrong with his comment, it is his opinion that a particular change is not desired and he doesn't want to play the game. That is fine. What he said is true, there are a lot of people who aren't that good at smash, and there are some that are. That is a truthful statement and has no real problems.

 

[LancerStaff]

Because most people have a backbone and just play their game. You see the same thing coming from the stream monsters of SF and Marvel about Melee. Hell, you see the same thing about Melee coming from Brawl players who think the way Smash is played competitively is bad. The lower rungs of every video game community is filled to the brim with insecure and angry people. To take what they say as though it matters, or as though it is the view of the entire community, is foolishness.

And in most cases Melee fans don't call out the scrubs because they hardly interact with them. That kid who gets really angry when you suggest that Brawl isn't actually a terrible game or if you ask to play with items probably isn't actually part of the scene, or if he is he's likely a 2 sets and out kind of player. The community isn't one person or one entity, there's no way to keep everybody in check. It's not about "allowing". I don't think traditional 2D fighters are filled with terrible people because they "allow" so much hate and trolling, why would you think that way about Melee?

Here, there are real Melee players and these scrubs side-by-side. Never once have a seen one call out the other here. The only time I've ever actually seen it happen is Miiverse of all places. If I were a Melee fan, I certainly wouldn't be letting these people stink up the joint. For other fighting games it simply doesn't come up because Smash's fanbase is so much bigger. The fact that "nice" Melee players are incredibly hard to come by compared to the bad ones isn't helping matters, either.

No I don't, because you having a bad experience with some melee players is not a good enough reason to be a jerk to the whole melee community. Didn't anybody ever tell you two wrongs don't make a right? You hating on melee players is just as bad if not worse than the bad experiences you've had with some melee players. Because you could put a stop to it, you just choose not to and decide to be a jerk to melee players who generally don't really care what you do when you play smash bros.

I don't see what is wrong with his comment, it is his opinion that a particular change is not desired and he doesn't want to play the game. That is fine. What he said is true, there are a lot of people who aren't that good at smash, and there are some that are. That is a truthful statement and has no real problems.

What did I ever do to the Melee community? Can't say I've been nice to Melee players in general, but I can't say I've been particularly nice to many other people on this site, either. I don't really do "nice" on forums, especially when I'm dealing with trolls and people who don't understand they could be wrong. The only reason you don't see me go off on Brawl players is because they're not always whining about minor changes in a game they won't play anyway. I honestly don't care which game you prefer, but often times those that prefer Melee only care about themselves instead of the majority when asking for changes.

 

[pizzapie7]

Here, there are real Melee players and these scrubs side-by-side. Never once have a seen one call out the other here. The only time I've ever actually seen it happen is Miiverse of all places. If I were a Melee fan, I certainly wouldn't be letting these people stink up the joint. For other fighting games it simply doesn't come up because Smash's fanbase is so much bigger. The fact that "nice" Melee players are incredibly hard to come by compared to the bad ones isn't helping matters, either.



What did I ever do to the Melee community? Can't say I've been nice to Melee players in general, but I can't say I've been particularly nice to many other people on this site, either. I don't really do "nice" on forums, especially when I'm dealing with trolls and people who don't understand they could be wrong. The only reason you don't see me go off on Brawl players is because they're not always whining about minor changes in a game they won't play anyway. I honestly don't care which game you prefer, but often times those that prefer Melee only care about themselves instead of the majority when asking for changes.

Where is "here" if I may ask? I'm honestly curious. Your story is atypical and I'm not really sure why you think your local scene represents an entire community. Do you honestly believe a game could be alive over a decade after its release if the people playing it weren't nice? Nobody wants to play a game with mean people. I only fairly recently started playing Smash again, and my local scene is fantastic. Great guys, good fun and competition for everyone.

