Veril
Frame Savant
Beta Testing and Throw optimization:
I'm going to start keeping track of all of my recommendations and such for throw fixes in the beta build. I hope to go through the whole cast eventually. Some of my suggestions have already been taken by Cape, such as the Jigglypuff changes (also supported by Glick). The latest Beta is a much better base to work with than 5.0, so all suggestions I make assume the latest Beta is being modified.
Check my "Shameless Geekery" thread in the workshop subforum for crazy detailed information on all the characters I've made recommendations on, and most everyone else really. I've stopped updating the data on the beta here, and you should check that thread frequently since I update it every day.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257152
^^Awesome win juice in thread form^^
Principles (short version):
•ensure that no throw is overly weakened by the beta changes. ie, nerfed to death.
•Bring all throws to the minimum advantage (average adv if its a ∂W through) of jump startup + 1.
•minimize CGs
•optimize advantage windows such that combos are not completely removed by the hitstun reduction, but still require more tech skill to execute.
•no "vestigial limbs"
I intend to perfect the throw game in B+. While not every change I suggest will be taken, each suggestion I make carries weight because I am informed in regards to the raw numerical properties of nearly the entire cast's throw set AND because I will make recommendations based on an objective set of principles. I have begun posting this data in a separate thread, which I will be citing frequently.
ON HITSTUN
All information assumes hitstun is at .46, which is the level I believe to be ideal. I'll extrapolate at some point.
Balancing Principles:
Adding options > Reducing them.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. If its a good change, try it now so that we don't regret not doing so in the future (I want a gold set as much as any of you, moreso than some).
1. Alter a throw based on its most significant use:
•ex. alter kbg or damage for KOing throws to augment the % it kills at. I do not believe any throw needs a nerf to its raw KOing power, though several warrent buffs.
2. Combo potential is the most significant aspect of a throw. It is crucial to understand all throw followups for all characters.
3. Combos are cool. Inescapable combos that work across all % are less cool. The combo game should emphasize skill in regards to execution, while still allowing important combos (like Rob's d-throw nair) to remain.
4. CGs that work past low % and cannot be DIed out of are undesirable. While not every CG must be removed, no moves should be altered in a way that makes CGing where it was not before.
•The ICs (other than the b-throw infinite, which was removed) are an exception to this rule due to it being avoidable and a core component of their game.
5. 0-D throw combos (not strings, true combos) will be removed.
•ex. Jigglypuff's up-throw to up-air to rest being removed. (Yes, I actually support this.)
••
this is why Jigglypuff doesn't get "true" throw combos. I still think she should be able to tech chase with DACUS though (working on figuring out how to optimize her throws still).
6. Internally balance a character's throw game so that there isn't one option that is clearly the best in all situations.
•d-throw knee anyone?
7. Bring all throws that cannot KO to a minimum advantage standard. THIS DOES NOT MEAN MAKE ALL THROWS GOOD! It means no throw will be garbage. Some characters have no bad throws. Some characters also have fairly crappy throws (Link for example).
•The minimum standard should be an average initial advantage of jump startup + at least 1 (aerial speed has to be taken into account). Not every throw must combo, or kill, or even wrack up loads of damage. No throw should have an advantage lower than the standard however, as advantages lower than that basically signify that a throw is s***.
8. Characters with bad grabs shouldn't also have crappy throws. And no, no character that falls in that category is so covered in ****-sauce that it isn't a really significant weakness.
•ex. Link's throws should be improved given how slow and punishable his grab is.
9. Characters with great grabs can have great throws, but we should refrain from improving the most useful throw of any character with a great grab.
10. Buffing a throw to allow it to combo into any given move should be done such that the combo requires precise timing to execute. This avoids sloppy combos.
11. Sloppy combos = fail. Something doesn't have to be easy, it just has to be possible. In general changing hitstun to .46 improves this drastically.
Methods:
Some notes I thought people might find helpful for balancing their own mods as well as understanding what I'm doing. (again, until I write up a more detailed explanation of how hitstun scales with the modifier, assume .46)
CG's are fairly easy to remove by increasing bkb. Because hitstun scales directly with bkb, this will usually preserve aerial combos up until the character can't single jump far enough for the followup.
Increasing KBG will reduce the range within which a combo will function, it will also improve the killing power of a throw. It is also a way of removing CGs, though I prefer modifying bkb personally since it is a much cleaner method.
Bowser: only f-throw falls below the standard.
f-throw: advantage is close to 0 on average, but due to weight effects, the throw has a mediocre advantage on some of the lighter characters. A relatively minor tweek which would improve its average advantage somewhat without ****** floaties would be to decrease the release frame by 6 and the iasa by 12. This would reduce the variance, increase the overall speed of the throw, and should result in the minimum standard.
CF:
f-throw: no change necessary. This throw is no longer useless given the d- throw nerf. It will lead into a tech chase generally but has a respectable advantage window for comboing.
b-throw: ewww. +22 bkb and 7 off the iasa plz.
up-throw: Despite being mediocre advantage wise at 0, given its low growth its good.
d-throw: mostly sets up for tech chases now and ***** those who can't DI. Definitely still **** against floaty characters and much less so against FFers.
Charizard: not amazing throws, but not bad by any means. Given his amazing grab range, at the most I will be making minor adjustments.
Diddy Kong: one of the best throw sets on paper, and clearly good in practice. No need for any change here. All his throws greatly exceed the minimum standard.
ICs: the IC throws are fine and I really don't want to touch them or try and further nerf their CG game.
MK: Don'chu hurt him no mo'... I saw what'chu did to the nado!
Snake: he's good. Big surprise. Nothing needs to change here.
Yay, 5.0 is out. Time to cut it apart and look at it, no?
I've also been testing something that has, from what I know, been completely overlooked: throw frame information. Now, I'm sure most of you know that the release point on throws varies based on who's being thrown. Here's some other important points:
•the hitstun on all throws is consistent across the cast at 0% (same number of frames of stun). As would be expected, the hitstun growth rate varies by character.
