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Ehhh while Golden Sun is a JRPG like most of those I wouldn't say it shares a lot of similarities with them style wise. Well except for LoZ because I mean LoZ is in similar high fantasy type style. The rest though would be stretch. I mean even FE would seem close but it's more grounded.
I was referring to gameplay with Earthbound, Pokemon, and FF7. Obviously earlier FFs would be similar in both gameplay and aesthetic. Zelda and FE have the high fantasy aesthetic covered, ESPECIALLY if you're making an argument that Isaac is going to be representing the 'retro' style of JRPGs, which seems like a really boring direction to take Isaac. I'd rather they grabbed a Dragon Quest character if they were gonna try to be retro with JRPGs.
Isaac is much better suited to showing off what's unique about his game - the awesome Djinni system and a main character with Earth-themed elemental powers (a true rarity in video games, it's almost always Fire/Air/Thunder/Ice...)
I was referring to gameplay with Earthbound, Pokemon, and FF7. Obviously earlier FFs would be similar in both gameplay and aesthetic. Zelda and FE have the high fantasy aesthetic covered, ESPECIALLY if you're making an argument that Isaac is going to be representing the 'retro' style of JRPGs, which seems like a really boring direction to take Isaac. I'd rather they grabbed a Dragon Quest character if they were gonna try to be retro with JRPGs.
Isaac is much better suited to showing off what's unique about his game - the awesome Djinni system and a main character with Earth-themed elemental powers (a true rarity in video games, it's almost always Fire/Air/Thunder/Ice...)
I mean I was just talking about Golden Sun's style nothing else I agreed with your points about him being a retro. But yeah I wouldn't group all RPGs together like that. Also, I wouldn't call FE high fantasy at least not the earlier games. It was far more realistic fantasy. I mean there's always been dragons and stuff but it's mostly just medieval wars. Then came Ike's games and from there I think they become much more fantastical.
Well sure, I guess if words have no meaning, then that works.
Though, I don't think Isaac really fits. It's not as if the style of JRPG that Golden Sun represents ever really went away... (it's even well-represented in Smash already thanks to Ness, Cloud, the FE characters, and arguably Link and the Pokemon.)
I definitely want Isaac in Smash, but I just don't see him getting 'retro' cred in this case?
Especially not when we look at what our former retro characters are like... And especially compared to characters like Geno or K.Rool or even Ridley, who are older or just as notable for being retro. Hell, someone like Celica hails from the NES -and- has a modern remake, which would seemingly put her in a better position than Isaac for something like this.
This retro thing just seems like the wrong argument for convincing anyone that Isaac belongs in Smash.
Words tend to have several meanings and can be perceived differently by different people.
I disagree with what you say about the other characters representing correctly the JRPG genre: Link, FE characters and Pokémon represent different genres of RPG, respectively A-RPG, Tactical RPG and I'd argue that monster catching is also a quite different genre (at least Pokémon feels like a thing of its own more than a traditional JRPG).
Earthbound, okay, but like we said earlier it's obscure because it never was released worldwide until the Wii U (and its atmosphere is quite different from your typical RPG, but that might be another debate).
Finally, Cloud's not a Nintendo character and that matters, at least to me.
Then, it's not like being retro is Isaac's only or just main selling point. First and foremost would be his incredible moveset and gameplay possibilities, then the fact that Golden Sun just deserves a spot on the roster, plus he's a fan-favorite, plus... Heck the list of his qualities besides "can be considered retro" is just way too long.
That's what I said. Isaac's personality is the same as Felix's in the first game.
What I'm worried about is how they'll try to give people an idea of what Isaac is all about. No matter how many times I see them, neither Shulk's reveal trailer nor his in-game appearance in Smash teach me a whole lot about him...
Really? I always perceived Isaac being quite different from Felix honestly (Felix being much colder). Could the different translations be that different?
Words tend to have several meanings and can be perceived differently by different people.
