Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Chandeelure]

All this debate and discussion is kinda weird considering Meowth has like a 0,1% chance of being the next Pokemon newcomer.

 

[Luminario]

I tried to come up with something that reflected Meowth's cumulative history as a Pokeball Pokemon in Smash games, as a member of Team Rocket in the anime, as the Scratch Cat Pokemon in the Pokemon games, and even as the would-be protagonist of Meowth's Party... but it wasn't satisfactory enough... it was never good enough... never unique enough... and now, not even "mechanically unique" enough. Meta Knight, really!

It almost feels like I'm defending Duck Hunt Dog all over again... back when I first came up with the idea of the person with the NES Zapper shooting from the fourth wall and the dog and duck teaming up like Banjo-Kazooie... only to be told it made no sense or was not unique enough.

At least today I was inspired to come up with the new idea of Meowth having tippers in his claws. That's perfect and makes sense to me. Maybe he could have a tipper in his tail so he could use Iron Tail as an aerial move?

Don't give us this "I tried so hard" stuff, you put forward your points and we gave our criticisms.
Yes, Meowth has enough material to become a fighter, and he could have a Pickup gimmick to help differentiate him from the rest of the roster (hopefully balanced like Kirbeh suggested) or a Marth tipper in some of his attacks, but I think he'll need more than that to get in over more relevant popular pokemon.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd honestly rather the extra mile be done and have the TRio as one collective unit even if the odds of that are even less than Meowth's are alone.

And I don't mean like Pokémon Trainer (though that was a concept I had in the past switching between an Arbok/Weezing pair and Meowth), but like Duck Hunt.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Don't give us this "I tried so hard" stuff, you put forward your points and we gave our criticisms.
Yes, Meowth has enough material to become a fighter, and he could have a Pickup gimmick to help differentiate him from the rest of the roster (hopefully balanced like Kirbeh suggested) or a Marth tipper in some of his attacks, but I think he'll need more than that to get in over more relevant popular pokemon.

He did try pretty hard. I agree that Arcadenik needs to learn to take criticism to improve his ideas. However, the way you're wording this is way too harsh. He put a lot of work into those ideas, and was spitballing them at us with multiple unique ones. Comparing it to Daisy? Sorry, but that's really unfair to even do. Daisy is notable, but bar one main game appearance, is basically a lesser Mario character, not a fairly major character in the series. Let's not pretend Meowth isn't important. He's one of the main villains of the Anime trio, and actually one of the higher ranking Team Rocket members. This is not some small role. He's no bit character. Now, I like Daisy, but she is not in the same "position" he's in. She's unfortunately in the lower tier of characters(I have nothing against her being added, although she's not my personal preference as I feel there's some major ones to add first, but with the Mario series, major characters also happen to be hyper popular, pushed as important, and tend to play major roles in their game appearances. Again, I'm not knocking Daisy. But she's still not on the same level here. That's why you shouldn't have made that comparison).

Also, here's the problem; Will that Pokemon be relevant and popular enough at the time? Let's note that now that we found Female Corrin is the next amiibo, that means we might not even get a Smash port. We may be waiting for a new game a fairly long time from now. Unless Pokemon Stars is real, it wouldn't be surprising if Gen 7 has no Pokemon in Smash(bar Pokeball/Trophies) due to missing the mark. Now, I do think they might get it.

But let's be honest; Why can't it get 2 more Pokemon total? If 7 is beyond bad(which Mario has, and it can certainly at least gain 2 more easily, Toad/Captain Toad and Paper Mario to have some of the most key characters, plus possible other one), which is kind of ridiculous to even say, why is 8 a problem? It's Pokemon. It doesn't even take up that much of the roster overall.

Meowth doesn't really have competition all that much. It's really a matter of implementing him here. He's a major character in the anime as a whole(and as noted, a high ranking member of Team Rocket, and is legitimately incharge of the Trio too, is able to actually command Pokemon, which only one other Pokemon has officially shown this feat, being Mewtwo).

The only point I agree is that a tipper seems like copying a gimmick just to "put the character in". No offense Arcadenik : But you don't need to copy a gimmick. You already have tons of ways to implement Meowth as you've said(and I've mentioned some points on how to improve your ideas). My suggestion is to slowly look at the ideas and combine them into one package. Pickup is not even a bad idea. But it does need to be balanced. He might be a cheater, but that applies more to his personality and actions. The game balance is an out of character thing. If he isn't balanced for play overall, he's less fun to face and becomes unreasonable as a character. We don't need another Brawl Meta Knight or another Hoo Hah issue. I love the idea of him being a thief and a cheater, that said. But let's look at it in a way that could give him an advantage in battle without going too far. If the idea is for him to get some items, they should also have downsides. A bob-omb? Awesome! But it can blow up in his face if he holds it for too long. A beam sword? Can't throw it without disappearing, meaning that if he drops it, he's done. Stuff like this. The cheating idea is great, but a downside is a potential way to balance it. Now, I get what you're saying with the tipper. It makes sense that claws of his hitbox would deal more damage. But why make it a tipper so much as a simple "okay, logic" situation. When Meowth does slash, the tip solely does more damage because that's the part hitting. Anywhere else deals less. The tipper mechanic isn't about damage, but knockback. While similar, this usage makes him better at racking up damage for a final blow.

Another thing to do is make him something akin to how Fox is now; he is all about raising the opponent's damage levels high, but lacks an easy to land critical hit. Meowth works well under this if done right. His little cheating tactic can also make this an excellent strategy. Another way to make Pickup more fair is perhaps balance how it can be used. Like make it an actual move that temporarily is an Aura around him. Think of Shulk's Monado powers. These are temporary boosts. Now, it could even be a two-fold usage. In the air, it acts as the Pickup aura when the button is pressed. On the ground, he performs Thief with a weak attack, and if they're holding an item, he can steal it. Of course, these are just ideas. The overall point is, look for balance in the ideas and try to be original. Combine them to make one balanced package. Meowth can totally be a cheater without becoming an unfair character. He has little honor. The personality works.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, I cannot take the statements that Meowth is the one "in charge" of the TRio seriously.

If any of the three is the "boss", it's the dominant Jessie.


Furthermore, Meowth is a character that if he was going to be in Smash, he would be in Smash already by now.
Instead, he's constantly passed over while other Pokémon characters get in regardless of his long-running role in the anime. There is absolutely no reason to believe that's going to change anytime soon.

Not when the same qualifications given are the exact same as they were before the very first Smash with the same level of "competition", yet he has missed the boat every. single. time. With absolutely no indication he was ever in CONSIDERATION.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ok, I cannot take the statements that Meowth is the one "in charge" of the TRio seriously.

If any of the three is the "boss", it's the dominant Jessie.


Furthermore, Meowth is a character that if he was going to be in Smash, he would be in Smash already by now.
Instead, he's constantly passed over while other Pokémon characters get in regardless of his long-running role in the anime. There is absolutely no reason to believe that's going to change anytime soon.

Not when the same qualifications given are the exact same as they were before the very first Smash with the same level of "competition", yet he has missed the boat every. single. time. With absolutely no indication he was ever in CONSIDERATION.

Actually, it's not. Giovanni specifically left Meowth there to be in charge. Jessie just is more specifically a Trainer so often feels like the leader. But Meowth is the actual leader of the trio overall. That's the only reason he's even there. They literally fall apart without him. Jessie is the main trainer of the group, obviously. James is the heart. That's kind of how they work. Either way, Meowth is definitely a dominant member and still a high ranking member of Team Rocket(being the boss' own Pokemon does put him legitimately above Jessie in terms of rank. Albeit, yes, she does act often like the leader, but she's not the official one. It's more because it's far harder for Meowth to do a lot in the anime when they require a Trainer to do certain things. He doesn't naturally have his own caught Pokemon, due to his own choice, of course, since he clearly knows what he's doing). But the leader thing is probably better debated at another point. My main focus was how he was a high ranking member of TR specifically(and it's just him that's of high rank).

Your other points do stand though. And it's sad too. Meowth is definitely the last of the Gen 1 Pokemon of any real note at this point that is actually a major enough character. My guess is his game being cancelled probably doesn't help Sakurai's view of it. It also doesn't help he has no movies either, or TV specials, etc. So while he's a very major character in the anime, he's not promoted enough for Sakurai to easily look at him as an option. Everybody else was promoted or currently recurring/a major mascot at that point in the anime(Pokemon Trainer and Greninja aside, respectively). I do think if he starts getting promoted and treated like the major character he is in general, he would finally be considered.

