Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Ninjaed]

Btw everyone, if you have not followed GS_S***posts on Twitter, please do. I would link it, but it might get censored here.
They got some pretty funny stuff and another good way to keep Golden Sun fresh on everyone’s minds. The latest one about Piers being a Globetrotter despite Weyard being flat got me laughing at the irony.

I don't know if Weyard actually IS flat though. Take Sonic Unleashed. The world gets broken into several floating plates. Maybe Weyard is a bit the same. Let me explain. Weyard was shrinking, after the Golden Sun event it's growing back to how it used to be. In Dark Dawn, you can see a lower sea floor on the edges of Weyard. You can also see "floating" plots of earth jutting out from below, at a distance from actual land. This may mean that the world actually was shrinking in the truest sense.

Take the Earth, visualise it. Make it shrink BUT leave one part of it untouched. All of a sudden, this part is now far above all others, making it seem as though the world is flat as the rest is covered in dense fog (IIRC someone mentions a dark world in the first Golden Sun). Now make it slowly grow back to how it was, and you'll see mountains pop up from beneath, appearing to be disconnected from the rest.

I think this theory would explain why Weyard is flat, as well as the reason why the last place to shrink was around Mt Aleph. That's because that's where an ancient civilisation discovered Alchemy and started harnessing and using it. As a result, the area around it started to thrive BUT at the expense of the rest of the world... If you amass Alchemy in one place, everywhere else will be deprived of it. Since it acts as the planet's life source, that means all the other places will shrivel and shrink while Angara and the continents close enough to it fare all the better. That also explains why Angara was the "continent" that changed the most, while the edges didn't see as much change.

... No, my imagination has not been running wild while waiting for GS4. I don't see what you mean.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I don't know if Weyard actually IS flat though. Take Sonic Unleashed. The world gets broken into several floating plates. Maybe Weyard is a bit the same. Let me explain. Weyard was shrinking, after the Golden Sun event it's growing back to how it used to be. In Dark Dawn, you can see a lower sea floor on the edges of Weyard. You can also see "floating" plots of earth jutting out from below, at a distance from actual land. This may mean that the world actually was shrinking in the truest sense.

Take the Earth, visualise it. Make it shrink BUT leave one part of it untouched. All of a sudden, this part is now far above all others, making it seem as though the world is flat as the rest is covered in dense fog (IIRC someone mentions a dark world in the first Golden Sun). Now make it slowly grow back to how it was, and you'll see mountains pop up from beneath, appearing to be disconnected from the rest.

I think this theory would explain why Weyard is flat, as well as the reason why the last place to shrink was around Mt Aleph. That's because that's where an ancient civilisation discovered Alchemy and started harnessing and using it. As a result, the area around it started to thrive BUT at the expense of the rest of the world... If you amass Alchemy in one place, everywhere else will be deprived of it. Since it acts as the planet's life source, that means all the other places will shrivel and shrink while Angara and the continents close enough to it fare all the better. That also explains why Angara was the "continent" that changed the most, while the edges didn't see as much change.

... No, my imagination has not been running wild while waiting for GS4. I don't see what you mean.

I've been considering for a long time that Weyard split apart and you were on what's left of what was once a sphere. And maybe you could go underneath the current location, but having other locations floating below could be very interesting as well.


Also, this idea greatly reminds me of a little Indie game called **SPOILERS FOR SAID INDIE GAME**

Spoiler

Owlboy

Not exactly the same, as in this context its only the land itself that got raised up.

 

[Deleted member]

Golden Sun

Will keep supporting till a remake comes around.

Or a new game!

 

[Kalaam]

As for a plot standpoint, I think a story would be interresting.
If Weyard is indeed flat, but not the actual planet. Being like a giant part of it, a giant island created by the Jenneth during their prime. (the underground IS filled with psynergy stones since we can mine it, maybe on the underside there is a giant one that was being drained without the Golden Sun to recharge it. After all in wicca, you use the light of the sun to charge gems in energy.) It was eroding and crumbling, and is now back and running. But what about the world below ? Did the Golden Sun affected it ? Maybe that's where the Tuaparangs are from, ancients ennemies of the Jenneth, using anti-adepts weapons (such as those grenades). They can create vortexes that drains psynergy, even the one of the environnement, draining even the stones. If there is a giant stone under the "island" maybe they'll try to create a Mourning Moon (or whatever it's called) to drain it and destroy Weyard, so no alchemist can be a threat to their empire !

