Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I was just thinking about what the top 20 might have looked like.

Bayonetta, Snake, Wolf seem like obvious picks.

Ice Climbers is another one I think is likely.

Pichu and Young Link probably did reasonably well but for some reason I think they may have been outside the top 20 (particularly the latter two)

Pokemon Trainer I'm unsure about but they were probably top 20 when you combined votes for them, Squirtle and Ivysaur.

After that King K Rool, Ridley, Isaac, Ashley, Bandana Dee, Daisy, Geno and perhaps Inklings are likely.

That brings us to 13 so we need another 7.

I get the vibe a Sonic character would have been up there so let's add Shadow. I know he was an assist trophy but Sonic fans are kinda intense. (like Ridley fans )

This may be wishful thinking but there was a buzz surrounding Banjo & Kazooie at the time due to Microsoft openness to having them in Smash so they might have slipped into the top 20.

I'm not sure about the last five. The question at this point is do we have top 20 characters who have already been disconfirmed. Did Krystal or Bomberman break into the top 20?

Simon Belmont may have been in the top 20 as well if vergeben is to be believed.

That leaves us with 4 and I have no idea who to pick. I don't think Waluigi had as much of a buzz around him back then, so being an assist was likely enough to push him outside the top 20.

Edit: Dixie was probably in the top 20. Though I think having such strong competition in K Rool among Donkey Kong fans might have damaged her.

I was not seeing much outcry for Squirtle or Ivysaur at all during Smash 4 or pre-Ultimate. I'd be shocked if they were in the top 20 when the transformation concept was poorly done at the time and they still kept the most popular of the bunch in Smash 4. Pichu and Young Link definitely weren't there either, but Icies, Snake, and Wolf definitely were.

The newcomers (including Shadow and Banjo) I all agree with. Simon's iffy but I wouldn't be surprised if he had that popularity so we'll add him there.

Disconfirmed characters or previous ATs are all super difficult to place. Skull Kid could've made it, Bomberman could've made it, Lyn could've made it, but I don't think Krystal did just because most people were voting for Wolf. They also could be lower down because fans were discouraged by their existing role and thought the ballot was for Smash 4, but I think a few of them still broke through.

I'd add at least Waluigi (huge casual fanbase), Lloyd or Heihachi (Mii costumes and the latter being planned), Rayman (Omni and the trophy got people excited for the possibility), and Isabelle (See Waluigi) to the list.

That's 17. Perhaps Dixie, another Mario character like Toad or Paper Mario, another third party with a passionate fanbase like Sora, or a few other ATs to round it out but I'm skeptical.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I was just thinking about what the top 20 might have looked like.

Bayonetta, Snake, Wolf seem like obvious picks.

Ice Climbers is another one I think is likely.

Pichu and Young Link probably did reasonably well but for some reason I think they may have been outside the top 20 (particularly the latter two)

Pokemon Trainer I'm unsure about but they were probably top 20 when you combined votes for them, Squirtle and Ivysaur.

After that King K Rool, Ridley, Isaac, Ashley, Bandana Dee, Daisy, Geno and perhaps Inklings are likely.

That brings us to 13 so we need another 7.

I get the vibe a Sonic character would have been up there so let's add Shadow. I know he was an assist trophy but Sonic fans are kinda intense. (like Ridley fans )

This may be wishful thinking but there was a buzz surrounding Banjo & Kazooie at the time due to Microsoft openness to having them in Smash so they might have slipped into the top 20.

I'm not sure about the last five. The question at this point is do we have top 20 characters who have already been disconfirmed. Did Krystal or Bomberman break into the top 20?

Simon Belmont may have been in the top 20 as well if vergeben is to be believed.

That leaves us with 4 and I have no idea who to pick. I don't think Waluigi had as much of a buzz around him back then, so being an assist was likely enough to push him outside the top 20.

Edit: Dixie was probably in the top 20. Though I think having such strong competition in K Rool among Donkey Kong fans might have damaged her.

So, 3 more left.

Dare I say perhaps Shovel Knight made his way into the top 20? I'm always seeing him on YouTube most wanted videos.

Now that I think about it, Rayman was probably popular due to his inclusion as a trophy, though his lack of popularity in Japan may have dragged him down.

Waluigi definitely did well on the ballot. I doubt being an Assist Trophy would deter his fanbase. You got the meme guys who will nominate him for kicks, and you got the hardcore Smash fans who probably figured the ballot would come into play for future games.

Isabelle seems like a likely contender, she’s very popular and has a wide reach.

Maybe Chrom and the Chorus Kids did well?

