Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[StrawHatX]

The last Direct irked me for awhile because I just wasn’t a fan of the final three characters. Not that I dislike them, I just couldn’t understand why they were saved for the last Direct when the Belmonts or K. Rool would have been perfect IMO as the last reveals.

Ken is the original Echo Fighter of gaming so I get his inclusion. I’m not a big fan of Street Fighter, but I know it’s popular. But we all knew he was just going to be another Ryu.

Piranha Plant annoyed me just because like a lot of others at the time I just could not comprehend why we got a generic Mario enemy over characters like Isaac or Waluigi. This game is supposed to be almost like a nod to the fans. And they had the damn ballots. They knew they had all these popular, interesting characters and yet they went with the plant. (I’ve warmed up to PP a lot though).

Incineroar was probably the one that bothered me the most at the time. I understand he was more of a tribute to the VA that passed away and Sakurai wanted a wrestler character, so I get it. But Pokemon already has so many freakin characters. Gen 7 itself is already 2 years old and Gen 8 is out next year. Pokemon doesn’t need anymore advertising. It’s fine. Every Pokémon game that comes out will sell millions.

 

[FlawedAI]

Because if you only make the game for long time fans, you alienate the casual audience.

Pokémon is also the biggest media franchise in the world.

Yeah, but are casuals gonna recognize Incineroar? If you want casual fans with Pokemon, you get Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, not someone from Gen 7. Besides, casuals also got characters like Daisy, Inkling, Ken, and Isabelle. I feel Incineroar is wholly unnecessary and adds nothing new. Oh another fire-weidling grappler? Great, throw him onto the pile with Falcon, Charizard, Bowser, etc. I know the comparison isn't 100% accurate, but I think the way it was communicated was poor at best. The ballot choices were revealed first, leading to hype for others to be revealed later on, but we got the casual picks. It's worrying to think that even with the ballot, we influenced the choice of three uniques, and two echoes. That's not even half the newcomers. (Depending on how you view Simon/Richter. I don't consider them ballot choices, because I think they had a good chance with Konami returning anyway). Now, the "everyone is here" thing comes from the ballot, so I guess you could count that, but I think it's different when considering newcomers/veterans. I just feel Pokemon's treatment goes beyond what's required. If no new Pokemon adds anything, don't add one. Pokemon has 10 unique characters (with one being a semi-clone) including Incineroar, which is more than Mario, and that's including Daisy. I think that's too much.

Oh come on. You're losing your respect for Sakurai just because he wanted to include a few characters of his own? Is he not allowed to do that? Why should he need to pander to fans all the time? We already got Ridley, Simon, Dark Samus, K. Rool, and many other fan-favorites. It's not Sakurai's fault that Nintendo doesn't want anything to do with Golden Sun anymore, and that's why it's a good thing Isaac fans are trying to raise awareness of Golden Sun so it can be possibly revived again at some point. Stop being so ungrateful. Sakurai has worked incredibly hard and tried to please many fans while also following his own creative vision. It's his game. He can do what he wants with it.

Wait, wait, pause. Right. There. That's the attitude I hate! "Stop being so ungrateful! You can't criticize Sakurai cuz he works so hard!" I despise this mentality. I understand Sakurai works himself to death every Smash game, and I don't hold him as the greatest game designer ever (in my opinion) for nothing. I know no other designer comes close to the passion Sakurai puts into every game, and I respect the hell outta him for it. However, I can very much criticize what I want. I'm the one paying for this game. I've already preloaded the game on my Switch, plus the Fighter Pass, because I'm not going to let botched marketing ruin what could be the best crossover ever. I know it's his game. Doesn't mean I can't have my own wants regarding it. I can be disappointed in the character choices (I am) and I can be disappointed in the single-player (no Home-Run Contest? Really?).

I lost some respect for Sakurai because of communication. It might not all have been his fault, but he had parts in all of this. The hype cycle started with Ridley, and peaked on 8/8. Simon PLUS King K. Rool? With more to come! Crazy! Then Isabelle. I thought "that's fine, it was a general direct. It didn't have to be a heavy hitter." The 11/1. And two casual choices to finish it off? Really? The "hype graph" for Ultimate would have peaked 8/8 and gone downhill fast starting in September. He went on record saying K. Rool, Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus got in because of the fans. This led to fans expecting more fan choices, and Isaac was a frontrunner. Why talk about how the ballot influenced the choices when the remaining three characters are all not what I would call "fan favorites". Isabelle was by far the most popular during the ballot era, and Incineroar didn't even exist yet. I think the reveal schedule was severely misplayed. Switch Incineroar and K. Rool, and the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad. We would've seen a casual pick already, meaning they'd be in the game, softening the Isabelle blow, plus he would've been revealed alongside Simon, so we would've had a hype third party to discuss. So when 11/1 comes, the final newcomer revealed is the globally requested King K. Rool. Amazing! Sounds awesome! Because of the heavy emphasis of the fighter's order, with it being the order they were revealed, Sakurai should've realized making Incineroar last would've been a poor idea. He messed up. Period. We'd be praising the game non-stop if K. Rool was the last reveal. Sadly, it didn't happen that way. Sakurai showed that despite the ballot, he's still exceptionally out of touch with the fans. Not to mention the brutal reveal of Piranha Plant after a massacre of deconfirmations. The showing of Shadow and Isaac, two highly requested fighters, in the last Direct, rather than a still rough, but acceptable early reveal at E3 or 8/8 would've been fine. Plant's reveal seemed in such poor taste after just killing so, so many fan's hopes. Just look at the Nintendo New York reaction. Everyone groaned when Isaac was shown. Sakurai failed the fans in the last months leading up to Ultimate. That's why he lost some of my respect. He can earn it back by fighting for fan favorites for DLC, but I'm not so certain that will happen.