 

[PolarPanda]

I posted what my NoA connection said in the Geno thread, since that's where I'm at most of the time. Posted a screenshot of his message in particular, but I'll post it here for good measure. GS fans NEED to follow through with his advice if they want Isaac in the future:

 

[TheCJBrine]

I posted what my NoA connection said in the Geno thread, since that's where I'm at most of the time. Posted a screenshot of his message in particular, but I'll post it here for good measure. GS fans NEED to follow through with his advice if they want Isaac in the future:

View attachment 180464

Was about to post the news lol.

I speculate that Nintendo being surprised is good news; if Isaac fans keep pushing, maybe he'll get into the next Smash game, or even better, maybe they'll make Camelot develop a new Golden Sun game.

Hopefully they'll also learn that most fans just view Mii Costumes and ATs as a graveyard (imo they're nice to have as compensation, but I will admit that it's disappointing to have your favorite characters as something other than playable no matter how cool that something is, as I share a similar feeling (where I'm disappointed but I still like it)).

 

[NessAtc.]

I posted what my NoA connection said in the Geno thread, since that's where I'm at most of the time. Posted a screenshot of his message in particular, but I'll post it here for good measure. GS fans NEED to follow through with his advice if they want Isaac in the future:

Jesus there's so many people saying the same thing every day
Like yes we get it we need to keep GS relevant, that's what we've been trying to do. We pushed 3 years ago, and we do think and hope Camelot heard us. We just recently pushed again as well, so all we need to do is do so consistently.
Thank you for the concern, but we really don't need to keep hearing about "what we need to do" every day, we need to actually do stuff.

 

[PolarPanda]

Jesus there's so many people saying the same thing every day
Like yes we get it we need to keep GS relevant, that's what we've been trying to do. We pushed 3 years ago, and we do think and hope Camelot heard us. We just recently pushed again as well, so all we need to do is do so consistently.
Thank you for the concern, but we really don't need to keep hearing about "what we need to do" every day, we need to actually do stuff.

Sorry. I'm not a big Isaac fan/ in the GS community. I do LIKE Isaac and GS, but he's not somebody I've focused on so please ignore my obliviousness. I just got word of him because my NoA contact's only main want was Isaac, so he focused on giving me news about him. I only really frequent the Geno thread, so I wasn't sure if my info had made its way here. I just wanted to inform about what he heard from those in Nintendo.

I'm not quite sure why they were surprised by the Isaac AT getting backlash, or why they'd think the GS community is small. I can only support you all and hope that the community grows! Good luck. :D

 

[NessAtc.]

I'm not quite sure why they were surprised by the Isaac AT getting backlash, or why they'd think the GS community is small

This part is what makes me skeptical of your info, but that's neither here or there. We do appreciate the concern, but it doesn't do us any good sitting around here on this thread and talking about it. Golden Sunday 2 may not happen until April, but there are still things that we can do.

 

[StrawHatX]

This part is what makes me skeptical of your info, but that's neither here or there. We do appreciate the concern, but it doesn't do us any good sitting around here on this thread and talking about it. Golden Sunday 2 may not happen until April, but there are still things that we can do.

Yeah.... I find that information to be skeptical as well. I find it weird that Isaac was always meant to be an AT when he was completely removed from Smash 4. So..... you’re telling me Nintendo was planning on putting him back as an AT despite apparently not having any idea Isaac was wanted....? And then only after they found out he was wanted they threw in a costume?

That sounds a little off to me.

 

[Organization XIII]

I posted what my NoA connection said in the Geno thread, since that's where I'm at most of the time. Posted a screenshot of his message in particular, but I'll post it here for good measure. GS fans NEED to follow through with his advice if they want Isaac in the future:

View attachment 180464

I get what he's trying to say but that's not going to happen. We aren't going to push for one or the other, we are going to keep demanding both. Sakurai and Nintendo might not give us Isaac in Smash until GS4 finally happens but we aren't going let them forget we want him there in the meantime.