•Throws with internal damage (ie, more than one hit) have a set amount of lag after the release point (I calculate the "lag" based on the frame the last hits damage is applied on... if you need clarification talk to me on AIM. This is the best and easiest way to find lag on throws).
•Throws without internally applied damage (single hit) have lag that varies across the cast. Testing these is a nightmare and as such I'm only going to be testing a few characters single hit throws.
•hitstun - lag = advantage on throw. -jump startup = aerial followup window.
••Given the above, throws with internal damage will yield one value for advantage on an opponent at 0%. Yay. That's measurable.
••Certain characters are far more susceptable to throw combos than others. Jigglypuff is the most susceptable out of the cast because she suffers the most hitstun growth, and yields the lowest lag values (by a large margin) for almost every type of variable throws (not 100% of the time, but exceptions are rare and even then she's near the worst).
••Certain characters are effectively equal for the purpose of determining variable lag on a throw.
-Known and tested examples are MK=Pikachu, Yoshi=Wario, Zelda=Sheik.
••ISJR frames normally occur exclusively at the first iasa frame after any aerial move. There are several exceptions/quirks , special cases include QA, Luigi's down-b, Bowser's klaw, etc. Here are the general rules:
-sjr always occurs on the landing frame
-sjr occurs on aerial IASA frames. The case of the klaw it may be explained by its transition into the grab.
-any moves with added aerial IASA frame will be able to SJR on those frames!
-the helpless state prevents sjr.
-sjr jumps have no startup lag, they are the same as the first double jump.
There should be a way to add in isjr frames. Making faux IASA frames (like with the klaw, sans grabbox) would essentially add a new element of technical skill. It would be more akin to autocanceling than l-canceling. Idk, its an option. We shouldn't necessarily do this, but you should all know that it is possible.
See MK upair data (below) for a good example.
note: unrelated but really useful formula: sstun = 2x (dmg/3 rounded down) + 5
values listed for grabs are the first frame that the character will grab on
Choice reaction time: I assume that the upper limit for this is 12, and that the majority of competitive players will have CRTs of between 12 and 15 frames. This only matters if the person actually knows how to properly DI a throw, and I assume that at a high level everyone will... eventually. Because DI is read the frame before release, ROF must be at least 13 for it to be possible (for anyone) to DI without predicting the throw. ROF must be at least 16 for it to be DI able by the majority of players. ROFs of 13-15 are a gray area in which those with very fast reflexes and excellent tech skill will be able to DI, while most will not. If an ROF is 30 or above, DI is totally possible and should be expected from anyone competent (thus why d-throw > rest doesn't work on non-n00bs more than one time, its got a very high rof).
-You can infer from this that each character will have a unique spread in regards to DIing ∂W throws. I'm making a chart to demonstrate how important this is.
x-hyphen-treme detail
throw data includes both the lag formula, damage, and initial hitstun
throw data includes the lag formula (or lag if its set), but not necessarily complete data
throw data isn't very complete at all
indicates a throw can KO. Not that its good as a KO, but simply that it can kill KP at ~175%. I feel it is safe to assume that any throw that can't kill Jiggs from the center of FD at 175 (w/o DI) isn't going to KO except in unusual circumstances. I'll put these up over time, just started tonight.
∂W=weight dependent: the values for these throws are tested using Lucario, as per Magus's recommendation. Their data will be listed in this format.
DON'T BE LIKE LEAF! READ THIS SO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FORMULA POSTED
Lag on throw =[First actionable frame (ie, the frame a shield would first appear on) •w - Release frame •w]
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: each of the values modified by weight must be rounded up in order to calculate lag. Merely multiplying base lag by weight mod will NOT always or even often give you the correct value. w=1 for a set value throw, or the characters weight if its ∂W.
Bowser:
experimentally confirmed weight modifier: 5.0: 1.2 • GSH: 1.12
f-throw (∂W): [60 - 36 = 24] ----- 12 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [40 - 19 = 21] ----- 12 dmg
u-throw (set): [86 - 69 = 17] ----- 10 dmg (2kbd)
d-throw (set): [89 - 60 = 29] ----- ****
jump startup: 7 ----- SH airtime: 37 ----- sjr, ie. klaw hop airtime: 57
Cpt. Falcon:
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 33 ----- lag = [38 - 17 = 21] ----- 9 dmg (4 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 28 ----- lag = [48 - 15 = 33] ----- 9 dmg (4 kbd)
•FAIL throw
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 39 ----- lag = [41 - 17 = 24] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
•initial advantage 5.0 (GSH): 14 (9, growth is ~%/7)
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 41 (GSH: 36) ----- lag = [40 - 21 = 19] ----- 7 dmg
•initial advantage 5.0: 21 bowser - 29 JP GSH (15-23). DI + teching makes this irrelevant largely in the beta
jump startup: 4 ----- SH (FF) airtime: 31 (24?) ----- FH (FF) airtime: 52 (42)
standing grab: 7 ----- dash grab: 11 ----- pivot grab: 11
Falcon Charts posted here: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=1156546#p1156546
Falcon's throws all are DIable given a choice reaction time of ~15. Falcon's throw lag is high enough for you to be have some leeway in regards to reading DI. The d-throw provides enough hitstun that it isn't necessary to perfectly read DI (ie, buffering your followup). D-throw is super ****, up-throw is garden variety ****, f-throw is ok but inferior compared to the ****, b-throw is teh suck (especially at low %). Knee away!