As for the Trio idea, there's some issues with it. First, let's take into consideration that "how will you do it" is a key factor. Second, Jessie and James originated in the anime. While Sakurai's "video game characters first" thing was more about 3rd parties, it also is applicable to the ballot(this is when Sakurai pretty much confirmed that there's few exceptions to characters not completely originating in a video game. Like R.O.B. He wanted characters specifically suggested that's from a game first, so that does have relevance now). They probably have no chance of being playable over a character originating in a game(Meowth, Giovanni). That said, could you elaborate on your idea a bit more? Even if are very unlikely, I want to know more~

 

[Delzethin]

Ok, I cannot take the statements that Meowth is the one "in charge" of the TRio seriously.

If any of the three is the "boss", it's the dominant Jessie.


Furthermore, Meowth is a character that if he was going to be in Smash, he would be in Smash already by now.
Instead, he's constantly passed over while other Pokémon characters get in regardless of his long-running role in the anime. There is absolutely no reason to believe that's going to change anytime soon.

Not when the same qualifications given are the exact same as they were before the very first Smash with the same level of "competition", yet he has missed the boat every. single. time. With absolutely no indication he was ever in CONSIDERATION.

That...and there's also the whole thing about Pokémon having a rotating cast. The (non-Alolan) Meowth line was "rotated out" of the spotlight in the games a long time ago, which kinda screws up any attempt at relevance there might be. Combine that with no hint that Meowth was ever considered for any Smash roster at any point (the rumors for Smash 64 aren't actually true), and...it doesn't look good.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think it's stupid to discard the Pick-Up idea or even ignore the absolute potential a RPG Thief-moveset brings because of ArcadeNik coming up with a bonkers application of the idea.

Also lol@the main game fan rule again

I think the RPG Thief Trope fits Meowth to a tee and although it might miss the dance and visual sparkle Sakurai likes, I think it's definitely doable.
Only problem is that it's not Meowth specific, but besides Nabbit there ain't a lot of Nintendo Thieves around (Only one I can think of is Anna but I hope she gets a cross-bow moveset or something)

But I hear y'all thinking "oh no villager has literally this one move that also steals what are we gonna doooooo" and I say yeah fair enough but Villager also has other moves that don't involve sneakily backstabbing, hit-and-run tactics with blinding speed and other utility to disrupt the opponent so yeah different thing.
Greninja ain't a problem either because Meowth ain't a stealthy character per se nor will his moves have awkward hitboxes, he'll be more aggro than that.

Not gonna argue he's likely but he can be cool

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, it's not. Giovanni specifically left Meowth there to be in charge. Jessie just is more specifically a Trainer so often feels like the leader. But Meowth is the actual leader of the trio overall. That's the only reason he's even there. They literally fall apart without him. Jessie is the main trainer of the group, obviously. James is the heart. That's kind of how they work. Either way, Meowth is definitely a dominant member and still a high ranking member of Team Rocket(being the boss' own Pokemon does put him legitimately above Jessie in terms of rank. Albeit, yes, she does act often like the leader, but she's not the official one. It's more because it's far harder for Meowth to do a lot in the anime when they require a Trainer to do certain things. He doesn't naturally have his own caught Pokemon, due to his own choice, of course, since he clearly knows what he's doing). But the leader thing is probably better debated at another point. My main focus was how he was a high ranking member of TR specifically(and it's just him that's of high rank).

When was it ever stated that Giovanni assigned Meowth as their leader?
Furthermore, when has Giovanni ever considered Meowth a high-ranking member of Team Rocket? Or even his Pokémon? After all, Meowth is still a "wild" Pokémon. It was confirmed without a shadow of a doubt when Iris tried to catch him MULTIPLE TIMES when he "joined" the protagonist group in Unova. He had to fight to break free of the Poké Ball each time.
Meowth was Giovanni's servant. An incompetent one at that. IIRC, Giovanni assigned Meowth to be part of Jessie's and James' squad to get him out of his hair.

He certainly tried to act as if he was the leader in early Kanto, but that was dropped rather quickly.

Your other points do stand though. And it's sad too. Meowth is definitely the last of the Gen 1 Pokemon of any real note at this point that is actually a major enough character. My guess is his game being cancelled probably doesn't help Sakurai's view of it. It also doesn't help he has no movies either, or TV specials, etc. So while he's a very major character in the anime, he's not promoted enough for Sakurai to easily look at him as an option. Everybody else was promoted or currently recurring/a major mascot at that point in the anime(Pokemon Trainer and Greninja aside, respectively). I do think if he starts getting promoted and treated like the major character he is in general, he would finally be considered.

While he doesn't typically get something to himself, he does share spotlight with Pikachu when it comes to the Pikachu shorts, especially the more modern ones where the Team Rocket Pokémon are treated as part of the overall group rather than side characters or antagonists.

As for the Trio idea, there's some issues with it. First, let's take into consideration that "how will you do it" is a key factor. Second, Jessie and James originated in the anime. While Sakurai's "video game characters first" thing was more about 3rd parties, it also is applicable to the ballot(this is when Sakurai pretty much confirmed that there's few exceptions to characters not completely originating in a video game. Like R.O.B. He wanted characters specifically suggested that's from a game first, so that does have relevance now). They probably have no chance of being playable over a character originating in a game(Meowth, Giovanni). That said, could you elaborate on your idea a bit more? Even if are very unlikely, I want to know more~

I honestly hadn't given much serious thought to how it would work other than the idea that they work as a unit, primarily using gadgetry and traps with the occasional close quarters cartoon violence and some moves even temporarily summon one of their Pokémon like Arbok or Weezing to do an attack.

I may think of a full style for them eventually, but it won't be in the immediate future. /shrug

 

[Luminario]

He did try pretty hard. I agree that Arcadenik needs to learn to take criticism to improve his ideas. However, the way you're wording this is way too harsh. He put a lot of work into those ideas, and was spitballing them at us with multiple unique ones. Comparing it to Daisy? Sorry, but that's really unfair to even do. Daisy is notable, but bar one main game appearance, is basically a lesser Mario character, not a fairly major character in the series. Let's not pretend Meowth isn't important. He's one of the main villains of the Anime trio, and actually one of the higher ranking Team Rocket members. This is not some small role. He's no bit character. Now, I like Daisy, but she is not in the same "position" he's in. She's unfortunately in the lower tier of characters(I have nothing against her being added, although she's not my personal preference as I feel there's some major ones to add first, but with the Mario series, major characters also happen to be hyper popular, pushed as important, and tend to play major roles in their game appearances. Again, I'm not knocking Daisy. But she's still not on the same level here. That's why you shouldn't have made that comparison).

Also, here's the problem; Will that Pokemon be relevant and popular enough at the time? Let's note that now that we found Female Corrin is the next amiibo, that means we might not even get a Smash port. We may be waiting for a new game a fairly long time from now. Unless Pokemon Stars is real, it wouldn't be surprising if Gen 7 has no Pokemon in Smash(bar Pokeball/Trophies) due to missing the mark. Now, I do think they might get it.

But let's be honest; Why can't it get 2 more Pokemon total? If 7 is beyond bad(which Mario has, and it can certainly at least gain 2 more easily, Toad/Captain Toad and Paper Mario to have some of the most key characters, plus possible other one), which is kind of ridiculous to even say, why is 8 a problem? It's Pokemon. It doesn't even take up that much of the roster overall.

Meowth doesn't really have competition all that much. It's really a matter of implementing him here. He's a major character in the anime as a whole(and as noted, a high ranking member of Team Rocket, and is legitimately incharge of the Trio too, is able to actually command Pokemon, which only one other Pokemon has officially shown this feat, being Mewtwo).

The only point I agree is that a tipper seems like copying a gimmick just to "put the character in". No offense Arcadenik : But you don't need to copy a gimmick. You already have tons of ways to implement Meowth as you've said(and I've mentioned some points on how to improve your ideas). My suggestion is to slowly look at the ideas and combine them into one package. Pickup is not even a bad idea. But it does need to be balanced. He might be a cheater, but that applies more to his personality and actions. The game balance is an out of character thing. If he isn't balanced for play overall, he's less fun to face and becomes unreasonable as a character. We don't need another Brawl Meta Knight or another Hoo Hah issue. I love the idea of him being a thief and a cheater, that said. But let's look at it in a way that could give him an advantage in battle without going too far. If the idea is for him to get some items, they should also have downsides. A bob-omb? Awesome! But it can blow up in his face if he holds it for too long. A beam sword? Can't throw it without disappearing, meaning that if he drops it, he's done. Stuff like this. The cheating idea is great, but a downside is a potential way to balance it. Now, I get what you're saying with the tipper. It makes sense that claws of his hitbox would deal more damage. But why make it a tipper so much as a simple "okay, logic" situation. When Meowth does slash, the tip solely does more damage because that's the part hitting. Anywhere else deals less. The tipper mechanic isn't about damage, but knockback. While similar, this usage makes him better at racking up damage for a final blow.