 

[Silo777]

Plus, a reminder that even without Inkling or Isabelle or Daisy (who for some reason get labeled the casual characters), the Metroid series sold around 17 million copies (with the Prime games selling around 4 million), Castlevania sold around 20 million, Fire Emblem Awakening alone sold around 2 million, the original DKC trilogy sold 17 million, and Street Fighter has sold over 42 million copies and made more than $1 billion in arcade sales. What I’m saying is, if casual audiences don’t recognize any of these characters, I think Smash is just not the game for them.



I thought Smash 4’s DLC was going to be the Ballot. It was not. Then I thought Ultimate was going to be the Ballot, it wasn’t either. I don’t really have the strength to expect Ultimate’s DLC to be Ballot based, especially when their calling card was Piranha Plant.

Calling card, huh? I see...All we have to do is change Sakurai’s heart!

 

[StrawHatX]

Yeah, but are casuals gonna recognize Incineroar? If you want casual fans with Pokemon, you get Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, not someone from Gen 7. Besides, casuals also got characters like Daisy, Inkling, Ken, and Isabelle. I feel Incineroar is wholly unnecessary and adds nothing new. Oh another fire-weidling grappler? Great, throw him onto the pile with Falcon, Charizard, Bowser, etc. I know the comparison isn't 100% accurate, but I think the way it was communicated was poor at best. The ballot choices were revealed first, leading to hype for others to be revealed later on, but we got the casual picks. It's worrying to think that even with the ballot, we influenced the choice of three uniques, and two echoes. That's not even half the newcomers. (Depending on how you view Simon/Richter. I don't consider them ballot choices, because I think they had a good chance with Konami returning anyway). Now, the "everyone is here" thing comes from the ballot, so I guess you could count that, but I think it's different when considering newcomers/veterans. I just feel Pokemon's treatment goes beyond what's required. If no new Pokemon adds anything, don't add one. Pokemon has 10 unique characters (with one being a semi-clone) including Incineroar, which is more than Mario, and that's including Daisy. I think that's too much.

Wait, wait, pause. Right. There. That's the attitude I hate! "Stop being so ungrateful! You can't criticize Sakurai cuz he works so hard!" I despise this mentality. I understand Sakurai works himself to death every Smash game, and I don't hold him as the greatest game designer ever (in my opinion) for nothing. I know no other designer comes close to the passion Sakurai puts into every game, and I respect the hell outta him for it. However, I can very much criticize what I want. I'm the one paying for this game. I've already preloaded the game on my Switch, plus the Fighter Pass, because I'm not going to let botched marketing ruin what could be the best crossover ever. I know it's his game. Doesn't mean I can't have my own wants regarding it. I can be disappointed in the character choices (I am) and I can be disappointed in the single-player (no Home-Run Contest? Really?).

I lost some respect for Sakurai because of communication. It might not all have been his fault, but he had parts in all of this. The hype cycle started with Ridley, and peaked on 8/8. Simon PLUS King K. Rool? With more to come! Crazy! Then Isabelle. I thought "that's fine, it was a general direct. It didn't have to be a heavy hitter." The 11/1. And two casual choices to finish it off? Really? The "hype graph" for Ultimate would have peaked 8/8 and gone downhill fast starting in September. He went on record saying K. Rool, Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus got in because of the fans. This led to fans expecting more fan choices, and Isaac was a frontrunner. Why talk about how the ballot influenced the choices when the remaining three characters are all not what I would call "fan favorites". Isabelle was by far the most popular during the ballot era, and Incineroar didn't even exist yet. I think the reveal schedule was severely misplayed. Switch Incineroar and K. Rool, and the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad. We would've seen a casual pick already, meaning they'd be in the game, softening the Isabelle blow, plus he would've been revealed alongside Simon, so we would've had a hype third party to discuss. So when 11/1 comes, the final newcomer revealed is the globally requested King K. Rool. Amazing! Sounds awesome! Because of the heavy emphasis of the fighter's order, with it being the order they were revealed, Sakurai should've realized making Incineroar last would've been a poor idea. He messed up. Period. We'd be praising the game non-stop if K. Rool was the last reveal. Sadly, it didn't happen that way. Sakurai showed that despite the ballot, he's still exceptionally out of touch with the fans. Not to mention the brutal reveal of Piranha Plant after a massacre of deconfirmations. The showing of Shadow and Isaac, two highly requested fighters, in the last Direct, rather than a still rough, but acceptable early reveal at E3 or 8/8 would've been fine. Plant's reveal seemed in such poor taste after just killing so, so many fan's hopes. Just look at the Nintendo New York reaction. Everyone groaned when Isaac was shown. Sakurai failed the fans in the last months leading up to Ultimate. That's why he lost some of my respect. He can earn it back by fighting for fan favorites for DLC, but I'm not so certain that will happen.

I completely agree about Sakurai dropping the ball towards the end of the speculation run and the last Direct. I have no idea why he thought a Ryu Echo and Incineroar would be the best choices to reveal last. And PP after the wave of deconfirmations just wasn’t a good idea. I almost felt as though he was trolling in a way when he started talking about PP with “That’s right, PP is not an assist trophy, but a fully playable character!”

But it wasn’t even just the character reveals themselves. We got a 40 MINUTE Direct and he revealed the “last” two characters in the first 5 minutes. Not the best way to start out considering most people tune into these for the characters. Then we spent a good amount of time on settings, and a phone app most people will most likely never use. It just seemed like they completely botched the whole thing.

