Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[TempestSurge]

Wow I've never realized how low Dixie is on that data poll, yikes. Oh boy, if I get both Dixie and Isaac this game I will actually do as the meme says and never ask for anything ever again.

 

[ZelDan]

Shantae is kinda of weird for me.

As far as indies go, I think her and Shovel KNight were some of the better fits for Smash, and I did actually show some support to her in the past. That said, between the 2 indie characters, I was MUCH more for Shovel Knight than I was Shantae. I just like Shovel Knights game and DLC way more than I do the Shantae series (Pirate's Curse was good, and the GBC game was okay but rough around the edges; Risky's Revenge and HGH were both mediocre and unimpressive IMO).

And then the August direct happened, where some of the Shantae weirdness happens for me. FOr one, Shovel, the indie character I wanted most playable was deconfirmed, which left me bummed when it came to indie stuff in Smash, but then K Rool happened, which showed that "irrelevant" characters had a shot and that fan demand was something Sakurai took notice of (Hell, Shovel Knight being in Ultimate at all is proof of this), which is why I ended up heavily gravitating towards characters like Geno and of course Isaac. I've always wanted Isaac in Smash, and Geno being in Smash has grown on me over the years, but just didn't think they had a chance due to their circumstances, until K Rool came around and stomped on the relevancy argument.

Anyways, with those two factors in play (my most wanted indie being deconfirmed along with renewed hype for other characters, plus having more hype for other characters in the first place like Elma), Shantae just kinda got left behind on my personal hype train. That said I'm definitely not against Shantae being in smash, and I do still believe she is one of the more fitting indie characters for Smash Bros (that haven't been deconfirmed...), and it'd be neat to see her playable, and I would take her a bajillion times over ****ing Steve. She's probably in the same tier as characters like Bandana Dee, Rayman, or Crash, where I'm not that hyped for them, but would still be kinda happy to see them make it in. I will say that if Shantae isn't playable, I think she does atleast deserve assist trophy status like Shovel Knight.

(Wow this ended up longer than I thought it'd be.)

 

[Delta64]

Wow I've never realized how low Dixie is on that data poll, yikes. Oh boy, if I get both Dixie and Isaac this game I will actually do as the meme says and never ask for anything ever again.

Careful what you say. I said something similar: that if ,, and are revealed I wouldn't ask for anything. Yet here I am asking for Isaac.

 

[ZelDan]

Wow I've never realized how low Dixie is on that data poll, yikes. Oh boy, if I get both Dixie and Isaac this game I will actually do as the meme says and never ask for anything ever again.

Well, Chrom and Dark Samus aren't on that list at all and yet Sakurai recognized them both as highly requested characters and added them to Smash.

Granted, both Dark Samus and Chrom were both echoes, and I know how controversial echo status is amongst the dixie fanbase, so...

 

[TempestSurge]

Careful what you say. I said something similar: that if ,, and are revealed I wouldn't ask for anything. Yet here I am asking for Isaac.

Funnily enough, I can't actually name any other characters that would effect me if they did get in. Like I'd totally get behind reps from Sin&Punishment or Advance Wars, but it'd just be me wanting just for the sake of it lol.

Well, Chrom and Dark Samus aren't on that list at all and yet Sakurai recognized them both as highly requested characters and added them to Smash.

Granted, both Dark Samus and Chrom were both echoes, and I know how controversial echo status is amongst the dixie fanbase, so...

I'm more of an anomaly in that regard. Like would I want Dixie to be unique, well of course. But I'd take her getting in at all, and being an echo gives her even more of a shot than trying to compete for the unique spots that are already have tough competition. Straight up, she's no Isabelle so I don't even expect her to get the semi clone treatment but I can be surprised lol. The way I see it, her getting echo'd isn't the end of the world for me. At least she'll get more attention, fan art and people talking about her in gameplay videos etc. than if she wasn't in the game at all.

Also I forgot to mention how cool Isaac is.

 

[ZelDan]

Funnily enough, I can't actually name any other characters that would effect me if they did get in. Like I'd totally get behind reps from Sin&Punishment or Advance Wars, but it'd just be me wanting just for the sake of it lol.



I'm more of an anomaly in that regard. Like would I want Dixie to be unique, well of course. But I'd take her getting in at all, and being an echo gives her even more of a shot than trying to compete for the unique spots that are already have tough competition. Straight up, she's no Isabelle so I don't even expect her to get the semi clone treatment but I can be surprised lol. The way I see it, her getting echo'd isn't the end of the world for me. At least she'll get more attention, fan art and people talking about her in gameplay videos etc. than if she wasn't in the game at all.

Also I forgot to mention how cool Isaac is.

One thing I would be okay with for Dixie is if she got the "Chrom treatment" and got DK's recovery for her up special while echoing Diddy.

Then again I wonder if that's even possible since Dixie has different proportion to DK, while Chrom, Ike, and Roy are all similar-ish.

 

[N3ON]

Well, Chrom and Dark Samus aren't on that list at all and yet Sakurai recognized them both as highly requested characters and added them to Smash.

Granted, both Dark Samus and Chrom were both echoes, and I know how controversial echo status is amongst the dixie fanbase, so...

Yeah, but them being "highly requested" is in the context and with the caveat of being clone candidates. Of characters that could make plausible clones, they're both pretty popular.

I know Sakurai didn't specify that, but the selection process between normal characters and clones have never been the same.

 

[NessAtc.]