Another thing to do is make him something akin to how Fox is now; he is all about raising the opponent's damage levels high, but lacks an easy to land critical hit. Meowth works well under this if done right. His little cheating tactic can also make this an excellent strategy. Another way to make Pickup more fair is perhaps balance how it can be used. Like make it an actual move that temporarily is an Aura around him. Think of Shulk's Monado powers. These are temporary boosts. Now, it could even be a two-fold usage. In the air, it acts as the Pickup aura when the button is pressed. On the ground, he performs Thief with a weak attack, and if they're holding an item, he can steal it. Of course, these are just ideas. The overall point is, look for balance in the ideas and try to be original. Combine them to make one balanced package. Meowth can totally be a cheater without becoming an unfair character. He has little honor. The personality works.

Yeah my wording was kinda mean, wasn't it? I didn't mean for it to read as harshly as that.
I used Daisy as a comparison because she's in the same situation of being able to have a unique moveset but it doesn't really fit her, ending up with her having a filler moveset simply to get her in the game instead of going down the more logical route and making her a Peach semi-clone. Unfortunately for Meowth, he doesn't have any counterparts in the game so his moveset would have to be built from the ground up, removing any semi-clone status that could get him in the game with less fuss.
I'm pretty sure that gen 7 is going to be relevant for quite some time still so getting a gen 7 pokemon would be very likely, especially if smash is already in development at this time. The problem for Meowth is that there are multiple gen 7 pokemon as contenders, so if we do get 8 pokemon reps they could very well add two gen 7 pokemon instead.
Also, if we were to get a Thief type archetype in smash it would probably either be attached to someone like Mimikyu or a Thief FE character along the lines of Anna, though Meowth would definitely suit that role too.
I feel that Meowth might have missed his mark to get a reliable shot as a fighter, as Melee was a game that was relevant around the time Meowth was somewhat relevant too. The further we get from gen 1 the less chance he's got to get into smash as a fighter unless something brings him back into the spotlight as a unique candidate.

Only one I can think of is Anna but I hope she gets a cross-bow moveset or something

She can do both. Rider Gwen made an awesome moveset in her thread that shows Anna using many of the weapons in FE, including bows and including a side special Thief attack.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yeah my wording was kinda mean, wasn't it? I didn't mean for it to read as harshly as that.
I used Daisy as a comparison because she's in the same situation of being able to have a unique moveset but it doesn't really fit her, ending up with her having a filler moveset simply to get her in the game instead of going down the more logical route and making her a Peach semi-clone. Unfortunately for Meowth, he doesn't have any counterparts in the game so his moveset would have to be built from the ground up, removing any semi-clone status that could get him in the game with less fuss.
I'm pretty sure that gen 7 is going to be relevant for quite some time still so getting a gen 7 pokemon would be very likely, especially if smash is already in development at this time. The problem for Meowth is that there are multiple gen 7 pokemon as contenders, so if we do get 8 pokemon reps they could very well add two gen 7 pokemon instead.
Also, if we were to get a Thief type archetype in smash it would probably either be attached to someone like Mimikyu or a Thief FE character along the lines of Anna, though Meowth would definitely suit that role too.
I feel that Meowth might have missed his mark to get a reliable shot as a fighter, as Melee was a game that was relevant around the time Meowth was somewhat relevant too. The further we get from gen 1 the less chance he's got to get into smash as a fighter unless something brings him back into the spotlight as a unique candidate.

She can do both. Rider Gwen made an awesome moveset in her thread that shows Anna using many of the weapons in FE, including bows and including a side special Thief attack.

Thief trope does not suit Mimikyu at all because it'd require blitzing along the battlefield alongside the stealth and stealing which I don't see Mimikyu doing.

Anna can do both but with her having access to every weapon alongside having her own bow alongside having her own axe makes it pretty unlikely she'll specifically focus on a thief-trope.

As much as I hate it, there's really no way another FE character gets added AND it's a Thief (I can't see a Thief Lord happening)

So yeah, it's really between Nabbit and Meowth, aside from Anna getting thief-vibes in her crossbow outlaw set

 

[Diddy Kong]

This Meowth thing is getting out of hand... And am not particulary fond of all these forced unique character traits.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Since Meowth is ultimately leading us nowhere given that his supporters and detractors clearly aren't capable of discussing on the same wavelength, I vote we move onto something else.

If the Switch version combines both Wii U and 3DS and features additional content, do you think we'll get a fully-realized Smash Run that allows all four players to be in the same map? I'm personally looking forward to that addition, even if it's only a cheap side-attraction compared to the main game itself. I'd also love if we got new enemies as well. Guardians or even Guardian Scouts from Breath of the Wild would be fun (read: mortifying) additions, for example.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Since Meowth is ultimately leading us nowhere given that his supporters and detractors clearly aren't capable of discussing on the same wavelength, I vote we move onto something else.

If the Switch version combines both Wii U and 3DS and features additional content, do you think we'll get a fully-realized Smash Run that allows all four players to be in the same map? I'm personally looking forward to that addition, even if it's only a cheap side-attraction compared to the main game itself. I'd also love if we got new enemies as well. Guardians or even Guardian Scouts from Breath of the Wild would be fun (read: mortifying) additions, for example.

I'd much prefer them to bring back Adventure or, if they were really after my heart, another Subspace Story Mode. I would enjoy that though, if it was done right. I suppose it is the next best thing to adventure mode.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

If the Switch version combines both Wii U and 3DS and features additional content, do you think we'll get a fully-realized Smash Run that allows all four players to be in the same map? I'm personally looking forward to that addition, even if it's only a cheap side-attraction compared to the main game itself. I'd also love if we got new enemies as well. Guardians or even Guardian Scouts from Breath of the Wild would be fun (read: mortifying) additions, for example.

I'd rather have a new Adventure Mode, but Smash Run would be cool as well. At least it's much better than Smash Tour.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

All this debate and discussion is kinda weird considering Meowth has like a 0,1% chance of being the next Pokemon newcomer.

That, and the discussion isn't even in Meowth's support thread. Frankly, after seeing the past posts, I'd rather keep it as a Poke Ball Pokemon than see a mechanic that would be so imbalanced that we'd have another Brawl Meta Knight scenario on our hands.

 

[_Sheik]

Most of you seem to forget that Jessie & James have made an appearance in a canon Pokémon game (namely, Yellow). While they definitely originated from the anime, their Meowth didn't talk, and some could argue that it was just an one-time cameo/guest appearance, I still suggest you retain that fact.

Some of the other most essential protagonists of the anime have made appearances as well, namely Brock and Misty (not that they have anything going for them in terms of interesting gameplay features, just like the Team wouldn't if we don't consider the ingenious trio option, which isn't applicable to either Brock or Misty). Plus they originated from the games, remember? So while they all have a 0% chance of getting in (Team Rocket included), I'll still treat them like any other speculative character candidates and add that Misty's anime outfit has been acknowledged in the past through her Melee Trophy, which could be a real cool alt skin.

And you know who else got an anime alt skin in Smash?

Nobody. But Cloud did get an outfit that originated in a movie and was re-used in later video games such as Dirge of Cerberus (not sure on that one) and Kingdom Hearts.

In the case of Jessie, James and (duh) Meowth, the outfits are identical in the anime and in Pokémon Yellow.

So yeah, the influence of anime - as in, official animated adaptations of existing video games - or should I say, "side media" in Smash is ambiguous at best. The Pokemon trophies alone show that even if it's very rare, anime can be acknowledged.

@GoldenYuiitusin I dropped the anime a long time ago but I would actually love to see Jessie, James & Meowth as a Trio fighter. It actually seems more doable than Tri-Force Heroes (athough those three are just as unlikely) as far as trio fighters go. Maybe we can chat about it at one point and establish a glorious moveset and launch a support thread to showcase it? We can shed some light on the world thanks to your brilliant idea, pal!

Thief trope does not suit Mimikyu at all because it'd require blitzing along the battlefield alongside the stealth and stealing which I don't see Mimikyu doing.

Anna can do both but with her having access to every weapon alongside having her own bow alongside having her own axe makes it pretty unlikely she'll specifically focus on a thief-trope.