I disagree with what you say about the other characters representing correctly the JRPG genre: Link, FE characters and Pokémon represent different genres of RPG, respectively A-RPG, Tactical RPG and I'd argue that monster catching is also a quite different genre (at least Pokémon feels like a thing of its own more than a traditional JRPG).
Earthbound, okay, but like we said earlier it's obscure because it never was released worldwide until the Wii U (and its atmosphere is quite different from your typical RPG, but that might be another debate).
Finally, Cloud's not a Nintendo character and that matters, at least to me.
Then, it's not like being retro is Isaac's only or just main selling point. First and foremost would be his incredible moveset and gameplay possibilities, then the fact that Golden Sun just deserves a spot on the roster, plus he's a fan-favorite, plus... Heck the list of his qualities besides "can be considered retro" is just way too long.
Really? I always perceived Isaac being quite different from Felix honestly (Felix being much colder). Could the different translations be that different?
To be honest, I'm not even sure w're getting a "retro rep" (at least not one from the NES-eraand before). The only character who explicitly got in for the sake of filling a quota for a NES-era character was the Ice Climbers in Melee. With Pit, he got in due to fan-demand and the Duck Hunt Dog got in both to be an surprise character but also due to how well his game sold. Little Mac, Mr. Game and Watch and R.O.B. obviously had more going for them than merely being from the 80's.
I'm not even sure we're even getting a "retro rep" at all. The biggest argument for it is patterns, but given that Ultimate is obviously a significantly different beast from all the other Smash games (since this is the first sequel where bringing back every single past fighter was a priority) roster-wise, I;m not sure how much that matters. This game also broke some other established patterns since no third-party characters nor any Ice Climber/ZSS/WFT-style curveball characters were shown at E3 unlike the reveal trailer for previous games (Brawl and Smash 4 for third-parties specifically), so this is also something to consider.
To be honest, I'm not even sure w're getting a "retro rep" (at least not one from the NES-eraand before). The only character who explicitly got in for the sake of filling a quota for a NES-era character was the Ice Climbers in Melee. With Pit, he got in due to fan-demand and the Duck Hunt Dog got in both to be an surprise character but also due to how well his game sold. Little Mac, Mr. Game and Watch and R.O.B. obviously had more going for them than merely being from the 80's.
I'm not even sure we're even getting a "retro rep" at all. The biggest argument for it is patterns, but given that Ultimate is obviously a significantly different beast from all the other Smash games (since this is the first sequel where bringing back every single past fighter was a priority) roster-wise, I;m not sure how much that matters. This game also broke some other established patterns since no third-party characters nor any Ice Climber/ZSS/WFT-style curveball characters were shown at E3 unlike the reveal trailer for previous games (Brawl and Smash 4 for third-parties specifically), so this is also something to consider.
That's the thing. "Retro rep" is a fan concept anyway. Sakurai doesn't refer to any of them that way. It's just what fans call any character who hasn't had a game since the NES. But there's no evidence that Sakurai is looking to fill that as a quota or anything.
I know a lot of people don’t agree with me that Isaac should be the retro rep (in line with the ice climbers, pit, and little Mac) but if he isn’t who would it be. Just an FYI Pit and Little Mac were pretty heavily requested which helped them get chosen. But now we’re at this point where retros that did have support (Takamaru, Sukapon, ect) have been disconfirmed and the others have lost their supporters. Isaac is the only retro character from a unique series that still has support.
Another thing I really like about Isaac is that even people who don’t have him on their list aren’t mad at the idea of his inclusion because the general idea is that “he’d have a unique play style” unlike FE characters, Toad, Dee, and Paper Mario who people either love them or hate them.
Also on that note I’ve been getting into some fights with some Ashley supporters who have said she has such an “amazing moveset potential”. In my mind there is a tier for that. You either have infinite potential, amazing potential, good potential, or you require creativity. That’s not even factoring in weither or not those moves would translate to a unique play style. Anyways I would say that Ashley requires creativity while Isaac has infinite potential. I also think his move set could offer something unique which I think is going to be very vital in this Smash. As there won’t be a lot of new characters and they are what really change how the game is played in each installment. This is one of the reasons I think Bandana Dee is doomed to fail. Yea he has amazing moveset potential but I don’t think his moveset offers anything new to Smash play style wise.
