Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[N3ON]

And THAT'S your key problem right there N3ON. You're assuming that NINTENDO is the one that asks for any game that Camelot makes. You're assuming that Camelot is at Nintendo's every whim for whatever projects to develop. You're assuming that Camelot MUST just want to make whatever they want, it's Nintendo that wants all of these sports spinoffs! Talk to me about assumptions all you want, but you're the one assuming the most here.

Nintendo is the one that actually wanted Golden Sun 3 to happen in 2003. Camelot is the one that didn't want to make it then. What does this tell us?

What Nintendo wants Camelot to make does not bloody matter whatsoever. They do not take such an active interest in outside companies to where they will expressly deny anything that they don't want to further their brand. Camelot chooses every single project they take on. Nintendo has no role in deciding what Camelot does or doesn't do even remotely, and this holds true for every company that Nintendo works with. The only thing they have say in is how the IP is used and represented. That's it. They are NOT going to say no to a Golden Sun game just because "a Mario sports game would be safer." That's Camelot's decision through and through.

And if you'll look at the sales data I posted earlier, look at where Mario Golf sits. In the history of the entire series, Mario Golf has broken 1 million sales one time. Is that your definition of a "safe" game? This is the reason that Golf hasn't gotten a new entry.

Your business minded approach towards Nintendo's interactions with their related developers is incredibly misguided and riddled with the most assumptions out of any argument on this thread.

Yes. My business-minded approach assumes these two businesses operate as businesses function. The way that publisher-oriented development works is that the party that holds the money and invests in the development of the product ultimately gets the final say on it. The people hired to make the product usually get a say in how it turns out, have a variable amount of creative freedom on a per case basis, and if they aren't owned by the investors or bound by a contract, can opt against making the product. It is a collaborative process determined by the parties involved and the contracts signed.

So it absolutely does matter completely what Nintendo wants if Camelot is working for them. If Camelot wants to make a Mario sports game, they can't without Nintendo's approval. If Camelot wants to make a Golden Sun, they can't without Nintendo's approval. Not only does Nintendo co-own these properties (maybe fully own the sports ones), and thus it would be illegal to make them without Nintendo's contractual approval, but Nintendo provides the funds. They can decide against developing whatever they want. Camelot is not self-sufficient, they rely on investment; they can't make those games without some means of financial backing.

Nintendo provides the money for development. Perhaps the idea of the game does not begin with them, but it absolutely ends with them, and suggesting otherwise demonstrates a blatant lack of understanding of just how the developer/publisher dynamic works. Nintendo and Camelot both have to be on board for the project to materialize.

Your idea, seemingly, is that if Camelot wants to make a game that Nintendo is against, Nintendo would be fine pouring money into a product that they believe to be a poor investment, or may even lose them money. That has absolutely no sense whatsoever for a business. Which Nintendo is.

 

[NessAtc.]

This would only be true if Camelot themselves weren't investing the brunt into it themselves, which they have been for all of their projects. It's why they needed to recoup after putting in so much money into GS1 and 2 originally.

Another assumption is the idea of them "being hired" to make games. This isn't how it works and Camelot's made it pretty clear themselves as well; Nintendo doesn't hire them, Camelot pitches it to them so that they are able to invest their money and manpower into it.

You're also assuming it's harder to gain Nintendo's approval than it actually is in regards to titles like this, when there actually has been on record several instances of it being shown to be not actually that hard. (See: Cadence of Hyrule) Even Retro internally was given time to **** around with a new IP until they were reigned in by Nintendo after like, three years, and they're owned by Nintendo.

Your idea is that Nintendo would be even against any of this in the first place, which is extraordinarily flawed. Yes, Camelot needs to have a successful pitch in order to get them backing it. Nintendo doesn't veto much of anything these days, however. I mean, Tokyo Mirage Sessions existed, and we're getting Famicom Detective Club remakes in 2021 as well.

You're assuming that Nintendo is far more uptight than they actually are.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Can they just announce the game already, I'm sick of this its been going on for like 2 years since we found the trademark.