As much as I hate it, there's really no way another FE character gets added AND it's a Thief (I can't see a Thief Lord happening)

So yeah, it's really between Nabbit and Meowth, aside from Anna getting thief-vibes in her crossbow outlaw set

Sothe did count as a Thief Lord of sorts, he can't be discarded as a main character seeing as how IS kept shoehorning him into our faces during the entirety of Radiant Dawn and his promotion was plot-locked while Heather could promote just fine on her own. But I'll agree that he doesn't have much of a potential and is far from being as iconic as Anna.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

So a little speculation about Bomberman. He is far more likely now than I think he ever was during Smash 4 speculation and that's pretty cool. However, I don't think he'll be the next third party to make it. I think that will go to Rayman due to him even having his own set of Trophies in Smash Wii U. Plus, he'll have a game out before the next Smash and Ubisoft may even have some other projects in the pipe with Nintendo. (Rabbids X Mario actually a thing? Beyond Good & Evil 2?) After Rayman though I think Bomberman might be there next obvious candidate. Also, I really don't think that they would add Bomberman without also adding Snake due to his Veteran status. Which is even more exciting for me. As much as I love Simon Belmont I would be more than contempt with Snake and Bomberman.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I'd love if we got 10+ new characters.....but to be honest I feel like something in the range of 5-6 is more likely if it's just going to be an updated version. (along with new stages and modes)

That said it could go over 10 if they decide to have dlc characters. (on top of the initial 5-6 characters at launch) It's hard to say what they'll do in terms of dlc. (or if they'll do it at all....aren't they doing another round of dlc for Mario Kart Deluxe?)

 

[Yellowlord]

I'd love if we got 10+ new characters.....but to be honest I feel like something in the range of 5-6 is more likely if it's just going to be an updated version. (along with new stages and modes)

That said it could go over 10 if they decide to have dlc characters. (on top of the initial 5-6 characters at launch) It's hard to say what they'll do in terms of dlc.

I want this to happen; Smash 4 has so much potential even after well over 2 years and its going to be around for at least 3-4 more; why not implement even more characters? And of course, stages and modes are important (SS2 and Smash Run please).

 

[Luminario]

If the Switch version combines both Wii U and 3DS and features additional content, do you think we'll get a fully-realized Smash Run that allows all four players to be in the same map? I'm personally looking forward to that addition, even if it's only a cheap side-attraction compared to the main game itself. I'd also love if we got new enemies as well. Guardians or even Guardian Scouts from Breath of the Wild would be fun (read: mortifying) additions, for example.

Getting Smash Run on a smash other than 3DS would be great, or bring back Adventure like others are saying. As long as we leave the travesty that is Smash Tour behind or at least severely change how its played.

Thief trope does not suit Mimikyu at all because it'd require blitzing along the battlefield alongside the stealth and stealing which I don't see Mimikyu doing.

Anna can do both but with her having access to every weapon alongside having her own bow alongside having her own axe makes it pretty unlikely she'll specifically focus on a thief-trope.

As much as I hate it, there's really no way another FE character gets added AND it's a Thief (I can't see a Thief Lord happening)

So yeah, it's really between Nabbit and Meowth, aside from Anna getting thief-vibes in her crossbow outlaw set

Isn't Mimikyu like deceptively fast? I've always though a Thief-like attack would be implemented as a side B Fox Illusion type attack where you steal the item held by the opponent you hit. I suppose "Thief trope" was bad wording on my part in regards to Mimikyu, as I was thinking it could simply have the move Thief. Anna could have access to a vast array of weapons AND focus on the thief trope, they just gotta make her attack quick and weak with like a single strong axe smash attack or something.

 

[Deleted member]

@GoldenYuiitusin I dropped the anime a long time ago but I would actually love to see Jessie, James & Meowth as a Trio fighter. It actually seems more doable than Tri-Force Heroes (athough those three are just as unlikely) as far as trio fighters go. Maybe we can chat about it at one point and establish a glorious moveset and launch a support thread to showcase it? We can shed some light on the world thanks to your brilliant idea, pal!

Eh, sure. Wynaut?

Wait, dammit, wrong Pokémon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I honestly hadn't given much serious thought to how it would work other than the idea that they work as a unit, primarily using gadgetry and traps with the occasional close quarters cartoon violence and some moves even temporarily summon one of their Pokémon like Arbok or Weezing to do an attack.

I may think of a full style for them eventually, but it won't be in the immediate future. /shrug

Too bad. Would be kind of neat.

Anyway, you were kind of missing the only main point I had about Meowth, that he's an important member of TR. I won't get into whether he feels like the leader or not, since it's not worth the research at this point. He stands out on his own, which is all I'm ultimately getting at. Doesn't really matter whether I was mistaken or not since it's not really that relevant anyway. I looked at him and saw the true leader of the trio. You feel that wasn't the case. Let's just agree to disagree and not worry about it.

Yeah my wording was kinda mean, wasn't it? I didn't mean for it to read as harshly as that.
I used Daisy as a comparison because she's in the same situation of being able to have a unique moveset but it doesn't really fit her, ending up with her having a filler moveset simply to get her in the game instead of going down the more logical route and making her a Peach semi-clone. Unfortunately for Meowth, he doesn't have any counterparts in the game so his moveset would have to be built from the ground up, removing any semi-clone status that could get him in the game with less fuss.
I'm pretty sure that gen 7 is going to be relevant for quite some time still so getting a gen 7 pokemon would be very likely, especially if smash is already in development at this time. The problem for Meowth is that there are multiple gen 7 pokemon as contenders, so if we do get 8 pokemon reps they could very well add two gen 7 pokemon instead.
Also, if we were to get a Thief type archetype in smash it would probably either be attached to someone like Mimikyu or a Thief FE character along the lines of Anna, though Meowth would definitely suit that role too.
I feel that Meowth might have missed his mark to get a reliable shot as a fighter, as Melee was a game that was relevant around the time Meowth was somewhat relevant too. The further we get from gen 1 the less chance he's got to get into smash as a fighter unless something brings him back into the spotlight as a unique candidate.

Again, you're missing the fact he does do stuff, in the anime, where specifically he is still a dominant and always relevant character. There is no reason for Sakurai to look to the games for a moveset when Meowth isn't halfway relevant in them.

That's the only place that matters for how to implement Meowth. That's where he's relevant, as he and Pikachu are two major Pokemon in the show.

Gen 1 is pretty much relevant due to its iconic status as games, and we've never gotten more than 1 Pokemon from any Generation but Gen 1. It's very unlikely to get two Gen 7 Pokemon. It's already hard enough to figure out which one is the most relevant. At the moment, yes, we'd probably just get 1 Pokemon total, but that's mostly due to Sakurai trying to "not overrepresent a series", a philosophy he does legit have(he even was worried putting Corrin in would overrepresent Fire Emblem, but his crew convinced him it was a good timing and sometimes it's okay when certain situations call for it). There's no competition ultimately at this point because realistically, we'd get 1 Gen 7 Pokemon at best. Also, the anime lasting a while won't make the Generation relevant in the same way as getting another game itself. Keep in mind Greninja was added when development was underway. Pokemon Trainer is pretty much the only one that didn't get in to current relevance. The reason we get so many Gen 1 Pokemon at times is that they tend to show relevance far more often due to the Anime alone. That and popularity were all Jigglypuff had. Mewtwo had his latest movie.

As noted, yes, Meowth has not shown to be considered. This is a very good point against him, but it doesn't mean that cannot change. Being Sakurai looks more to movies and the anime for relevance than anything else except under very special conditions(and Greninja is the only definite exception, but as I stated Pokemon Trainer may(key term being may) have been somewhat influenced by the anime. There's an implication as soon as Smash 4's Pokemon Trainer trophy outright mentions Ash. But the further point is more proof that the anime matters just as much).

The other issue is Meowth has a definite style of play in the anime, so it's not trying to shoehorn in moves. He has an actual way to play. Daisy doesn't have nearly that much going for her. Nothing much more than her voice, which is... kind of it, honestly. Love the character, but she's a blank slate when it comes to a moveset at this point. Meowth has tons of moves it can learn, is well known for its signature Pay Day(that's one more key move than Daisy ever had). Your comparison fell flat because you basically compared a blank slate to someone who knowingly has fought before. I did miss that you meant something other than their importance, but it doesn't change that the comparison is still very mismatched. Realistically, Daisy has as much as Captain Falcon had for moveset options, but one is a main character, which is obviously why the comparison is a bit off(but moveset-wise, they're legit the same). To finish, let's just say that Daisy's key chance for a moveset is where Sakurai can find an interesting influence to work with.

Most of you seem to forget that Jessie & James have made an appearance in a canon Pokémon game (namely, Yellow). While they definitely originated from the anime, their Meowth didn't talk, and some could argue that it was just an one-time cameo/guest appearance, I still suggest you retain that fact.