If Isaac gets in I wonder if any of this will be a factor.
Personally, I'd want it to be Lip lol. But I don't see that happening realistically lol. I feel I have better chances getting Power Stone 3 than I do with Lip coming to Smash. Though I'm not sure if what some of us might view as "retro" is the same as Sakurai. Cause while if we're going by years, yeah, Isaac could be considered it, but none of the "retro" picks have been chosen from later than the NES era if I'm not mistaken. Doesn't mean that's how it is of course, but Sakurai hasn't seemed to go further than there.
Well, this Friday Octopath Traveller will be launched. Considering that it's a classical RPG and Nintendo distribute it in the West, so they will know how it sells... Do you think if the game sells well, it could open the possibility of jumping the inevitable Mario Golf game and investing in Camelot again (or another studio) in order to do a new turn based RPG game? Or they could leave this genre to the 3rd parties exclusively?
At least we know Camelot still wants to do an RPG game (despite being Shinen Force IV, which is known to be more like Fire Emblem), but well, maybe the Takahashi declaration in October of the last year arrived to Nintendo and remembered them Camelot was a RPG team.
But, also, I have my doubts Nintendo would rely on them after MTA. Despite improving the mechanics and gameplay of their new game, they really screw up with all the other modes. The reviewers (and people in general) calified the story mode as underwhelming and they complained about the lack of modes, unlockables, minigames and customization. Some of them can be fixed with a patch, but others it would require a lot of work. Tbh, the last games from Camelot gave a feeling they launched an incomplete product, missing important things or, in case of Dark Dawn, not telling the story they wanted to do. Even so, MTA did great in term of sales (it was number 1 in various countries and still is in Japan) and I saw it surpassed some of the previous titles at launch.
Btw, I checked the recruit page in Camelot web and it seems they're only interested in contracting programmers (though they indicated they could be interested in hiring graphic artists and game planners). At this time, they should know their next project, because I doubt a team of 40 people would exclusively work to add content and balance a small game like it was MTA. Also, the japanese websites don't like to upload frequently their pages, so maybe there aren't interested to hire someone at the time.
That's the thing. "Retro rep" is a fan concept anyway. Sakurai doesn't refer to any of them that way. It's just what fans call any character who hasn't had a game since the NES. But there's no evidence that Sakurai is looking to fill that as a quota or anything.
The inclusion of the term 'retro rep' mostly came from the inclusion of the Ice Climbers in Melee. Sakurai wanted to include one character from the NES era going through choices such as Excite Bike, Mach Rider, Balloon Fighter and Ayumi Taichibana and settled with Popo & Nana. Doesn't Duck Hunt count as a NES rep too, I mean his trailer even had the characters with their original 8-bit sprites. I understand that it's not an essential category of fighter to be included but it does exist
The inclusion of the term 'retro rep' mostly came from the inclusion of the Ice Climbers in Melee. Sakurai wanted to include one character from the NES era going through choices such as Excite Bike, Mach Rider, Balloon Fighter and Ayumi Taichibana and settled with Popo & Nana. Doesn't Duck Hunt count as a NES rep too, I mean his trailer even had the characters with their original 8-bit sprites. I understand that it's not an essential category of fighter to be included but it does exist
Well, Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Little Mac and Duck Hunt could be considered "Retro Reps", but they could also be considered "Hardware Reps" (Punch-Out!! was an arcade game, Duck Hunt represents the light gun accesory).
The inclusion of the term 'retro rep' mostly came from the inclusion of the Ice Climbers in Melee. Sakurai wanted to include one character from the NES era going through choices such as Excite Bike, Mach Rider, Balloon Fighter and Ayumi Taichibana and settled with Popo & Nana. Doesn't Duck Hunt count as a NES rep too, I mean his trailer even had the characters with their original 8-bit sprites. I understand that it's not an essential category of fighter to be included but it does exist
Once Takamaru is added, there aren't really too many viable NES characters left that wouldn't feel forced for the sake of adding a "retro" character. Some may not have full movesets (Excitebiker, Mach Rider unless as an echo), some are too obscure (Ayumi), etc.