Charizard:
f-throw (∂W): lag = [60 - 40 = 20] ----- 10 dmg
b-throw (∂W): lag = [33 - 16 = 17] ----- 10 dmg
u-throw (set): lag = [53 - 33 = 20] ----- 11 dmg (3 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [92 - 62 = 30] ----- 11 dmg (1 kbd)
jump startup: 5
DDD:
f-throw (set): lag = [41 - 17 = 24] ----- 12 dmg (6 kbd)
b-throw (set): lag = [45 - 22 = 23] ----- 14 dmg (9 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = [42 - 21 = 21] ----- 9 dmg (5 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [44 - 25 = 19] ----- 8 dmg (4 kbd)
Jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 40
Diddy Kong
f-throw (∂W): lag = [26 - 11 = 15] ----- 11 dmg
b-throw (∂W): lag = [26 - 9 = 17] ------ 10 dmg
u-throw (set): lag = [30 - 18 = 12] ----- 9 dmg (5 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): lag = [32 - 11 = 21] ----- 9 dmg
jump startup: 4
Donkey Kong
f(side) (∂W): lag = [40 - 13 = 27] ----- 8 dmg
f(up) (∂W): lag = [30 - 14 = 16] ----- 9 dmg
f(down) (∂W): lag = [40 - 16 = 24]
b-throw (∂W): lag = [40 - 15 = 25] ----- 11 dmg
u-throw (∂W): lag = [44 - 14 = 30] ----- 9 dmg
d-throw (∂W): lag = [60 - 41 = 19] ----- 7 dmg
Falco
f-throw: lag = 23
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw: lag = 11
jump startup: 5 ---- SH airtime: 27
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 11 ----- pivot grab: 9
Fox:
f-throw: lag = 23
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw: lag = 21
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 23
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 11 ----- pivot grab: 9
Game and Watch
f-throw (∂W): lag = [70 - 56 = 14] ----- 8 dmg
b-throw (∂W): lag = [70 - 56 = 14] ----- 8 dmg
u-throw (∂W): lag = [70 - 56 = 14] ----- 8 dmg
d-throw (∂W): lag = [55 - 44 = 11] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 4
Ganondorf
f-throw (set): initial landing w/o DI frame 44 ----- initial hitstun = 37, lag = [42 - 14 = 28] ----- 13 dmg (8 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 30, lag = 37 ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = 32 ----- 10 dmg (3 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 40 ----- lag = [40 - 23 = 17] ----- 7 dmg
jump startup: 6 ----- SH airtime: 31 ----- FH airtime: 49
Ice Climbers
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 40 ----- lag = [50 - 25 = 25] ----- 8 dmg (5kbd)
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag = [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 6 dmg
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 61 ----- lag = [54 - 26 = 28] ----- 6 dmg
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 24 ----- lag = [50 - 37 = 13] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 4
Ike
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 29 ----- lag = [26 - 9 = 17] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 29 ----- lag = [35 - 23 = 12] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 41 ----- lag = [52 - 29 = 23] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 50 ----- lag = [60 - 42 = 18] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
jump startup: 5?
Ivysaur
f-throw (∂W): [34-16=18] ----- 8 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [34-18=16] ----- 10 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [28-13=15] ----- 10 dmg
d-throw (∂W): [35-19=16] ----- 10 dmg
jump startup: 4
Jigglypuff
f-throw (set): [38 - 13 = 25] ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
b-throw (∂W): [50 - 26 = 24] ----- 10 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [42 - 9 = 31] ----- 10 dmg
d-throw (set): [90 - 67 = 23]
jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 42
I'm not sharing the JP data until after BtL2, if ever. Her throws aren't broke in any way shape or form.
Kirby
f-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 25 ----- lag = [62-45=17] ----- 8 dmg
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 34 ----- lag = [53-33=20] ----- 8 dmg
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag = [80-51=29] ----- 10 dmg
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [90-60=30] ----- 12 dmg (2 kbd)
Kirby's throws are good, but fall far short of being broken in any way.
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 41
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 10 ----- pivot grab: 10
Link
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [43-15=28] ----- 7 dmg (4kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 34 ----- lag = [40-15=25] ----- 7 dmg (4kbd)
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 34 ----- lag = [50-28=22] ----- 7dmg (2kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = 26
jump startup: 6?
standing grab: 12 ----- dash grab: 14 ----- pivot grab: 15
Lucario:
f-throw (∂W): 7 dmg
b-throw (∂W): 10 dmg
u-throw (set): lag = 21 ----- 5 dmg (4 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): 10 dmg
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 42
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 8 ----- pivot grab: 9
Lucas
f-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 57 ----- lag = [53-23=30] ----- 10 dmg
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 57 ----- lag = [53-20=33] ---- 10 dmg
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 47 ----- lag = [55-25=30] ---- 10 dmg
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag = [50-41=9] ------ 7dmg
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 32 ----- FH airtime: 55 ----- sjr airtime: 78
soft landing lag: 2 ----- hard landing lag: 5
standing grab: 13 ----- dash grab: 16 ----- pivot grab: 15
Luigi
f-throw (∂W): [28 - 13 = 15] ----- 9 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [67 - 44 = 33] ----- 12 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 8 dmg
d-throw (∂W): [41 - 18 = 23] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 48
Mario
f-throw (∂W): [28 - 13 = 15] ----- 9 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [67 - 44 = 33] ----- 12 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 8 dmg
d-throw (∂W): [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 5 ---- SH airtime: 35
Martha
f-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 38 ----- lag = [32 - 15 = 17]
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 38 ----- lag = [35 - 8 = 27]
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [33 - 13 = 20]
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [43 - 16 = 27]
Given that the choice reaction time is ~15 frames, we can see that Marth's throws range from difficult to completely impossible to DI on reaction. Especially note the up and b-throws.
Marth has enough time for a focused player to read and respond to DI on almost all throws across the cast. Certainly requires fast reflexes and attentiveness, but almost always possible (the exceptions being f-throw on some characters and up-throw on Jiggs at the outer limits of comboable %).
Sexy. The f and d throw can still often be teched out of. But... yeah, they're really good overall, especially the up-throw. The b-throw is good (lolwut).
jump startup: 4 ---- SH (FF) airtime: 30 (?) ----- FH (FF) airtime: 58 (?)