 

[TempestSurge]

Supposed leaker? You mean Zippo? Yeah sure. If you want to take him at face value be my guest, but the man's track record is quite literally at nil.

The key thing is that you aren't supposed to take ANY of this just on their own. If you do that, of course it won't be convincing. You're supposed to take the trademark, the statements in the past years by Camelot, the scheduling, the not one, not two, but three leaks of Golden Sun on separate occasions, and Camelot's inactivity all at once. None of these things are assumptions. You have no idea how many credits lists I've combed to compare the Camelot roster.

I even brought myself up to speed on all of these relevant matters. It's fine if you don't want to believe/approach it with skepticism. That's all well and good. What I absolutely detest is all this information I'm throwing out there that I've collected over this time being just thrown in the garbage in favour of a leaker with the credibility of a long-nosed Pinocchio. I'm easily the single most skeptical person on this thread period, and yet it's impossible for me to simply assume that Golden Sun is not on the way.

The sales data of Golden Sun is also exceptionally important, and you can view that here.

Spoiler

Nintendo software and hardware sales data from 1983 to present

I'm going to keep this thread updated with new, more updated data. I will usually update the thread yearly (around May each year since it is when Nintendo reveal the results for the full fiscal year). UPDATED WITH DATA UNTIL SEPTEMBER 2020 Note: It's shipment data provided by Nintendo itself...

www.resetera.com

What this tangible data tells us is that yes, Golden Sun is a profitable franchise for Camelot to develop, and its demand hit a fever pitch in 2017-2018, a feat we've been keeping going with the events since. You want to know the reason why Camelot never made a Golden Sun for 3DS or Wii U? Because you can't justify a project that big without having some financial wiggle room, which they did not quite have coming off the backs of We Love Golf, and DD's decent but not exceptionally profitable sales. Now they've made the single best selling game they've ever produced in the history of their company.

This is the last I'm talking about this. Take it as you will. I no longer care how any of you interpret all of this; just know that there's zero reason to just give up. And that's the key reason I don't like the GS community; it's all so cynical.

Just want to say I appreciate you and Nazyrus researching and compiling this information on the trademark, with it there's something to hope and look forward to in regards to the future of Golden Sun and that's good enough for me. Playing the waiting game is miles better than nitpicking and going back and forth through the same points in this thread over and over. Whatever will be will be.

 

[clearandsweet]

This is actually news to me. I wasn't aware of other new trademarks for old properties, especially something like Wii Music. If these are all the same kind of thing, then yeah, what are we hoping for here? I know Naz has gone over this a million times, and clearly they're getting frustrated, but if what I'm reading is true, then there isn't any guarantee of anything, which certainly changes things in a drastic way.

Because of an extra trademark in Korea? Because Camelot has been silent? That's actually pretty dubious... Now we're just assuming things, which I railed against earlier today. : P

Yup, you and N3ON pretty much right on here. I brought this up when it was first filed and a couple other times in this thread. The end of the topic is well none of us are Nintendo's IP lawyers or know what happened, but there exist many non-renewal trademarks for IPs that seemingly don't have a future. Whether it was a refilling to meet some new structure or what, we have no idea, and likely won't ever know.

Of course we can also see the filing for what became Animal Crossing: New Horizons right before Golden Sun's too so who knows. It wouldn't be much to read into without the information of filing for the trademark in areas never previously applied for or without Camelot's silence.

Yes, well, if you've caught the news recently there's been a pandemic on that pushed a lot of Nintendo's games into the following year.

This thread's penchant for acting like the year has otherwise played out normally is very strange.

I don't like the pandemic point in relation to Camelot specifically. Yeah, a business run by old Japanese businessmen in Tokyo would have taken a productivity hit this year, but we expected a release from Camelot in March 2020 if they were following their normal timeline, and having nothing announced by January was already suspect. Even at a reduced pace, they should have absolutely put something out this year, unless it required far more work than your average Mario Golf game.