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Even if Isabelle is popular I don't really see her having that rabid fan dedication behind her that would have counteracted her being an assist trophy.

Chrom might have done well though I think he may have still been outside the top 20. Chorus Kids are a tough one, since all of their popularity would have come from leaks, I'm going to say no for top 20 though.

 

[StormC]

It's definitely hard to get a feel for how well deconfirmed characters did on the ballot, especially since some polls didn't even include them. My gut feeling is Ridley, the most popular deconfirmed character, probably barely missed the top 10 but got into the top 15-20. I fully believe his fairly high ballot placement encouraged Sakurai to reconsider him, but was not the sole factor or source of the "outcry."

-Snake
-Banjo-Kazooie
-King K. Rool
-Wolf
-Isaac
-Inkling
-Bayonetta

These were the heavy hitters with a pretty consistent presence on most sites. Then some other characters that were popular on certain sites but not necessarily across the board:

-Daisy
-Shovel Knight
-Ice Climbers
-Dixie Kong
-Geno
-Bandana Dee
-Captain Toad

You can probably find the top 10 here... maybe throw in a wildcard like Waluigi or something. Like I said before, I think Snake/K. Rool/Banjo is a plausible top 3 when all votes across the world are tallied in. After that? I'm not sure. But I also would say globally, K. Rool/Isaac/Inkling are top 3 for Nintendo newcomers.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I think Sakurai was already well aware of Ridleys intense popularity before the ballot.

He also probably considered that stage hazard or assist trophy status would have effected the votes somewhat.

So I don't expect the ballot itself had a huge impact on that decision. (though I'm sure a top 20 placement helped)

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

If the only thing Camelot is allowed to make is sports game, then bring on Golden Sun 4: Weyard's Lighthouse Volleyball Championship!

Camelot seems extremely comfortable with tennis so how 'bout some fab

Art by CrimsonVale for

 

[isaac3000]

Do we know if Chrom is still part of Robin's final smash?

Also, i want that tennis to happen! I have that pic saved on my Golden Sun pictures folder and whenever I see it I imagine a parallel universe where Golden Sun has more sequels, spin offs, merchandise, Amiibos etc. sigh I was born in the wrong universe...

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Do we know if Chrom is still part of Robin's final smash?

Robin's final smash hasn't been shown yet, and he wasn't in the E3 demo. I'm silently hoping that the Japanese tournament in a few days will have an updated build so we can get some sort of new info from it.

 

[Skyblade12]

Probably, just because of the divide between Mario fans who want Toad, Geno, and especially Waluigi versus Daisy. Not a guarantee though. Daisy's well-known with casuals.



Many people do use different IPs to vote for more than one character. There are probably a good number of DK fans who want both that did this.

I don't think more people used different IPs to vote for Dixie and K. Rool than used multiple IPs to ballot stuff their favorite.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

The ballot had 1.8 million votes worldwide over six months right?

If that's the case I can't imagine much double voting was going on.

If most people voted twice or more on different ips then that would mean the number of unique voters was around 900k or less. Which I guess is possible but I would have thought it would be a bit more.

On the other hand if people were frequently voting on different ips I'd kinda expect the number to be greater than 1.8 million.

 

[Hydewell]

It's true that they can't act independently on creating a new Golden Sun game, as they have to get the approval of Nintendo, who owns the IP. However, if Nintendo's concern is the project taking away from developing a new Mario Tennis/Golf game, it was you that pointed out that Camelot would need to hire a team to help develop an RPG since their staff isn't big enough. The obvious approach is that once they do that, they can then split their resources into one team that develops Mario while the other develops Golden Sun.

Nintendo wouldn't say no if they still get the sports game they wanted. Camelot may not have full control, but they aren't stuck without any options of moving forward.

Yeah, but the big problem of that it would cost a lot of money for Nintendo (and probably Camelot). Remember Camelot is a 3rd party studio and Nintendo don't own them (unlike Nd Cube or Monolith, for example) so it would increase the cost a lot. You should increase their team from 40 people to more than one hundred, at least. Also, you should consider Camelot have a small office, probably. So, in the scenario you describe, the best thing would be to taking advantage of some Nintendo studio, but currently a lot of them are busy, and the free ones are starting some projects (for example, Monolith apparently will work in two projects now, because they're hiring a lot of people and recently they opened another studio).

Also, MTA was developed by 40 people, yeah. But at the same time, it reutilized a lot of the assets from MTUS, and, even so the game felt rushed and incompleted.

