Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[Arcadenik]

It's really hard saying who will be cut from the Pokemon line-up:

• Lucario and Mewtwo have mega evolutions (Link)
• Jigglypuff has new typing with the possibility for new moves. (Link)
• Pokemon Trainer (Red) is getting is own TV show (Link)
• And Pikachu is....well, its Pikachu.

Yeah, it seems like the Pokémon roster is not going to excite me in SSB4 like it did in Melee and Brawl... no new Pokémon characters? Seriously? No Zoroark, no Deoxys, no Pokémon Trainer Gold (or May), no Meowth, no brand-new never-before-playable-in-Smash Pokémon?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Yeah, it seems like the Pokémon roster is not going to excite me in SSB4 like it did in Melee and Brawl... no new Pokémon characters? Seriously? No Zoroark, no Deoxys, no Pokémon Trainer Gold (or May), no Meowth, no brand-new never-before-playable-in-Smash Pokémon?

this is all a good thing

why the **** people want constant inconsistency in fire emblem and pokemon is beyond me

 

[LaniusShrike]

I have same issue myself. I don't mind it with characters like Falcon and Fox who don't really have much to go off but for characters like Gannon it really bothers me.
Which is why I want Bowser to have a Clown Copter as his final smash rather than some made up Mega Bowser form.

Ayupppp, especially with the more cartoony aesthetic of this game.
And, on the same note, Peach's final smash could absolutely easily be related to her Vibe magic instead of, uhm, making people fall asleep in a fruit garden.

In her thread, I proposed a system where her FS would align to a different vibe based on certain conditions (winning, losing, at a high %, things like that).

Also proposed a new version of her counter attack that uses the Vibes instead of Toad.

And, really, her side special could easily have been made into an umbrella attack or a Vibe from SPP.

Anyway. Eh. Whateverrrr.

 

[Moon Monkey]

youknowtheywont.jpg

Well I could point to Bowser and Pit's moveset tweaks to prove otherwise.
Speaking of Bowser, Although i love the drop kick i think the horn smash is a more fitting F-Smash.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Well I could point to Bowser and Pit's moveset tweaks to prove otherwise.
Speaking of Bowser, Although i love the drop kick i think the horn smash is a more fitting F-Smash.

A few characters out of many

Wait, did they change Bowser in Smash 4 as well?

 

[Big-Cat]

A few characters out of many

Wait, did they change Bowser in Smash 4 as well?

Bowser got a lot of new moves, a new stance, and a new running animation. And who's to say they aren't changing up a lot of the cast? They ARE aiming for diversity after all.

 

[Moon Monkey]

A few characters out of many

Wait, did they change Bowser in Smash 4 as well?

Well we only have a few revealed characters and the ones who don't have changes are already varied in moveset as it is. Some characters look like they have been slightly tweaked aswell like DK's recovery spin and olimar's pikmin count.

Yeah bro, he runs, he has a new dash, f-smash, neutral-air-- Whoa wait did you see the reveal trailer and Direct!?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Speaking of Bowser, Although i love the drop kick i think the horn smash is a more fitting F-Smash.

It's a pretty fitting forward smash considering his demeanor is leaning towards more of a wrestling vibe over the years. Between each game, he seems to transitioning from beast to brute.

 

[Moon Monkey]

It's a pretty fitting forward smash considering his demeanor is leaning towards more of a wrestling vibe over the years. Between each game, he seems to transitioning from beast to brute.

Can you provide some examples that i can look up?
The only moves that seems fitting to him now is his ground pound and fire-breath.

One thing i would of loved to see from Bowser is a if the player taped the b button instead of breathing a stream of fire Bowser shot out a hadouken-esque fire ball.

 

[IsmaR]

It makes complete sense if you've played Bowser's Inside Story.

 

[Big-Cat]

Can you provide some examples that i can look up?
The only moves that seems fitting to him now is his ground pound and fire-breath.

One thing i would of loved to see from Bowser is a if the player taped the b button instead of breathing a stream of fire Bowser shot out a hadouken-esque fire ball.