Your idea is that Nintendo would be even against any of this in the first place, which is extraordinarily flawed. Yes, Camelot needs to have a successful pitch in order to get them backing it. Nintendo doesn't veto much of anything these days, however. I mean, Tokyo Mirage Sessions existed, and we're getting Famicom Detective Club remakes in 2021 as well.

You're assuming that Nintendo is far more uptight than they actually are.

NessAtc. touches on something I feel is pretty important here: clout. The idea of old Japanese drinking buddies getting deals done over yakiniku as how things like this happen is entirely legit. There's this great story I heard on the 8-4 Play podcast where an expat working for Sega or Square or something was talking about getting things done in the corporate environment and getting nowhere until they took up smoking to go smoke with the boss, then floated the idea to them over cigarettes. Then the idea happened.

Sure, a second-party deal requires both parties on board fully, but that's basically a given with the Takahashis and Nintendo at this point, such is the clout/relationship there. You don't make good, marketable games every 18 months for 30 years and find yourself unable to get support to do one more. And all of that is without bring up NessAtc's point about Nintendo more willing to invest in other projects like Candance of Hyrule, Bayonetta, Monoliftsoft, ect.

 

[NessAtc.]

NessAtc. touches on something I feel is pretty important here: clout. The idea of old Japanese drinking buddies getting deals done over yakiniku as how things like this happen is entirely legit. There's this great story I heard on the 8-4 Play podcast where an expat working for Sega or Square or something was talking about getting things done in the corporate environment and getting nowhere until they took up smoking to go smoke with the boss, then floated the idea to them over cigarettes. Then the idea happened.

We even already know that this is how Dark Dawn was initially conceived just based on the interviews from back then.

 

[Nazyrus]

We even already know that this is how Dark Dawn was initially conceived just based on the interviews from back then.

Yeah.
And I'm preeetty sure the same interview where Takahashi confirmed they would make GS again whenever a console mixes home and handheld, it was the same interview where he confirmed that Nintendo was literally begging them to do more, but Takahashi thought it wasn't the right time (which is how then he continued to mention the idea of a hybrid console, the madman literally gave Nintendo the concept idea over 10 years ago lol. ) Nintendo always wanted more GS, Takahashi's different plans at the time is what stopped that from happening right away, and he told us already when he would be interested to do it again.

Yup, you and N3ON pretty much right on here. I brought this up when it was first filed and a couple other times in this thread. The end of the topic is well none of us are Nintendo's IP lawyers or know what happened, but there exist many non-renewal trademarks for IPs that seemingly don't have a future. Whether it was a refilling to meet some new structure or what, we have no idea, and likely won't ever know.

Of course we can also see the filing for what became Animal Crossing: New Horizons right before Golden Sun's too so who knows. It wouldn't be much to read into without the information of filing for the trademark in areas never previously applied for or without Camelot's silence.

This is why it's important to spot the difference between renewals and NEW trademarks. GS is the latter. New trademarks always means new products, while Renewals don't necessarily mean anything at all ( 1:1 ports at best, just keeping the brand protected at worst )

I don't like the pandemic point in relation to Camelot specifically. Yeah, a business run by old Japanese businessmen in Tokyo would have taken a productivity hit this year, but we expected a release from Camelot in March 2020 if they were following their normal timeline, and having nothing announced by January was already suspect. Even at a reduced pace, they should have absolutely put something out this year, unless it required far more work than your average Mario Golf game.

Exactly, this is why I pointed it out some pages ago when talking about the amount of time that has passed between titles announcements. Aces had its development entirely restarted and it still only took 15 months to be announced after Superstars came out. All of Camelot's releases are super consistent, and by January of this year, they had already taken about 19 months without announcing something new. Golf wouldn't ever take longer than Aces, definitely not a whole another extra year than what Aces took. Then my source in 2019 december said golf wasn't even in development at all, and THEN the mario direct happened a few months ago, no sign of mario sport related game from Camelot. We know for a fact already that Camelot's next game isn't a mario golf one (and definitely not a second tennis game in a row, since they never do that lol). And on top of all of that, as I always like to point out, there is no new trademark for any new mario golf. Just another way of me saying how useful NEW trademarks actually are, they are always telling. Renewals are the ones that aren't.