You need to understand the Takahashi brothers are the heads of their company and they have 30-40 employees under his command, which that means they have to pay their salaries. We don't know their situation of the studio, but maybe their only offer (or the best one) are from Nintendo to do the sports games. Yeah, they could go and act as "indies", but that means they would get debts in order to pay the salaries and also they would have to distribute their products, commercialize, do some merchadising, etc. So I can understand why they aren't more ambitious. I'm sure they still want to do some RPG games, but if no one give them this opportunity, they will work in the Mario sport titles.

On the subreddit, we have a couple of people that are negative and pessimistic to the point of it being a bit uncomfortable for the others, honestly...
I wish they could hear what you say. Even though it most likely wouldn't work since they don't believe it (or even get angry...) when others say such things anyway.

I understand not wanting to be disappointed, but trying to crush the hope of others is something else...
I find that attitude pretty unpleasant and I don't refrain from telling them.
But enough with that, after all I'm talking about a tiny minority!
Okay so to launch another little topic: If Isaac ends up playable, against which character would you test it first? I'd probably use him against FE characters.

To be fair, the most plausible scenario would be Isaac appear as an AT. I can understand why some people act as a negative ones, just to avoid the "echo camber". I mean, if you only speak with guys who support him, you will be convinced he's the most plausible candidate. I don't know if they act as jerks or not, but while we are passionate, we're a very tiny part of the Smash community. The best thing we can do, apart from publicizing the Isaac fanbase, is united the people who played Golden Sun and want a new game (or a remake of the first entries). And now that Nintendo will launch Octopath Traveler, a classic RPG game who is very expected, is the best time to let us known and push for a new entry.

I saw it mentioned on the K Rool thread that someone had a conversation with another person who had information on the ballot. Apparently Daisy came in 20th after the removal of meme characters.

I mean, it's michaelol. He and memoryman (and I think both are the same person) are known to be... "special guys". I doubt we can rely on them in anything.

I was just thinking about what the top 20 might have looked like.

Personally, my top 20 worldwide ballot, if we don't count meme characters and we remove bots and multiple votes from other people (which I'm sure it affected the poll), would be this (in any specific order):
Veterans: Snake, Wolf, Roy, Ice Climbers (4).
Newcomers:
1st: Bandana Dee, Captain Toad/Toad, King K Rool, Ridley, Dixie, Isaac, Krystal. (7)
3rd: Bayonetta, Banjo&Kazooie, Rayman, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Sora, Geno, Simon, Bomberman. (9)

I really doubt about some of them (basically, Isaac, Geno, Dixie, Simon and Krystal) because they had some problems. Isaac, Geno and Simon lack of recognition in the teen/casual audience for example. Geno and Krystal had a really huge fanbase in Brawl times, but in DLC times their fanbases lost a lot of people, but well, Sakurai itself said Geno was popular in the ballot so that means he did it well, and the presence of Krystal as an AT, like Bomberman, seems to recognize her popularity. And Dixie and Krystal suffered from their direct competition, King K Rool and Wolf.

As Top 10, probably a lot of 3rd parties were the first one. People don't consider a lot of them were heavily pushed by their creators and youtubers, and that means they were highlighted by news in gaming portals.

When I was searching the old reddit poll, I find one guy recopilated some big polls at that time, so well, if anyone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8y0m2o/a_lot_of_big_polls_from_the_ssb4_dlc_discussion/

 

[LasermasterA]

The only way to actually gauge a character's popularity is to individually go to each thread and count their support lists.
...
Give me a few minutes and I'll count the supporters for K. Rool, Ashley, Bandana Dee and Geno.

--
EDIT: A top ten most active thread list, with list of Supporters, has been compiled. By me. You can find it on the Ultimate Discussion Thread here.

Woah, we have the second most supporters, that's great! Time for a mini celebration!

I usually don't buy games day as soon as they come out, waiting for reviews and hopefully some sort of sale/discount, but if Isaac makes it into Smash Ultimate, I'll buy it DAY ONE (and the switch if I don't have one by then) and unlock him ASAP!!!! Nothing will stop me from maining our Golden Boy the day he comes out!

 

[_Sheik]

Of course characters who got into the top 20 could have been sent to the AT pile (Krystal, Bomberman...). Or did you expect 20 newcomers in a game that brought back all the veterans?

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Of course characters who got into the top 20 could have been sent to the AT pile (Krystal, Bomberman...). Or did you expect 20 newcomers in a game that brought back all the veterans?

To be fair some of that top 20 were likely veterans. (It's probably part of why Sakurai brought them all back in the first place) Plus one of them was likely Bayonetta. That's at least 5 out of the 20 accounted for already.

Then take out the possibility of Ridley, Inkling and Daisy and that could be another 3 taken out of the remaining 15.