Well, look at some of the recent games like Bowser's Inside Story or even 3D Land. He has becomes progressively less feral (though chopper backup is always there) and more human-like in his personality. You can see that's he's more a macho idiot than an animal.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Can you provide some examples that i can look up?

In Melee, he was more of the stereotypical monster type, complete with borrowing stock roars and introducing the intimidating Giga Bowser. In terms of using a move as an example, the Koopa Klaw is a good start considering the move either involved a claw slash or grabbing the opponent and munching on their head.

Starting with Brawl, his character started to deviate a tad from that monstrous character and started to gain some characteristics of more of a stereotypical brute.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@KumaOso: True. I think of Smash as entirely non-canon, so it doesn't bother me as much. I get what you mean, though, and I can agree to an extent.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Well looks like i found the next Let's Play i'm gonna watch.

@Habanero I meant from actual games outside of Samsh

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Bowser got a lot of new moves, a new stance, and a new running animation. And who's to say they aren't changing up a lot of the cast? They ARE aiming for diversity after all.

I think they'll change some moves, especially for the lesser characters, but I don't see a need to change an entire character's moveset just to make them more like the game.

Though Ness could probably use the changes more than Lucas.

Well we only have a few revealed characters and the ones who don't have changes are already varied in moveset as it is. Some characters look like they have been slightly tweaked aswell like DK's recovery spin and olimar's pikmin count.

Yeah bro, he runs, he has a new dash, f-smash, neutral-air-- Whoa wait did you see the reveal trailer and Direct!?

I saw the reveal trailer 200 times.

I'm not joking.

 

[Big-Cat]

@KumaOso: True. I think of Smash as entirely non-canon, so it doesn't bother me as much. I get what you mean, though, and I can agree to an extent.

While Smash IS non-canon, you have to be careful with how you adapt the characters. With Ness, I think replacing PK Fire with Rockin' (only looks are changed), PK Thunder with PSI Teleport, change up Flash so it doesn't suck, and probably giving him Shield (a hyper armor builder) would do nice justice for hi since recovering health would easily be broken.

Lucas is the tough one to figure out though. He COULD go the way of Yoshi have only two jumps. This also reminds me that air dashes in Smash would be freaking awesome.

@thirdkoopa
Define "lesser character". I think the changes made to a character will depend primarily on a desire for more diversity, movesets that just can't seem to work out (Bowser), character evolution in their main series, technical limitations (possibly Olimar), and things like that. Though don't be surprised if a lot of the characters that don't have blantantly changed animations to be tweaked a lot. I think Link will be a prime example of this. His Project M incarnation mostly went for speed and power buffs in his moves.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Well, look at some of the recent games like Bowser's Inside Story or even 3D Land. He has becomes progressively less feral (though chopper backup is always there) and more human-like in his personality. You can see that's he's more a macho idiot than an animal.

In 3D Land the most he does is shoot fire balls and power stomp creating shock waves.
His whole demeanor in that game seems very similar to Galaxy 1 and 2, both of which i don't think he had much of a wrestler vibe.
but I'll take you and Ismar's suggestion and check out Inside Story (never really got into the Mario & Luigi games)

 

[Thirdkoopa]

>lucas
>two jumps

yes, because Lucas needs to be more underpowered. >_>

 

[FlareHabanero]

I meant from actual games outside of Samsh

His character became more fleshed out around the time we've gotten a handful of varies RPGs starting around the 2ist century, and his character was subtly shown in varies spin off titles like the Mario sports titles and Mario Party. It kind of varies between the game in question. In the platforming games he's more of the stereotypical villain, in the RPGs he's usually treated as more of a dumb muscle type character, in the sports games he's more treated as a dirty fighter and a sore loser, and the Mario Party titles he's more treated as a mischievous troll.

 

[Big-Cat]

In 3D Land the most he does is shoot fire balls and power stomp creating shock waves.
His whole demeanor in that game seems very similar to Galaxy 1 and 2, both of which i don't think he had much of a wrestler vibe.
but I'll take you and Ismar's suggestion and check out Inside Story (never really got into the Mario & Luigi games)

"Wrestler" is a vague term as there are faces and heels in entertainment wrestling. Describing him as more a dumb muscle would be a better descriptor.