Meta Knight:
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = not yet tested ----- lag = [31 - 8 = 23] ----- 9 dmg (3 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = not yet tested ----- lag = [40 - 22 = 18] ----- 10 dmg (4 kbd)
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 32 ----- lag = [78* - 44 = 34] ----- 12 dmg
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 49 ----- lag = [90 - 76 = 14] ----- 11 dmg (1 kbd)
MK's f and d throw are two of the best in the game. The f-throw cannot be DIed on reaction and the d-throw has a minimum SET advantage of 35 (ie, at 0). That... is amazing. Fortunately the d-throw CG can be teched out of so it isn't stupidly broken. The move guarantees either a tech chase or combo against everyone, but the set lag is low enough (14) that very fast reflexes will be required to read DI.
Up-throw makes me laugh... it exists for koing careless snake players ;p but little else. B-throw is simply totally outclassed by the other two, it isn't a bad throw by any means, but the f and d-throw are both far more useful.
*aerial IASA occurs frame 78, mk lands frame 81 I believe.
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime (FF): 33 (23) ----- FH airtime (FF): 60 (35) ----- SJR airtime (FF): 50 (?)
up-air isjr: 14! This is notable as up-air sjrs before it autocancels, which is extremely uncommon. Equally important, isjr actually yields the best possible aerial followup window. Assuming you frame perfect land the up-air (frame 3), you have 9 frames of landing lag (in B+) as well as the 4 frame startup. Counting lag as starting frame 4 (right after the hitbox) and continuing through frame 13, with no other lag, you've got 10 frames of lag. Botching the ISJR will not autocancel this move, so there is a penalty for missing the frame.
One final and crucial point: sjr is the FIRST double jump, so the one which travels the highest. ISJR on MK's upair allows for absolutely unbelievable juggling close to the ground, something which normally would be limited by the decay of multiple jumps.
Ness:
f-throw (∂W): [53 - 27 = 26] ----- 11 damage
b-throw(∂W): [53 - 27 = 26] ----- 11 damage
u-throw(∂W): [56 - 36 = 20] ----- 10 damage
d-throw: [60 - 40 = 20] ----- 9 damage (4 kbd)
jump startup: 4 ----- lands whenever he d*** well pleases
Olimar
f-throw (∂W): lag = [32-4=28] fastest throw in the game in regards to release
b-throw (∂W): lag = [36-7=29]
u-throw (∂W): lag = [42-27=15]
d-throw (set): lag = [36-21=15]
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 43
Peach
f-throw: [36 - 17 = 19] ----- 10 dmg (8 kbd)
b-throw: [52 - 23 = 29] ----- 11 dmg (9 kbd)
u-throw: [52 - 28 = 24] ----- 8 dmg (6 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): [65 - 43 = 22] ----- 7 dmg
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 39
pikachu
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 33 ----- lag = [52-34=14] ----- 10 dmg (2 kbd)
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag= [50-31=29] ----- 9 dmg (9 kbd)
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 41 ----- lag = [38-18=20] ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 39 ----- lag = [46-23=23] ----- 8 dmg (3 kbd)
standing grab startup: 6 ----- dash grab startup: 9 ----- pivot grab startup: 10
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 40
Pit
jump startup: 4?
Rob
f-throw (∂W):
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw (∂W):
jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 50
Samus
f-throw: [42-16=36]
b-throw (∂W): [50-12=38]
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 44 ----- lag = [42-28=14]
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [42-19=23]
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 45 ----- FH airtime: 79 ----- sjr airtime: 67
zair ISJR lolwut: frame 60 exclusive
nair ISJR: frame 50 exclusive
neutral b ISJR: frame 45 exclusive
isjr possible for: all aerials
Sheik:
f-throw (set): [42-23=19]
b-throw (set): [38-18=20]
u-throw (set): [52-22=30]
d-throw (set): [56-33=23]
All of sheik's throws are DIable and the DI is readable by a skilled player. I don't think much hitstun testing is necessary at the moment. Sheik's throw combos are not exactly a new subject. Suffice to say she has excellent comboability on all throws, possibly the best overall throws of any character (certainly in the same class as MK's or Marth's).
Jump Startup: 4 ----- SH (FF) airtime: 30 (?) ----- FH (FF) airtime: 49
Snake
f-throw (∂W):
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw: set advantage (1 frame I think)
jump startup: 7 ----- SH airtime: 34 ----- FH airtime: 46
Sonic
f-throw: lag = 27
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw: lag = 15
d-throw: lag = 25
jump startup: 4?
Squirtle
f-throw (set): [34-16=18] ----- 9 dmg (7 kbd)
b-throw (set): [38-18=20] ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
u-throw (set): [40-19=21] ----- 11 dmg (9 kbd)
d-throw (set): [28-11=17] ----- 7 dmg (5 kbd)
jump startup: 4
Toon Link
f-throw (set): lag = [43-15=28] ----- 7 dmg (4 kbd)
b-throw (set): lag = [39-13=26] ----- 7 dmg (4 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = [52-30=22] ----- 7 dmg (2 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [52-25=27] ----- 7 dmg (4 kbd)
jump startup: 4?
wario
f-throw (∂W): [70-46=24] ----- 12 dmg
b-throw (set): [57-23=34] ----- 9 dmg (7 kbd)
u-throw (set): [47-27=20] ----- 10 dmg (6 kbd)
d-throw (set): [57-32=25] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
jump startup: 5?
wolf
f-throw (set): lag = [36-13=23] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
b-throw (set): lag = [55-31=24] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = [63-33=30] ----- 7 dmg (2 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [56-31=25] ----- 12 dmg (6 kbd)
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 29
Yoshi
f-throw (∂W):
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw (∂W):
jump startup: 5
Zelda
f-throw (∂W): [50 - 33 = 17] ----- 12 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [50 - 29 = 21] ----- 11 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [50 - 30 = 20] ----- 9 dmg
d-throw (set): [70 - 51 = 19] ----- pirouettes on yo' face
jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 39 ----- FH airtime: 68
Zero Suit Samus
jump startup: 4
I'm going to start keeping track of all of my recommendations and such for throw fixes in the beta build. I hope to go through the whole cast eventually. Some of my suggestions have already been taken by Cape, such as the Jigglypuff changes (also supported by Glick). The latest Beta is a much better base to work with than 5.0, so all suggestions I make assume the latest Beta is being modified.