Obviously people set their expectations too high, but when we got the 8/8 Direct that was 27 minutes and gave us 5 characters, all of those stages, AT’s, items, pokeballs, music, modes, etc., it’s not hard to imagine people expected a lot more from the massive 40 minute Smash finale Direct.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Yeah, but are casuals gonna recognize Incineroar? If you want casual fans with Pokemon, you get Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, not someone from Gen 7. Besides, casuals also got characters like Daisy, Inkling, Ken, and Isabelle. I feel Incineroar is wholly unnecessary and adds nothing new. Oh another fire-weidling grappler? Great, throw him onto the pile with Falcon, Charizard, Bowser, etc. I know the comparison isn't 100% accurate, but I think the way it was communicated was poor at best. The ballot choices were revealed first, leading to hype for others to be revealed later on, but we got the casual picks. It's worrying to think that even with the ballot, we influenced the choice of three uniques, and two echoes. That's not even half the newcomers. (Depending on how you view Simon/Richter. I don't consider them ballot choices, because I think they had a good chance with Konami returning anyway). Now, the "everyone is here" thing comes from the ballot, so I guess you could count that, but I think it's different when considering newcomers/veterans. I just feel Pokemon's treatment goes beyond what's required. If no new Pokemon adds anything, don't add one. Pokemon has 10 unique characters (with one being a semi-clone) including Incineroar, which is more than Mario, and that's including Daisy. I think that's too much.

Wait, wait, pause. Right. There. That's the attitude I hate! "Stop being so ungrateful! You can't criticize Sakurai cuz he works so hard!" I despise this mentality. I understand Sakurai works himself to death every Smash game, and I don't hold him as the greatest game designer ever (in my opinion) for nothing. I know no other designer comes close to the passion Sakurai puts into every game, and I respect the hell outta him for it. However, I can very much criticize what I want. I'm the one paying for this game. I've already preloaded the game on my Switch, plus the Fighter Pass, because I'm not going to let botched marketing ruin what could be the best crossover ever. I know it's his game. Doesn't mean I can't have my own wants regarding it. I can be disappointed in the character choices (I am) and I can be disappointed in the single-player (no Home-Run Contest? Really?).

I lost some respect for Sakurai because of communication. It might not all have been his fault, but he had parts in all of this. The hype cycle started with Ridley, and peaked on 8/8. Simon PLUS King K. Rool? With more to come! Crazy! Then Isabelle. I thought "that's fine, it was a general direct. It didn't have to be a heavy hitter." The 11/1. And two casual choices to finish it off? Really? The "hype graph" for Ultimate would have peaked 8/8 and gone downhill fast starting in September. He went on record saying K. Rool, Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus got in because of the fans. This led to fans expecting more fan choices, and Isaac was a frontrunner. Why talk about how the ballot influenced the choices when the remaining three characters are all not what I would call "fan favorites". Isabelle was by far the most popular during the ballot era, and Incineroar didn't even exist yet. I think the reveal schedule was severely misplayed. Switch Incineroar and K. Rool, and the backlash wouldn't have been nearly as bad. We would've seen a casual pick already, meaning they'd be in the game, softening the Isabelle blow, plus he would've been revealed alongside Simon, so we would've had a hype third party to discuss. So when 11/1 comes, the final newcomer revealed is the globally requested King K. Rool. Amazing! Sounds awesome! Because of the heavy emphasis of the fighter's order, with it being the order they were revealed, Sakurai should've realized making Incineroar last would've been a poor idea. He messed up. Period. We'd be praising the game non-stop if K. Rool was the last reveal. Sadly, it didn't happen that way. Sakurai showed that despite the ballot, he's still exceptionally out of touch with the fans. Not to mention the brutal reveal of Piranha Plant after a massacre of deconfirmations. The showing of Shadow and Isaac, two highly requested fighters, in the last Direct, rather than a still rough, but acceptable early reveal at E3 or 8/8 would've been fine. Plant's reveal seemed in such poor taste after just killing so, so many fan's hopes. Just look at the Nintendo New York reaction. Everyone groaned when Isaac was shown. Sakurai failed the fans in the last months leading up to Ultimate. That's why he lost some of my respect. He can earn it back by fighting for fan favorites for DLC, but I'm not so certain that will happen.

Well I wouldnt fault Sakurai for how everything turned out, but I do agree that the order of reveals were done in the worst possible way. If it were me, I would’ve revealed Simon at E3, Ridley at August and K. Rool at October. The fake grinch leak didnt help at all either...

 

[GoodGrief741]

Calling card, huh? I see...All we have to do is change Sakurai’s heart!

View attachment 179043

He’ll never see it coming!

 

[Undella2]

My opinion is that if they really wanted to add a "joke"/"WTF" character this game then they should have gone with someone like Starfy.

At least then it would be representation for a new franchise.

 

[FlawedAI]

Well I wouldnt fault Sakurai for how everything was turned out, but I do agree that the order of reveals were done in the worst possible way. If it were me, I would’ve revealed Simon at E3, Ridley at August and K. Rool at October. The fake grinch leak didnt help at all either...

While Sakurai isn't exactly at fault for the order of reveals, it is his fault for choosing the characters that got revealed. This wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't chosen Incineroar and Isabelle.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

While Sakurai isn't exactly at fault for the order of reveals, it is his fault for choosing the characters that got revealed. This wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't chosen Incineroar and Isabelle.

Incineroar and Isabelle may not appeal to you, but they certainly appeal to other people.

 

[Silo777]

While Sakurai isn't exactly at fault for the order of reveals, it is his fault for choosing the characters that got revealed. This wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't chosen Incineroar and Isabelle.

I feel like Sakurai realized this but couldn't do anything about it at that point. That’s why he constantly kept up with the “Don’t expect too much” and “I think I blew my load too early” But regardless, somebody should’ve known this was a bad idea.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They did say it was for DLC, so... Yeah, that was a lie. Bayonetta being the supposed winner was also a lie, SPECIALLY when they said she won because of Europe... Yeah...Right.