Some of the other most essential protagonists of the anime have made appearances as well, namely Brock and Misty (not that they have anything going for them in terms of interesting gameplay features, just like the Team wouldn't if we don't consider the ingenious trio option, which isn't applicable to either Brock or Misty). Plus they originated from the games, remember? So while they all have a 0% chance of getting in (Team Rocket included), I'll still treat them like any other speculative character candidates and add that Misty's anime outfit has been acknowledged in the past through her Melee Trophy, which could be a real cool alt skin.

And you know who else got an anime alt skin in Smash?

Nobody. But Cloud did get an outfit that originated in a movie and was re-used in later video games such as Dirge of Cerberus (not sure on that one) and Kingdom Hearts.

In the case of Jessie, James and (duh) Meowth, the outfits are identical in the anime and in Pokémon Yellow.

So yeah, the influence of anime - as in, official animated adaptations of existing video games - or should I say, "side media" in Smash is ambiguous at best. The Pokemon trophies alone show that even if it's very rare, anime can be acknowledged

Anime has a lot of influence in moveset creation. We don't see many direct references because of many reasons. A trophy is easy to get. They can't get the music due to the fact that A) Copyright reasons making it hard and B) Not everybody watches the anime either. Smash is a celebration of video games, after all. The anime has enough influence in other ways, and of course sometimes it's a good option other than just a specific character choice. A reason why it often is used to help figure out a moveset design is the Pokemon in question actually has a notable playstyle in the anime. We see what it does onscreen, without some preset animation that tons of Pokemon can do. We know its signature moves, its full moveset, how it moves, etc. This is why it's a perfect inspiration to make a moveset out of. Pikachu, Lucario, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, somewhat on Charizard, and Pichu technically(being a clone) all fight based upon their anime counterparts. As I noted before, Jigglypuff was also a moveset swap of a ton of Kirby's normal moves(which explains how easily she got in. Easy to add compared to Mewtwo who is clearly more unique), but still happens to fight like in the anime. This case is a happy coincidence, but the rest still show their anime style. This is pretty much the only way for Meowth to even get in, using an anime style moveset. He doesn't have more than one signature move in the games, nor an obvious moveset to work with there.

As for your costume point, that's probably because they don't want non-video game characters playable(even cameos). However, Sonic does have a costume resembling an anime only thing, Dark Sonic from Sonic X(which was pretty popular at the time, so it makes sense). Donkey Kong also has a costume based upon a character from the old cartoon. Luigi also has a costume based upon an animated Mario production. One of Bowser's costumes heavily resemble his colors in the old Super Mario Bros. Super Show cartoon. Pit also has a costume in Brawl and separately in 4 that resemble his Captain N appearances(which is odd since that show did very poorly for good reasons). These are subtle or at the very least most wouldn't know them(hence why we rarely see costumes based upon the shows). Point being, that yes, anime costumes do show up, but they're not beyond blatant in any case. There could be many reasons, but other than the fact Sakurai doesn't want non-video game characters in(which explains why they're referencing, not alts), we don't know why.

However, all of those appearances are not of directly playable characters. Jessie and James are not video game characters first, which was confirmed to now matter thanks to the Ballot. They aren't exceptions like R.O.B. was due to him being a toy, but key to Nintendo as a whole. They're just dominant recurring characters. This means that while giving them Trophies is very logical, they fail to meet the key standard for being playable. This is pretty much their problem. Meowth isn't the same issue in comparison. I do agree that he doesn't have the same major push or relevance as others, though. He's the last of the important Gen 1 Pokemon to never be playable(that are either major characters in the anime or games, or at least is feasible due to having an easy moveset and signature fighting style).

 

[Luminario]

Too bad. Would be kind of neat.

Anyway, you were kind of missing the only main point I had about Meowth, that he's an important member of TR. I won't get into whether he feels like the leader or not, since it's not worth the research at this point. He stands out on his own, which is all I'm ultimately getting at. Doesn't really matter whether I was mistaken or not since it's not really that relevant anyway. I looked at him and saw the true leader of the trio. You feel that wasn't the case. Let's just agree to disagree and not worry about it.


Again, you're missing the fact he does do stuff, in the anime, where specifically he is still a dominant and always relevant character. There is no reason for Sakurai to look to the games for a moveset when Meowth isn't halfway relevant in them.

That's the only place that matters for how to implement Meowth. That's where he's relevant, as he and Pikachu are two major Pokemon in the show.

Gen 1 is pretty much relevant due to its iconic status as games, and we've never gotten more than 1 Pokemon from any Generation but Gen 1. It's very unlikely to get two Gen 7 Pokemon. It's already hard enough to figure out which one is the most relevant. At the moment, yes, we'd probably just get 1 Pokemon total, but that's mostly due to Sakurai trying to "not overrepresent a series", a philosophy he does legit have(he even was worried putting Corrin in would overrepresent Fire Emblem, but his crew convinced him it was a good timing and sometimes it's okay when certain situations call for it). There's no competition ultimately at this point because realistically, we'd get 1 Gen 7 Pokemon at best. Also, the anime lasting a while won't make the Generation relevant in the same way as getting another game itself. Keep in mind Greninja was added when development was underway. Pokemon Trainer is pretty much the only one that didn't get in to current relevance. The reason we get so many Gen 1 Pokemon at times is that they tend to show relevance far more often due to the Anime alone. That and popularity were all Jigglypuff had. Mewtwo had his latest movie.

As noted, yes, Meowth has not shown to be considered. This is a very good point against him, but it doesn't mean that cannot change. Being Sakurai looks more to movies and the anime for relevance than anything else except under very special conditions(and Greninja is the only definite exception, but as I stated Pokemon Trainer may(key term being may) have been somewhat influenced by the anime. There's an implication as soon as Smash 4's Pokemon Trainer trophy outright mentions Ash. But the further point is more proof that the anime matters just as much).

The other issue is Meowth has a definite style of play in the anime, so it's not trying to shoehorn in moves. He has an actual way to play. Daisy doesn't have nearly that much going for her. Nothing much more than her voice, which is... kind of it, honestly. Love the character, but she's a blank slate when it comes to a moveset at this point. Meowth has tons of moves it can learn, is well known for its signature Pay Day(that's one more key move than Daisy ever had). Your comparison fell flat because you basically compared a blank slate to someone who knowingly has fought before. I did miss that you meant something other than their importance, but it doesn't change that the comparison is still very mismatched. Realistically, Daisy has as much as Captain Falcon had for moveset options, but one is a main character, which is obviously why the comparison is a bit off(but moveset-wise, they're legit the same). To finish, let's just say that Daisy's key chance for a moveset is where Sakurai can find an interesting influence to work with.


Anime has a lot of influence in moveset creation. We don't see many direct references because of many reasons. A trophy is easy to get. They can't get the music due to the fact that A) Copyright reasons making it hard and B) Not everybody watches the anime either. Smash is a celebration of video games, after all. The anime has enough influence in other ways, and of course sometimes it's a good option other than just a specific character choice. A reason why it often is used to help figure out a moveset design is the Pokemon in question actually has a notable playstyle in the anime. We see what it does onscreen, without some preset animation that tons of Pokemon can do. We know its signature moves, its full moveset, how it moves, etc. This is why it's a perfect inspiration to make a moveset out of. Pikachu, Lucario, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, somewhat on Charizard, and Pichu technically(being a clone) all fight based upon their anime counterparts. As I noted before, Jigglypuff was also a moveset swap of a ton of Kirby's normal moves(which explains how easily she got in. Easy to add compared to Mewtwo who is clearly more unique), but still happens to fight like in the anime. This case is a happy coincidence, but the rest still show their anime style. This is pretty much the only way for Meowth to even get in, using an anime style moveset. He doesn't have more than one signature move in the games, nor an obvious moveset to work with there.

As for your costume point, that's probably because they don't want non-video game characters playable(even cameos). However, Sonic does have a costume resembling an anime only thing, Dark Sonic from Sonic X(which was pretty popular at the time, so it makes sense). Donkey Kong also has a costume based upon a character from the old cartoon. Luigi also has a costume based upon an animated Mario production. One of Bowser's costumes heavily resemble his colors in the old Super Mario Bros. Super Show cartoon. Pit also has a costume in Brawl and separately in 4 that resemble his Captain N appearances(which is odd since that show did very poorly for good reasons). These are subtle or at the very least most wouldn't know them(hence why we rarely see costumes based upon the shows). Point being, that yes, anime costumes do show up, but they're not beyond blatant in any case. There could be many reasons, but other than the fact Sakurai doesn't want non-video game characters in(which explains why they're referencing, not alts), we don't know why.