Yeah, but them being "highly requested" is in the context and with the caveat of being clone candidates. Of characters that could make plausible clones, they're both pretty popular.

I know Sakurai didn't specify that, but the selection process between normal characters and clones have never been the same.

It's almost a given that they were a "well, we can do these characters, so why not" thought, since if they weren't they'd be fully unique.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Hey guys I think the Shantae thread may want to hear this. What are your thoughts on Shantae making it into the roster? Think she has a chance or is Steve going to take the slot of indie representative?

I’m certain she’ll be in the game. But sadly as an asssit. Shovel knight was way more popular in the ballot era and he only became an assist. I sadly foresee the same for her. However, assuming that the series gets another entry or two in the next few years, she’s an obvious bet for the entry that follows ultimate. I sadly don’t think she had the ballot pressence or the industry weight needed to be Included. And that’s a damn shame from my perspective as I’m a huge fan of the series and would love her in smash.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

Hey guys I think the Shantae thread may want to hear this. What are your thoughts on Shantae making it into the roster? Think she has a chance or is Steve going to take the slot of indie representative?

Nintendo has been hesitant with Indie content in Smash, Commander Video had a regular trophy on Wii U and Shovel Knight is an assist trophy in this iteration. In Japan, the only popular indie candidate is Sans, while the rest is pretty much nobodies there; while overseas indies are hit or miss on most cases, some love 'em, some hate 'em; so they probably can't pull a Ridley (not to mention they weren't as controversial).
If Steve is playable, I feel that's more of a business desicion rather than an achievement for indies in Smash, and speaking of business desicions, I feel like the first indie in Smash should be more universal than her, if you're going to have only one indie, make it so they can pull more people into the game, because I doubt she can due to being more Nintendo-centered, which could help her on a fanservice oriented roster like Ultimate's, but what do I know.
I'd say she has a low chance, like 10%-25%.

 

[EarlTamm]

I’m certain she’ll be in the game. But sadly as an asssit. Shovel knight was way more popular in the ballot era and he only became an assist. I sadly foresee the same for her. However, assuming that the series gets another entry or two in the next few years, she’s an obvious bet for the entry that follows ultimate. I sadly don’t think she had the ballot pressence or the industry weight needed to be Included. And that’s a damn shame from my perspective as I’m a huge fan of the series and would love her in smash.

I will say, she has more industry weight than most other indie characters, being pretty much the oldest video game considered an indie, as her first game came before even Quote. She has an excellent history with Nintendo(With Nintendo only ever increasing there support of "Nindies"), and I think people really underestimate her ballot presence. Wayforward personally emailed all 18,558 backers of HGH to ask for there support in the ballot, and that is not even accounting for the many people they probably got to vote for her due to the huge social media campain they had. Not only that, there is some good evidence that she could be under a NCC agreement.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Shantae is a super weird one for me to think about. Mostly cause I consider her and most of the indie fighters to be such non-entities as far as playable status. I really like most of the indie choices I see (Sans would annoy the **** out of me for getting in this soon, but I like Undertale well enough). Shantae, Quote, and Shovel Knight are great characters in my own right and I think that any one would be a good indie rep. But I just have never taken us getting an indie rep seriously because they seemed so terribly far removed from what Sakurai considers in third parties. Indie reps are also going to be the biggest scapegoats for hate from other fans too if they get in.

Shantae is effectively the last one standing, and I feel like people are reaching a lot to get the amount of support for her. She’s undoubtedly the longest running indie candidate, but she did originate through Capcom of all things for GBC so maybe she isn’t indie enough? That’s a bit of a personal take for that part. But the whole NDA and NCC stuff really irks me. Like the burden of proof falls upon someone making a claim, but these two agreements by nature can’t be proved until the game releases sort of thing. This extends to all characters that use this as something relevant that the voice actor didn’t respond to a tweet or such and such. That’s where so much of the Shantae support goes is that they campaigned for her in Smash and then went radio silent on fans tweeting despite being active as a company.

That could mean everything or absolutely nothing. Those same things don’t even have to apply to Smash Bros as she could appear in something else out of the blue we don’t even know of yet. Or maybe they just gave up on the concept after the campaign wasn’t successful and don’t wish to discuss it further. There are so many reasons that could explain this behavior and I don’t think assuming Smash is the most logical one.

That said, her biggest chance I think oddly lies with Sakurai. It’s possible she checks enough boxes of interest that he decided to make her a playable fighter. And then all of the stuff would fall into line for Smash.

But honestly, if Sakurai doesn’t have a personal interest in Shantae, I think she’s pretty doomed all around. When fans have requested characters like Isaac and Bandanna Dee that require no licensing, Geno whose licensing is pretty much already on board, Banjo who has an infinitely more important tie to Nintendo and so on, I just don’t see her taking priority. Unless somehow indie rep is a serious thing.

Minecraft would seem to be an indie rep, but might be the most gross mistreatment of such a title and I’d hate Steve even more if that’s how he was handled.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

I will say, she has more industry weight than most other indie characters, being pretty much the oldest video game considered an indie, as her first game came before even Quote. She has an excellent history with Nintendo(With Nintendo only ever increasing there support of "Nindies"), and I think people really underestimate her ballot presence. Wayforward personally emailed all 18,558 backers of HGH to ask for there support in the ballot, and that is not even accounting for the many people they probably got to vote for her due to the huge social media campain they had. Not only that, there is some good evidence that she could be under a NCC agreement.