>lucas
>two jumps

yes, because Lucas needs to be more underpowered. >_>

Depends on what they do with him. I'm just tossing out ideas. One thing I visualized for air dashes is that they consume one of your jump stocks before landing. Yoshi and Lucas could have a unique property to them where the double jump does not consume the air dash stock and vice versa.

 

[Arcadenik]

this is all a good thing

why the **** people want constant inconsistency in fire emblem and pokemon is beyond me

My reason for wanting new Pokémon characters is that I have already seen them playable in Smash and I have had my fill with them from the last 5-10 years. I don't really want to play as the same Pokémon for the next 5-10 years before SSB5 comes out. I want to see how the new Pokémon are like as playable characters in Smash. I crave new gameplay experiences with Pokémon characters. There are more than 700 Pokémon in the Pokémon franchise and I am stuck with the same seven Pokémon for 20 years (2001 - 2021)?

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

and one of the most POWERFUL moves in the game had her flying at her opponents then hitting them with her butt! Although she was nerfed in brawl, she was a nightmare to play against in Melee.

Um, are you referring to Peach Bomber or to her Down Smash?

----

 

[Moon Monkey]

His character became more fleshed out around the time we've gotten a handful of varies RPGs starting around the 2ist century, and his character was subtly shown in varies spin off titles of the Mario sports titles and Mario Party. It kind of varies between the game in question. In the platforming games he's more of the stereotypical villain, in the RPGs he's usually treated as more of a dumb muscle type character, in the sports games he's more treated as a dirty fighter and a sore loser, and the Mario Party titles he's more treated as a mischievous troll.

Oh, he's definitely the troll in Mario Party. I do agree that in the RPGs (Paper Mario at least) that Bowser has been portrayed as a silly brute, and dirty fighter in the sports games.
I'm just not sure how it equates to drop kicks and suplexing enemies, but the more i talk about it, the more it seems okay.
I mean in boss fights Bowser really doesn't do much beside stomping and fire breathing so i guess he really could do anything.

@Kuma I see where your coming from. And under that context it makes a bit more sense if i picture him as the dopey brute

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While Smash IS non-canon, you have to be careful with how you adapt the characters. With Ness, I think replacing PK Fire with Rockin' (only looks are changed), PK Thunder with PSI Teleport, change up Flash so it doesn't suck, and probably giving him Shield (a hyper armor builder) would do nice justice for hi since recovering health would easily be broken.

Lucas is the tough one to figure out though. He COULD go the way of Yoshi have only two jumps. This also reminds me that air dashes in Smash would be freaking awesome.

No air dashes please.

And eh, I like how they play though. Accuracy is less important to me than them being fun to play. Flash and PK Ice really do need some work, though, agreed.

Lucas is better off with how he is. Namely because Yoshi has a very long second jump, Lucas doesn't. I think they could give him something else, though.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think Bowser in SSB4 is more based on Bowser's Inside Story... that's the vibe I am getting from Bowser.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I think Bowser in SSB4 is more based on Bowser's Inside Story... that's the vibe I am getting from Bowser.

Hopefully they will base DK off his Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (Or any Donkey Kong Country really) and give him his damn roll attack already! I haven't seen him do his dash attack yet so their is hope.

 

[IsmaR]

His whole demeanor in that game seems very similar to Galaxy 1 and 2, both of which i don't think he had much of a wrestler vibe.
but I'll take you and Ismar's suggestion and check out Inside Story (never really got into the Mario & Luigi games)

He seemed to have much more of a wrestler vibe in Galaxy 2 than in 1. As opposed to using dark magic/fire/elecrticity and rolling, the majority of his attacks were (giant) punches and the occasianal dark fire attack.

The spin-offs in general just show Bowser in a much more light-hearted manner, even when he's the final antagonist. The Mario and Luigi series does a great job of this while both expanding on his character and still keeping that badass/epic boss image you tend to see more of in the main series games.

Basically without spoiling too much:

Spoiler

M&L 1 (Super Star Saga) - Bowser's more of an antihero, does acrobatics/team based theatrical moves very reminiscent of a wrestler. He even wears a mask during half his boss fights.