Also renewals only take 2 months to be approved, not 1 or 2 years like the GS one took, nor renewals need so many proofs of use as new trademarks do. It's honestly pretty easy to spot the difference at this date just seeing how renewals and new trademarks go, and how the GS new one behaved.

At this point it has been officially 2 years and half since Aces release. And taking in count the team was done with Aces in December 2017, then it has been 3 years already, more or less… so yeah… This is the longest ever from Camelot to announce something, covid or no covid, by january of this year, if it was something as simple as mario golf, we would have seen it, and if it was affected, we would still have seen it in the mario presentation which covers basically the first half of 2021 as far as mario plans go. No way in hell it takes 3 years and half for them to release a Golf or any sport game by then, rofl.

Basically there is a lot of legal stuff backing up GS's return, aside from my source and another guy who is in one of our GS servers who has an even crazier source than mine, who hears stuff as soon as projects are greenlit (he heard both GS and TWEWY sequel back in 2018 when their new trademarks were filled… guess what got announced just recently? Neo TWEWY... so yeah). Meanwhile nothing mario related from camelot has anything backing it up to happen as camelot's next product. The "Mario Sports" trademark that just got registered this summer still has to go through all the process of approval, which we know by now tends to take a year, if not even more, so whatever product that is it's obviously still in early phases, and as the past Mario Sports games, it's most likely gonna be made again by either Bamco or Square Enix.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I already said this before a few pages ago, but every new game has a new trademark behind it because that's 100% needed for them to protect the brand of the new product they are selling, there are no exceptions to this unless the company is stupid enough (which nintendo isn't) to release new products and risk outsiders to claim their contents as theirs. Something I will forever stress out is that people out there need to spot when a trademark is new, or when it's a renewal, then they can draw their conclusions of it meaning something, or nothing at all. Sometimes spotting this is difficult because there is no enough info to cross examine whether the trademark that is in front of your eyes isn't just a renewal of the old one. Thankfully, we had all the info needed to confirm the GS one is new while the original GS trademark is still active till 2021, and we know trademarks can only be renewed a few months prior to expiration, not 3 FREAKING YEARS prior, it's just not possible to do it that early haha, it's a requirement basically. I learnt this by reading how trademarks in JAPAN specifically work.

Trademarks are not assumptions, or a matter of belief. They aren't theories. They are things that exist, have strict requirements and proceedures. They can only happen if requirements are met, such as proof of new product's existence, and many other things that even I don't know about because it's a long, boooring topic for anyone in the end, I just learned what was useful for us anyway. Trademarks are something that you just learn about, not something you have to "believe" or not.

People can doubt a new game if they want, that doesn't bother me AT ALL, but I just ask for people out there to not come saying trademarks mean nothing if they haven't studied a single thing about it in the first place. Most people who do this aren't even aware that there are new trademarks and renewals as 2 different types. People just need to stop undermining new trademarks' importance and value to us in speculation. If any of you are sure that a trademark is a renewal after doing actual research, by all means, you can ignore it. Golden sun is not a renewal, so at most you should just consider it interesting, even if you still doubt a game coming to protect your hype level or whatever you call it, lol. The last thing we need is people spreading misinformation, we already deal enough with journalists saying wrong things.

 

[Monue]

This is why it's important to spot the difference between renewals and NEW trademarks. GS is the latter. New trademarks always means new products, while Renewals don't necessarily mean anything at all ( 1:1 ports at best, just keeping the brand protected at worst )

Alright, I'm not trying to be a nuisance here, but what N3ON showed earlier looked like Golden Sun and Wii Music got the same treatment, that they were both new trademarks, along with a plethora of other games. That didn't make sense, because we're not getting a Wii Music game, the Wii isn't even supported anymore.