Check my "Shameless Geekery" thread in the workshop subforum for crazy detailed information on all the characters I've made recommendations on, and most everyone else really. I've stopped updating the data on the beta here, and you should check that thread frequently since I update it every day.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257152
^^Awesome win juice in thread form^^
Principles (short version):
•ensure that no throw is overly weakened by the beta changes. ie, nerfed to death.
•Bring all throws to the minimum advantage (average adv if its a ∂W through) of jump startup + 1.
•minimize CGs
•optimize advantage windows such that combos are not completely removed by the hitstun reduction, but still require more tech skill to execute.
•no "vestigial limbs"
I intend to perfect the throw game in B+. While not every change I suggest will be taken, each suggestion I make carries weight because I am informed in regards to the raw numerical properties of nearly the entire cast's throw set AND because I will make recommendations based on an objective set of principles. I have begun posting this data in a separate thread, which I will be citing frequently.
ON HITSTUN
All information assumes hitstun is at .46, which is the level I believe to be ideal. I'll extrapolate at some point.
Balancing Principles:
Adding options > Reducing them.
1. Alter a throw based on its most significant use:
•ex. alter kbg or damage for KOing throws to augment the % it kills at. I do not believe any throw needs a nerf to its raw KOing power, though several warrent buffs.
2. Combo potential is the most significant aspect of a throw. It is crucial to understand all throw followups for all characters.
3. Combos are cool. Inescapable combos that work across all % are less cool. The combo game should emphasize skill in regards to execution, while still allowing important combos (like Rob's d-throw nair) to remain.
4. CGs that work past low % and cannot be DIed out of are undesirable. While not every CG must be removed, no moves should be altered in a way that makes CGing where it was not before.
•The ICs (other than the b-throw infinite, which was removed) are an exception to this rule due to it being avoidable and a core component of their game.
5. 0-D throw combos (not strings, true combos) will be removed.
•ex. Jigglypuff's up-throw to up-air to rest being removed. (Yes, I actually support this.)
••
this is why Jigglypuff doesn't get "true" throw combos. I still think she should be able to tech chase with DACUS though (working on figuring out how to optimize her throws still).6. Internally balance a character's throw game so that there isn't one option that is clearly the best in all situations.
•d-throw knee anyone?
7. Bring all throws that cannot KO to a minimum advantage standard. THIS DOES NOT MEAN MAKE ALL THROWS GOOD! It means no throw will be garbage. Some characters have no bad throws. Some characters also have fairly crappy throws (Link for example).
•The minimum standard should be an average initial advantage of jump startup + at least 1 (aerial speed has to be taken into account). Not every throw must combo, or kill, or even wrack up loads of damage. No throw should have an advantage lower than the standard however, as advantages lower than that basically signify that a throw is s***.
8. Characters with bad grabs shouldn't also have crappy throws. And no, no character that falls in that category is so covered in ****-sauce that it isn't a really significant weakness.
•ex. Link's throws should be improved given how slow and punishable his grab is.
9. Characters with great grabs can have great throws, but we should refrain from improving the most useful throw of any character with a great grab.
10. Buffing a throw to allow it to combo into any given move should be done such that the combo requires precise timing to execute. This avoids sloppy combos.
11. Sloppy combos = fail. Something doesn't have to be easy, it just has to be possible. In general changing hitstun to .46 improves this drastically.
Methods:
Some notes I thought people might find helpful for balancing their own mods as well as understanding what I'm doing. (again, until I write up a more detailed explanation of how hitstun scales with the modifier, assume .46)
CG's are fairly easy to remove by increasing bkb. Because hitstun scales directly with bkb, this will usually preserve aerial combos up until the character can't single jump far enough for the followup.
Increasing KBG will reduce the range within which a combo will function, it will also improve the killing power of a throw. It is also a way of removing CGs, though I prefer modifying bkb personally since it is a much cleaner method.
Bowser: only f-throw falls below the standard.
f-throw: advantage is close to 0 on average, but due to weight effects, the throw has a mediocre advantage on some of the lighter characters. A relatively minor tweek which would improve its average advantage somewhat without ****** floaties would be to decrease the release frame by 6 and the iasa by 12. This would reduce the variance, increase the overall speed of the throw, and should result in the minimum standard.
CF:
f-throw: no change necessary. This throw is no longer useless given the d- throw nerf. It will lead into a tech chase generally but has a respectable advantage window for comboing.
b-throw: ewww. +22 bkb and 7 off the iasa plz.
up-throw: Despite being mediocre advantage wise at 0, given its low growth its good.
d-throw: mostly sets up for tech chases now and ***** those who can't DI. Definitely still **** against floaty characters and much less so against FFers.
Charizard: not amazing throws, but not bad by any means. Given his amazing grab range, at the most I will be making minor adjustments.
Diddy Kong: one of the best throw sets on paper, and clearly good in practice. No need for any change here. All his throws greatly exceed the minimum standard.
ICs: the IC throws are fine and I really don't want to touch them or try and further nerf their CG game.
MK: Don'chu hurt him no mo'... I saw what'chu did to the nado!
Snake: he's good. Big surprise. Nothing needs to change here.
Yay, 5.0 is out. Time to cut it apart and look at it, no?
I've also been testing something that has, from what I know, been completely overlooked: throw frame information. Now, I'm sure most of you know that the release point on throws varies based on who's being thrown. Here's some other important points:
•the hitstun on all throws is consistent across the cast at 0% (same number of frames of stun). As would be expected, the hitstun growth rate varies by character.
•Throws with internal damage (ie, more than one hit) have a set amount of lag after the release point (I calculate the "lag" based on the frame the last hits damage is applied on... if you need clarification talk to me on AIM. This is the best and easiest way to find lag on throws).
•Throws without internally applied damage (single hit) have lag that varies across the cast. Testing these is a nightmare and as such I'm only going to be testing a few characters single hit throws.
•hitstun - lag = advantage on throw. -jump startup = aerial followup window.