Sakurai should rebrand it as a "Classic Fighter". Those could really just mean gems/hits of the late 80s/90s/early 00s that weren't ever relevant enough for a Smash game but still have their own merits. Even if they're not popular now or even if their series only died off recently. they still made enough noise back in their prime to be considered "Classics" and be recognized by a crowd.
Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi-Robo, and Sin & Punishment could all apply to this category. Even if only one or two got in every game, it would still excuse the irrelevancy issue that everyone loves to point out and not make each Smash game feel like it's all about the "newest and most recent brands".
I had forgotten about Geno. He could fit this new definition of Retro spot I have developed. I’ve had my own personal assumptions as to why I thought he wouldn’t make it in so I constantly looked past him.
I don’t think the idea of the retro rep will end. I believe sakurai likes this character slot because it gives him a wider selection of diverse characters that he can use to make sure the machanics of Smash changes. Plus since they’re older and have less references to pull from he can be more creative in his interpretation of the character without offending anyone like he would have to with modern characters.
Once Takamaru is added, there aren't really too many viable NES characters left that wouldn't feel forced for the sake of adding a "retro" character. Some may not have full movesets (Excitebiker, Mach Rider unless as an echo), some are too obscure (Ayumi), etc.
Sakurai should rebrand it as a "Classic Fighter". Those could really just mean gems/hits of the late 80s/90s/early 00s that weren't ever relevant enough for a Smash game but still have their own merits. Even if they're not popular now or even if their series only died off recently. they still made enough noise back in their prime to be considered "Classics" and be recognized by a crowd.
Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi-Robo, and Sin & Punishment could all apply to this category. Even if only one or two got in every game, it would still excuse the irrelevancy issue that everyone loves to point out and not make each Smash game feel like it's all about the "newest and most recent brands".
I'd lump semi-clones into one category and call them Derivative Fighters,, but this actually covers every single fighter in the game really well. Legacy Fighters pretty much outnumber the rest of the roster though, lol.
Our Golden Boy would fit snugly into that Classic Fighter role until Golden Sun inevitably gets new games again afterwards.
I'd lump semi-clones into one category and call them Derivative Fighters,, but this actually covers every single fighter in the game really well. Legacy Fighters pretty much outnumber the rest of the roster though, lol.
Our Golden Boy would fit snugly into that Classic Fighter role until Golden Sun inevitably gets new games again afterwards.
In that case, we can't have Copy Fighter either since that's even more blatantly negative. How unique a semi-clone is can be pretty subjective so that's why it's easier to lump them into one category. Though I'll admit that Young Link, Pichu, and Doc push it. I'd be okay if they were given the Parallel Fighter category as an in-between to Derivative and Echo.
To clarify, I'm not saying Isaac's cold behavior was 1:1 with Felix's.
But when they reunited at the Jupiter lighthouse, he sounded a little harsh to me, as if he didn't want to deal with Felix's bs. He obviously became sympathetic after that, even insisting on the fact that it was Felix's journey from now on, and not his. Fast-forward to the ending where the crew is about to leave Prox; Isaac is still very serious (basically the same as he is in GS3) in ensuring that Weyard, Prox, and Mt. Aleph will be okay after the rise of the Golden Sun.
He does feel like a real leader, having become incredibly mature for his age thanks to the hardships of his journey. Which is very different from say, Roy, an ingenue leader who feels obligated to rely on others to make decisions and rarely voices desires that are his own.
I consider the 4koma strips to paint a way more naive/cheerful picture of Isaac - which is probably inavoidable if you want to create gags, but it does worry me that Smash might make that aspect of his personality universal, if you know what I mean...
Hey fellow Isaac supporters! It's been a long time since I've been in these parts. I'm still very hopeful that Isaac will get in this time. He is long overdue to be in Smash as a playable character.