However, all of those appearances are not of directly playable characters. Jessie and James are not video game characters first, which was confirmed to now matter thanks to the Ballot. They aren't exceptions like R.O.B. was due to him being a toy, but key to Nintendo as a whole. They're just dominant recurring characters. This means that while giving them Trophies is very logical, they fail to meet the key standard for being playable. This is pretty much their problem. Meowth isn't the same issue in comparison. I do agree that he doesn't have the same major push or relevance as others, though. He's the last of the important Gen 1 Pokemon to never be playable(that are either major characters in the anime or games, or at least is feasible due to having an easy moveset and signature fighting style).

Ohhhh now I get cha~
I feel like this discussion is going to go round and round as we debate whether or not a character can get in with inspiration and relevancy primarily from the anime at this point in time. Referencing the anime is one thing, but this is about bringing more from the anime than the games itself. I don't doubt that Meowth would be able to have something to set him apart from the other fighters (he could even reference other cat-like abilities from other games like Cat Mario's attacks) but whether or not Sakurai is going to pull directly from the anime for someone like Meowth is anyone's guess at this point. As long as we get the vastly superior Alolan Meowth as an alt I'm all good.

 

[Deleted member]

Arguably, Meowth is the same case of "not a game original", at least if we want to go with him being based off the TRio Meowth in Smash. Much like the not-as iconic talking Clefairy from an older manga series back when Clefairy was supposed to be the mascot.

Outside of the Melee trophy which references the scrapped Meowth's Party thing, every reference to Meowth in Smash is of a regular Meowth from the games. It doesn't talk and it uses Pay Day, a move that TRio Meowth is specifically unable to do.

Mewtwo and Lucario may be clearly inspired by their anime counterparts with their ability to speak and their characterization, but outside of that, they have nothing about them that is SPECIFIC to the anime (not even Mewtwo's Shadow Ball counts here, as while that was his signature move in the movie, it's still something the species could be taught in the games.)
And in Smash 4, the ability to achieve Mega Evolution was something that did not exist in their appearances, with a different anime Mewtwo being the one known for it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ohhhh now I get cha~
I feel like this discussion is going to go round and round as we debate whether or not a character can get in with inspiration and relevancy primarily from the anime at this point in time. Referencing the anime is one thing, but this is about bringing more from the anime than the games itself. I don't doubt that Meowth would be able to have something to set him apart from the other fighters (he could even reference other cat-like abilities from other games like Cat Mario's attacks) but whether or not Sakurai is going to pull directly from the anime for someone like Meowth is anyone's guess at this point. As long as we get the vastly superior Alolan Meowth as an alt I'm all good.

Lucario's moveset was pretty much almost entirely anime-based. So yes, I could see Sakurai pulling specifically from the anime with little anything else. You should give the anime more credit, it's huge in how much influence it has for movesets.

That said, it's more a question of whether Sakurai thinks of using Meowth. We know where he would get a proper moveset from, and it's from a work Meowth knowingly fought in. So either the Manga or the Anime in general. Anywhere else is just fishing for options, instead of taking the one that already works.

Totally agreed on the Alolan Meowth alt. I think it likely would be more a color scheme instead, since making it a full alt is kind of pointless in this case(that means an overall different model compared to just throwing on a bit more paint, and it has its own stances/characterization. It seems pointless to do it for just one costume, when the rest would have to be other interesting Cat Pokemon. Just colors alone is probably the most logical in this case). That's a lot more animation for the same Pokemon. That, and Meowth himself can't just "change" colors whenever he wants. He's a natural Kanto Pokemon. It makes more sense to have a color scheme. Being that there's tons of cat Pokemon, the costumes should be somewhat easy. One resembling Persian, Alolan Meowth, Alolan Persian, and then you have 4 other ones at minimum. Pretty much pick whatever colors seem neat. Espurr, for instance.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Lucario's moveset was pretty much almost entirely anime-based. So yes, I could see Sakurai pulling specifically from the anime with little anything else. You should give the anime more credit, it's huge in how much influence it has for movesets.

You're absolutely right, Lucario would have zero basis for a moveset without the anime!

I love Lucario's side-smash, Power-Up Punch!
And his down special, Swords Dance!
Or his side special, Vacuum Wave, just like various Lucario and Riolu did in the show!
That Bone Rush jab-combo was a good way of giving him some much needed range.
And his back throw, Circle Throw? Probably my favorite in the game.
Don't forget about Copycat, which was a core mechanic to his competitive gameplay and a fantastic way to make use of a taun--

Wait a minute. Do you remember when Lucario used Extreme Speed, Double Team or Aura Storm in the anime? Because I sure don't.

...Oh well! It's a good thing he made use out of most of those other moves from the anime, right? Plus, his exclusive ability Power of Aura that works just like Swarm and Blaze always played a key part in every Lucario fight in the show. Haha! I mean, it's not like we can just say Lucario's moveset came from the anime if didn't, right? Aha. That'd be so silly! Haha.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucario's moveset was pretty much almost entirely anime-based. So yes, I could see Sakurai pulling specifically from the anime with little anything else. You should give the anime more credit, it's huge in how much influence it has for movesets.

Unless you mean that the moveset was designed with only the movie as a reference since Lucario had yet to be featured in Diamond and Pearl when he was decided for Smash, this isn't really true.

Other than Aura Sphere, which was taken from the movie, the way Lucario fights was practically original to Smash merely based on the concept Lucario taps into mystical Aura energy.
Even how it works by being stronger the more damage Lucario has taken is exclusive to Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Unless you mean that the moveset was designed with only the movie as a reference since Lucario had yet to be featured in Diamond and Pearl when he was decided for Smash, this isn't really true.

Other than Aura Sphere, which was taken from the movie, the way Lucario fights was practically original to Smash merely based on the concept Lucario taps into mystical Aura energy.
Even how it works by being stronger the more damage Lucario has taken is exclusive to Smash.

It does make sense, being his has zero references otherwise. His overall fighting style is still identical to the anime nonetheless. Of course a few moves were made intentionally for Smash, but that's normal. See: Koopa Claw.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So does Sakurai utilise and give a character a cohesive and fitting moveset through certain tropes that fit the character thematically instead of looking at in-game moves and pushing them together?

Good to know

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

It does make sense, being his has zero references otherwise. His overall fighting style is still identical to the anime nonetheless. Of course a few moves were made intentionally for Smash, but that's normal. See: Koopa Claw.

Yup, only a few of his moves were exclusive to Smash! Most of the moveset was straight from the anime!

Because! Don't forget, the anime specifically gave us Aura Sphere! And Force Palm! And...!

...And...

...

...???

Which episode was the one where he shot clouds of aura at his opponent again? The moves that specifically weren't Aura Sphere, I mean. I'm a little rustic on the show, sorry.

 

[Deleted member]

It does make sense, being his has zero references otherwise. His overall fighting style is still identical to the anime nonetheless. Of course a few moves were made intentionally for Smash, but that's normal. See: Koopa Claw.

Not really. Pokken reflects how the Lucario species fights in the anime more than Smash does.

As for movie Lucario, the prime source of inspiration for Smash.....considering his main method of fighting was to spam Aura Spheres as opposed to direct combat using refined martial arts augmented with the "Power of Aura" like Smash portrays him....
....yeah, to say the fighting style is identical to the anime is inaccurate.

 

[Kirbeh]

Lucario's moveset was pretty much almost entirely anime-based. So yes, I could see Sakurai pulling specifically from the anime with little anything else. You should give the anime more credit, it's huge in how much influence it has for movesets.

That said, it's more a question of whether Sakurai thinks of using Meowth. We know where he would get a proper moveset from, and it's from a work Meowth knowingly fought in. So either the Manga or the Anime in general. Anywhere else is just fishing for options, instead of taking the one that already works.

Totally agreed on the Alolan Meowth alt. I think it likely would be more a color scheme instead, since making it a full alt is kind of pointless in this case(that means an overall different model compared to just throwing on a bit more paint, and it has its own stances/characterization. It seems pointless to do it for just one costume, when the rest would have to be other interesting Cat Pokemon. Just colors alone is probably the most logical in this case). That's a lot more animation for the same Pokemon. That, and Meowth himself can't just "change" colors whenever he wants. He's a natural Kanto Pokemon. It makes more sense to have a color scheme. Being that there's tons of cat Pokemon, the costumes should be somewhat easy. One resembling Persian, Alolan Meowth, Alolan Persian, and then you have 4 other ones at minimum. Pretty much pick whatever colors seem neat. Espurr, for instance.

I'm going to have to contest this point as the only moves the Lucario from Lucario and the Mystery of Mew used were Aura Sphere and Detect. Aura Sphere began as Lucario's signature move, so of it course it was going to have it, and Detect wasn't used at all. Plus you need to remember that all of this was still taken from the games to begin with.