 

[PolarPanda]

This part is what makes me skeptical of your info, but that's neither here or there. We do appreciate the concern, but it doesn't do us any good sitting around here on this thread and talking about it. Golden Sunday 2 may not happen until April, but there are still things that we can do.

I've verified my source to quite a few people in the Geno thread. He's a brand ambassador for Nintendo, I've tried to do so with some of the oldest users who were interested such as Indecisive Fisher, Fatmanonice, etc. I wish I could prove it to everybody, but that'd probably take a few dozen hours lol. Long story short I've linked a lot of their contact info and their relation to Nintendo to quite a few people that I trust. He's not a random and he's not somebody who isn't tied w/ Nintendo. I won't deny the bit of GS info is odd, but I really wanted to share it here.

(Also, if you doubt I have connections, I was the one who shared the Verge DMs recently as well, the ones with his Enix list and whatnot.)

 

[TempestSurge]

Dark Dawn's release was pretty perfect timing for a Smash cycle, with the project plan starting in 2012. The first Golden Sun was even put on the Wii U virtual console a few months before Smash 4 was set to release. Yet he still wasn't chosen and in fact we end up losing the assist trophy representation. Reflecting on it now, it is funny how we've gotten more this game, with Golden Sun almost hitting a decade of no releases, than when there was a way shorter gap between Dark Dawn and Smash 4.

 

[StormC]

I honestly doubt Sakurai has heard of the Isaac reaction. Nintendo higher-ups sure, but Sakurai? Ehhh...

 

[Nazyrus]

This part is what makes me skeptical of your info, but that's neither here or there. We do appreciate the concern, but it doesn't do us any good sitting around here on this thread and talking about it. Golden Sunday 2 may not happen until April, but there are still things that we can do.

It's called "Nintendo being tone deaf and disconnected from their community", It's nothing new to be surprised about. It isn't something to make me skeptical because it's precedented and that's just how they are, it's just yet another dumb moment of theirs, when they only realize half way what fans want and still blue ball them. Also, if you talk about donig something and not just talking about it, you're already failing at it lol, so let's do something about it. I already am part of Operation Daybreak, a movement that is starting to be made to revive some franchises, mainly Golden Sun.

 

[Organization XIII]

It's called "Nintendo being tone deaf and disconnected from their community", It's nothing new to be surprised about. It isn't something to make me skeptical because it's precedented and that's just how they are, it's just yet another dumb moment of theirs, when they only realize half way what fans want and still blue ball them. Also, if you talk about donig something and not just talking about it, you're already failing at it lol, so let's do something about it. I already am part of Operation Daybreak, a movement that is starting to be made to revive some franchises, mainly Golden Sun.

Normally you'd be correct but the ballot happened. They literally have a list of all the most demanded and wanted characters in their possession. It's kind of hard to be surprised at fans wanting something when the company literally has something that already says that.

 

[StrawHatX]

I honestly doubt Sakurai has heard of the Isaac reaction. Nintendo higher-ups sure, but Sakurai? Ehhh...

Do you mean the opposite?

Why would the Nintendo higher-ups know about the Smash community’s reaction to certain characters and not Sakurai himself?

 

[NessAtc.]

It's called "Nintendo being tone deaf and disconnected from their community", It's nothing new to be surprised about. It isn't something to make me skeptical because it's precedented and that's just how they are, it's just yet another dumb moment of theirs, when they only realize half way what fans want and still blue ball them. Also, if you talk about donig something and not just talking about it, you're already failing at it lol, so let's do something about it. I already am part of Operation Daybreak, a movement that is starting to be made to revive some franchises, mainly Golden Sun.

It's Nintendo of Japan that's historically tone deaf, not Nintendo of America, and yet in the information it's Nintendo of America that's depicted as uncharacteristically tone-deaf.

 

[KoopaSaki]

Here is the entire archive of polar pandas information that went down in the geno boards. It seems our final hope for Isaac to get into smash bros is to get golden sun back. We must push more than ever fellow adepts. It’s do or die.

 

[Nazyrus]

Normally you'd be correct but the ballot happened. They literally have a list of all the most demanded and wanted characters in their possession. It's kind of hard to be surprised at fans wanting something when the company literally has something that already says that.