Edit - I looked at the supporters list and I'm not on there. Could I be added to the supporters list? True Blue Warrior
To clarify, I'm not saying Isaac's cold behavior was 1:1 with Felix's.
He does feel like a real leader, having become incredibly mature for his age thanks to the hardships of his journey. Which is very different from say, Roy, an ingenue leader who feels obligated to rely on others to make decisions and rarely voices desires that are his own.
I consider the 4koma strips to paint a way more naive/cheerful picture of Isaac - which is probably inavoidable if you want to create gags, but it does worry me that Smash might make that aspect of his personality universal, if you know what I mean...
All fairness to Roy, he's only fifteen years old when he becomes leader of his war. Nobody would feel confident in their own decision-making, even if one thinks that an official translation for a remake would do his character better.
It's at least a good sign that none of that comic bowled over into Isaac's AT back in Brawl. Sakurai's already included the naive/cheerful personality with Pit, and if he's at least experienced TLA which is a fair assumption since it's 16 years old, he could clearly see that Isaac isn't like that.
I think we'd get more of a Marth/Roy "serious but visibly kind-hearted" personality from Isaac in Smash.
I think Isaac should have shades of cheeriness but it shouldn't overshadow the sense of duty he's depicted with in TLA, he's a teen sure but he's also got months of experience behind him
Isaac is a character who can do some really crazy advanced stuff with his psynergy so displaying him as goofy and inexperienced is a big no no. He does show joy in the games like when he and Felix do that cute victory jump in TLA so I don't want him stone cold serious like Cloud is. Like all you guys above me has mentioned a mix between being a little cheery and being stern and focused is a good personality for him.
To clarify, I'm not saying Isaac's cold behavior was 1:1 with Felix's.
But when they reunited at the Jupiter lighthouse, he sounded a little harsh to me, as if he didn't want to deal with Felix's bs. He obviously became sympathetic after that, even insisting on the fact that it was Felix's journey from now on, and not his. Fast-forward to the ending where the crew is about to leave Prox; Isaac is still very serious (basically the same as he is in GS3) in ensuring that Weyard, Prox, and Mt. Aleph will be okay after the rise of the Golden Sun.
He does feel like a real leader, having become incredibly mature for his age thanks to the hardships of his journey. Which is very different from say, Roy, an ingenue leader who feels obligated to rely on others to make decisions and rarely voices desires that are his own.
I consider the 4koma strips to paint a way more naive/cheerful picture of Isaac - which is probably inavoidable if you want to create gags, but it does worry me that Smash might make that aspect of his personality universal, if you know what I mean...
To be fair, he sounded harsh because he still thought Felix and the others were his enemies and that he'd likely have to stop them from igniting all the lighthouses.
But I get what you mean and I agree with you! Goofiness doesn't suit him but he wouldn't be like a "Sasuke" either, to use a really cliché character as comparison. x)
TVTropes sums it up quite correctly imo: Felix is levelheaded, and Isaac's a bit more impulsive.
I also found this impressive flipbook battle years ago between Isaac and Alex which is a good look on how cool Golden Sun battles can look in animation form.
There was also this fan mockup on what a Golden Sun anime intro would look like
I also found this impressive flipbook battle years ago between Isaac and Alex which is a good look on how cool Golden Sun battles can look in animation form.
There was also this fan mockup on what a Golden Sun anime intro would look like
That flipbook really gives me strong DBZ vibes (or dare I say, vibes of what Smash could look like as an anime). Golden Sun could totally take off if they promoted a new game with an anime adaptation that has these kinds of battle scenes.
All the series needs is a little promotion, and it'll become the new Fire Emblem and Xenoblade in no time.
I also found this impressive flipbook battle years ago between Isaac and Alex which is a good look on how cool Golden Sun battles can look in animation form.
I saw that a long time ago, really goes to show how neat I think Isaac could be in Smash. His abilities look great in motion, I think he could look really interesting to anyone in general who picks up Ultimate.