As I've said before, that's not to say the anime has no influence, perhaps I didn't word it properly, but I did say they use a blend. What the anime primarily influences though is how the character animates, and how they sound. And of course the anime is going to be their primary source for this because the games have very little animation (in terms of the Pokemon themselves, obviously there's tons of animations for the moves), and the only sounds Pokemon make are their cries which would not translate as well as the voice work used in the anime.

Yes characters with major anime/movie roles are generally chosen, but you have to keep in mind that both teams work closely together. The game devs are the one's that either pushed for these, or had to approve of characters like Mewtwo and Lucario to receive movies, etc. They work in tandem, but the game devs still have a bigger influence. They're the ones the anime's team has to answer to when deciding how to portray Pokemon.

Elements of Mewtwo that were likely pulled from his movie potrayal:
-The voice work
-Use of Shadow Ball as a signature move via Neutral Special
-General animation/mannerisms
-General references via flavor text in Smash 4, such as the "Mewtwo Strikes Back" reveal, or "A Legend Reawakens" title for the Boxing Ring

Elements of Lucario that were likely pulled from movie portrayal:
-Voice work/telepathy
-General animation such as walking, running, and jumping

As for the anime series, I doubt they pulled from there, as Mewtwo doesn't make any anime appearances outside of films iirc, and Lucario would not appear in the anime again until February 2008, about a week after Brawl's release.

 

[Curious Villager]

Arguably, Meowth is the same case of "not a game original", at least if we want to go with him being based off the TRio Meowth in Smash. Much like the not-as iconic talking Clefairy from an older manga series back when Clefairy was supposed to be the mascot.

Outside of the Melee trophy which references the scrapped Meowth's Party thing, every reference to Meowth in Smash is of a regular Meowth from the games. It doesn't talk and it uses Pay Day, a move that TRio Meowth is specifically unable to do.

Mewtwo and Lucario may be clearly inspired by their anime counterparts with their ability to speak and their characterization, but outside of that, they have nothing about them that is SPECIFIC to the anime (not even Mewtwo's Shadow Ball counts here, as while that was his signature move in the movie, it's still something the species could be taught in the games.)
And in Smash 4, the ability to achieve Mega Evolution was something that did not exist in their appearances, with a different anime Mewtwo being the one known for it.

Didn't Mewtwo's ability to float around come from the movie as well? Then again, I never read the manga so I don't know if he did that there too.

He did run around in pokemon Origins which was trying to be a bit more faithful to the games I believe, but then again, considering how odd Mewtwo looks when physically walking/running around (at least imo) I guess him floating around due to his psychic type abilities was more or less a no brainer regardless of the anime/movie....

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So does Sakurai utilise and give a character a cohesive and fitting moveset through certain tropes that fit the character thematically instead of looking at in-game moves and pushing them together?

Good to know

Sometimes. It only works well for Pokemon because he has a proper source of their fighting skills outside of the games alone. He can't do this for all Pokemon, though. Squirtle doesn't really have a blatant source of inspiration like Charizard does for his moves. Or Lucario. Etc. It's because it wasn't used often enough with an onscreen fighting style.

When it comes to Sakurai, he wants to capture something specific about each character. Either using them as an excuse to push game mechanics(see: Robin) or to capture their personality(Ganondorf captures this well, despite being a clone). He often tries to find a gimmick for each option. Overall, movesets aren't about game accuracy so much as thematic accuracy. Probably the only legit exception at this point is Wii Fit Trainer, but her/his point was to be a unique character nobody seriously thought of(one person predicted it, but it wasn't a serious thought anyway).

Yup, only a few of his moves were exclusive to Smash! Most of the moveset was straight from the anime!

Because! Don't forget, the anime specifically gave us Aura Sphere! And Force Palm! And...!

...And...

...

...???

Which episode was the one where he shot clouds of aura at his opponent again? The moves that specifically weren't Aura Sphere, I mean. I'm a little rustic on the show, sorry.

And he uses Bone Rush based upon the anime. Double Team is specific to how the anime uses it, which is a distraction so they can get in a sneak attack(it's pretty much a Counter). The basis of the aura ability is that he's a severe master of it and can use it in unique ways the game never did. Aura is unique in the video games. It's also separate in the anime/movie(it's nothing more than the ability to feel others). And in Smash, it's nothing more than a power-up bonus.

Look, please calm down. You're clearly debating with a hot head. I know you dislike that the anime is important to Smash, but you're aggressively finding ways to make your point while ignoring that it's still an important factor. Lucario's fighting style is based upon the anime. A lot of his moves are from the game, but the way he fights is still anime-based. These are not the same thing.

Not really. Pokken reflects how the Lucario species fights in the anime more than Smash does.

As for movie Lucario, the prime source of inspiration for Smash.....considering his main method of fighting was to spam Aura Spheres as opposed to direct combat using refined martial arts augmented with the "Power of Aura" like Smash portrays him....
....yeah, to say the fighting style is identical to the anime is inaccurate.

I meant to say based upon, not identical. Pokken does it better indeed. But Lucario's overall movements and constant ability to keep going as well as increasing power via his aura is pretty much anime-based. Although this is a bit more of a case of a "the Pokemon never gives up in the anime and finds ways to come back" , specifically how his Aura works. That's an interpretation of his personality, pretty accurately too.

I'm going to have to contest this point as the only moves the Lucario from Lucario and the Mystery of Mew used were Aura Sphere and Detect. Aura Sphere began as Lucario's signature move, so of it course it was going to have it, and Detect wasn't used at all. Plus you need to remember that all of this was still taken from the games to begin with.

As I've said before, that's not to say the anime has no influence, perhaps I didn't word it properly, but I did say they use a blend. What the anime primarily influences though is how the character animates, and how they sound. And of course the anime is going to be their primary source for this because the games have very little animation (in terms of the Pokemon themselves, obviously there's tons of animations for the moves), and the only sounds Pokemon make are their cries which would not translate as well as the voice work used in the anime.

Yes characters with major anime/movie roles are generally chosen, but you have to keep in mind that both teams work closely together. The game devs are the one's that either pushed for these, or had to approve of characters like Mewtwo and Lucario to receive movies, etc. They work in tandem, but the game devs still have a bigger influence. They're the ones the anime's team has to answer to when deciding how to portray Pokemon.

Elements of Mewtwo that were likely pulled from his movie potrayal:
-The voice work
-Use of Shadow Ball as a signature move via Neutral Special
-General animation/mannerisms
-General references via flavor text in Smash 4, such as the "Mewtwo Strikes Back" reveal, or "A Legend Reawakens" title for the Boxing Ring

Elements of Lucario that were likely pulled from movie portrayal:
-Voice work/telepathy
-General animation such as walking, running, and jumping

As for the anime series, I doubt they pulled from there, as Mewtwo doesn't make any anime appearances outside of films iirc, and Lucario would not appear in the anime again until February 2008, about a week after Brawl's release.

Mewtwo definitely appeared in the anime first. Gary fought and gotten beaten bad, and in a later episode, it escaped. It's because of this the two Mewtwo movies specifically take place in the anime's continuity(the other movies may or may not, with only the Lucario one being likely part of the same anime canon. Rest are ambiguous).

Mewtwo's Confusion is used overall just like how it is solely in the anime, but it's called Psychic there. It's however more or less identical in usage. The idea is that Mewtwo's eyes glow, then it takes control of the opponent and moves them around. Confusion never shows up in the regular anime. It could just be them not wanting to think about it, but yes, this is a move Mewtwo does properly use in the anime. Also, it appears in the episode, Battle of the Bridge, and then again in Showdown at the Poke-Corral, where it escapes from Giovanni. The first movie happens during the anime overall. They're basically intertwined.

Mewtwo does not use Disable or Teleport in the anime, but he does move around constantly and is very very fast, though. As for Disable, Mewtwo is able to constantly control the opponent, so it's probably inspired from that particular usage of Psychic as well(Basically, Psychic is turned into two moves, Disable and Confusion). Notably, Mewtwo's eyes are glowing when he takes control of the opponent, so that's probably why Disable works how it's done, as an eye to eye contact bit. Both Confusion and Disable are still awful representations of the anime's abilities, though. Teleport is the only special in Melee that has no anime influence in any potential way.

...Assuming the image works, that's Mewtwo using Psychic to stop an opponent from moving, but to also control them. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Mewtwo_Psychic.png Full image just incase Smashboards refuses to do so.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

And he uses Bone Rush based upon the anime. Double Team is specific to how the anime uses it, which is a distraction so they can get in a sneak attack(it's pretty much a Counter). The basis of the aura ability is that he's a severe master of it and can use it in unique ways the game never did. Aura is unique in the video games. It's also separate in the anime/movie(it's nothing more than the ability to feel others). And in Smash, it's nothing more than a power-up bonus.

