Super Mario Bros. Characters Discussion.

[Spydr Enzo]

Uhh no... ?
Kinopio wasn't playable in NSMBW, only his dumb*** cousins were.

Kino or Kinopio, you think anyone actually cares? It's still Toad. No one is going to be disappointed because they're playing as "Kinopio's ******* cousins"...

I also doubt Sakurai gives much of a ****. He's not going to look at Toad in NSMBWii and say, "Oh, that isn't Kinopio. It's just a generic Toad. Therefore, Toad sucks." ...No. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Kino or Kinopio, you think anyone actually cares? It's still Toad. No one is going to be disappointed because they're playing as "Kinopio's ******* cousins"...

I cared that we got a 4-player adventure Mario game with two random Toads instead of Peach and Kinopio, or anyone else actually.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I cared that we got a 4-player adventure Mario game with two random Toads instead of Peach and Kinopio, or anyone else actually.

Regardless of whether you liked it or not (keep in mind that you don't decide the roster), a playable Toad is still recognition for Toad that many other people most likely did appreciate, whether or not adding two Toad's was a "lazy move" by Nintendo. Yeah, those people exist.

Also, how many mainstream fans do you actually think know the difference between Toad and Kinopio?

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Also, how many mainstream fans do you actually think know the difference between Toad and Kinopio?

You mean A Toad or THE Toad ?
I don't think you're giving people enough credit, I'm pretty sure alot of people know who A Toad(the generic citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom) is and who THE Toad(Kinopio; the character that is playable in SMB2, Wario's Woods and spin offs) is.

 

[jigglover]

You mean A Toad or THE Toad ?

Lol. I guess he means A Toad and Kinopio, but Enzo isn't giving anyone enough credit, when I first got into Mario not to long ago (believe it or not, the first main-stream mario game I actually LIKED was sunshine, and it hasn't been beat yet) but I figured out, hmm.. this is the only Toad playable in Mario party 4 AND double dash (except Toadette in double dash, but I was THAT clever!!!) then with party 5 I was certain! Clever aren't I?

 

[Spydr Enzo]

No, it's just that I really don't think anyone gives a crap whether or not they're playing as A Toad or THE Toad, as long as it's some form of Toad. People might be able to tell the difference, but like I said, no one really cares besides hardcore fans.

when I first got into Mario not to long ago (believe it or not, the first main-stream mario game I actually LIKED was sunshine, and it hasn't been beat yet) but I figured out, hmm.. this is the only Toad playable in Mario party 4 AND double dash (except Toadette in double dash, but I was THAT clever!!!) then with party 5 I was certain! Clever aren't I?

Uh, Toad wasn't playable in Mario Party 4... I'm not really sure what you are trying to say.

 

[jigglover]

Actually, I'm still not a hard-core Mario gamer, but I still find it stupid how THE toad is getting replaced by generic ones.

 

[Arcadenik]

Why is this an issue? Palette swaps solve the generic argument.

Red spots/blue vest = THE Toad (Kinopio) or a random Toad who looks like Kinopio seen in SM64, SMRPG, and Paper Mario games
Red spots/red vest = Mushroom Retainers (they are all red in the NES version of SMB1), red Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games (Captain of the Toad Brigade, also known as Kinopio)
Blue spots/blue vest = Kinopio (he's all blue in the NES version of SMB2), blue Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games, Blue Toad in NSMB games
Yellow spots/yellow vest = yelllow Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games, Yellow Toad in NSMB games
Green spots/green vest = green Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games (Banktoad)
Purple spots/purple vest = purple Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games (Mailtoad)

Bottom line, if Toad is in Smash, it doesn't matter if it is A Toad or THE Toad because they all look the same! We couldn't even tell if the Yoshi in Smash is A Yoshi or THE Yoshi so why is this an issue for Toad?

 

[jigglover]

Why is this an issue? Palette swaps solve the generic argument.

Red spots/blue vest = THE Toad (Kinopio) or a random Toad who looks like Kinopio seen in SM64, SMRPG, and Paper Mario games
Red spots/red vest = Mushroom Retainers (they are all red in the NES version of SMB1), red Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games (Captain of the Toad Brigade, also known as Kinopio)
Blue spots/blue vest = Kinopio (he's all blue in the NES version of SMB2), blue Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games, Blue Toad in NSMB games
Yellow spots/yellow vest = yelllow Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games, Yellow Toad in NSMB games
Green spots/green vest = green Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games (Banktoad)
Purple spots/purple vest = purple Toad in Sunshine and Galaxy games (Mailtoad)

Bottom line, if Toad is in Smash, it doesn't matter if it is A Toad or THE Toad because they all look the same! We couldn't even tell if the Yoshi in Smash is A Yoshi or THE Yoshi so why is this an issue for Toad?