••Given the above, throws with internal damage will yield one value for advantage on an opponent at 0%. Yay. That's measurable.
••Certain characters are far more susceptable to throw combos than others. Jigglypuff is the most susceptable out of the cast because she suffers the most hitstun growth, and yields the lowest lag values (by a large margin) for almost every type of variable throws (not 100% of the time, but exceptions are rare and even then she's near the worst).
••Certain characters are effectively equal for the purpose of determining variable lag on a throw.
-Known and tested examples are MK=Pikachu, Yoshi=Wario, Zelda=Sheik.
••ISJR frames normally occur exclusively at the first iasa frame after any aerial move. There are several exceptions/quirks , special cases include QA, Luigi's down-b, Bowser's klaw, etc. Here are the general rules:
-sjr always occurs on the landing frame
-sjr occurs on aerial IASA frames. The case of the klaw it may be explained by its transition into the grab.
-any moves with added aerial IASA frame will be able to SJR on those frames!
-the helpless state prevents sjr.
-sjr jumps have no startup lag, they are the same as the first double jump.
There should be a way to add in isjr frames. Making faux IASA frames (like with the klaw, sans grabbox) would essentially add a new element of technical skill. It would be more akin to autocanceling than l-canceling. Idk, its an option. We shouldn't necessarily do this, but you should all know that it is possible.
See MK upair data (below) for a good example.
note: unrelated but really useful formula: sstun = 2x (dmg/3 rounded down) + 5
values listed for grabs are the first frame that the character will grab on
Choice reaction time: I assume that the upper limit for this is 12, and that the majority of competitive players will have CRTs of between 12 and 15 frames. This only matters if the person actually knows how to properly DI a throw, and I assume that at a high level everyone will... eventually. Because DI is read the frame before release, ROF must be at least 13 for it to be possible (for anyone) to DI without predicting the throw. ROF must be at least 16 for it to be DI able by the majority of players. ROFs of 13-15 are a gray area in which those with very fast reflexes and excellent tech skill will be able to DI, while most will not. If an ROF is 30 or above, DI is totally possible and should be expected from anyone competent (thus why d-throw > rest doesn't work on non-n00bs more than one time, its got a very high rof).
-You can infer from this that each character will have a unique spread in regards to DIing ∂W throws. I'm making a chart to demonstrate how important this is.
x-hyphen-treme detail
throw data includes both the lag formula, damage, and initial hitstun
throw data includes the lag formula (or lag if its set), but not necessarily complete data
throw data isn't very complete at all
indicates a throw can KO. Not that its good as a KO, but simply that it can kill KP at ~175%. I feel it is safe to assume that any throw that can't kill Jiggs from the center of FD at 175 (w/o DI) isn't going to KO except in unusual circumstances. I'll put these up over time, just started tonight.∂W=weight dependent: the values for these throws are tested using Lucario, as per Magus's recommendation. Their data will be listed in this format.
DON'T BE LIKE LEAF! READ THIS SO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FORMULA POSTED
Lag on throw =[First actionable frame (ie, the frame a shield would first appear on) •w - Release frame •w]
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: each of the values modified by weight must be rounded up in order to calculate lag. Merely multiplying base lag by weight mod will NOT always or even often give you the correct value. w=1 for a set value throw, or the characters weight if its ∂W.
Bowser:
experimentally confirmed weight modifier: 5.0: 1.2 • GSH: 1.12
f-throw (∂W): [60 - 36 = 24] ----- 12 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [40 - 19 = 21] ----- 12 dmg
u-throw (set): [86 - 69 = 17] ----- 10 dmg (2kbd)
d-throw (set): [89 - 60 = 29] ----- ****
jump startup: 7 ----- SH airtime: 37 ----- sjr, ie. klaw hop airtime: 57
Cpt. Falcon:
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 33 ----- lag = [38 - 17 = 21] ----- 9 dmg (4 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 28 ----- lag = [48 - 15 = 33] ----- 9 dmg (4 kbd)
•FAIL throw
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 39 ----- lag = [41 - 17 = 24] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
•initial advantage 5.0 (GSH): 14 (9, growth is ~%/7)
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 41 (GSH: 36) ----- lag = [40 - 21 = 19] ----- 7 dmg
•initial advantage 5.0: 21 bowser - 29 JP GSH (15-23). DI + teching makes this irrelevant largely in the beta
jump startup: 4 ----- SH (FF) airtime: 31 (24?) ----- FH (FF) airtime: 52 (42)
standing grab: 7 ----- dash grab: 11 ----- pivot grab: 11
Falcon Charts posted here: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=1156546#p1156546
Falcon's throws all are DIable given a choice reaction time of ~15. Falcon's throw lag is high enough for you to be have some leeway in regards to reading DI. The d-throw provides enough hitstun that it isn't necessary to perfectly read DI (ie, buffering your followup). D-throw is super ****, up-throw is garden variety ****, f-throw is ok but inferior compared to the ****, b-throw is teh suck (especially at low %). Knee away!