Like I said, it's nothing new that Nintendo is disconnected and tone deaf. The ballot just pleased a very few and left a bunch of highly requested in the dust and giving us something stupidly random like piranha plant. Ballot existing doesn't really mean much if they stopped already after just giving us one or two top requested characters. Hopefully DLC will have some of them still, but sadly Isaac already wasn't one of them and they were tone deaf about what we really wanted. I appreciate we got a mii costume and all that, but it's NOT what we wanted.

 

[StormC]

Do you mean the opposite?

Why would the Nintendo higher-ups know about the Smash community’s reaction to certain characters and not Sakurai himself?

People at Treehouse and stuff is what I mean. People who actively lurk social media, especially in the west. Less so the developer who is probably absolutely swamped with daily responsibilities and duties in a development studio.

 

[KoopaSaki]

I believe I posted it before, but ATs are not going to be playable at all in Wave 1. That's for sure. And as mentioned in the past, Wave 2 hasn't been discussed at all yet. If there's a wave 2, it's undecided. So ATs have a chance if we ever get a second wave. The fighter pass will NOT include any characters who are ATs. Mii costumes might have a very slim chance, but since he was told they're compensation, I'd be incredibly skeptical of any mii costume characters being in this fighter pass.

I got new info. I'll post a screenshot soon, just asking him to make sure it's ok. But for now, I'll say this: unfortunately Isaac was never considered.

It's because the GS franchise is pretty much dead, apparently. Geno at least has a shot because he is tied to the Mario RPG franchise as a whole, which include the Mario & Luigi games, which are still going strong. (And he's heavily tied to Mario's history). GS was definitely big for the GBA-era and DS era to a smaller extent, but he's not quite considered retro yet or anything.

He got an AT and mii costume to compensate his fans. Apparently NoA did NOT expect the backlash.

Well, I blanked out his name. He seems to be offline and I can't get ahold of him, but he's told me numerous time he doesn't mind me sharing his info, so long as I don't give his name out. This is what my source sent me today (also, don't judge Discord light theme also, I was the Sabi person he was tagging, haha)
View attachment 180462

Nintendo hasn't been thinking of ATs as a bad thing. TBH, in smash 4 the backlash to ATs was much smaller. Isaac was a cut AT, so they saw people were worried about his AT being cut, and brought it back. Truly, the best thing to do is push the narrative that AT is just a graveyard and that it upsets people. That, and they only see massive demand most of the time. While Isaac demand is huge, it didn't reach them nearly as well as the Ridley and K Rool demands. Isaac fans just need to be more vocal AT Nintendo, and need to be more vocal for a NEW GAME.

It would definitely be bad news for any character who receives a mii costume as DLC. That'd be a deconfirmation for wave 1 at the very least. At that point, all people could do is push hard for a wave 2.

RIP Dixie and black knight, for now.

I'm going to leave this here, and I'll maybe expand on it later with proof: Hitagi was never red herring'd, and they actually did not take back their names (besides maybe Katalina). Something else happened to them as Verge implied. Hitagi will be pissed at me mentioning this, but it's their fault for being rude to me and somebody else informing me of it. However, one of the names they mentioned may have been leakbait, all I'm saying is that their statement about being misled is actually a cover up. Something else happened.

It’s a long timeline, but we might get a lead from all this for our campaign.

 

[Organization XIII]

Like I said, it's nothing new that Nintendo is disconnected and tone deaf. The ballot just pleased a very few and left a bunch of highly requested in the dust and giving us something stupidly random like piranha plant. Ballot existing doesn't really mean much if they stopped already after just giving us one or two top requested characters. Hopefully DLC will have some of them still, but sadly Isaac already wasn't one of them and they were tone deaf about what we really wanted. I appreciate we got a mii costume and all that, but it's NOT what we wanted.

But they can't be tone deaf when they have the ballot in fact they still included those characters in some way. Rather then being tone deaf it shows what fans what isn't top priority which isn't being tone deaf. It's just putting the company's priorities over the fans'.

 

[Nazyrus]

It’s a long timeline, but we might get a lead from all this for our campaign.