Because there is a THE Toad, there isn't a THE yoshi because there are millions of identical Yoshis of the Green colour, along with millions in orange, black, grey, blue, light blue, red, pink, purple, every other colour in existence! The Yoshi in Super mario 64 DS could be the Yoshi in Mario Kart 7, or maybe that's the one in galaxy 2 - wait, is THAT the Yoshi from 64 DS maybe, no one knows!

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

I cared that we got a 4-player adventure Mario game with two random Toads instead of Peach and Kinopio, or anyone else actually.

I never liked the idea of putting in two random Toads in NSMBWii anyway, Nintendo's explanation for not putting in Wario or Waluigi was absurd.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I never liked the idea of putting in two random Toads in NSMBWii anyway, Nintendo's explanation for not putting in Wario or Waluigi was absurd.

Their explanation was perfectly valid. They wanted characters with similar body types and identical abilities to Mario & Luigi.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Their explanation was perfectly valid. They wanted characters with similar body types and identical abilities to Mario & Luigi.

Uhh no.
Nintendo's explanation to why Wario and Waluigi aren't in NSMBWii is that "it wouldn't make sense for them to rescue a princess".

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Uhh no.
Nintendo's explanation to why Wario and Waluigi aren't in NSMBWii is that "it wouldn't make sense for them to rescue a princess".

Ah, okay. I guess I mixed up Nintendo's official explanation with the justifications I've seen elsewhere. My mistake.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

i don't see that as a ridiculous argument really. Wario and Waluigi hate Mario and Luigi, so for them to work together would be weird. Especially when Wario and Waluigi would have nothing to gain from saving Peach because as part of their character, they are for lack of a better word, scumbags and only look to help themselves. But thats just how i see it

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Their explanation was perfectly valid. They wanted characters with similar body types and identical abilities to Mario & Luigi.

From what i read, they said they had to "give Wario a fart attack" if they were to put him in. Pretty stupid reason, consindering Wario never farted in any of the Wario Land games.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

From what i read, they said they had to "give Wario a fart attack" if they were to put him in. Pretty stupid reason, consindering Wario never farted in any of the Wario Land games.

Wario's abilities are still wildly different from Mario's in those games, though.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Wario's abilities are still wildly different from Mario's in those games, though.

Run, jump, grab and throw items. Wario does all of it, so it wouldn't really have been a problem. He was given the same mechanic as Mario in SM64DS and it worked just fine.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Even so, his and Waluigi's body types are very different than Marios or Luigis. Even so, I do think there were better choices than two Toads (Toad & Toadette maybe?).

It's clear you aren't going to change your opinion no matter what, so we should really stop this here before the thread derails even further.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Yeah, let's.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Ah, okay. I guess I mixed up Nintendo's official explanation with the justifications I've seen elsewhere. My mistake.

And where did you find these justifications ?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

And where did you find these justifications ?

I can't recall, I just feel like I've heard other people give them. It could just be I'm mixing up my personal reasoning with what I've heard.

EDIT: It certainly wasn't any sort of official statement by Nintendo. I do know that for sure.

 

[jigglover]

i don't see that as a ridiculous argument really. Wario and Waluigi hate Mario and Luigi, so for them to work together would be weird. Especially when Wario and Waluigi would have nothing to gain from saving Peach because as part of their character, they are for lack of a better word, scumbags and only look to help themselves. But thats just how i see it

Super mario 64 DS was where Mario, Luigi and WARIO got trapped trying to save the princess, with Yoshi ending up saving them! So Wario isn't weird for NSWBW NSMBW, he's tried it before.

In relation to Waluigi, the whole gang has teamed up plenty of times in spin offs too, the first one I can think of is Mario Party 9's story mode!

 

[Arcadenik]

Super mario 64 DS was where Mario, Luigi and WARIO got trapped trying to save the princess, with Yoshi ending up saving them! So Wario isn't weird for NSWBW NSMBW, he's tried it before.

In relation to Waluigi, the whole gang has teamed up plenty of times in spin offs too, the first one I can think of is Mario Party 9's story mode!

The reason Wario was there was because he crashed the party because he wanted cake (same with Luigi). Peach only invited Mario. Yoshi had to rescue them all because Yoshi was wondering why Mario hasn't come out of the castle yet. Yoshi went in the castle to check on Mario and found Mario, Toad(s), and Peach missing.

 

[jigglover]

The reason Wario was there was because he crashed the party because he wanted cake (same with Luigi). Peach only invited Mario. Yoshi had to rescue them all because Yoshi was wondering why Mario hasn't come out of the castle yet. Yoshi went in the castle to check on Mario and found Mario, Toad(s), and Peach missing.

Actually Lakitu told Yoshi, Yoshi was sleeping on the roof when they went in.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

How about the fact that Wario and Waluigi have never been playable in a main-line Mario 2D platformer (Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land does not count)?