While all of that is true. The question on my part is forced to rudely become, who cared about the first shantae game prior to the entries that followed it? By all metrics it sold obscenely poor, and came out at the perfectly wrong time to catch eyes. There was a gap there where she was just another game absorbed into the ether of video games. Being a nindie icon is noticeable, but given that Nintendo has nearly every indie developer under the sun in their ecosystem now, it's not as special as it once was. And even if the series had just a trophy and nothing more, Wayforward would still be under a Non disclosure agreement given how tight Nintendo has been on information this time around.

The email campaign was indeed huge, and if she does get in that action will have been what got her there almost certainly. But again if you run the publicly available numbers https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469) and project them against the totality of the ballot, (2.16%) Shantae only walks out with about 38 thousand votes. That's really damn big. But it's nowhere near as high priority as characters like K rool, Banjo, or Isaac who ranked far ahead of her. She's earned her place in smash, ranking ahead of Geno here makes that much certain, but what place she earned is seriously up for debate. If these projections of mine are accurate, and the poll the percentages came from were all legitamte and reflective of reality, it would not be a shock to me if they had to seriously consider her. But with all that in mind, and shovel knight being ahead of her and in basically the exact same situation, I just can't see it. As painful as that is to say as a fan of the series.

Anyways I really wish you guys luck. My main man Isaac has my heart and soul right now but if I had to pick another it'd be her.

 

[SonicLink125]

Sorry for being off topic, but am I hearing things right that Banjo&Kazooie are on Nintendo's official website now?!?

 

[TheCJBrine]

Sorry for being off topic, but am I hearing things right that Banjo&Kazooie are on Nintendo's official website now?!?

Only UK's website.

 

[pholtos]

Music is up for this week. It's Lost Painting from Castlevania. Arrangement by Tetsuya Shibata.

 

[Q-Long]

Great song, hope to see some Castlevania Bloodlines stuff

 

[EarlTamm]

Only UK's website.

What?

 

[Metocles]

All of the characters you use for examples are from franchises that already exist in Smash Bros., which is exactly my point. You're not upending a franchise from the grave, you're just doing a single character. The dead Nintendo franchises are the ones that don't have playable fighters sadly, and Golden Sun falls into that realm. Third parties don't really play by our standard rules as Mega Man and Castlevania exist in Smash as the sort of legacy fighters from the NES era that they're so heavily associated with. The names of those franchises (Even if now dormant) carry a ton of weight. Living franchises certainly have much, much, much more opportunity to reintroduce characters. Also, Ridley is most certainly not dead and continually shows up in Metroid games and references to the franchise.

Even Geno who screams irrelevance belongs to Mario for all practical purposes. Though my ideas of him were actually in a completely unrelated point to the irrelevance discussion I was making. That entire part of my post was hey, we can at least point to Sakurai knowing who he is and taking time and money to license him which would be his primary hurdle other than priorities in development. That's a much more concrete sort of proof than many characters have sort of thing.

Again, my fear is that the franchise element of being dead is an obstacle that could be too far to overcome for even someone as supported as Isaac. The ONLY precedent we have with this is Pit and Kid Icarus, and well, that's objectively Sakurai bias deciding to add an older retro franchise and then personally ushering it to the new era. Can this happen with a franchise that Sakurai isn't so personally keen on (I mean he's never mentioned Golden Sun in any capacity). I personally don't see why not with the amount of fan demand Golden Sun and Isaac seem to have for Smash in general, but Sakurai has always had questionable reasons for not including characters previously.

Also, yeah no, the handheld arena is not a point I'm going to agree on as him having some sort of bias against handheld inclusion. People have already brought up Pokemon and that comprises nine of our characters so far (Possibly ten). Of the seven Fire Emblem characters, five of them come from handheld FE games. Kid Icarus is more associated with handhelds than console at this point (two handheld games, one on NES). Isabelle and Animal Crossing as a whole likely owes everything to the handheld side where it absolutely ballooned. Electroplankton of all things has a stage. There's a lot of handheld selection already going on. You're actually pretty hard pressed to find Nintendo franchises that are handheld exclusive beyond Golden Sun, so I think there's little merit to saying that Golden Sun isn't included because of it's handheld origins.

Finally, and I hate to do this because I'm essentially validating some of the relevancy argument, Golden Sun is not currently relevant. There has not been a single reference to the series for eight years at this point. Relevancy relies on the basis that games reached a large audience and have had recent releases. Golden Sun has comparatively missed the boat release wise with all three of the games in relation to Smash Bros. Dark Dawn was the closest and that game did not do particularly well. If Nintendo does not see a future or an immediate presence of the character, then that is how characters and franchises are deemed irrelevant. You're correct, there isn't an exact metric to this argument, but there's a general flow people assume when using it.

Isaac would be get in to the game in spite of relevancy, not because he was proven to be relevant. That's why I'll be ecstatic if Golden Sun does indeed get playable representation in Smash. King K. Rool cracked the surface of relevancy with the point that fans could override it. Golden Sun is the next step in having fans usher in not only a dead character, but an ENTIRE DEAD FRANCHISE just through continual love and support and shatter the notions of relevancy. Then we can stop hearing about how it plays roles in character choices completely. As it stands, we're so, so close to being able to do that, and that's exactly what I want to happen. I want Isaac himself as much as I want to be able to lay that argument truly to rest.