That flipbook really gives me strong DBZ vibes (or dare I say, vibes of what Smash could look like as an anime). Golden Sun could totally take off if they promoted a new game with an anime adaptation that has these kinds of battle scenes.
All the series needs is a little promotion, and it'll become the new Fire Emblem and Xenoblade in no time.
Yea, people have told me, "oh, GS isn't as big as Xenoblade, and FE has grown to be a lot bigger." Thing is, I don't think those series would have become a presence on the level they are now without Smash and other forms of advertisement. Nintendo never advertised GS well, and they didn't push the last game like they did with Xenoblade or the newer FE games. With the recent resurgence of turn-based RPGs, seeing as how games like Persona 5 are taking off rapidly with more and more people, I think GS would be a success nowadays if they actually cared enough to give it the attention and care Xenoblade and FE are getting.
Yea, people have told me, "oh, GS isn't as big as Xenoblade, and FE has grown to be a lot bigger." Thing is, I don't think those series would have become a presence on the level they are now without Smash and other forms of advertisement. Nintendo never advertised GS well, and they didn't push the last game like they did with Xenoblade or the newer FE games. With the recent resurgence of turn-based RPGs, seeing as how games like Persona 5 are taking off rapidly with more and more people, I think GS would be a success nowadays if they actually cared enough to give it the attention and care Xenoblade and FE are getting.
It starts with Camelot first and foremost. I think today's Nintendo would take care to give it plenty of attention in directs the way they did with Xenoblade and FE, but Camelot continues to show no interest in creating it because they profit enough from using the Mario brand.
There's only one thing at this point that would change their mind barring some mass movement like Operation Rainfall, and we all know what that thing is.
Hey fellow Isaac supporters! It's been a long time since I've been in these parts. I'm still very hopeful that Isaac will get in this time. He is long overdue to be in Smash as a playable character.
Edit - I looked at the supporters list and I'm not on there. Could I be added to the supporters list? True Blue Warrior
It starts with Camelot first and foremost. I think today's Nintendo would take care to give it plenty of attention in directs the way they did with Xenoblade and FE, but Camelot continues to show no interest in creating it because they profit enough from using the Mario brand.
There's only one thing at this point that would change their mind barring some mass movement like Operation Rainfall, and we all know what that thing is.
I doubt Camelot can decide in which project will work. Maybe they can ask/suggest Nintendo to do a new Golden Sun game (or a different game), but if Nintendo disagrees, or they priorize a new Mario Golf game, only Camelot can decide if they accept the project or not. And I doubt they would reject it.
At least we know they still want to do RPG games.
Also, it's a bit sad that, taking advantage of the new game, none of the important websites of the west had an interview with them, where the interviewer could ask if they wanted to do a new Golden Sun game. The only interview I saw was Famitsu and all of the questions were linked with MTA (unless google translator lied).
In my perfect world, now apparently Nintendo has unified their two consoles in one, Nd Cube (the Mario Party creators) would develop the Mario Sports titles (because they basically have two teams, one focused on MP in handhelds and another focused on MP in domestic consoles), so Nintendo could give differents projects to Camelot. But it seems they want to overexploit the Mario Party franchise even more...
I doubt Camelot can decide in which project will work. Maybe they can ask/suggest Nintendo to do a new Golden Sun game (or a different game), but if Nintendo disagrees, or they priorize a new Mario Golf game, only Camelot can decide if they accept the project or not. And I doubt they would reject it.
At least we know they still want to do RPG games.
Also, it's a bit sad that, taking advantage of the new game, none of the important websites of the west had an interview with them, where the interview could ask if they wanted to do a new Golden Sun game. The only interview I saw was Famitsu and all of the questions were linked with MTA (unless google translator lied).
In my perfect world, now apparently Nintendo has unified their two consoles in one, Nd Cube (the Mario Party creators) would develop the Mario Sports titles (because they basically have two teams, one focused on MP in handhelds and another focused on MP in domestic consoles), so Nintendo could give differents projects to Camelot. But it seems they want to overexploit the Mario Party franchise even more...