Charizard:
f-throw (∂W): lag = [60 - 40 = 20] ----- 10 dmg
b-throw (∂W): lag = [33 - 16 = 17] ----- 10 dmg
u-throw (set): lag = [53 - 33 = 20] ----- 11 dmg (3 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [92 - 62 = 30] ----- 11 dmg (1 kbd)
jump startup: 5
DDD:
f-throw (set): lag = [41 - 17 = 24] ----- 12 dmg (6 kbd)
b-throw (set): lag = [45 - 22 = 23] ----- 14 dmg (9 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = [42 - 21 = 21] ----- 9 dmg (5 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [44 - 25 = 19] ----- 8 dmg (4 kbd)
Jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 40
Diddy Kong
f-throw (∂W): lag = [26 - 11 = 15] ----- 11 dmg
b-throw (∂W): lag = [26 - 9 = 17] ------ 10 dmg
u-throw (set): lag = [30 - 18 = 12] ----- 9 dmg (5 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): lag = [32 - 11 = 21] ----- 9 dmg
jump startup: 4
Donkey Kong
f(side) (∂W): lag = [40 - 13 = 27] ----- 8 dmg
f(up) (∂W): lag = [30 - 14 = 16] ----- 9 dmg
f(down) (∂W): lag = [40 - 16 = 24]
b-throw (∂W): lag = [40 - 15 = 25] ----- 11 dmg
u-throw (∂W): lag = [44 - 14 = 30] ----- 9 dmg
d-throw (∂W): lag = [60 - 41 = 19] ----- 7 dmg
Falco
f-throw: lag = 23
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw: lag = 11
jump startup: 5 ---- SH airtime: 27
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 11 ----- pivot grab: 9
Fox:
f-throw: lag = 23
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw: lag = 21
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 23
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 11 ----- pivot grab: 9
Game and Watch
f-throw (∂W): lag = [70 - 56 = 14] ----- 8 dmg
b-throw (∂W): lag = [70 - 56 = 14] ----- 8 dmg
u-throw (∂W): lag = [70 - 56 = 14] ----- 8 dmg
d-throw (∂W): lag = [55 - 44 = 11] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 4
Ganondorf
f-throw (set): initial landing w/o DI frame 44 ----- initial hitstun = 37, lag = [42 - 14 = 28] ----- 13 dmg (8 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 30, lag = 37 ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = 32 ----- 10 dmg (3 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 40 ----- lag = [40 - 23 = 17] ----- 7 dmg
jump startup: 6 ----- SH airtime: 31 ----- FH airtime: 49
Ice Climbers
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 40 ----- lag = [50 - 25 = 25] ----- 8 dmg (5kbd)
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag = [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 6 dmg
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 61 ----- lag = [54 - 26 = 28] ----- 6 dmg
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 24 ----- lag = [50 - 37 = 13] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 4
Ike
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 29 ----- lag = [26 - 9 = 17] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 29 ----- lag = [35 - 23 = 12] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 41 ----- lag = [52 - 29 = 23] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 50 ----- lag = [60 - 42 = 18] ----- 6 dmg (4 kbd)
jump startup: 5?
Ivysaur
f-throw (∂W): [34-16=18] ----- 8 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [34-18=16] ----- 10 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [28-13=15] ----- 10 dmg
d-throw (∂W): [35-19=16] ----- 10 dmg
jump startup: 4
Jigglypuff
f-throw (set): [38 - 13 = 25] ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
b-throw (∂W): [50 - 26 = 24] ----- 10 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [42 - 9 = 31] ----- 10 dmg
d-throw (set): [90 - 67 = 23]
jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 42
I'm not sharing the JP data until after BtL2, if ever. Her throws aren't broke in any way shape or form.
Kirby
f-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 25 ----- lag = [62-45=17] ----- 8 dmg
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 34 ----- lag = [53-33=20] ----- 8 dmg
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag = [80-51=29] ----- 10 dmg
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [90-60=30] ----- 12 dmg (2 kbd)
Kirby's throws are good, but fall far short of being broken in any way.
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 41
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 10 ----- pivot grab: 10
Link
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [43-15=28] ----- 7 dmg (4kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = 34 ----- lag = [40-15=25] ----- 7 dmg (4kbd)
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 34 ----- lag = [50-28=22] ----- 7dmg (2kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = 26
jump startup: 6?
standing grab: 12 ----- dash grab: 14 ----- pivot grab: 15
Lucario:
f-throw (∂W): 7 dmg
b-throw (∂W): 10 dmg
u-throw (set): lag = 21 ----- 5 dmg (4 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): 10 dmg
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 42
standing grab: 6 ----- dash grab: 8 ----- pivot grab: 9
Lucas
f-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 57 ----- lag = [53-23=30] ----- 10 dmg
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 57 ----- lag = [53-20=33] ---- 10 dmg
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 47 ----- lag = [55-25=30] ---- 10 dmg
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag = [50-41=9] ------ 7dmg
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 32 ----- FH airtime: 55 ----- sjr airtime: 78
soft landing lag: 2 ----- hard landing lag: 5
standing grab: 13 ----- dash grab: 16 ----- pivot grab: 15
Luigi
f-throw (∂W): [28 - 13 = 15] ----- 9 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [67 - 44 = 33] ----- 12 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 8 dmg
d-throw (∂W): [41 - 18 = 23] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 48
Mario
f-throw (∂W): [28 - 13 = 15] ----- 9 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [67 - 44 = 33] ----- 12 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 8 dmg
d-throw (∂W): [40 - 18 = 22] ----- 6 dmg
jump startup: 5 ---- SH airtime: 35
Martha
f-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 38 ----- lag = [32 - 15 = 17]
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 38 ----- lag = [35 - 8 = 27]
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [33 - 13 = 20]
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [43 - 16 = 27]
Given that the choice reaction time is ~15 frames, we can see that Marth's throws range from difficult to completely impossible to DI on reaction. Especially note the up and b-throws.
Marth has enough time for a focused player to read and respond to DI on almost all throws across the cast. Certainly requires fast reflexes and attentiveness, but almost always possible (the exceptions being f-throw on some characters and up-throw on Jiggs at the outer limits of comboable %).
Sexy. The f and d throw can still often be teched out of. But... yeah, they're really good overall, especially the up-throw. The b-throw is good (lolwut).
jump startup: 4 ---- SH (FF) airtime: 30 (?) ----- FH (FF) airtime: 58 (?)
Meta Knight:
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = not yet tested ----- lag = [31 - 8 = 23] ----- 9 dmg (3 kbd)
b-throw (set): initial hitstun = not yet tested ----- lag = [40 - 22 = 18] ----- 10 dmg (4 kbd)
u-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 32 ----- lag = [78* - 44 = 34] ----- 12 dmg
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 49 ----- lag = [90 - 76 = 14] ----- 11 dmg (1 kbd)
MK's f and d throw are two of the best in the game. The f-throw cannot be DIed on reaction and the d-throw has a minimum SET advantage of 35 (ie, at 0). That... is amazing. Fortunately the d-throw CG can be teched out of so it isn't stupidly broken. The move guarantees either a tech chase or combo against everyone, but the set lag is low enough (14) that very fast reflexes will be required to read DI.