I know Chrom and Dark Samus are popular, I am in both of those fandoms, but individually they weren't as popular as other choices. I see more likely that Chrom was introduced due to the backlash of the bad treatment he got in Smash 4, but still, we don't have a word on Isaac or why his demand only got him back as AT, he also didn't address other popular characters who did good in the ballot and only got ATed, as well.

No, he never said it was "for DLC". He said it might be used for DLC. He also said it'll be taken into account for future Smash games. People vastly wanted to hear what he didn't say. It's just how people's minds work. Let's put it this way; his statement is "The ballot may be used for upcoming DLC, and will be taken into account for future Smash games." It's not an exact quote, being paraphrased, but it's exactly what he meant overall.

He never actually lied at all. People mistook what he meant by Bayonetta. When in reality, her being chosen(which datamines implies she was chosen before the ballot) for Smash and her scoring high on the ballot are likely two separate factors.

Also, I don't feel he's out of touch with fans. Camelot hasn't made a GS game in years on end. There's nothing really to prove he dislikes Golden Sun. There's actually a lot more content in this game than the previous one. There's probably a good reason why Isaac is still an AT. We just don't know what it is yet. Maybe he just wasn't on the table. He had multiple fan favorites via the ballot to add. Isaac had no upcoming games and could've been lower priority for all we know.

 

[FlawedAI]

Incineroar and Isabelle may not appeal to you, but they certainly appeal to other people.

But when he stressed that this game's choices came from the ballot, those picks make it all seem untrue. How can a character be picked from the ballot if they didn't exist during the ballot?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But when he stressed that this game's choices came from the ballot, those picks make it all seem untrue. How can a character be picked from the ballot if they didn't exist during the ballot?

He said he was taking it into account. Not that all of his choices were from that. People just again, wanted to hear what wasn't said. Nowhere did he say "ballot only". It was a possibility, but it should've been kept in mind that not all will be ballot picks. Also, Isabelle is severely popular. She might've been one. Incineroar is the only one who definitely could not have been one in any way. The other 10 have lots of fans in their own right.

Well, Piranha Plant too, of course. But that's a different branch to go off of.

 

[Gioka]

The last Direct irked me for awhile because I just wasn’t a fan of the final three characters. Not that I dislike them, I just couldn’t understand why they were saved for the last Direct when the Belmonts or K. Rool would have been perfect IMO as the last reveals.

Ken is the original Echo Fighter of gaming so I get his inclusion. I’m not a big fan of Street Fighter, but I know it’s popular. But we all knew he was just going to be another Ryu.

Piranha Plant annoyed me just because like a lot of others at the time I just could not comprehend why we got a generic Mario enemy over characters like Isaac or Waluigi. This game is supposed to be almost like a nod to the fans. And they had the damn ballots. They knew they had all these popular, interesting characters and yet they went with the plant. (I’ve warmed up to PP a lot though).

Incineroar was probably the one that bothered me the most at the time. I understand he was more of a tribute to the VA that passed away and Sakurai wanted a wrestler character, so I get it. But Pokemon already has so many freakin characters. Gen 7 itself is already 2 years old and Gen 8 is out next year. Pokemon doesn’t need anymore advertising. It’s fine. Every Pokémon game that comes out will sell millions.

It is time we finally come to terms with the fact that Pokémon will always get a rep. Not because of advertising (alone) but because it is a way of retribution to such a big franchise for Nintendo. (One of the reasons the Zelda fandom feels so let out!)

But I agree on the last direct, I like the characters but they didn't execute it properly, those should have been the first characters to be shown (and it would have flown together with how Smash 4 was conducted, so people would just have expected popular/marketing choices and then BOOM comes the fan favorites)

 

[FlawedAI]

He said he was taking it into account. Not that all of his choices were from that. People just again, wanted to hear what wasn't said. Nowhere did he say "ballot only". It was a possibility, but it should've been kept in mind that not all will be ballot picks. Also, Isabelle is severely popular. She might've been one. Incineroar is the only one who definitely could not have been one in any way. The other 10 have lots of fans in their own right.

Well, Piranha Plant too, of course. But that's a different branch to go off of.

That ties back into my communication issue. He needed to clear up that not every pick would've been from the ballot, but the reveal order didn't support that, since no "casual" pick had been revealed yet. A lack of info ended up killing this game's hype.

 

[StrawHatX]

I think some people felt that Sakurai and the Smash team deliberately led people on by not revealing Isaac and Shadow’s AT’s earlier on. It was a way to generate more hype by having those fans and the community being really excited and thinking it was actually going to happen when after every Direct went by we didn't see them.

It would have been a lot easier on us if Isaac was revealed as returning to AT status back at E3 or the 8/8 Direct. But then again I think it’s also possible Sakurai actually believes people are happy enough to see their character make AT status. Which of course we’re all happy to see Isaac at least back as that, but it crushed us all when we were once again giving into the hope and it seemed like the Smash team was feeding it to us.

 

[Gioka]

No, he never said it was "for DLC". He said it might be used for DLC. He also said it'll be taken into account for future Smash games. People vastly wanted to hear what he didn't say. It's just how people's minds work. Let's put it this way; his statement is "The ballot may be used for upcoming DLC, and will be taken into account for future Smash games." It's not an exact quote, being paraphrased, but it's exactly what he meant overall.

He never actually lied at all. People mistook what he meant by Bayonetta. When in reality, her being chosen(which datamines implies she was chosen before the ballot) for Smash and her scoring high on the ballot are likely two separate factors.