Everybody cares about themselves when asking for changes. The only reason you think that you're not caring about yourself is because you happen to be the majority. Those guys asking and begging and constantly talking about Waluigi or Ridley or whoever the new flavor of the month character being in Smash are thinking about themselves. The people who complained that Melee is too fast and it makes their little hands hurt trying to wavedash are thinking about themselves. Those that fall asleep during Brawl matches are thinking about themselves. You haven't noticed by now that few people can agree on any one thing, let alone a whole game? Everyone wants the game to pander to them and their tastes the most. It's why people spend all day and night on internet forums arguing about a silly little party game. If anything I've noticed is that the reason those that prefer Melee "only care about themselves" is because in all honesty those changes only matter to them. They're fine-tuning tweaks that only 3% of the people who play the game will notice and maybe a half or so will honestly care. Be honest, do you think a casual player's purchase is leaning on whether or not the lag upon landing during an aerial is cancelled? No, they just want to fight Samus with Mario Pokefloats. Something like that is meaningless to the average player, but could cause huge tidal waves of change to play on a competitive level. So yes, people who prefer Melee do tend to only think about themselves, or about how changes effect them. But the same can be true for any competitive player, regardless of the game. And everyone else does the same thing, just with arguably more (or less) trivial things. But the competitive player is total justified in thinking this way, because that type of a change only effects them and nobody else.

 

[LancerStaff]

Where is "here" if I may ask? I'm honestly curious. Your story is atypical and I'm not really sure why you think your local scene represents an entire community. Do you honestly believe a game could be alive over a decade after its release if the people playing it weren't nice? Nobody wants to play a game with mean people. I only fairly recently started playing Smash again, and my local scene is fantastic. Great guys, good fun and competition for everyone.

Everybody cares about themselves when asking for changes. The only reason you think that you're not caring about yourself is because you happen to be the majority. Those guys asking and begging and constantly talking about Waluigi or Ridley or whoever the new flavor of the month character being in Smash are thinking about themselves. The people who complained that Melee is too fast and it makes their little hands hurt trying to wavedash are thinking about themselves. Those that fall asleep during Brawl matches are thinking about themselves. You haven't noticed by now that few people can agree on any one thing, let alone a whole game? Everyone wants the game to pander to them and their tastes the most. It's why people spend all day and night on internet forums arguing about a silly little party game. If anything I've noticed is that the reason those that prefer Melee "only care about themselves" is because in all honesty those changes only matter to them. They're fine-tuning tweaks that only 3% of the people who play the game will notice and maybe a half or so will honestly care. Be honest, do you think a casual player's purchase is leaning on whether or not the lag upon landing during an aerial is cancelled? No, they just want to fight Samus with Mario Pokefloats. Something like that is meaningless to the average player, but could cause huge tidal waves of change to play on a competitive level. So yes, people who prefer Melee do tend to only think about themselves, or about how changes effect them. But the same can be true for any competitive player, regardless of the game. And everyone else does the same thing, just with arguably more (or less) trivial things. But the competitive player is total justified in thinking this way, because that type of a change only effects them and nobody else.

"Here" as in Smashboards. Don't personally know a single competitive Smasher. Even Smash-Fest was a dud in that regard.

I'm thinking about the majority, and not myself. I don't care how many fancy-shmancy "techs" get into the game, and I will use them just short of ones that create an absolute advantage akin to MK's IDC. But this "depth" they give is often overrated and usually cuts off something different, and the ones that do have a palpable depth are incongruous to SSB's game design. Asking for less landing lag is a complaint I have no objections to because it effects everybody equally, but some will enjoy more then others. Doesn't effect casual players? They don't want to be beat by players with these mystery moves online, and many actively ask for their removal.

And by the way, competitive players are less then one percent of the SSB fanbase.

 

[pizzapie7]

"Here" as in Smashboards. Don't personally know a single competitive Smasher. Even Smash-Fest was a dud in that regard.

So you're judging an entire community's worth of people based off of interaction's you had with them on the internet, when you yourself have admitted to not being very nice on the internet? You do realize that opinions on the internet are tend to be far more polarizing and people act differently behind a veil of anonymity, right? I don't even know how you can form an opinion on a group of people without actually meeting them. If you talked to five Swedes on the internet could you form an opinion of Sweden?

I'm thinking about the majority, and not myself. I don't care how many fancy-shmancy "techs" get into the game, and I will use them just short of ones that create an absolute advantage akin to MK's IDC.

You say majority, I say lowest common denominator. Were the majority unappreciative of Melee or Brawl because of their "fancy-shmancy techs"?

But this "depth" they give is often overrated and usually cuts off something different, and the ones that do have a palpable depth are incongruous to SSB's game design.

Examples?

Asking for less landing lag is a complaint I have no objections to because it effects everybody equally, but some will enjoy more then others. Doesn't effect casual players? They don't want to be beat by players with these mystery moves online, and many actively ask for their removal.