So we're left with 12 more characters. Which reduces the playing field quite a bit going forward.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Yeah, but the big problem of that it would cost a lot of money for Nintendo (and probably Camelot). Remember Camelot is a 3rd party studio and Nintendo don't own them (unlike Nd Cube or Monolith, for example) so it would increase the cost a lot. You should increase their team from 40 people to more than one hundred, at least. Also, you should consider Camelot have a small office, probably. So, in the scenario you describe, the best thing would be to taking advantage of some Nintendo studio, but currently a lot of them are busy, and the free ones are starting some projects (for example, Monolith apparently will work in two projects now, because they're hiring a lot of people and recently they opened another studio).

Also, MTA was developed by 40 people, yeah. But at the same time, it reutilized a lot of the assets from MTUS, and, even so the game felt rushed and incompleted.

You need to understand the Takahashi brothers are the heads of their company and they have 30-40 employees under his command, which that means they have to pay their salaries. We don't know their situation of the studio, but maybe their only offer (or the best one) are from Nintendo to do the sports games. Yeah, they could go and act as "indies", but that means they would get debts in order to pay the salaries and also they would have to distribute their products, commercialize, do some merchadising, etc. So I can understand why they aren't more ambitious. I'm sure they still want to do some RPG games, but if no one give them this opportunity, they will work in the Mario sport titles.

The bolded is important. The team is small, certainly, but we don't know what their situation is, whether it be good or bad. Camelot isn't a company you hear from often, so it's all assumption until proven otherwise. Even so, it's not unbelievable to imagine Nintendo could help fund and/or supervise the project.

My theory is that the problem isn't that they can't afford to do it, but they fear that a new Golden Sun will end up like Dark Dawn in fan reception and it'll all go to waste. So really, they need to be convinced that it's worth pursuing again, and Smash is the most obvious tool to do that.

Minor correction: Camelot is actually a second party developer, not a third party. So they aren't owned by Nintendo but are specifically contracted to publish only for Nintendo.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

To be fair some of that top 20 were likely veterans. (It's probably part of why Sakurai brought them all back in the first place) Plus one of them was likely Bayonetta. That's at least 5 out of the 20 accounted for already.

Then take out the possibility of Ridley, Inkling and Daisy and that could be another 3 taken out of the remaining 15.

So we're left with 12 more characters. Which reduces the playing field quite a bit going forward.

If Sakurai has decided to negotiate with the various companies related to the third-parties (mainly the ones openly wanting their mascots in) early on or after the base game is complete, that takes out 6, 7 or 8 characters. That's something that could happen, too.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

To be fair some of that top 20 were likely veterans. (It's probably part of why Sakurai brought them all back in the first place) Plus one of them was likely Bayonetta. That's at least 5 out of the 20 accounted for already.

Then take out the possibility of Ridley, Inkling and Daisy and that could be another 3 taken out of the remaining 15.

So we're left with 12 more characters. Which reduces the playing field quite a bit going forward.

As much as I’d love 12 new characters, I feel it’s a bit of a disservice to say that we have that many additional characters with the number of returning veterans. Specifically veterans not featured in Smash 4. My theory has always been 15 original additions (Echoes don’t count). That would give us Wolf, Snake, Ice Climbers, Young Link, Pichu, Squirtle, and Ivysaur for 7 already added to the game. Plus two newly announced fighters to bring us to 9. That would leave us with 6 if the 15 theory is correct.

To be fair, that does give some room for characters overall, just not so much as 12.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That would give us Wolf, Snake, Ice Climbers, Young Link, Pichu, Squirtle, and Ivysaur for 7 already added to the game.

I think it's pretty disignenious to count Young Link and Pichu as newcomers from a development point of view. I mean the far more unique Wolf only took around 70% of the effort for an entirely new character and Young Link and Pichu are far more clone-like than Wolf.

 

[YwhaletailY]

Hey guys,

New to smashboards but I'd like to offer my support for Isaac. Golden Sun was undoubtedly my favorite RPG series growing up. Having Isaac in smash has always been a dream, as I can't imagine a newcomer with better moveset potential. As the years go by, it is has become evident that the entire fate of the series likely rests on his inclusion in smash, as it is all but dead as of now.

It's great to see he still has a sizeable following, and I have no doubt his inclusion would peak the interest of casuals that could become the tipping point for a GS4. Between the elemental and telekinetic powers, the djinn, and the summons (not to mention the classic sword user), Isaac has so many different options that would appeal to people not acquainted with the series. Just give us that chance Sakurai!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Updated support list.