Also, I don't feel he's out of touch with fans. Camelot hasn't made a GS game in years on end. There's nothing really to prove he dislikes Golden Sun. There's actually a lot more content in this game than the previous one. There's probably a good reason why Isaac is still an AT. We just don't know what it is yet. Maybe he just wasn't on the table. He had multiple fan favorites via the ballot to add. Isaac had no upcoming games and could've been lower priority for all we know.

Ok, I don't remember if the DLC part was stated as so, so I will give you that, but no. Bayonetta was not something people mistook
They said she was No.1 in Europe and top 5 in the US in the ballot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1JERhUoQoU
We then through dataminers knew she was already chosen, which means she wasn't no. 1 as they said. They said she was No.1 Worldwide out of the "realizable characters". Which is vague, sure, but we know she didn't win that. And now we know characters like K. Rool weren't unrealizable, Bayonetta was seemingly just the one that was already on the works.

EDIT: Found a screenshot, the page does say specifically "in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U"

Spoiler

I don't feel he is out of touch with fans completely, but Nintendo in general could probably improve the communication between both sides.
And sure, we may get a reason for Isaac but it is normal that people feel left out when is one of the few big fanbases that hasn't been mentioned by Sakurai at all. And if having no upcoming games lowers your priority despite the fan demand then you are not actually listening to them.

 

[jweb23]

Just giving my two cents

The whole "stop being ungrateful" argument is the silliest thing I've heard, and I have a far stronger word than "silly" but I'm censoring myself. I love and appreciate everything Sakurai has done but the man is NOT doing this for free and none of us are getting the game for free so let's stop with those silly retorts!

Anyways Sakurai pretty much screwed himself in terms of possible backlash because he and his team messed up the reveal order, but on top of that Sakurai should have not taken interviews until after all the characters were revealed! It literally makes no logical sense to reveal K Rool (the last newcomer from the ballot) back in August and then say, "they looked to the ballot for newcomers this time around" while also holding on to the reveals of Isaac, Skull Kid, Black Knight and Shadow as Assist Trophies until the end! It makes no sense at all to do that. Skull Kid and Shadow literally had no reason to be held onto because they are returning ATs from the last game! Why in the world would you hold on to those two especially when you reveal Isabelle who was also an AT last game but got the upgrade? Stuff like that irritates the fans! It's stuff like that which raises the question of if they are tone deaf when it comes to the fans.

Personally I love the roster, just disappointed none of the newcomers were the characters I wanted, but I'm not gonna pretend this reveal cycle wasn't mishandled.

 

[TempestSurge]

That ties back into my communication issue. He needed to clear up that not every pick would've been from the ballot, but the reveal order didn't support that, since no "casual" pick had been revealed yet. A lack of info ended up killing this game's hype.

Guess ballot was used for one character, K. Rool, it seems. Since it was brought up in the interview after K. Rool's reveal and he mentioned him being one of the characters who received a ton of votes. I did think, oh, maybe we'll get another ballot character or two. I mean Isaac or Geno making base would have made me believe the whole 'fan roster' theme more, given those two haven't had recent appearances in games in ages so they'd have to literally be voted in by fans, but neither made it. Post speculation hype and stress, can't even say I'm surprised.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

That ties back into my communication issue. He needed to clear up that not every pick would've been from the ballot, but the reveal order didn't support that, since no "casual" pick had been revealed yet. A lack of info ended up killing this game's hype.

You're absolutely right in that he should've said that not all picks would be from the ballot. The amount of character suggestions I had that were shot down because "muh ballot" was getting kind of annoying.

I think some people felt that Sakurai and the Smash team deliberately led people on by not revealing Isaac and Shadow’s AT’s earlier on. It was a way to generate more hype by having those fans and the community being really excited and thinking it was actually going to happen when after every Direct went by we didn't see them.

It would have been a lot easier on us if Isaac was revealed as returning to AT status back at E3 or the 8/8 Direct. But then again I think it’s also possible Sakurai actually believes people are happy enough to see their character make AT status. Which of course we’re all happy to see Isaac at least back as that, but it crushed us all when we were once again giving into the hope and it seemed like the Smash team was feeding it to us.

I think that if assist trophies were better implemented in the gameplay, they wouldn't be met with so much derision. In Brawl and Smash 4, they were glorified pokeballs, but I think they took a step in the right direction in Ultimate - In how you can damage and kill them. That allows them to be a bit more engaged in match.
I think the main reason why people don't like ATs is that they're entirely CPU controlled. What if they were more of an "assist character" that you pick at the CSS, where you can map their attack to a single button, kind of like Pokken? Of course, that would not be the same as fully playable character, but at least there would be competitive potential and it would give players more connection to the character.

 

[StrawHatX]

Even with the fan ballot I was ready to not get my hopes up and think to myself once again “We’ve been down this road before twice already. He’s not getting in.”

But what really made me believe was the fact that Sakurai put out that damn Rathalos tweet that was a clear reference to Golden Sun. He knew Isaac fans would pick up on that. When I saw that I thought “This is the most attention the guy has ever given GS. Something has to be up.”

But no...... unless he really did put that tweet out there to get us excited that through all of our efforts we got Isaac back to.......... his Brawl status of assist trophy from 10 years ago..?

 

[GoodGrief741]

My opinion is that if they really wanted to add a "joke"/"WTF" character this game then they should have gone with someone like Starfy.

At least then it would be representation for a new franchise.

That’s the main reason why the surprise character usually works, yet didn’t this time around.

With characters like Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, you take away the surprise factor, and what have you got left? One of the first handheld consoles, a huge hit and iconic classic, and a best-selling game+peripheral. Each with their own series (and thus their own fans), which are represented by stages, music, trophies and maybe more.

Take away the surprise factor from Piranha Plant and you got nothing. No fanbase behind it as a character, and it brings nothing to the table other than another moveset. It’s a surprise just for surprise’s sake.