.
This could easily be solved with some sort of a ranking system online, or different lobbies for varying skill levels. This is really a non-issue. It doesn't effect casual players because the vast majority aren't going to come in contact with them in any extended fashion any way. Hell just put them in the tutorial and not keep them hidden. Even more simply I'd simply say that if they don't want to get beat they should get good or not play.

And by the way, competitive players are less then one percent of the SSB fanbase.

I know, I mentioned it. You're actually giving a more generous estimation than I did. I didn't find it extremely relevant but I imagined that you would.

And apparently I need a disclaimer since you take your opinions on groups of people from individual posters on internet forums, but I'm not thinking about any majority or minority when I'm posting, I'm solely posting for myself. These posts are not the posts of the Melee community hivemind (of which I can hardly consider myself a part of) nor do I expect every competitive player to agree with me. My words are mine alone.

 

[Ember Reaper]

I love doing that. Even more fun to do that as Sonic. He FLIES XD. I´ve considered maining Sonic and Falcon just so I can fly across the stage and win matches with exciting, flashy combos. Unfortunately I´m not very good with either lol.

But I cant do that in Smash 4. Why not?

Okay, yeah that I can agree with. The speed thing doesn't make much sense, especially in sonic games, he practically flies when he jumps. In brawl sonic is rather sluggish in the air.

 

[Farorae]

I really don't like comparing smash 4 to melee, brawl or 64. If I wanted to play those games, then I would, Smash 4 should be it's own game. Also I don't understand why people rely so much on the smash 4 demo as evidence I mean it wasn't even finished at the time and it's been made clear that the developers were even playing on a different build.(true it's the only thing we've really had so far but still)
TLDR: smash 4 should be it's own entity that brings new things to the table.

 

[LancerStaff]

So you're judging an entire community's worth of people based off of interaction's you had with them on the internet, when you yourself have admitted to not being very nice on the internet? You do realize that opinions on the internet are tend to be far more polarizing and people act differently behind a veil of anonymity, right? I don't even know how you can form an opinion on a group of people without actually meeting them. If you talked to five Swedes on the internet could you form an opinion of Sweden?


You say majority, I say lowest common denominator. Were the majority unappreciative of Melee or Brawl because of their "fancy-shmancy techs"?


Examples?

.
This could easily be solved with some sort of a ranking system online, or different lobbies for varying skill levels. This is really a non-issue. It doesn't effect casual players because the vast majority aren't going to come in contact with them in any extended fashion any way. Hell just put them in the tutorial and not keep them hidden. Even more simply I'd simply say that if they don't want to get beat they should get good or not play.


I know, I mentioned it. You're actually giving a more generous estimation than I did. I didn't find it extremely relevant but I imagined that you would.

And apparently I need a disclaimer since you take your opinions on groups of people from individual posters on internet forums, but I'm not thinking about any majority or minority when I'm posting, I'm solely posting for myself. These posts are not the posts of the Melee community hivemind (of which I can hardly consider myself a part of) nor do I expect every competitive player to agree with me. My words are mine alone.

I've seen well over three-hundred of these scrubs, and about three "nice" ones. This isn't just in one forum, this is across every SSB forum I've ever read. This isn't a mangled opinion from a quick glance, this is from years of reading Smash fan's opinions and wants.

Smash hasn't had anything significant become widely used on the internet, so it's impossible to say. But if the Smash fanbase's opinion is anything like the Mario Kart fanbase's, you'll see quite the uproar should Wavedashing make it into SSB4. You say it doesn't effect casuals, but it does. What about when casuals learn to use the "technique?" People at almost all levels of play will use it. What about those people who want to play online without glitches? Nope, can't, sorry. So they're removed so that in the end, less people are complaining.

Wavedashing fits both. Ninty-nine times out of one-hundred, people will Wavedash instead of walking towards the opponent. One, normally central, aspect is almost completely ignored because a glitch gives people a better option. And it's an overly difficult imput for the casual-focused party game, don't you think?

Like I said, they are. Especially since there won't be a real ranking system. But that's a whole other debate if you want to go down that road.

You said "They're fine-tuning tweaks that only 3% of the people who play the game will notice and maybe a half or so will honestly care.", remember? Did you mean ".3%" or am I missing something?

 

[Senario]

I've seen well over three-hundred of these scrubs, and about three "nice" ones. This isn't just in one forum, this is across every SSB forum I've ever read. This isn't a mangled opinion from a quick glance, this is from years of reading Smash fan's opinions and wants.