Look, please calm down. You're clearly debating with a hot head. I know you dislike that the anime is important to Smash, but you're aggressively finding ways to make your point while ignoring that it's still an important factor. Lucario's fighting style is based upon the anime. A lot of his moves are from the game, but the way he fights is still anime-based. These are not the same thing.

I don't know where the "please calm down" bit is coming from. Haven't I been agreeing with you this whole time? I even showed screenshots of the anime in an earlier post to prove, yes, those moves in his Smash moveset come straight from the anime. You're not calling me wrong, are you? He uses those moves in his moveset, right? Like, which move in Smash did Lucario use Bone Rush in again? That alone should prove everyone else is being biased about this and the two of us are the only ones comprehending how much of the anime Lucario truly pulls from.

We're one step away from winning this, Guun! You and me and Lucario against the world! All you need to do is point out where Bone Rush is in the moveset, and the entire basis of their arguments will completely fall apart! I'll even link you his SmashWiki article to help! Drive the nail in the coffin for these doubters: Which move was the move Lucario uses Bone Rush in?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't know where the "please calm down" bit is coming from. Haven't I been agreeing with you this whole time? I even showed screenshots of the anime in an earlier post to prove, yes, those moves in his Smash moveset come straight from the anime. You're not calling me wrong, are you? He uses those moves in his moveset, right? Like, which move in Smash did Lucario use Bone Rush in again? That alone should prove everyone else is being biased about this and the two of us are the only ones comprehending how much of the anime Lucario truly pulls from.

We're one step away from winning this, Guun! You and me and Lucario against the world! All you need to do is point out where Bone Rush is in the moveset, and the entire basis of their arguments will completely fall apart! I'll even link you his SmashWiki article to help! Drive the nail in the coffin for these doubters: Which move was the move Lucario uses Bone Rush in?

https://smashboards.com/threads/sup...ation-discussion.434391/page-41#post-21708978 ...This wasn't entirely said in sarcasm? Serious question, I thought it was. >.< Yes, that's why I asked you to calm down.

Also, his anime appearances were far later on. Outside of the movie, anyway. I'm pretty sure it was Movie > D/P/P > Anime > Smash in that order.

And the way you worded it made it look like you were disagreeing with me, respectively. Apologies. Anyway, I forgot Bone Rush wasn't used in Smash(compared to some of the others). It's a well known move of his, one people expected over Force Palm, so I simply remembered wrong. To be fair, that's over 100 moves to remember. Fairly easy to make that error. XD

 

[Arcadenik]

I'd honestly rather the extra mile be done and have the TRio as one collective unit even if the odds of that are even less than Meowth's are alone.

And I don't mean like Pokémon Trainer (though that was a concept I had in the past switching between an Arbok/Weezing pair and Meowth), but like Duck Hunt.

I actually had an idea like that at one time. I think that was 2 years ago during the Smash Ballot period. It was basically Meowth & Poison-type Pokemon team called "Team Rocket"... and since Meowth is the only one with limbs, he would do all the fighting... and Down+B would switch between Arbok and Weezing, giving the player access to different special moves.

I also toyed with the idea of Meowth & Wobbuffet team, also called "Team Rocket", where Meowth would do all the fighting with claws and coins... and Wobbuffet would do all the defending with Counter and Mirror Coat... and they are always together like Duck Hunt.

I really liked those ideas but then I remembered Sakurai separated Zelda and Sheik, made Charizard fly solo, and cut the Ice Climbers... so I scrapped those ideas and decided to just make Wobbuffet a counter move for Meowth... and Arbok and Weezing could show up in the Meowth's Party Final Smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

Mewtwo definitely appeared in the anime first. Gary fought and gotten beaten bad, and in a later episode, it escaped. It's because of this the two Mewtwo movies specifically take place in the anime's continuity(the other movies may or may not, with only the Lucario one being likely part of the same anime canon. Rest are ambiguous).

Mewtwo's Confusion is used overall just like how it is solely in the anime, but it's called Psychic there. It's however more or less identical in usage. The idea is that Mewtwo's eyes glow, then it takes control of the opponent and moves them around. Confusion never shows up in the regular anime. It could just be them not wanting to think about it, but yes, this is a move Mewtwo does properly use in the anime. Also, it appears in the episode, Battle of the Bridge, and then again in Showdown at the Poke-Corral, where it escapes from Giovanni. The first movie happens during the anime overall. They're basically intertwined.

Mewtwo does not use Disable or Teleport in the anime, but he does move around constantly and is very very fast, though. As for Disable, Mewtwo is able to constantly control the opponent, so it's probably inspired from that particular usage of Psychic as well(Basically, Psychic is turned into two moves, Disable and Confusion). Notably, Mewtwo's eyes are glowing when he takes control of the opponent, so that's probably why Disable works how it's done, as an eye to eye contact bit. Both Confusion and Disable are still awful representations of the anime's abilities, though. Teleport is the only special in Melee that has no anime influence in any potential way.

...Assuming the image works, that's Mewtwo using Psychic to stop an opponent from moving, but to also control them. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Mewtwo_Psychic.png Full image just incase Smashboards refuses to do so.

That's not the point I was trying to argue though, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, and if I worded it poorly my apologies.

I was never saying that the movies and anime are different continuities, they are not. The movies are extensions of the anime.
That being said, Mewtwo did not debut in the anime, it debuted in Red & Blue released in 1996. The first film debuted in 1998. The anime debuted in 1997, and Mewtwo would not appear in the anime for quite some time. (I'm going by Japanese dates for more accuracy btw.)

As I've stated a few times now, I'm not saying the anime does not have influence. I've said multiple times that they use a blend of both source material when designing characters. However, you're giving the anime far more credit than it's due given what's taken from them.

You need to remember that the teams work in tandem, and whatever portrayal in the anime is used, must be approved by the game devs. They work closely together so that the end result matches the vision of how the devs believe the Pokemon would actually be. The anime provides a good reference for voice/sound, animation/general aesthetics, as the games have always lacked in those departments to begin with.

That being said, most everything in the anime has a basis in the games. The anime is derivative. It is used to help expand the Pokemon series in ways the games can't, but it is not the primary source. You're attributing aesthetic design to mechanic design. And again, it's not to say there's no influence to mechanic design either as the anime portrayal of moves provide an easier reference to those in the games, but the anime is not the main source.

The comparisons you draw are fairly sound, but it could also be chalked up to creative liberty on Sakurai's behalf, with the devs signing off on it as they do with the anime's team. It could even be both, which is what I've been trying to say from the start.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's not the point I was trying to argue though, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, and if I worded it poorly my apologies.

I was never saying that the movies and anime are different continuities, they are not. The movies are extensions of the anime.
That being said, Mewtwo did not debut in the anime, it debuted in Red & Blue released in 1996. The first film debuted in 1998. The anime debuted in 1997, and Mewtwo would not appear in the anime for quite some time. (I'm going by Japanese dates for more accuracy btw.)

As I've stated a few times now, I'm not saying the anime does not have influence. I've said multiple times that they use a blend of both source material when designing characters. However, you're giving the anime far more credit than it's due given what's taken from them.

You need to remember that the teams work in tandem, and whatever portrayal in the anime is used, must be approved by the game devs. They work closely together so that the end result matches the vision of how the devs believe the Pokemon would actually be. The anime provides a good reference for voice/sound, animation/general aesthetics, as the games have always lacked in those departments to begin with.

That being said, most everything in the anime has a basis in the games. The anime is derivative. It is used to help expand the Pokemon series in ways the games can't, but it is not the primary source. You're attributing aesthetic design to mechanic design. And again, it's not to say there's no influence to mechanic design either as the anime portrayal of moves provide an easier reference to those in the games, but the anime is not the main source.

The comparisons you draw are fairly sound, but it could also be chalked up to creative liberty on Sakurai's behalf, with the devs signing off on it as they do with the anime's team. It could even be both, which is what I've been trying to say from the start.

No, you're missing the key point I was saying. Mewtwo debuted in the anime before the first movie came out. That's what I was saying. He's in both. You actually said he had no anime appearances. I was pointing out why that was incorrect, and why what he does in the anime also had influence in Smash. Mewtwo also uses moves in the anime that specifically lift an opponent and throw them somewhere. This is the overall basis for how Confusion works. Disable is clearly the picture I showed you, which was to stop an opponent from moving. It's obvious the Smash version of it needs to hit their eyes as a balancing factor. Being able to outright hold the opponent in place without a single requirement would be broken. Of course, the fact that if they're not facing you, the move doesn't work is bad design too. On the other hand, how can you approach Mewtwo if he can stop you the second you get clone. It's an odd move to balance right.

No disagreements with the rest, of course.