Incineroar and Isabelle may not appeal to you, but they certainly appeal to other people.

Isabelle for sure, but Incineroar had no support at all before development started, and after he was revealed he was (at least from what I’ve gathered) widely hated for his design, and then when Sun and Moon came out he was still not the most popular Pokémon, starter or even final stage starter. His support was virtually nonexistent before Vergeben. Given that he was apparently added late in development, they could have gone with much better choices.

Hell, if instead of Incineroar we had gotten Rex or Spring Man as the arbitrarily decided marketing pick people would have loved it.

It is time we finally come to terms with the fact that Pokémon will always get a rep.

And that’s just plain not right.

 

[Gioka]

And that’s just plain not right.

Yes, we may not like it, I love Pokémon but know a lot of franchises could use the spot a lot more (both represented and unrepresented first party) but it is what it is, I don't think that is going to change if it didn't change in this entry that has been the most "fan oriented" one to date, unless they decide to replace Sakurai with another director, and even then, I doubt it, I don't think Nintendo will allow a Smash game to not have a Pokemon rep. (Granted, I still think they would have done better by keeping the spot for DLC due to the new gen coming but eh, who says since Nintendo picked the list of candidates that they won't have two reps this time around?)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ok, I don't remember if the DLC part was stated as so, so I will give you that, but no. Bayonetta was not something people mistook
They said he was No.1 in Europe and top 5 in the US in the ballot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1JERhUoQoU
We then through dataminers knew she was already chosen, which means she wasn't no. 1 as they said. They said she was No.1 Worldwide out of the "realizable characters". Which is vague, sure, but we know she didn't win that. And now we know characters like K. Rool weren't unrealizable, Bayonetta was seemingly just the one that was already on the works.

EDIT: Found a screenshot, the page does say specifically "in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U"

Spoiler

I don't feel he is out of touch with fans completely, but Nintendo in general could probably improve the communication between both sides.
And sure, we may get a reason for Isaac but it is normal that people feel left out when is one of the few big fanbases that hasn't been mentioned by Sakurai at all. And if having no upcoming games lowers your priority despite the fan demand then you are not actually listening to them.

"We'll consider turning that character into a Smash fighter!"

That's pretty clear communication-wise. At least for this one. As for Bayonetta, we found a datamine literally a week after the ballot started that had full character data for her. Why is this relevant? Because it takes way more than a week to not only license her but also to get any skeleton frame data done. She was chosen independent of the ballot with this in mind. She also coincidentally scored high on the ballot. It's just two separate factors. We don't know how she was chosen anymore. It's better to think of the situation as a white lie. He had all of the DLC characters chosen before the ballot as is from what we can figure out.

That ties back into my communication issue. He needed to clear up that not every pick would've been from the ballot, but the reveal order didn't support that, since no "casual" pick had been revealed yet. A lack of info ended up killing this game's hype.

"I was looking at the ballot for characters." never means "I only used the ballot to choose characters." That was just a conclusion people came to. I agree he could've said it better, but again, he never once said he only used the ballot. The only ones that appear to be the case are Chrom, Dark Samus, and clearly K. Rool. Daisy could've been the case too. Ken also likely was as well, being extremely popular among fans too. But it's harder to say on that one. He didn't comment directly on that.

There was always a good chance he'd pull another Greninja. He's made it clear he has saved a slot for Pokemon before(the only franchise he's willing to do so specifically). Incineroar was just the lucky choice this time around(and coincidentally the most promoted as the main starter in the anime, as he's the only one with specific concept art that depicts him in the anime itself). You can even see some similar moves, like him putting someone over his shoulder doing a Backbreaker. Regardless, people tend to jump the gun and misinterpret him. It happens a lot. It also doesn't help the translations are far from perfect at times. Like the whole "Assist Trophies would help in All-Star". And so on.

 

[ZelDan]

This is how I would have changed the order of reveals:

1. Just reveal all assist trophies during the E3 direct, so that way the bandaid would have been ripped off faster for many fanbases and so that many fanbases didn't have to build up months worth of hype, and thus experience larger disappointment. Honestly, as someone who really wanted Lyn, I wasn't even THAT upset at her AT reveal, since I didn't hype her for months and I had the "EVERYONE IS HERE!" hype to distract me and keep me hyped as hell for Smash. Had Isaac been shown then it probably would have been the same thing (would have helped that I also wasn't even around Smashboards back then or in this thread).

2. Swap the Kencineroar reveals with the Castlevania reveals. Castlevania content would have been a MUCH more exciting reveal to end on then Incineroar or Ken, And Incineraor, Ken, Dark Samus, and Chrom would have still made for a nice August direct, along with all the other cool stuff shown off like Squad Strike, Smashdown, music stuff, etc.

3. Make K Rool a standalone October reveal. Would have helped make the wait between the September and November directs alot more bearable to have a hype reveal like that inbetween.

 

[TempestSurge]

Even with the fan ballot I was ready to not get my hopes up and think to myself once again “We’ve been down this road before twice already. He’s not getting in.”

But what really made me believe was the fact that Sakurai put out that damn Rathalos tweet that was a clear reference to Golden Sun. He knew Isaac fans would pick up on that. When I saw that I thought “This is the most attention the guy has ever given GS. Something has to be up.”

But no...... unless he really did put that tweet out there to get us excited that through all of our efforts we got Isaac back to.......... his Brawl status of assist trophy from 10 years ago..?

I don't think Sakurai intentionally tweeted the picture to lead false hype. I think he's just out of touch with Golden Sun knowledge in general. He probably didn't recognize any of the similarities and just thought it was a cool picture cause rpg vibes and Shulk was in it.

 

[Gioka]

"We'll consider turning that character into a Smash fighter!"