Good thing parts of the fandom are already working on helping GS as many others already have through all these years. I just hope Nintendo listens once and for all if there is a wave 2. Hopefully knowingi the backlash will let them know what our passion for the game and the character is and they finally act on it. I'm certainly gonna do as much as i can to help with it.

 

[Deleted member]

I posted what my NoA connection said in the Geno thread, since that's where I'm at most of the time. Posted a screenshot of his message in particular, but I'll post it here for good measure. GS fans NEED to follow through with his advice if they want Isaac in the future:

View attachment 180464

If this is true (and not that I doubt you, because I have to be a little sketchy with any news about stuff that involves things Sakurai will not come forward about), then I'm going to campaign for the Assist Trophy battle mode.

And, of course, the Golden Sun sequel or remake.

 

[THE 6r]

Hey! Where have you been? You missed quite a bit. Long story short, we’ve learned so far that of all the non-playable rep franchises in Smash, Golden Sun (along with RH coming behind us), has the most content out of them. 8 Spirits, Isaac AT, Isaac Mii Costume, two songs and a Golden Sun Spirit Event.

We’ve shifted from “Isaac being suspiciously absent (pre Nov Direct)” to “Isaac being suspiciously present”. What raises a lot of eyebrows is that Golden Sun did not even get at least one new song. Only the two ported from Smash 4 (Felix/Doom Dragon Brawl Remix & Dark Dawn Weyard rip). DLC states, however, that we would get a character, a stage AND music. Also, the Mii costume looks tons better compared to Isaac’s AT. Hmm? It all probably means nothing, but it’s interesting to point out, right?

Also, we’ve been talking how there might actually be a GS game next year or so on the horizon.

How have you been?

Woah. That's kinda insane. Life's been holding me up as of late and now that I'm back to this revelation it makes me wonder what exactly is going on in this game. Sakurai seems to have some plan in place that nobody knows about.


BTW: It's good to be back.

 

[SonicLink125]

If I’ve read all this info correctly, then we’ve made a dent and that’s a good sign. It’s time to turn that dent into a big hole!

 

[SPEN18]

I guess the thing that's hard about pushing for a character from a "dead" series is that companies expect people to be obsessed with everything that's new and upcoming; it's harder to see the love for older stuff when you're focusing on getting everybody interested in the new stuff.

"Sakurai is still only wants to focus on fighters from existing series...Duck Hunt, ROB, etc, even if they don't have a series, are part of nintendo history"
If this is true then this is a trash reason to exclude a character. Why is ROB a part of Nintendo history but Golden Sun is not? Because one's from the 80s and the other isn't? Okay lol that's ridiculous.

And that's not to say ROB isn't a part of Nintendo history; he definitely is. To be clear, I'm not trying to compare ROB's legacy to Golden Sun's either. But Sakurai and Nintendo really have to move on from just focusing on the NES days. That's like only teaching kids about WWII but nothing after. Sure, WWII was big, but a lot of important stuff happened after that, too. This whole mindset of "retro means everything up to the NES" has to stop. Why do we only get NES games online? They're easier to emulate, I'll give them that, but really there's no reason the Switch shouldn't be able to run games from later consoles.

-------

With Mother, I do actually really appreciate the love it's gotten through Smash. Especially with all this "recognizability" and "relevancy" nonsense, it's awesome that Mother's been able to hold onto its representation in Smash.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

If Sakurai and co. didn't realize how popular K. Rool was until the Smash Ballot, I'm not surprised NoA was shocked at the Isaac backlash. The best part about this insider info is that we know for sure what to aim for.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

There we go friends.

 

[StrawHatX]

If Sakurai and co. didn't realize how popular K. Rool was until the Smash Ballot, I'm not surprised NoA was shocked at the Isaac backlash. The best part about this insider info is that we know for sure what to aim for.

The only way NoA wouldn’t know about Isaac’s popularity is if NoJ and Sakurai didn’t bother to show them the Ballot results. Because they’ve had that crap for 3 years now and there’s no way Isaac wasn’t at least in the top 10–15.