Is that enough of a reason for those two to not be in a NSMB game? Holy eff, there's just no reason to expect it. It makes no sense.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

How about the fact that Wario and Waluigi have never been playable in a main-line Mario 2D platformer (Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land does not count)?

Is that enough of a reason for those two to not be in a NSMB game? Holy eff, there's just no reason to expect it. It makes no sense.

Toad never was playable in a 2-D Mario platformer (SMB2 dosen't count, since it's a port of Doki Doki Panic), and yet, two guys from his species were playable in NSMBW.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Toad never was playable in a 2-D Mario platformer (SMB2 dosen't count, since it's a port of Doki Doki Panic), and yet, two guys from his species were playable in NSMBW.

I think SMB2 counts, since it's included in Mario All-stars, and the remake where they added a lot of stuff

Peach's moveset is also based heavily on Mario 2

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Toad never was playable in a 2-D Mario platformer (SMB2 dosen't count, since it's a port of Doki Doki Panic), and yet, two guys from his species were playable in NSMBW.

You... you're joking, right?

Super Mario Bros. 2 doesn't count? How do you explain a lot of Peach's moves (Vegetables, floating)? How do you explain the stage in SSBM based off that game being called Mushroom Kingdom II? How do you explain Birdo and Shy Guy being considered Mario characters despite debuting in Doki Doki Panic? How do you explain the game being remade and enhanced twice within the MARIO series (not the Doki Doki Panic series)? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

And again, no one gives a crap if it was "two guys from his species" and not, the real damn Toad. How many people do you actually think are aware of the fact that there is such a thing as THE Toad and A Toad, besides hardcore Nintendo geeks/Nintendo forum-frequenters (even then, do you actually think most of them will even care in the slightest?)? As long as people get to play as Toad, they don't give a crap if it's A Toad or THE Toad. It's freaking Toad.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Well let's pretend you're right and SMB2 doesn't count (even though it does for reasons stated above).

Toad(s) is/are still a constant presence in 2D Mario games. At the end of Castles, in Item Houses, and scattered throughout.

Wario has his own thing going on with Wario Land and WarioWare, and Waluigi only gets the spotlight in sports/spinoffs.

Saying that it doesn't make sense for them not to be in NSMB games is silly. Not that I would oppose the idea, but it's certainly not a must have or no-brainer.

 

[Onyx Oblivian]

You... you're joking, right?
It's freaking Toad.

Spydr, I think you're getting boiled up for the wrong reasons haha

JohnnyKiller45, from what I understand, is saying Toad from "SMB2" doesn't count because GiantBreadbug said the Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land didn't count as a title that would qualify him to be Player 3 in the NSMB games.

I don't think we're even talking about character potential right now. (which we should)

They're talking about justification for Wario and Waluigi to be in NSMB games.

/Hoping to clear things up

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Well if that's the case, then that's dumb. Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land is not a mainline 2D Mario platformer. Neither is Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. They're both the geneses of their series.

Those are games in which you do not control Mario as a main character. Hence the subtitles. That is why Wario Land does not count.

SMB2 was a game in the mainline 2D Mario series (even if it was ported from an existing game) that featured multiple playable characters, one of them being Mario.

It was a silly way of trying to turn words back on someone.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Spydr, I think you're getting boiled up for the wrong reasons haha

JohnnyKiller45, from what I understand, is saying Toad from "SMB2" doesn't count because GiantBreadbug said the Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land didn't count as a title that would qualify him to be Player 3 in the NSMB games.

So you're saying it was an attempt to counter the "Wario Land doesn't count" argument? Even then, it's a terrible counter-argument. SML3: Wario Land is the beginning of Wario's own franchise, like Breadbug said. It's just as much a Mario game as any of the other Wario Lands. Despite being ported, SMB2 is highly considered a Mario game for the reasons already stated.

I don't think we're even talking about character potential right now. (which we should)

They're talking about justification for Wario and Waluigi to be in NSMB games.

Hm, I see. I'm sure if I read a few pages back (which I really don't feel like doing right now), this would have spawned from a Waluigi Vs. Toad debate or something.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

No, I'm not joking. I'm dead ******* serious right here, since, video games are serious business. And I'm not Sakurai, so don't ask me about Peach's moveset.
(also, try to not make too many rhetorical questions in your posts, you'd be making a favor to me and you)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Enemies from Super Mario 2 are also used throughout the mario series such as Birdo, shy guys, snif its, bob-ombs, Spinies (Or whatever they are called).