I'll just sort of conclude my counters and we can agree to disagree on a lot of this because it's clear we're not changing each others minds as far as both of our points go.

This is exactly why relevancy is garbage. So what if Golden Sun's last game was released 8 years ago? So what that we haven't seen Isaac show up in anything for a long time? First and foremost, this Nintendo crossover game is a celebration of everything noteworthy that Nintendo was involved in as a game company. Sure, you have to cross a certain threshold in terms of that importance scale. If the character and their series is just too obscure or not notable, especially when it comes to 3rd parties, it's going to be difficult warranting their inclusion.

That bar isn't nearly as high as we think though, and, say what you want, but Isaac and Golden Sun have surpassed that long ago. I've said and I still contend that Isaac should have been playable in Brawl. The parallels between GS and Pikmin are almost eerie in comparison. You have another trilogy of acclaimed RPGs with the Mother series who didn't do nearly as successfully yet they have two reps. Fire Emblem took 15 games to get a single game to surpass a million copies sold and remained unknown in everywhere but Japan and they now have enough characters to sink a ship. Xenoblade Chronicles got a character in from their first game which also doesn't match up to the success of the original Golden Sun. All of these franchises are deserving and pass that bar, though. If anything, I've actually shown that Golden Sun had more than enough relevancy to be in by spades at this point, but it's just passed on every single time.

The only thing I can figure is the handheld argument and I don't think you can so easily shoot it down. Yeah, tons of characters come from handheld games from franchises that had a spin-off release on the various systems or just jumped to them altogether. Something else all of them have in common? They started on home consoles, all of them. Pokemon, I don't even know why I'm explaining this again, is the grand super asterisk middle finger to the rule because of overly obvious reasons. I really shouldn't have to delve into that.

Sakurai is an old-fashioned gamer and the original consoles are the things that mark great importance. The original Gameboy was revolutionary, but a lot of people sort of forget that it wasn't because of the great games that came out with it. Most Gameboy games were average to very poor ports of games that already existed on the modern consoles at the time. You could play Duke Nukem, Tetris or Mortal Kombat on the go. That was the whole point. It really wasn't until games like Pokemon arrived that redefined how handhelds were viewed. Nowadays, we see some handheld consoles get more prominent game support than their home console counterpart, but I digress. The one observation that I see is that Sakurai has now basically gotten all of the NES and SNES Nintendo characters of importance. Kid Icarus was released alongside Metroid on the NES as some of the early games on the system. He's a game historian and his selection of characters show it.

Just because Fire Emblem transitioned to the GBA/DS/3DS for a long time doesn't mean the roots weren't firmly planted in Famicom origins. I think Sakurai sees any series that have made transitions like that just an extension of the arm of its home console underpinnings. Oftentimes, being way-back characters. While there aren't many handheld origin series, they do exist. Rhythm Heaven being a notable one and, for all intents and purposes, Advance Wars as that was the first time the series actually had any characters to borrow for a game like Smash. The severe lack of anything worth noting from those games in Smash games is quite troublesome. I dunno, treat this as an observation because I don't see many things to refute it.

 

[TheCJBrine]

What?

Nintendo UK's website.

Someone on the Banjo-Kazooie thread said B-K being on there (along with some other Rare titles) isn't new.

I do find it odd that Conker and GoldenEye aren't on there, though.

 

[EarlTamm]

Nintendo UK's website.

Someone on the Banjo-Kazooie thread said B-K being on there (along with some other Rare titles) isn't new.

I do find it odd that Conker and GoldenEye aren't on there, though.

Ok then. Anyway...

While all of that is true. The question on my part is forced to rudely become, who cared about the first shantae game prior to the entries that followed it? By all metrics it sold obscenely poor, and came out at the perfectly wrong time to catch eyes. There was a gap there where she was just another game absorbed into the ether of video games. Being a nindie icon is noticeable, but given that Nintendo has nearly every indie developer under the sun in their ecosystem now, it's not as special as it once was. And even if the series had just a trophy and nothing more, Wayforward would still be under a Non disclosure agreement given how tight Nintendo has been on information this time around.

The email campaign was indeed huge, and if she does get in that action will have been what got her there almost certainly. But again if you run the publicly available numbers https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469) and project them against the totality of the ballot, (2.16%) Shantae only walks out with about 38 thousand votes. That's really damn big. But it's nowhere near as high priority as characters like K rool, Banjo, or Isaac who ranked far ahead of her. She's earned her place in smash, ranking ahead of Geno here makes that much certain, but what place she earned is seriously up for debate. If these projections of mine are accurate, and the poll the percentages came from were all legitamte and reflective of reality, it would not be a shock to me if they had to seriously consider her. But with all that in mind, and shovel knight being ahead of her and in basically the exact same situation, I just can't see it. As painful as that is to say as a fan of the series.

Anyways I really wish you guys luck. My main man Isaac has my heart and soul right now but if I had to pick another it'd be her.

Hey, I hope we get what we are all hoping for! Be it Geno, Isaac, Shantae, B&K, etc. I just know that whatever happens, it will certainly be exciting.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'll just sort of conclude my counters and we can agree to disagree on a lot of this because it's clear we're not changing each others minds as far as both of our points go.