 

[Silo777]

Not saying I necessarily believe this info, but it does line up with what I deemed as the most likely “Isaac in DLC” outcome. So I don’t talk your ear off, I’ll shorten it: Sakurai couldn’t get past Isaac’s dormant series to make him a fighter back in 2015, so he made him pretty much everything except that to compensate. Later into the development of the game, they got word of something. A Golden Sun game is in development. With that news, the last glass wall holding Isaac back is shattered, and they’re able to make Isaac a DLC character, which could explain some things like the Rathalos Tweet, the timing of the trademark, and lack of any new music despite getting everything else.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Not saying I necessarily believe this info, but it does line up with what I deemed as the most likely “Isaac in DLC” outcome. So I don’t talk your ear off, I’ll shorten it: Sakurai couldn’t get past Isaac’s dormant series to make him a fighter back in 2015, so he made him pretty much everything except that to compensate. Later into the development of the game, they got word of something. A Golden Sun game is in development. With that news, the last glass wall holding Isaac back is shattered, and they’re able to make Isaac a DLC character, which could explain some things like the Rathalos Tweet, the timing of the trademark, and lack of any new music despite getting everything else.

I disagree on the "couldn't get past Isaac's dormant series" argument. I think it would've been fine if there was enough time, there just wasn't enough time for Isaac with everything else going on. That's why dormant franchises are less likely rather than never happening. Other things take priority.

 

[Silo777]

I disagree on the "couldn't get past Isaac's dormant series" argument. I think it would've been fine if there was enough time, there just wasn't enough time for Isaac with everything else going on. That's why dormant franchises are less likely rather than never happening. Other things take priority.

That could very much also be the case. Nevertheless, the rest of the theory remains the same no matter which of the two was the real issue, just replace “Isaac is now realizable for DLC” with “Isaac is now higher priority for DLC”

 

[FlawedAI]

Not saying I necessarily believe this info, but it does line up with what I deemed as the most likely “Isaac in DLC” outcome. So I don’t talk your ear off, I’ll shorten it: Sakurai couldn’t get past Isaac’s dormant series to make him a fighter back in 2015, so he made him pretty much everything except that to compensate. Later into the development of the game, they got word of something. A Golden Sun game is in development. With that news, the last glass wall holding Isaac back is shattered, and they’re able to make Isaac a DLC character, which could explain some things like the Rathalos Tweet, the timing of the trademark, and lack of any new music despite getting everything else.

Not sure the dormant part was true, I think it more comes down to Isaac just missed the cut, in terms of time, but I think Isaac is number one in Sakurai's mind for DLC, but the new Golden Sun is what convinces him to make it happen.

 

[Bladebreaker]

The first Super Smash Bros. came out in '99. By that time, Donkey Kong was 18 years old ('81), Mario Bros. (Luigi's debut) was 16 years old ('83), Legend of Zelda and Metroid were 16 years old ('86), the Mother series was 10 years old ('89; Mother 2 was 5 years old), Super Mario World (Yoshi's debut) and F-Zero were 9 year old ('90), Kirby was 7 years old ('92), Star Fox was 6 years old ('93), and Pokemon was 3 years old ('96). Game & Watch was 19 years old ('80), Ice Climber was 17 years old ('85), and Fire Emblem was 9 years old ('90); tack on +2 years for their debut in Melee.

Both the Game Boy Advance and Golden Sun are currently 17 years old. Both are historically relevant by any practical measure.

I feel like I was getting at something here, but I've forgotten now.

 

[KoopaSaki]

Not sure the dormant part was true, I think it more comes down to Isaac just missed the cut, in terms of time, but I think Isaac is number one in Sakurai's mind for DLC, but the new Golden Sun is what convinces him to make it happen.

I’m all for that, but how can isaac happen though if ATs and mii costumes won’t get their character promotions in wave one of dlc? We really have to hope for a wave two at this point given what polar pandas source said.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

I’m all for that, but how can isaac happen though if ATs and mii costumes won’t get their character promotions in wave one of dlc? We really have to hope for a wave two at this point given what polar pandas source said.

Know that the Shadow group is with you guys.

 

[Bladebreaker]

Oh, in other news, Nintendo's content creators program is dead by the end of the year (source). So that's neat.

 

[ZelDan]

Oh, in other news, Nintendo's content creators program is dead by the end of the year (source). So that's neat.

I forgot that was even a thing TBH.