Up-throw makes me laugh... it exists for koing careless snake players ;p but little else. B-throw is simply totally outclassed by the other two, it isn't a bad throw by any means, but the f and d-throw are both far more useful.
*aerial IASA occurs frame 78, mk lands frame 81 I believe.
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime (FF): 33 (23) ----- FH airtime (FF): 60 (35) ----- SJR airtime (FF): 50 (?)
up-air isjr: 14! This is notable as up-air sjrs before it autocancels, which is extremely uncommon. Equally important, isjr actually yields the best possible aerial followup window. Assuming you frame perfect land the up-air (frame 3), you have 9 frames of landing lag (in B+) as well as the 4 frame startup. Counting lag as starting frame 4 (right after the hitbox) and continuing through frame 13, with no other lag, you've got 10 frames of lag. Botching the ISJR will not autocancel this move, so there is a penalty for missing the frame.
One final and crucial point: sjr is the FIRST double jump, so the one which travels the highest. ISJR on MK's upair allows for absolutely unbelievable juggling close to the ground, something which normally would be limited by the decay of multiple jumps.
Ness:
f-throw (∂W): [53 - 27 = 26] ----- 11 damage
b-throw(∂W): [53 - 27 = 26] ----- 11 damage
u-throw(∂W): [56 - 36 = 20] ----- 10 damage
d-throw: [60 - 40 = 20] ----- 9 damage (4 kbd)
jump startup: 4 ----- lands whenever he d*** well pleases
Olimar
f-throw (∂W): lag = [32-4=28] fastest throw in the game in regards to release
b-throw (∂W): lag = [36-7=29]
u-throw (∂W): lag = [42-27=15]
d-throw (set): lag = [36-21=15]
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 43
Peach
f-throw: [36 - 17 = 19] ----- 10 dmg (8 kbd)
b-throw: [52 - 23 = 29] ----- 11 dmg (9 kbd)
u-throw: [52 - 28 = 24] ----- 8 dmg (6 kbd)
d-throw (∂W): [65 - 43 = 22] ----- 7 dmg
jump startup: 4 ---- SH airtime: 39
pikachu
f-throw (set): initial hitstun = 33 ----- lag = [52-34=14] ----- 10 dmg (2 kbd)
b-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 42 ----- lag= [50-31=29] ----- 9 dmg (9 kbd)
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 41 ----- lag = [38-18=20] ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
d-throw (set): initial hitstun = 39 ----- lag = [46-23=23] ----- 8 dmg (3 kbd)
standing grab startup: 6 ----- dash grab startup: 9 ----- pivot grab startup: 10
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 40
Pit
jump startup: 4?
Rob
f-throw (∂W):
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw (∂W):
jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 50
Samus
f-throw: [42-16=36]
b-throw (∂W): [50-12=38]
u-throw (set): initial hitstun = 44 ----- lag = [42-28=14]
d-throw (∂W): initial hitstun = 36 ----- lag = [42-19=23]
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 45 ----- FH airtime: 79 ----- sjr airtime: 67
zair ISJR lolwut: frame 60 exclusive
nair ISJR: frame 50 exclusive
neutral b ISJR: frame 45 exclusive
isjr possible for: all aerials
Sheik:
f-throw (set): [42-23=19]
b-throw (set): [38-18=20]
u-throw (set): [52-22=30]
d-throw (set): [56-33=23]
All of sheik's throws are DIable and the DI is readable by a skilled player. I don't think much hitstun testing is necessary at the moment. Sheik's throw combos are not exactly a new subject. Suffice to say she has excellent comboability on all throws, possibly the best overall throws of any character (certainly in the same class as MK's or Marth's).
Jump Startup: 4 ----- SH (FF) airtime: 30 (?) ----- FH (FF) airtime: 49
Snake
f-throw (∂W):
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw: set advantage (1 frame I think)
jump startup: 7 ----- SH airtime: 34 ----- FH airtime: 46
Sonic
f-throw: lag = 27
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw: lag = 15
d-throw: lag = 25
jump startup: 4?
Squirtle
f-throw (set): [34-16=18] ----- 9 dmg (7 kbd)
b-throw (set): [38-18=20] ----- 10 dmg (5 kbd)
u-throw (set): [40-19=21] ----- 11 dmg (9 kbd)
d-throw (set): [28-11=17] ----- 7 dmg (5 kbd)
jump startup: 4
Toon Link
f-throw (set): lag = [43-15=28] ----- 7 dmg (4 kbd)
b-throw (set): lag = [39-13=26] ----- 7 dmg (4 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = [52-30=22] ----- 7 dmg (2 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [52-25=27] ----- 7 dmg (4 kbd)
jump startup: 4?
wario
f-throw (∂W): [70-46=24] ----- 12 dmg
b-throw (set): [57-23=34] ----- 9 dmg (7 kbd)
u-throw (set): [47-27=20] ----- 10 dmg (6 kbd)
d-throw (set): [57-32=25] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
jump startup: 5?
wolf
f-throw (set): lag = [36-13=23] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
b-throw (set): lag = [55-31=24] ----- 7 dmg (3 kbd)
u-throw (set): lag = [63-33=30] ----- 7 dmg (2 kbd)
d-throw (set): lag = [56-31=25] ----- 12 dmg (6 kbd)
jump startup: 4 ----- SH airtime: 29
Yoshi
f-throw (∂W):
b-throw (∂W):
u-throw (∂W):
d-throw (∂W):
jump startup: 5
Zelda
f-throw (∂W): [50 - 33 = 17] ----- 12 dmg
b-throw (∂W): [50 - 29 = 21] ----- 11 dmg
u-throw (∂W): [50 - 30 = 20] ----- 9 dmg
d-throw (set): [70 - 51 = 19] ----- pirouettes on yo' face
jump startup: 5 ----- SH airtime: 39 ----- FH airtime: 68
Zero Suit Samus
jump startup: 4