Spoiler

1. _Sheik
2. 1/128
3. 9Blades
4. ☆Jisatsu☆
5. *Verrix*
6. Accursed
7. Adeptmune
8. Agk0001
9. AgatioGanon
10. Aguki90
11. airConditioner
12. aldelaro5
13. alguidrag
14. Altais
15. Amberloo
16. AncientArk
17. andimidna
18. Androobie
19. Apollyon
20. Aqua Rock X
21. AquaDork1
22. AquaSol
23. Arcadenik
24. Arteen
25. Asian_Charizard
26. Astraltar
27. Aureola
28. Aurora Jenny
29. AustarusIV
30. AwesomeCauliflower68
31. Awesomedude444
32. Backgammon
33. Balgorxz
34. BandannaWaddleDee
35. Bane84
36. bassem6
37. Bassoonist
38. Billybae10k
39. Bingoshi
40. Bkupa666
41. Blackwolf666
42. Blaziken
43. BluePikmin11
44. BoltDragon
45. BoN~
46. Bowser-Daimao
47. BravadoMan_13
48. BridgesWithTurtles
49. Browny
50. Buddy002
51. Bunny8093
52. BUnit
53. Burruni
54. Calane
55. CactusBlah
56. candyissweet
57. Capita
58. Cap'nChreest
59. Captain Toad
60. CardStealer1
61. Chapter Serf
62. CheckmateChuck
63. CheeseBroJoe
64. Cheezey Bites
65. Chromfirmed
66. ChronoPenguin
67. ClinkStryphart
68. CliffJumper
69. cocy965
70. Cos.
71. Coaltergeist
72. Crap-Zapper
73. CrossDispatcher
74. cybersai
75. Dalek_Kolt
76. Dendros
77. Desert Croc
78. Destroyer713
79. Dezeray112
80. Dhragen
81. Diddy Kong
82. Dimensionsword64
83. DivinexRose
84. DJ3DS
85. DJBor
86. D-Man9293
87. DogManStar
88. DoodleDuck97
89. Doncalot
90. DraginHikari
91. Drakonis
92. Dromader
93. DukeNapoleon
94. DustyPumpkin
95. e105beta
96. Eagle
97. EclipseSmash
98. EddyBearr
99. ED Cantu
100. Edlocke
101. egaddmario
102. ElPanandero
103. El Syd
104. EndlessChrom
105. EndlessRain
106. EnhaloTricks
107. ETFruitNinja
108. ethanrodgers223
109. Ezequileste
110. Falgor
111. Falkoopa
112. False Sense
113. FamiconDisk
114. Felix_the_Slayer
115. fenyx4
116. ferioku
117. Fire Rider
118. Fire_Voyager
119. FirstBlade
120. Flareon
121. Flintike
122. fogbadge.
123. foolssigma
124. FreddyOnDrugs
125. Friesnchip
126. GalacticPetey
127. Geno Boost
128. Ghirahilda
129. GladiusVortex
130. GM_3826
131. Golden Icarus
132. GoodGrief741
133. Gotann
134. GraveEclipse567
135. heylodom
136. hwrdjacob
137. iam8bit
138. Icana
139. iDazedX_x
140. Inawordyes
141. IntelliHeath1
142. Invisible Shiny Bulbasaur
143. isaac3000
144. Isaac: Venus Adept
145. IvanQuote
146. JaidynReiman
147. Jak_spoon
148. Jamurai
149. JDogindy
150. JohnnySparkxs
151. Just a random scrub
152. jweb22
153. KCCHIEFS27
154. KeniththeGatherer
155. KeybladeSmasher
156. Kikaru
157. Kind Dedede
158. KingCloud
159. KingShadow
160. KiraYoshikage
161. KirbyDragon
162. Kirbyfan391
163. Kisae
164. KMDP
165. Kokirikory
166. Koori
167. Kremling Man
168. Kumatora
169. Kycse
170. Lady Palutena
171. Lampy
172. LaniusShrike
173. lanky_gunner
174. LasermasterA
175. Leafeon523
176. LeeYawshee
177. legendofrob1
178. LemmyKoopa
179. lightdasher
180. LightheartedBum
181. Lightosia
182. Linq
183. littl-myth
184. Liverpool19
185. Lone (Thirteenth)
186. Lonodel
187. Lord-Zero
188. Lucanic
189. Lucimar
190. Ludjinnado