Spoiler

M&L 2 (Partners In Time) - This one retains Bowser as the serious villain (albeit blundering) with his younger self being there for the comic relief. Again uses team-based moves in his boss battle, though not to the same extent.

M&L 3 (Bowser's Inside Story) - You'll obviously get more out of it watching the LP/playing it yourself, but Bowser comes off more as a jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold and chavaunistic brute, as stated before, than a genuine evil monster. He constantly states how he's the strongest/will back it up, and does indeed talk with his fists most of the time. His signature moves and abilities in this game are punching, rolling into enemies with his shell, and he even does a body slam/ground pound technique in the overworld. Lastly a bunch of minigames/"fitness crazes" exist in the game, which can be as little as him running on a treadmill to him growing Giga sized and literally punch the crap out of things in a glorified wrestling match.

I don't think Smash is trying to turn him into the all out dumb muscle stereotype (which I thought DK personifies a bit better), but they're just trying to show he's more than just a big mindless monster/turtle/dragon. Even in Brawl's SSE, I got the feeling during his cutscenes with Mario, DK/Diddy/Fox/Falco, Ganondorf and lastly Dedede. The latter two especially showed off that he's a big of a drama queen, and even as intimidating as he is others acknowledge it.

 

[Salty the SLUG]

Um, are you referring to Peach Bomber or to her Down Smash?

----

It was a joke.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hopefully they will base DK off his Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (Or any Donkey Kong Country really) and give him his damn roll attack already! I haven't seen him do his dash attack yet so their is hope.

I'd totally take that as his Dash attack.

Donkey Kong, Transform and Roll Out!

 

[Deleted member]

Here's what I came up with on the Zelda and Sheik threads.

ZELDA


SHEIK

From something I posted over in the P:M forum:

^^^ Dude, love your sig, hahahaha.

Anyway, can we talk about Zelda and Sheik?

Why are they together? The transform gimmick hardly works and both would be better without it.

A Zoner/Spacer and a Close Combat Rushdown character hardly work in synergy. Having to transition from Zelda to Sheik and vice-versa is incredibly awkward, and detrimental to their playstyle, in the end, Zelda becomes more like a "useful recovery option" for Sheik, rather than the other half as she should be.

If we're keeping them together for tradition's sake, we should change that. I feel that the down B can be a rather tedious miss-input and also a waste of a move as both would benefit from being more dedicated characters. if we're gonna have a transforming character it should be done in a fashion that both halves work in perfect synergy to achieve the same goal, rather than having a gimmick tacked on for diversity's sake. I think the best example of a transforming character done right can be seen in Blazblue's Valkenhayn:

How about we split the characters completely, and give Zelda a "Magic Charge" like Lucas so she has a little more of that much needed killing power, but in a balanced manner, and can instead focus on Spacing and Mindgames which is what she does best.

And give Sheik a stealthy approach option for her Down B, I'd say something like Eddie's "Break the Law + Shadow Gallery" where Sheik could vanish into a shadow on the ground and come up at will to strike from a different location: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Eddie_(GGAC). Of course, the lack of Zelda would mean improving Sheik's recovery a bit, I have a neat idea for that if anyone wants to listen...


Basically, UpB in mid-air is identical, but UpB on the ground woul place a marker on the ground that has limited radial range. If Sheik uses Vanish within that range, she teleports directly to that location regardless of where she is on the stage. It is a nice balanced move that falls in line with the "preperation" the ninja concept. It also has enough faults that it isn't OP, one is the range of the marker, and two is the fact that the marker would disappear after you vanish to it, meaning you have to place another for it to be effective. Also, using it means that your opponent KNOWS where you're gonna land, thus leading to plenty to neat mindgames. It would mean losing the fuctionality of using Vanish while on the ground to mix up opponents, but with Sheik's Eddie inspired DownB, she's given that and more as compensation.


Thoughts?

I think at the end we came to the conclusion that Zelda's Magic charge should increase the hitbox of her magical attacks, thus making her more capable of earning kills.