This is exactly why relevancy is garbage. So what if Golden Sun's last game was released 8 years ago? So what that we haven't seen Isaac show up in anything for a long time? First and foremost, this Nintendo crossover game is a celebration of everything noteworthy that Nintendo was involved in as a game company. Sure, you have to cross a certain threshold in terms of that importance scale. If the character and their is just too obscure or not notable, especially when it comes to 3rd parties, it's going to be difficult warranting their inclusion.

That bar isn't nearly as high as we think though, and, say what you want, but Isaac and Golden Sun have surpassed that long ago. I've said and I still contend that Isaac should have been playable in Brawl. The parallels between GS and Pikmin are almost eerie in comparison. You have another trilogy of acclaimed RPGs with the Mother series who didn't do nearly as successfully yet they have two reps. Fire Emblem took 15 games to get a single game to surpass a million copies sold and remained unknown in everywhere but Japan and they now have enough characters to sink a ship. Xenoblade Chronicles got a character in from their first game which also doesn't match up to the success of the original Golden Sun. All of these franchises are deserving and pass that bar, though. If anything, I've actually shown that Golden Sun had more than enough relevancy to be in by spades at this point, but it's just passed on every single time.

The only thing I can figure is the handheld argument and I don't think you can so easily shoot it down. Yeah, tons of characters come from handheld games from franchises that had a spin-off release on the various systems or just jumped to them altogether. Something else all of them have in common? They started on home consoles, all of them. Pokemon, I don't even know why I'm explaining this again, is the grand super asterisk middle finger to the rule because of overly obvious reasons. I really shouldn't have to delve into that.

Sakurai is an old-fashioned gamer and the original consoles are the things that mark great importance. The original Gameboy was revolutionary, but a lot of people sort of forget that it wasn't because of the great games that came out with it. Most Gameboy games were average to very poor ports of games that already existed on the modern consoles at the time. You could play Duke Nukem, Tetris or Mortal Kombat on the go. That was the whole point. It really wasn't until games like Pokemon arrived that redefined how handhelds were viewed. Nowadays, we see some handheld consoles get more prominent game support than their home console counterpart, but I digress. The one observation that I see is that Sakurai has now basically gotten all of the NES and SNES Nintendo characters of importance. Kid Icarus was released alongside Metroid on the NES as some of the early games on the system. He's a game historian and his selection of characters show it.

Just because Fire Emblem transitioned to the GBA/DS/3DS for a long time doesn't mean the roots weren't firmly planted in Famicom origins. I think Sakurai sees any series that have made transitions like that just an extension of the arm of its home console underpinnings. Oftentimes, being way-back characters. While there aren't many handheld origin series, they do exist. Rhythm Heaven being a notable one and, for all intents and purposes, Advance Wars as that was the first time the series actually had any characters to borrow for a game like Smash. The severe lack of anything worth noting from those games in Smash games is quite troublesome. I dunno, treat this as an observation because I don't see many things to refute it.

I won't quite leave it at that. I've been saying relevancy has been a serious issue for years with Smash. Looking objectively at every prior roster, much of the roster is based around characters that had successful franchises with futures or recent entries at the time of the specific Smash game's release. That is indeed an observable trend I don't think I need to elaborate on, with the retro picks and an occasional wildcard being the exceptions. Smash is indeed a celebration of all of Nintendo's history, but throughout the history of the series it hasn't always felt like that with a focus on what was currently successful and new. Little Mac and Pit are about the only characters from franchises as opposed to one offs to make it in despite the more questionable futures of their franchise. Pit because Sakurai for all intensive purposes. Again, this is just the general trend we've seen in the past I want to see broken. Relevancy is garbage, I'll certainly agree with you on that. I just think history proves that Sakurai and Nintendo don't. They seem to take relevancy into account with the character decision process. I hope things change with this game, and particularly Isaac.

As for the bar, that's fair, but again, what all those franchises shared at the time of their inclusion was a future. I agree Isaac could have been a contender for Brawl, but he was given an assist trophy. Which was fair at the time despite the decent success of Golden Sun and The Lost Age, Brawl was adding lots of bigger name characters anyways. Then Dark Dawn happened, and between the poor sales and middling reviews/response, Golden Sun was given no real future. And that's likely what cost Isaac/Golden Sun everything going into Smash 4. Nintendo just didn't see any interest in the franchise and pulled the plug for the time being. Hopefully the ballot and our love is what helps them renew interest. I'm really not trying to fight you on Isaac in any way, I'm just pointing out the history that has led to him not being previously included and that Isaac likely still has to deal with some of that stigma moving forward. This all spawned out of my comment that I was afraid fan support might not be enough, and that's a valid fear as a supporter until he is revealed or chances are spent.

The handheld conspiracy just sounds ridiculous to me though. I pointed out a lot of content in the last post from handhelds, and I'll do further stuff here. Smash 3DS as a whole emphasized handheld gaming. Find Mii and Living Room, stages with no relation to anything, were given representation. Tortimer Island comes from New Leaf. The Paper Mario stage for some godforsaken reason took more influence from Sticker Star than the actual Paper Mario games. As far as we know, Rhythm Heaven was considered for Smash 4 and may have even planned and just prevented due to the 3DS. Advance Wars may not have representation, but it certainly belongs to the Famicom Wars series that originated on NES, so I'm really not going to give you that one despite the pseudo re-branding they did.