As for Bayonetta, we found a datamine literally a week after the ballot started that had full character data for her. Why is this relevant? Because it takes way more than a week to not only license her but also to get any skeleton frame data done. She was chosen independent of the ballot with this in mind. She also coincidentally scored high on the ballot. It's just two separate factors. We don't know how she was chosen anymore. It's better to think of the situation as a white lie. He had all of the DLC characters chosen before the ballot as is from what we can figure out.

That is exactly what I am saying? That Bayonetta WAS announced as the winner of the ballot but SHE WASN'T and she wasn't chosen due to her performance on it either. They are separate factors, yes. Was it a white lie to keep the actual results for other uses later? Maybe, but a white lie is still a lie, which is what I am pointing out, she wasn't chosen by the ballot, so that was a lie. I don't think Sakurai did so with any ill intentions in mind, and I do think they probably have kept the results to them because they know it is a lot of valuable information to work with.

 

[FantastiqueFran]

The whole "stop being ungrateful" argument is the silliest thing I've heard, and I have a far stronger word than "silly" but I'm censoring myself. I love and appreciate everything Sakurai has done but the man is NOT doing this for free and none of us are getting the game for free so let's stop with those silly retorts!

This. This argument usually comes from rabid fanboys.

There is no video game that is above criticism. Every single game has had its fair share of criticism, either from a minority or a majority. Smash Bros. Ultimate is definitely not an exception and it will never be an exception. It's a great game, possibly the best in the series, but it is not above criticism. There's always going to be someone out there who will critique the game from both within and outside the community.

Anyways, happy early Thanksgiving to all of you! The Game Awards are coming up this December a day before Smash Ultimate comes out. It would've been nice to see Smash Bros. Ultimate as a nominee for some of the categories, but I think it would've been snuffed out by Red Dead Redemption II and God of War because, my goodness, these fandoms are at each other's throats right now.

Do you guys think that there might be a reveal for a new Golden Sun? I'm pretty sure Nintendo will drop some news on Metroid Prime 4 and half-certain that they might reveal something related to Smash at the Game Awards.

 

[Silo777]

I don't think Sakurai intentionally tweeted the picture to lead false hype. I think he's just out of touch with Golden Sun knowledge in general. He probably didn't recognize any of the similarities and just thought it was a cool picture cause rpg vibes and Shulk was in it.

I’d be able to buy this...had it not been for what we saw in the latest direct. Isaac has whole new moves, being lift and pound, and they’re both accurately depicted. No other assists had this kinda of treatment, and heck, pound is from the second game, so the research had to be decently extensive. For that reason, I can’t buy that he just didnt know.

 

[ChronoBound]

Stuff like that irritates the fans! It's stuff like that which raises the question of if they are tone deaf when it comes to the fans.

Personally I love the roster, just disappointed none of the newcomers were the characters I wanted, but I'm not gonna pretend this reveal cycle wasn't mishandled.

I do not know why people are under the mindset that the roster should be entirely chosen by whose fanboy legions screams loudest on the internet.

The fact is of the 11 newcomers. They all catered to different segments of the gaming population and were probably the best he could have done.

Hardcore Nintendo fans:
Ridley
K. Rool
Chrom (Japanese fans)
Dark Samus (Western fans)

Casual Nintendo fans:
Daisy
Isabelle
Inkling

Icons important to gaming:
Simon
Ken
Richter (Rondo of Blood was the crown jewel of the Turbografx, and Richter was the Belmont of Symphony of the Night)

Pokemon Company's mandated slot:
Incineroar (and even then, of all the Gen 7 choices he could have chosen, Incineroar was ironically the best because he brought the pro-wrestler archetype to the roster)

Core Smash Bros. fans are kind of in a bubble where they think only their opinions should matter.

We got no cuts, and every single character is brought back. We also received over 100 stages. Development resources are not infinite either. This game is absolutely incredible.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That is exactly what I am saying? That Bayonetta WAS announced as the winner of the ballot but SHE WASN'T and she wasn't chosen due to her performance on it either. They are separate factors, yes. Was it a white lie to keep the actual results for other uses later? Maybe, but a white lie is still a lie, which is what I am pointing out, she wasn't chosen by the ballot, so that was a lie. I don't think Sakurai did so with any ill intentions in mind, and I do think they probably have kept the results to them because they know it is a lot of valuable information to work with.

He didn't actually say she was chosen because of the ballot. He only said she scored high on it.

People came to an incorrect conclusion due to lack of communication, really. His wording is poor, but he didn't lie at all. It's a pure misunderstanding, really.

It feels like a white lie, but wasn't one either. I must've misread the meaning of your previous post, though. Sorry about that.

 

[jweb23]

Just giving my two cents

The whole "stop being ungrateful" argument is the silliest thing I've heard, and I have a far stronger word than "silly" but I'm censoring myself. I love and appreciate everything Sakurai has done but the man is NOT doing this for free and none of us are getting the game for free so let's stop with those silly retorts!

Anyways Sakurai pretty much screwed himself in terms of possible backlash because he and his team messed up the reveal order, but on top of that Sakurai should have not taken interviews until after all the characters were revealed! It literally makes no logical sense to reveal K Rool (the last newcomer from the ballot) back in August and then say, "they looked to the ballot for newcomers this time around" while also holding on to the reveals of Isaac, Skull Kid, Black Knight and Shadow as Assist Trophies until the end! It makes no sense at all to do that. Skull Kid and Shadow literally had no reason to be held onto because they are returning ATs from the last game! Why in the world would you hold on to those two especially when you reveal Isabelle who was also an AT last game but got the upgrade? Stuff like that irritates the fans! It's stuff like that which raises the question of if they are tone deaf when it comes to the fans.