Also, replace Sheik with Impa, this was made for Project M mind you. I'd change up a couple of Impa's attacks from Sheik's for Smash 4, mainly the Chain, giving Impa something more suitable. I've always felt Sheik's Chain was a bit useless cause of the delay and lag, but what do I know, I don't main Sheik, so I'm just talking outta my ass.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I stand by this at all times.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, and on the Pokemon Roster, I can still see Jiggs not coming back. Her being a Fairy type hardly justifies a return. She's not getting any highlight from it. If anything, our benchmark Fairy type is Sylveon.

If Jiggs was low prio for Brawl, it's possible she'll be the same for Smash 4, with the possibility of her not returning because of it.

The other 4 are getting WAYYY more attention than Jiggs.

 

[Moon Monkey]

He seemed to have much more of a wrestler vibe in Galaxy 2 than in 1. As opposed to using dark magic/fire/elecrticity and rolling, the majority of his attacks were (giant) punches and the occasianal dark fire attack.

The spin-offs in general just show Bowser in a much more light-hearted manner, even when he's the final antagonist. The Mario and Luigi series does a great job of this while both expanding on his character and still keeping that badass/epic boss image you tend to see more of in the main series games.

Basically without spoiling too much:

Spoiler

M&L 1 (Super Star Saga) - Bowser's more of an antihero, does acrobatics/team based theatrical moves very reminiscent of a wrestler. He even wears a mask during half his boss fights.

Spoiler

M&L 2 (Partners In Time) - This one retains Bowser as the serious villain (albeit blundering) with his younger self being there for the comic relief. Again uses team-based moves in his boss battle, though not to the same extent.

M&L 3 (Bowser's Inside Story) - You'll obviously get more out of it watching the LP/playing it yourself, but Bowser comes off more as a jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold and chavaunistic brute, as stated before, than a genuine evil monster. He constantly states how he's the strongest/will back it up, and does indeed talk with his fists most of the time. His signature moves and abilities in this game are punching, rolling into enemies with his shell, and he even does a body slam/ground pound technique in the overworld. Lastly a bunch of minigames/"fitness crazes" exist in the game, which can be as little as him running on a treadmill to him growing Giga sized and literally punch the crap out of things in a glorified wrestling match.

I don't think Smash is trying to turn him into the all out dumb muscle stereotype (which I thought DK personifies a bit better), but they're just trying to show he's more than just a big mindless monster/turtle/dragon. Even in Brawl's SSE, I got the feeling during his cutscenes with Mario, DK/Diddy/Fox/Falco, Ganondorf and lastly Dedede. The latter two especially showed off that he's a big of a drama queen, and even as intimidating as he is others acknowledge it.

Bowser is similarly portrayed as this in the Paper Mario series, especially in Paper Mario:TTYD and Super Mario, so the the silly protagonist angle isn't too much of stretch for me. I just never seen Bowser drop kick Toads or suplex Mario in and of the games.

But as Kuma mention he isn't so much of a wrestler as he is a mindless/silly powerhouse. I guess I've been so accustomed to Bowser being the feral beast since Melee. I just finished watching the the intro to Inside Story and it really strengthens the silly powerhouse especially with that face off with the sumo pig.

 

[Arcadenik]

This could be Ness's version of PK Fire... while Lucas keeps his version of PK Fire.

 

[Big-Cat]

This could be Ness's version of PK Fire... while Lucas keeps his version of PK Fire.

 

[Arcadenik]

But I like Lucas's PK Fire.

Fine, keep the move but rename it PK Love and change the aesthetics... replace flames with hearts.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bowser is still a great beast. He just likes to be funny. Like Sonic Underground!Robotnik(except Bowser is actually funny).

 

[Metal Overlord]

Lol, I like AoSTH Robotnik a lot more

 

[Big-Cat]

But I like Lucas's PK Fire.

Fine, keep the move but rename it PK Love and change the aesthetics... replace flames with hearts.

That's what I suggested earlier. Replace the aesthetics for both Fires to become Rockin' and Love.

 

[FlareHabanero]

But I like Lucas's PK Fire.

Fine, keep the move but rename it PK Love and change the aesthetics... replace flames with hearts.

Lot's of implications with something like that...