Bob-ombs first appeared for Mario 2 and came right back for Mario 3. Shy guys became a major part of the series since Yoshi's island I believe, making it seem like their role in Mario 2 was due to mario's subconscious creating enemies that terrified him as a child

 

[Spydr Enzo]

(also, try to not make too many rhetorical questions in your posts, you'd be making a favor to me and you)

Just trying to prove a point, that's all.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You know, i was thinking about what makes each possible Mario character more likely to be included than the others. So i looked at it a more in depth:

First Appearances:
Toad (Obviously older than the others)
Waluigi (2000, Mario Tennis)
Paper Mario (2001, Paper Mario)
Bowser Jr. (2002, Super Mario Sunshine)

So Toad has obviously been around the longest, while the other three follow each other very closely. Not that it matters, but the time they have been around may have something to do with it.

How about their roles or side appearances?

Waluigi has only appeared in spin-off games, appearing in Mario Party's, Mario Kart's, Mario Tennis/Golf and even Dance Dance Revolution. But never an actual Super Mario game. Toad and Bowser Jr have played roles in numerous Mario games. Toad is a main character in SMB2, but since then hasn't had a very exciting role. Bowser Jr. has been a side villain for the most part, helping his father take down his long time rival. Paper Mario is obviously the main character of his own franchise, which is given another installment once per console. (or spin-off. i consider it a bit of both)

Again, this may not matter, but Waluigi has the most appearances, but not in the most important of games. When i see people say he could represent the spin off games, i say guess what? So could everybody else, including everyone who is already in Smash Bros. Invalid argument if you ask me. Bowser Jr and Toad have seen a decline in "important" appearances as of late. Paper Mario has a game every few years. I don't know that there is any decisive answer to who would benefit from what here. Bowser Jr and Toad have kind of joined Waluigi in the spin-off boat.

Popularity:
I'm not entirely sure how each character fares, but Waluigi is very popular in Japan (While still maintaining a strong hate base as well), while Toad and Bowser Jr appear to be more popular in the West. Paper Mario doesn't have as strong a fanbase, but i wouldn't always say the character with the largest fan base will get in.

To prevent this from turning into a Wall 'o text, this will be the last thing for now. Moveset potential:

Waluigi could use stuff from the spinoffs. However, Peach already does this with her golf club and racket.

Paper Mario and Bowser Jr have imo, the best potential movesets out of the four. They have several items/attacks from the games they have starred in, and could be generally creative. (However i believe that there is a chance, however small, that they could be turned into clones)

Toad is a hard one for me. I don't see much in him. Peach already has the vegetable attack, and she uses Toad as one of her specials as well. To add, Toad's arms are ridiculously tiny, about the size Pikachu. Pikachu doesn't even use his arms for anything in his moveset, and i highly doubt Toad could realistically use them in a fight. I find that Toad's moveset would have to be mainly projectiles, which i wouldnt really care for. They may even have to edit Peach's moveset just to give him an attack.

Maybe it's just me, but these are some of the things i consider when discussing the Mario characters up for inclusion, if we even get one at all.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Moveset potential is very subjective.

For example, give me a day, and I could whip up a moveset that doesn't involve gimmicky moves for either Waluigi or Toad.

Now imagine Sakurai, being the wizard that he is, working on one of those two. He's made fun characters out of virtually no "moveset potential."

Honestly the answer to a Mario newcomer isn't a very easy one. Subjectivity is the name of the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Waluigi has numerous strange abilities at his disposal, such as swimming in midair, spinning in an actual tornado (in comparison to Mario's/Luigi's tornado moves in Smash), teleporting in puffs of purple fire, spawning purple thorns, as well as using a thorn whip.
He's also got a four appendaged backpack to toss various objects with and has superior leg strength in comparison to the other characters, being able to kick Bowser into submission, as well as being able to stomp people into the ground.
In terms of weaponry, he's also got an affinity with Bob-Ombs (not unique, I know), a potted Piranha Plant, Sparky Stickers (well, he favors them, anyway), and Whiskered Eggplants.

And even outside from that, Peach only uses a tennis racket and golf club for ONE MOVE. So to say that she "covers the spin-offs" is being undermining.
She also uses a frying pan. This comes from Super Mario RPG. She represents the RPGs. Paper Mario is unneeded. She pulls out Vegetables. This comes from SMB2. She represents that game. Toad is unneeded.
See how faulty that logic is?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

]And even outside from that, Peach only uses a tennis racket and golf club for ONE MOVE. So to say that she "covers the spin-offs" is being undermining.
She also uses a frying pan. This comes from Super Mario RPG. She represents the RPGs. Paper Mario is unneeded. She pulls out Vegetables. This comes from SMB2. She represents that game. Toad is unneeded.
See how faulty that logic is?

This is the Internet. Who said anything about logic?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

exactly. i just like to look at what makes them different from each other. Im not saying Toad couldnt have a move set. Im just saying that i cant see him using his arms because of their size. otherwise im also concerned that it mainly be projectiles. but i would love to be pleasantly surprised