And I've somehow neglected the largest and most important one: Kirby. Kirby originated on handhelds and is given huge amounts of representation in Smash. If you want to say Pokemon is anomaly for being too big to not be in, fine. But Kirby doesn't come close to that status. Very popular? Yes. Pokemon popular? No. I mean we had a stage with a literal Gameboy on it for Kirby. That's about the most handheld representation I can possibly think of. So no, I don't think Sakurai has some handheld bias going on. Just very little of Nintendo franchise wise actually has origins in handhelds when you start looking into it.

 

[KoopaSaki]

Either

I won't quite leave it at that. I've been saying relevancy has been a serious issue for years with Smash. Looking objectively at every prior roster, much of the roster is based around characters that had successful franchises with futures or recent entries at the time of the specific Smash game's release. That is indeed an observable trend I don't think I need to elaborate on, with the retro picks and an occasional wildcard being the exceptions. Smash is indeed a celebration of all of Nintendo's history, but throughout the history of the series it hasn't always felt like that with a focus on what was currently successful and new. Little Mac and Pit are about the only characters from franchises as opposed to one offs to make it in despite the more questionable futures of their franchise. Pit because Sakurai for all intensive purposes. Again, this is just the general trend we've seen in the past I want to see broken. Relevancy is garbage, I'll certainly agree with you on that. I just think history proves that Sakurai and Nintendo don't. They seem to take relevancy into account with the character decision process. I hope things change with this game, and particularly Isaac.

As for the bar, that's fair, but again, what all those franchises shared at the time of their inclusion was a future. I agree Isaac could have been a contender for Brawl, but he was given an assist trophy. Which was fair at the time despite the decent success of Golden Sun and The Lost Age, Brawl was adding lots of bigger name characters anyways. Then Dark Dawn happened, and between the poor sales and middling reviews/response, Golden Sun was given no real future. And that's likely what cost Isaac/Golden Sun everything going into Smash 4. Nintendo just didn't see any interest in the franchise and pulled the plug for the time being. Hopefully the ballot and our love is what helps them renew interest. I'm really not trying to fight you on Isaac in any way, I'm just pointing out the history that has led to him not being previously included and that Isaac likely still has to deal with some of that stigma moving forward. This all spawned out of my comment that I was afraid fan support might not be enough, and that's a valid fear as a supporter until he is revealed or chances are spent.

The handheld conspiracy just sounds ridiculous to me though. I pointed out a lot of content in the last post from handhelds, and I'll do further stuff here. Smash 3DS as a whole emphasized handheld gaming. Find Mii and Living Room, stages with no relation to anything, were given representation. Tortimer Island comes from New Leaf. The Paper Mario stage for some godforsaken reason took more influence from Sticker Star than the actual Paper Mario games. As far as we know, Rhythm Heaven was considered for Smash 4 and may have even planned and just prevented due to the 3DS. Advance Wars may not have representation, but it certainly belongs to the Famicom Wars series that originated on NES, so I'm really not going to give you that one despite the pseudo re-branding they did.

And I've somehow neglected the largest and most important one: Kirby. Kirby originated on handhelds and is given huge amounts of representation in Smash. If you want to say Pokemon is anomaly for being too big to not be in, fine. But Kirby doesn't come close to that status. Very popular? Yes. Pokemon popular? No. I mean we had a stage with a literal Gameboy on it for Kirby. That's about the most handheld representation I can possibly think of. So no, I don't think Sakurai has some handheld bias going on. Just very little of Nintendo franchise wise actually has origins in handhelds when you start looking into it.

either way golden sun was one of the most successful first game boy advance games and was the premiere rpg on the console. I’m also going to say that with golden sun getting it’s trademark renewed, Nintendo may still have interest in a future entry given the fact dark dawn ended on a cliffhanger.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Either

either way golden sun was one of the most successful first game boy advance games and was the premiere rpg on the console. I’m also going to say that with golden sun getting it’s trademark renewed, Nintendo may still have interest in a future entry given the fact dark dawn ended on a cliffhanger.

I can’t really disagree that the series started out successful. I’m just saying the timing of that success was perhaps bad for its inclusion in Smash originally. And Dark Dawn’s lack of success may have been a huge problem for Isaac moving forward. I’m just saying Isaac might have had a greater hurdle to overcome to playability than most because of his circumstances, which would make his inclusion all the more excellent.

Trademark renewals have been discussed to death, but that is to keep options open. Nintendo rarely lets that sort of thing just go, which is why poor Custom Robo was all the more heartbreaking when the trademark was outright cancelled.

 

[TappyBat]

I can’t really disagree that the series started out successful. I’m just saying the timing of that success was perhaps bad for its inclusion in Smash originally. And Dark Dawn’s lack of success may have been a huge problem for Isaac moving forward. I’m just saying Isaac might have had a greater hurdle to overcome to playability than most because of his circumstances, which would make his inclusion all the more excellent.

Trademark renewals have been discussed to death, but that is to keep options open. Nintendo rarely lets that sort of thing just go, which is why poor Custom Robo was all the more heartbreaking when the trademark was outright cancelled.

open? you mean never to be used again in that case. eternal darkness is stuck in a basement forever with f-zero. "oh people want it back? uhhhh no one likes it. it doesn't sell! oh just renew anyway so people don't take it then burn the corpse with ice climbers and the others"

 

[Xenigma]

Music is up for this week. It's Lost Painting from Castlevania. Arrangement by Tetsuya Shibata.

Damn, I know it's probably a coincidence, but the continued lack of Sakuraba in the weekly music feels really good for Isaac's chances.

(Also, heck yeah more Castlevania music!)