191. lunarum
192. Lukingordex
193. Lurxy
194. M23-X0
195. MacSmitty
196. MagiusNecros
197. MAGMIS
198. MainJPW
199. Malcolm Belmont
200. MaskO'Gears
201. Master Rapier
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203. Mav485
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205. Mendelsin
206. MetalMario128
207. Metocles
208. Minato Arisato
209. Mikegamer0608
210. Mishudo
211. Monkokaio
212. MonopolyRubix
213. MorbidAltruism
214. Moydow
215. MrMacBeth
216. MrToxicVoltage
217. Mythzotick
218. mynameisv
219. MysticKnives
220. N3ON
221. Nauzgo
222. Neo Zero
223. NessAtc.
224. Niala
225. Nimbostratus
226. Ninjakid41592
227. Nintendokusou
228. NitrusVirus
229. NonSpecificGuy
230. NoOtherPersona
231. NoR4U
232. Octillus
233. Oddyesy
234. Oniric Spriter
235. Oracle_Summon
236. Organization XIII
237. otarolgam
238. Oz37
239. Pacack
240. Papagenos
241. ParanoidDrone
242. Pcubed007
243. Pennate
244. Phaazoid
245. Pizza Robo
246. Plain Yogurt
247. Playcube
248. PlayfulMushroom
249. POKEMANSPIKA
250. Powerman293
251. PSIguy89
252. PrinceGal3n
253. PWN3
254. R.O.B.
255. Radical Beam
256. Radori
257. Raetah
258. Raziek
259. Red Ryu
260. RegiGygas117
261. Retro gamer
262. RhymeswithEmpty
263. Roger Smith
264. RosaPeach
265. Royvolution Ream
266. Ryan
267. Ryuutakeshi
268. Sabrewulf238
269. Sagittarius
270. sandfall
271. SanicJan
272. Scatmansworld25
273. Scoliosis Jones
274. Seb9k+
275. Secret Sexytime
276. Seleir
277. Seoxys
278. sheik93
279. Shin F.
280. Shinhed-echi
281. Shog
282. Sidboylol
283. SirCamp
284. skaaaa
285. Skeleton o' Fun
286. Skyblade12
287. Skyfox2000
288. sman3975
289. Smash_Handle69
290. SmashBro99
291. smashkirby
292. SmashShadow
293. smashtriforce77
294. smileMasky
295. SmilingMad
296. SMX
297. Solfiner
298. someonetookjacob
299. SonicLink125
300. SonicSmasher
301. SorrowOfAcheron
302. SoulofKhaos
303. Spatman
304. Spazzy_D
305. Speedwagon
306. Spootondorf
307. Sqid
308. SSBFan
309. Staarih
310. StaffofSmashing
311. Strider_Bond00J
312. StrikeBlade
313. SuperBrawler
314. Superfiremario
315. Supersmash77
316. Superyoshiom
317. Swampasaur
318. Sykin
319. Takasmash
320. TCT~Phantom
321. TeenGirlSquad
322. TehEpicRyuga
323. ThatShadowLink
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333. thethirdkoopa
334. ThirdDay
335. ThoughtfulWanderer
336. ThunderOverload
337. TimeSmash
338. Tiyomako
339. ToothiestAura
340. True Blue Warrior
341. Turmalinium
342. UltimateWario
343. Ultinarok
344. Vann Accessible
345. Vegito2727
346. Venus of the Desert Bloom
347. Vintage Creep
348. Violenceman
349. walph
350. Warheart_666
351. Wigglytuff ★
352. Wintropy
353. WhiteEaglePL
354. Xelion
355. Xenigma
356. XeVioN
357. Xiivi
358. xLemmy_KoopaX
359. XTremeGamer1234
360. XxLtxX
361. YellowLord
362. YoshiandToad
363. Young Horsetail
364. Your Hero
365. YwhaletailY
366. zagman505
367. zaiman12345
368. Zandro
369. ZanZero
370. ZarroTsu
371. ZeldaMaster
372. ZestyÑ
373. Zulyar
374. Zuppo