It's true that they can't act independently on creating a new Golden Sun game, as they have to get the approval of Nintendo, who owns the IP. However, if Nintendo's concern is the project taking away from developing a new Mario Tennis/Golf game, it was you that pointed out that Camelot would need to hire a team to help develop an RPG since their staff isn't big enough. The obvious approach is that once they do that, they can then split their resources into one team that develops Mario while the other develops Golden Sun.
Nintendo wouldn't say no if they still get the sports game they wanted. Camelot may not have full control, but they aren't stuck without any options of moving forward.
To clarify, I'm not saying Isaac's cold behavior was 1:1 with Felix's.
But when they reunited at the Jupiter lighthouse, he sounded a little harsh to me, as if he didn't want to deal with Felix's bs. He obviously became sympathetic after that, even insisting on the fact that it was Felix's journey from now on, and not his. Fast-forward to the ending where the crew is about to leave Prox; Isaac is still very serious (basically the same as he is in GS3) in ensuring that Weyard, Prox, and Mt. Aleph will be okay after the rise of the Golden Sun.
He does feel like a real leader, having become incredibly mature for his age thanks to the hardships of his journey. Which is very different from say, Roy, an ingenue leader who feels obligated to rely on others to make decisions and rarely voices desires that are his own.
I consider the 4koma strips to paint a way more naive/cheerful picture of Isaac - which is probably inavoidable if you want to create gags, but it does worry me that Smash might make that aspect of his personality universal, if you know what I mean...
Well true, the 4koma tends to put forward a way more hilarious version of Isaac, as most 4komas do to their characters, but in the first game, Isaac actually does have some derpy/naive moments, somewhat reminiscent of the comics. 2 of them instantly come to mind, one where Garet asks Isaac "Do you know what is that?" when they see the Wise One inside the Sol Sanctum, and upon answering "Yes" his reply is something along the lines "I already know that is a rock!". Basically Isaac told him "It's a rock", preferably in a totally serious manner xD
Second being Mercury Lighthouse where upon completing the last puzzle, you climb the last waterfall to the summit and Isaac, instead of entering the waterfall all gracefully like Mia, he stumbles into the water and flails helplessly as he is carried to the top. God, that was hilarious and one of my favourite funny moments in Golden Sun.
I think his personality change in Golden Sun 2, doesn't just happen cause of the hard journey that he has taken but also his many failures along the way. He was given the task of preventing the lighthouses from being lighted, but he reached Mercury lighthouse after it was already lit, failing to prevent the first beacon and on Venus Lighthouse, despite beating Saturos and Menardi, he was unable to stop them from tossing the star in the beacon. According to the Wise One, he carries the fate of the world on his shoulders and he has already failed in half of his mission. That would be enough to bring anyone down from whatever cheerful outlook they might have had in the start of the journey to a harsher outlook.
Second, his mission to find Lemuria and its immortality draughts, given to him by Babi. It is implied in the second game, I believe, that Isaac and party did manage to cross the Sea of Time, but failed to cross Poseidon as they had not reassembled the Trident of Ankohl due to which they had to inevitably retreat. Later it is revealed that Babi has died, and thus Isaac has failed the mission his now dead benefactor gave to him. Another mistake to add to his ever rising list of "failures".
I think Isaac's behavior in Golden Sun 2 is very justified, as he has gone through a lot, and according to him failed to complete the missions given to him. Now he is just fed up of the situation and is in a hurry to achieve what he set out for. Like how he tells Karst and Agatio to get out of his way, or he'd remove them himself, in his first "cocky" moment or his later conversations with Felix and co. It is different from Felix, who behaves in such a manner cause he thinks no one would understand his goals of lighting the lighthouses (which the elders of Vale truly find absurd) and hence tries to be aloof/separated from everyone.
I do agree that their behavior was somewhat similar, but the reasons for both characters were clearly quite different. Too bad the silent protagonist nature of the Golden Sun games doesn't let them highlight more differences between them.
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