 

[Nazyrus]

Damn, I know it's probably a coincidence, but the continued lack of Sakuraba in the weekly music feels really good for Isaac's chances.

(Also, heck yeah more Castlevania music!)

I checked the amount of Sakuraba work on previous Smash and the fact we have seen literally almost nothing in this one… Time to fix that with GS!

 

[Frosty Pops]

Hey guys I think the Shantae thread may want to hear this. What are your thoughts on Shantae making it into the roster? Think she has a chance or is Steve going to take the slot of indie representative?

I am not sure on Sakurai's stance on indie games in general. But we do have an indie character as an assist (teardrop for shovel knight) so I would not say it is impossible. But as to how she did during the ballot and her demand compared to shovel knight...do you think she did better than him? Cause I honestly couldn't say...But! I would take her 1,000 times over Steve.

Her moveset potential blows Steve out of the water. Transformations, magic which includes fireballs, flying spike spheres, energy shields, teleporting, thunder clouds, etc. And she is also esthetically better suited for Smash as far as her design is concerned.

So would I rather her make it in than Steve? Absolutely, but I am not sure of her chances at this time. I would give her 35-40% chance imo. Which isn't great but not horrible either.

 

[TappyBat]

I checked the amount of Sakuraba work on previous Smash and the fact we have seen literally almost nothing in this one… Time to fix that with GS!

or Tales Of! lloyd needs to come too! Or Yuri.....I'm not particularly choosy when it comes to those two.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

I can’t really disagree that the series started out successful. I’m just saying the timing of that success was perhaps bad for its inclusion in Smash originally. And Dark Dawn’s lack of success may have been a huge problem for Isaac moving forward. I’m just saying Isaac might have had a greater hurdle to overcome to playability than most because of his circumstances, which would make his inclusion all the more excellent.

Trademark renewals have been discussed to death, but that is to keep options open. Nintendo rarely lets that sort of thing just go, which is why poor Custom Robo was all the more heartbreaking when the trademark was outright cancelled.

Honestly dude, I just read all of your comments across the past few pages (hadn't checked the site since yesterday) and basically everything you're saying is on point. It's not going to be popular here because it isn't what people want to hear, but you're absolutely right that if Isaac gets in it will be 100% because of his enduring fan demand as shown through the polls, and not because of any other factor. He missed his shot at getting in through "relevance" of recent games in both Brawl and Sm4sh, and it's clear that if Sakurai had wanted to add Isaac out of personal desire before now, he would have. Instead his Assist Trophy was removed altogether and we were left with two measly music tracks. Given that literally nothing has changed for Golden Sun between Sm4sh and Ultimate except for the fan poll, if (and when, since I still believe it's happening) he does show up, we'll know it's because we the fans never stopped pushing and supporting our boy, just like K. Roodley's fans.

I'm down to support Isaac until the heat death of the universe, but we shouldn't delude ourselves at this point or convince ourselves through faulty logic. It's clear that Sakurai and Nintendo, if left to their own devices, don't really care about Golden Sun the way they care about other franchises, or Isaac would have been in Smash already and the series wouldn't have been ended on a cliffhanger. So if we want to see Isaac and Golden Sun come back, then we need to stay loud and active. Based on the Rathalos tweet and the trademark renewal, I'd say we're succeeding on that score but we can't rest on our laurels.

As for Shantae, I'm sorry but I have to agree with N3ON that her fanbase seems to be really reaching here. I hadn't heard a single peep about her in any previous Smash game or at the time of the poll, and as someone who hasn't played any Shantae games and doesn't have any personal investment in the character, I don't understand why her fans are so convinced she could be playable when Shovel Knight, who is much more popular and influential by almost all measures, was widely agreed to have been massively honored by Nintendo for even being an Assist Trophy. If any indie character is likely to be playable at this rate I think it's Steve, given that Minecraft is the biggest indie franchise in the world, and that only if Microsoft really pushes for it. I'm really not trying to be a hater here but Shantae just seems like a bit of a niche bandwagon pick among specifically the Smashboards and Reddit subcommunities without much external support, although I'm open to being totally wrong and I'll be happy for her (obviously passionate) fanbase if she's in.

 

[Nazyrus]

This is why I was asking before about how was it back then during the ballot times, since I just became a GS fan like 2 months ago lol. I think if K rool fans made it, I have strong hopes we made it as well and we are just about to figure out if that's the case.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

This is why I was asking before about how was it back then during the ballot times, since I just became a GS fan like 2 months ago lol. I think if K rool fans made it, I have strong hopes we made it as well and we are just about to figure out if that's the case.

I think Isaac performed quite well in the ballot. From what people have been able to estimate (and there's every chance that we're wrong but it's the best we have and probably close enough to the truth) Isaac seems to have been in the top 10 in most/all regions, and top 5 in the West if we don't count requests for returning veterans like Snake and Ice Climbers. He was definitely below K. Rool and probably below Ridley in some regions, but I believe he polled exceptionally strongly in Europe particularly.

So if Isaac doesn't make it in somehow it'll be especially tragic since it means he would have just barely missed the cutoff. Like maybe Sakurai said "We're only putting in two of these ballot characters" and that went to K. Rool and Ridley. But even if that's the case and Isaac isn't in the base game it leaves me very confident going into DLC. As Shulk would say, "I'm really feeling it!"

 

[StormC]

Careful what you say. I said something similar: that if ,, and are revealed I wouldn't ask for anything. Yet here I am asking for Isaac.