Personally I love the roster, just disappointed none of the newcomers were the characters I wanted, but I'm not gonna pretend this reveal cycle wasn't mishandled.

I do not know why people are under the mindset that the roster should be entirely chosen by whose fanboy legions screams loudest on the internet.

The fact is of the 11 newcomers. They all catered to different segments of the gaming population and were probably the best he could have done.

Hardcore Nintendo fans:
Ridley
K. Rool
Chrom (Japanese fans)
Dark Samus (Western fans)

Casual Nintendo fans:
Daisy
Isabelle
Inkling

Icons important to gaming:
Simon
Ken
Richter (Rondo of Blood was the crown jewel of the Turbografx, and Richter was the Belmont of Symphony of the Night)

Pokemon Company's mandated slot:
Incineroar (and even then, of all the Gen 7 choices he could have chosen, Incineroar was ironically the best because he brought the pro-wrestler archetype to the roster)

Core Smash Bros. fans are kind of in a bubble where they think only their opinions should matter.

We got no cuts, and every single character is brought back. We also received over 100 stages. Development resources are not infinite either. This game is absolutely incredible.

If you are gonna quote my post then at least quote the entire thing so it's not taken out of context! I never said Sakurai needed to cater to the hardcore Smash fans! I simply said he created more possible backlash with the poor handling of the reveals. Especially holding off on returning assists such as Skull Kid and Shadow when there was no reason to. If he or his team thought that was a good way to build up hype then sadly they are tone deaf in that aspect when it comes to the fans. Most fans prefer the bandaid being ripped off early!

 

[Gioka]

He didn't actually say she was chosen because of the ballot. He only said she scored high on it.

People came to an incorrect conclusion due to lack of communication, really. His wording is poor, but he didn't lie at all. It's a pure misunderstanding, really.

It feels like a white lie, but wasn't one either. I must've misread the meaning of your previous post, though. Sorry about that.

It is ok! Lack/problems of communication is exactly what we are saying here, I agree that part of it is not his fault, but another one is because he tries to be too vague, did Bayo place high in the ballot even if she was already chosen? Most likely. Was she first place in Europe? I highly doubt it.
I just hope they keep those results and do something useful with them, if they also serve Nintendo, I wish they can use it to see people love characters from other franchises aside from the big ones!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Given that he was apparently added late in development, they could have gone with much better choices.

I'm extremely doubtful about the USUM thing. Why not a Pokemon, a Pokemon form, or a Pokemon with a signature move that debuted in it, if it took that long to choose a Pokemon?

 

[ChronoBound]

. Most fans prefer the bandaid being ripped off early!

That did not stop Waluigi fans from holding a massive temper tantrum.

I simply said he created more possible backlash with the poor handling of the reveals. Especially holding off on returning assists such as Skull Kid and Shadow when there was no reason to. If he or his team thought that was a good way to build up hype then sadly they are tone deaf in that aspect when it comes to the fans. !

Sakurai likely had no idea that there would be a lot of people automatically expecting those characters to be playable (Skull Kid blowing up was entirely due to LoZ and a conspiracy theory involving chairs). For all we know, Skull Kid and Shadow did poorly on the ballot. For Shadow in particular, that is a character that has the ire of at least half of the Sonic fanbase, and it was only until very recently that the character became popular for Smash Bros.

If you told someone a year ago that Dark Samus was going to be among the newcomers for the next Smash Bros. game, no one would believe you. Heck, a few weeks ago, everyone would have said the same about Pirahna Plant.

While there is a lot of things speculators get right before many others, there is also many things that we do not see coming. That goes for characters that we see as "unlikely" and characters we think are "guarantees".

 

[NessAtc.]

I do not know why people are under the mindset that the roster should be entirely chosen by whose fanboy legions screams loudest on the internet.

Ridley

That's your answer

 

[ChronoBound]

That's your answer

Ridley is the most critical character to one of Nintendo's longest running franchises (Metroid) after Samus. We also have not seen the ballot results.

Keep in mind there was no massive push for Dark Samus that we saw on Smash Bros. online communities, yet it was confirmed by Sakurai that she was highly requested by Western Smash Bros. fans.

It ties into earlier how I said people on social media and gaming forums are in a bubble. There are people that believe Geno is a bigger name than Sora or the Dragon Quest franchise.

 

[Organization XIII]

Ridley is the most critical character to one of Nintendo's longest running franchises (Metroid) after Samus. We also have not seen the ballot results.

Keep in mind there was no massive push for Dark Samus that we saw on Smash Bros. online communities, yet it was confirmed by Sakurai that she was highly requested by Western Smash Bros. fans.

It ties into earlier how I said people on social media and gaming forums are in a bubble. There are people that believe Geno is a bigger name than Sora or the Dragon Quest franchise.

He's not critical. Ridley can be removed and you lose nothing. He's just really enjoyed by fans.

 

[StormC]

I think with only a few unique newcomers on the table, K. Rool and Ridley sucked all the air out of the room for fan favorite requests, at least ones that Sakurai kinda had to go out of his way for (Inkling was such a braindead obvious addition you could get a computer to put them on the roster list).

Now that we know without a shadow of a doubt there is a "Pokemon slot," I assume there will be one for each game going forward.

 

[NessAtc.]

Ridley is the most critical character to one of Nintendo's longest running franchises (Metroid) after Samus. We also have not seen the ballot results.

Keep in mind there was no massive push for Dark Samus that we saw on Smash Bros. online communities, yet it was confirmed by Sakurai that she was highly requested by Western Smash Bros. fans.

It ties into earlier how I said people on social media and gaming forums are in a bubble. There are people that believe Geno is a bigger name than Sora or the Dragon Quest franchise.

And yet he wasn't made a playable character until this game. Face it, the fans made him playable by being annoying. It worked.