Smash hasn't had anything significant become widely used on the internet, so it's impossible to say. But if the Smash fanbase's opinion is anything like the Mario Kart fanbase's, you'll see quite the uproar should Wavedashing make it into SSB4. You say it doesn't effect casuals, but it does. What about when casuals learn to use the "technique?" People at almost all levels of play will use it. What about those people who want to play online without glitches? Nope, can't, sorry. So they're removed so that in the end, less people are complaining.

Wavedashing fits both. Ninty-nine times out of one-hundred, people will Wavedash instead of walking towards the opponent. One, normally central, aspect is almost completely ignored because a glitch gives people a better option. And it's an overly difficult imput for the casual-focused party game, don't you think?

Like I said, they are. Especially since there won't be a real ranking system. But that's a whole other debate if you want to go down that road.

You said "They're fine-tuning tweaks that only 3% of the people who play the game will notice and maybe a half or so will honestly care.", remember? Did you mean ".3%" or am I missing something?

No, they won't wavedash instead of dashing towards the opponent 99/100 times lol. Go play more games. I'm really tired of people focusing on wavedashing as some kind of boogeyman when really a lot of competitive players are already going halfway with what they want out of the game. And wavedashing isn't typically on that list to begin with.

And the 0.3% is unnecessary. It is a needless attack. Basically in any competitive game you balance from the top down. Competition at very high levels of play knows a lot more about what is good and what is bad and possible ways to fix them. As a developer you don't have to follow their ways to fix them, but you do have to listen and act on what is generally seen as too strong in some way.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, they won't wavedash instead of dashing towards the opponent 99/100 times lol. Go play more games. I'm really tired of people focusing on wavedashing as some kind of boogeyman when really a lot of competitive players are already going halfway with what they want out of the game. And wavedashing isn't typically on that list to begin with.

And the 0.3% is unnecessary. It is a needless attack. Basically in any competitive game you balance from the top down. Competition at very high levels of play knows a lot more about what is good and what is bad and possible ways to fix them. As a developer you don't have to follow their ways to fix them, but you do have to listen and act on what is generally seen as too strong in some way.

In close quarters, yes they do. How specific do I have to be?

Balancing from the top down works in the average fighter, mostly because the basic gameplay is the same. PM Ike is pretty dang OP in FFAs from what I've seen. Sakurai would have more people complaining if he balanced things entirely around 1v1s.

 

[victinivcreate1]

In close quarters, yes they do. How specific do I have to be?

Balancing from the top down works in the average fighter, mostly because the basic gameplay is the same. PM Ike is pretty dang OP in FFAs from what I've seen. Sakurai would have more people complaining if he balanced things entirely around 1v1s.

When was the last time casuals complained about a character(s) and they had a legit point (excluding the obvious MK)?

 

[LancerStaff]

When was the last time casuals complained about a character(s) and they had a legit point (excluding the obvious MK)?

Sonic's Final Smash and the Landmasters, mostly. Probably has something to do with how SSB is balanced around FFA.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

When will these threads ever fooking end?

64 will be 64. Melee will be Melee. Brawl will be Brawl. 3DS will be 2DS. and Wii U will be Wii U.


SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY AND REALIZE THERE IS ONLY EVER GOING TO BE ONE MELEE

 

[LancerStaff]

When will these threads ever fooking end?

64 will be 64. Melee will be Melee. Brawl will be Brawl. 3DS will be 2DS. and Wii U will be Wii U.


SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY AND REALIZE THERE IS ONLY EVER GOING TO BE ONE MELEE

If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then don't.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

If you don't want to participate in the conversation, then don't.

I clearly already am participating in this conversation by stating that it's a stupid hypothetic wish list conversation now that the gameplay has clearly shown that it is not identical to Melee.

to loosely quote the great Jay Z "If you want Melee, buy Melee"

 

[LancerStaff]

I clearly already am participating in this conversation by stating that it's a stupid hypothetic wish list conversation now that the gameplay has clearly shown that it is not identical to Melee.

to loosely quote the great Jay Z "If you want Melee, buy Melee"

That's from an unfinished demo from who knows how long ago. I don't expect SSB4 to be more like Melee, but it could.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I clearly already am participating in this conversation by stating that it's a stupid hypothetic wish list conversation now that the gameplay has clearly shown that it is not identical to Melee.

to loosely quote the great Jay Z "If you want Melee, buy Melee"

Jay Z is not great. He's a Satanist.