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I think it's pretty disignenious to count Young Link and Pichu as newcomers from a development point of view. I mean the far more unique Wolf only took around 70% of the effort for an entirely new character and Young Link and Pichu are far more clone-like than Wolf.

Also, while we can assume that Snake, Wolf, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all had to be recreated from the ground up as their Brawl data would be very old at that point, we don't know how much of Icies' data was actually ported over from their failed conversion to Smash 4. Sakurai already confirmed they were testing them on both versions. They may have been for all intents and purposes, finished like any other character in Smash 4, and the effort to bring them over to Ultimate could've been minimal.

Really, I don't know how much dev time it took to make all those enhancements to the veterans and gameplay that they showed off at E3, nor do I know what new or upgraded modes they might have hiding away. But if building brand new characters from the ground up takes the most work, then we may only lose 5 or even just 4 unique newcomers by bringing every cut veteran back.

 

[StormC]

The ballot had 1.8 million votes worldwide over six months right?

If that's the case I can't imagine much double voting was going on.

If most people voted twice or more on different ips then that would mean the number of unique voters was around 900k or less. Which I guess is possible but I would have thought it would be a bit more.

On the other hand if people were frequently voting on different ips I'd kinda expect the number to be greater than 1.8 million.

1.8M is honestly a pretty low sample size considering Smash 3DS sold around 8 million. I would wager due to all the double voting going on, the actual number of people voting is closer to a million, which sorta lines up with my thought that the ballot was not overtaken by a swarm of casual voters (although there were certainly many of them, I'm sure).

 

[Organization XIII]

If Bayonetta actually had a good spot on the ballot I'm sure there weren't a large portion of casuals. She's really niche. Or she was but now that's she's in Smash I imagine she's more recognizable.

 

[isaac3000]

Before the Ballot, I didn't even know Bayonetta existed...

 

[Kisae]

On the subreddit, we have a couple of people that are negative and pessimistic to the point of it being a bit uncomfortable for the others, honestly...
I wish they could hear what you say. Even though it most likely wouldn't work since they don't believe it (or even get angry...) when others say such things anyway.

I understand not wanting to be disappointed, but trying to crush the hope of others is something else...
I find that attitude pretty unpleasant and I don't refrain from telling them.
But enough with that, after all I'm talking about a tiny minority!

Okay so to launch another little topic: If Isaac ends up playable, against which character would you test it first? I'd probably use him against FE characters.

Haha i knew you would go tu use him againt an FE character first xD Personally i will go against Link or Maybe Cloud to make a RPG battle =D

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I've always like the idea of an Isaac v Shulk v Marth v Ness fight. Since they'd be like the figure heads of the non Pokemon Nintendo RPGs.

 

[Hydewell]

The bolded is important. The team is small, certainly, but we don't know what their situation is, whether it be good or bad. Camelot isn't a company you hear from often, so it's all assumption until proven otherwise. Even so, it's not unbelievable to imagine Nintendo could help fund and/or supervise the project.

My theory is that the problem isn't that they can't afford to do it, but they fear that a new Golden Sun will end up like Dark Dawn in fan reception and it'll all go to waste. So really, they need to be convinced that it's worth pursuing again, and Smash is the most obvious tool to do that.

Minor correction: Camelot is actually a second party developer, not a third party. So they aren't owned by Nintendo but are specifically contracted to publish only for Nintendo.

Second party is just a fan concept. Basically, if Nintendo don't own them, signed an exclusive contract (like Next Level Games) or have a majority of their shares, the company can choose to work with them or not.
Even Game Freak, HAL or Intelligent Systems (though the last ones are practically Nintendo considering a lot of facts) are similar to Camelot. Game Freak worked with Sega to do that elephant game that didn't launch in a Nintendo system, for example.IIRC, HAL has done some mobile apps. The only they can't do is to work in the IPs Nintendo have the rights (or part of them).

And yeah, I agree with you with your theory. If DD had been a success (or well received), I'm sure we would have got GS4. For example, we know Nintendo wanted to do a GS3, they even confessed that in an interview. But with the criticism and the cost, I can understand how they just shut up and accept the projects, even if they work as a "support company" (like they did in MSS, doing only the tennis and the golf games).

 

[Falgor]

To be fair, I wouldn't call DD a "failure". It could easily have been more successful though, I'll give you that, but since Nintendo showed no support to promote the game, well...
I mean come on, some Golden Sun fans were not even aware of DD's existence four years after its release. The relatively inferior quality of the game compared to the GBA ones doesn't explain everything.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

1.8M is honestly a pretty low sample size considering Smash 3DS sold around 8 million. I would wager due to all the double voting going on, the actual number of people voting is closer to a million, which sorta lines up with my thought that the ballot was not overtaken by a swarm of casual voters (although there were certainly many of them, I'm sure).

Well don't forget alot of casual Smash fans weren't even aware the ballot exists or even know that there was DLC. The April 2015 Nintendo direct that the Fighter Ballot was announced on only has 1,128,780 views in America, 40k views in Europe and (I was unable to find the one for Japan,)as of today which should be at least somewhat close to the 1.8 million votes that Sakurai said it has.

 

[Falgor]

Well don't forget alot of casual Smash fans weren't even aware the ballot exists or even know that there was DLC. The April 2015 Nintendo direct that the Fighter Ballot was announced on only has 1,128,780 views in America, 40k views in Europe and (I was unable to find the one for Japan,)as of today which should be at least somewhat close to the 1.8 million votes that Sakurai said it has.