That's how I was with Banjo. While I'm still thrilled with the roster... I haven't been able to stop thinking about Banjo since K. Rool's reveal, despite not really paying much attention to him before. But a light switch flicked on in my brain when I saw K. Rool and I realized how much I would love Banjo.

Banjo and Isaac both being in would be the zenith. Two dormant characters with fans keeping them alive when their companies won't.

 

[N3ON]

As for Shantae, I'm sorry but I have to agree with N3ON that her fanbase seems to be really reaching here. I hadn't heard a single peep about her in any previous Smash game or at the time of the poll, and as someone who hasn't played any Shantae games and doesn't have any personal investment in the character, I don't understand why her fans are so convinced she could be playable when Shovel Knight, who is much more popular and influential by almost all measures, was widely agreed to have been massively honored by Nintendo for even being an Assist Trophy. If any indie character is likely to be playable at this rate I think it's Steve, given that Minecraft is the biggest indie franchise in the world, and that only if Microsoft really pushes for it. I'm really not trying to be a hater here but Shantae just seems like a bit of a niche bandwagon pick among specifically the Smashboards and Reddit subcommunities without much external support, although I'm open to being totally wrong and I'll be happy for her (obviously passionate) fanbase if she's in.

Well I didn't say she wasn't popular during the ballot, because she was, and her games are good fun (though nothing exceptional). It's just that she's not as popular as the much less-niche Shovel Knight, who himself didn't manage to achieve playability. I think she'd be a neat addition, but I'd be very surprised if that fanbase wasn't ultimately letdown.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Well I didn't say she wasn't popular during the ballot, because she was, and her games are good fun (though nothing exceptional). It's just that she's not as popular as the much less-niche Shovel Knight, who himself didn't manage to achieve playability. I think she'd be a neat addition, but I'd be very surprised if that fanbase wasn't ultimately letdown.

Thanks for clarifying. I'd barely even heard of her franchise before I started posting here in anticipation of Ultimate so I wasn't aware of how popular she was at the time of the ballot, just that anecdotally I didn't hear anything about her or know anyone who supported her. It seems like she could be a nice addition but I think we're in agreement as far as her chances go.

 

[N3ON]

Thanks for clarifying. I'd barely even heard of her franchise before I started posting here in anticipation of Ultimate so I wasn't aware of how popular she was at the time of the ballot, just that anecdotally I didn't hear anything about her or know anyone who supported her. It seems like she could be a nice addition but I think we're in agreement as far as her chances go.

Yeah, it wouldn't be at all surprising if someone outside the western Nintendo/Smash fanbase wasn't overly familiar with her. Plus post-ballot, pre-Shovel Knight, conversation surrounding indies just kinda... dried up.

I take it that both her (and Shovel Knight?) are pretty obscure in Japan, hey?

 

[Wwlink55]

A new image "leak" appeared that has Isaac on the front. Im not too familiar with the series, but can anyone identify if that is a brand new Isaac art right next to Little Mac (towards the left of the image)?

I personally feel this may be fake due to the blurriness (and I swear that Banjo & Kazooie, and the Shadow are weird), but I want to see what you guys think. Mii characters are also missing, oddly enough.

 

[N3ON]

A new image "leak" appeared that has Isaac on the front. Im not too familiar with the series, but can anyone identify if that is a brand new Isaac art right next to Little Mac (towards the left of the image)?

I personally feel this may be fake due to the blurriness (and I swear that Banjo & Kazooie, and the Shadow are weird), but I want to see what you guys think. Mii characters are also missing, oddly enough.

I'm hesitant to buy into this leak as of yet, but I do think it's new art for all the unrevealed characters. And I agree Banjo especially looks strange.

 

[Wwlink55]

I'm hesitant to buy into this leak as of yet, but I do think it's new art for all the unrevealed characters. And I agree Banjo especially looks strange.

The possible roster is also weird. This comes from /v/, so it isn't the most reliable piece of business. The blurriness is off-putting, and the overall poor presentation hints that it could be disguising art that doesn't quite fit the art of actual fighters.

Im also trying to figure out why theres grass(?) in front of Isaac.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Yeah, it wouldn't be at all surprising if someone outside the western Nintendo/Smash fanbase wasn't overly familiar with her. Plus post-ballot, pre-Shovel Knight, conversation surrounding indies just kinda... dried up.

I take it that both her (and Shovel Knight?) are pretty obscure in Japan, hey?

I honestly have no idea about Shantae in Japan, but Shovel Knight at least is decently popular, especially on Switch. It's an 8-bit tribute to Mega-Man, which always plays well here, and it also benefitted from a really lovingly done localization effort by 8-4 that added a bunch of Japan exclusive things like turning the gems into old-timey Japanese coins. A lot of English -> Japanese translations, even for big AAA games, are actually surprisingly half-assed and leave a bad impression, so something like Shovel Knight is always appreciated. It's not nearly as big as Undertale though, which was an underground phenomenon even before it was officially translated. Undertale is huuuuge here.

EDIT: Blurriness aside, I just think there are way too many unique newcomers. I doubt we'd get Isaac, Banjo, AND Chorus Kids all in one final Direct. And I'm probably missing some just because the blurriness made me give up after a minute. I just feel like at least one of those characters would have been announced earlier as they all require a bit of explanation. If it is correct I'll be over the moon but that means this Direct would be at least an hour long.