I mean, seeing the Direct isn't the only way people would have been made aware of the Ballot (I'm thinking of video game websites sharing the news, mainly), but honestly it does line up pretty well with the number of people we can estimate in the hardcore Smash Bros community.

And that is important: I'm sure a smallish part of the votes came from "casuals", but ultimately they're much less aware of which characters have the best chances of working in Smash. Which is why plenty of casuals asked for Goku, or at least said that's what they did. Now was it only a joke? We can't know for sure but seeing how the thing went I'd say the majority of the votes in the Ballot came from truly hardcore, well informed Smash Bros enthusiasts, and another part could be made of pretty absurd requests so the results of the Ballot must be pretty close to the ones of the polls we could see here or on Reddit.

I don't think my personal bias is talking when I say that, because if it doesn't imply Isaac had some of the most outstanding results in the Ballot either, I still took several logical parameters into account.

 

[Skyblade12]

It appears that they took down the Japanese version of the Direct. The Japanese archive doesn't extend past the Culdcept Revolt Direct on May 11th, 2016. And only a couple of the individual videos remain up on their YouTube channel (and the Direct playlist in their description no longer exists).

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I mean, seeing the Direct isn't the only way people would have been made aware of the Ballot (I'm thinking of video game websites sharing the news, mainly), but honestly it does line up pretty well with the number of people we can estimate in the hardcore Smash Bros community.

Twitter, word-of-mouth, and other YouTube videos covering the ballot definitely made a few more people aware.

And that is important: I'm sure a smallish part of the votes came from "casuals", but ultimately they're much less aware of which characters have the best chances of working in Smash. Which is why plenty of casuals asked for Goku, or at least said that's what they did. Now was it only a joke? We can't know for sure but seeing how the thing went I'd say the majority of the votes in the Ballot came from truly hardcore, well informed Smash Bros enthusiasts, and another part could be made of pretty absurd requests so the results of the Ballot must be pretty close to the ones of the polls we could see here or on Reddit. I don't think my personal bias is talking when I say that, because if it doesn't imply Isaac had some of the most outstanding results in the Ballot either, I still took several logical parameters into account.

The less casual voters there were, the more likely Isaac is to be closer to the top.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

Here's a thought what if they make Isaac dlc for the game like he was gonna be in but they saved him for later

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

Here's a thought what if they make Isaac dlc for the game like he was gonna be in but they saved him for later

I've thought about this many times, and it's actually pretty plausible. He's more likely in the base game, but he could've easily been low priority and put on hold like Mewtwo.

 

[Organization XIII]

Here's a thought what if they make Isaac dlc for the game like he was gonna be in but they saved him for later

I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that Sakurai's mindset for DLC was vets and gaming icons. Sadly Isaac is neither so he likely was never considered for DLC. I mean the fact we got literally 0 Nintendo newcomers outside of executive meddling is pretty revealing in that regard. Now I do think he might have been considered for the base game and just didn't make it to playable due to lower priority.

 

[ThoughtfulWanderer]

I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that Sakurai's mindset for DLC was vets and gaming icons. Sadly Isaac is neither so he likely was never considered for DLC. I mean the fact we got literally 0 Nintendo newcomers outside of executive meddling is pretty revealing in that regard. Now I do think he might have been considered for the base game and just didn't make it to playable due to lower priority.

I think they were speculating about him being DLC for Ultimate, not Smash 4.

 

[Organization XIII]

Oh misread the post. My bad.

 

[NoOtherPersona]

I think they were speculating about him being DLC for Ultimate, not Smash 4.

You are correct I'm curious if he even made it to the roster since with all the rumors that something might happen July 16 makes me think that rumor with king and pony tail might be true and if it is I don't know about the golden boy as hopeful as I am

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I don't really expect Isaac to be the next reveal so whatever happens I don't think it'll change much.

 

[Falgor]

You are correct I'm curious if he even made it to the roster since with all the rumors that something might happen July 16 makes me think that rumor with king and pony tail might be true and if it is I don't know about the golden boy as hopeful as I am

I've seen people (on /r/SmashBros) saying the leaker finally announced this was fake. Also the date for this possible direct was apparently changed to July 22 instead.

Edit: The OP made a mistake and both dates are for different streams, so they're both valid.

Another leak talking about K. Rool and Dixie "replaced" it and contains info on the FunkoPop deal with Nintendo. But again, some people were saying that this has been known for a few days sooo...

Edit: Here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...do_direct_for_july_22nd_leaked_with_evidence/