I get what you're saying, I really do, new trademarks and renewals are not the same thing, but is there a way to show me the difference between what Golden Sun received, and what Wii Music received? If they were both new trademarks, which is what it looked like, then that to me suggests a new trademark doesn't necessarily mean a new game.

For the moment, I'm setting aside everything else you're talking about here. I'm looking for something concrete, not what people I've never met have said, or fan assumptions on what a company is up to just because they haven't done anything in awhile. I'm not saying you're wrong about these things, just that for what I'm after at the moment, that doesn't satisfy my criteria.

Did Golden Sun and Wii Music both get new Trademarks, and can you show me the difference if they didn't - or if they DID, can you explain why one would get a game, and the other wouldn't?

EDIT: I did reread some of what you said, and it made a bit more sense, particularly the timeline stuff. I'd still, for my own sake, like to know if there's any way to distinguish between what Golden Sun received and what Wii Music received? Is there, like, some kind of file type that's different, or a code, or anything? It still doesn't super duper make sense that Wii Music got a new trademark, which is how it looked, because the two looked almost indistinguishable.


I don't know. I keep rereading it, and a lot of it does make sense, I suppose. I'm not sure if there is a way to distinguish between them other than some of the timeline stuff. I wish there was a bit more I could hold on to, but I'm feeling better about it than I was last night, even though I'm still not quite as much a believer as I was yesterday morning. Nothing against anyone or their interpretations, you've all been very helpful.

 

[Nazyrus]

Alright, I'm not trying to be a nuisance here, but what N3ON showed earlier looked like Golden Sun and Wii Music got the same treatment, that they were both new trademarks, along with a plethora of other games. That didn't make sense, because we're not getting a Wii Music game, the Wii isn't even supported anymore.

I get what you're saying, I really do, new trademarks and renewals are not the same thing, but is there a way to show me the difference between what Golden Sun received, and what Wii Music received? If they were both new trademarks, which is what it looked like, then that to me suggests a new trademark doesn't necessarily mean a new game.

For the moment, I'm setting aside everything else you're talking about here. I'm looking for something concrete, not what people I've never met have said, or fan assumptions on what a company is up to just because they haven't done anything in awhile. I'm not saying you're wrong about these things, just that for what I'm after at the moment, that doesn't satisfy my criteria.

Did Golden Sun and Wii Music both get new Trademarks, and can you show me the difference if they didn't - or if they DID, can you explain why one would get a game, and the other wouldn't?

EDIT: I did reread some of what you said, and it made a bit more sense, particularly the timeline stuff. I'd still, for my own sake, like to know if there's any way to distinguish between what Golden Sun received and what Wii Music received? Is there, like, some kind of file type that's different, or a code, or anything? It still doesn't super duper make sense that Wii Music got a new trademark, which is how it looked, because the two looked almost indistinguishable.


I don't know. I keep rereading it, and a lot of it does make sense, I suppose. I'm not sure if there is a way to distinguish between them other than some of the timeline stuff. I wish there was a bit more I could hold on to, but I'm feeling better about it than I was last night, even though I'm still not quite as much a believer as I was yesterday morning. Nothing against anyone or their interpretations, you've all been very helpful.

New trademarks: take around a year or even more depending on the difficulties, to get approved. They require a full process of approval that goes through multiple regions to assure where they can get the protection of the brand/product granted. (there are specific regions for term of use, those are the ones that matter to get approval of protection, the rest are just secondary regions and not obligatory).

Renewals: all that they require is the payment for renewal, and to be renewed within 6 months ( I think) before the trademark's expiration, not any time earlier than that. They only take one or two months at most to get the renewal through (unlike new trademarks), and doesn't take the process of approval that new ones have.

A special situation for filling a new trademark all together, is in case that the old one was never renewed and it expired, therefore needing to create a new trademark all over again if they want to keep protecting that brand. But to be sure if this is what happened at all, I dunno if there is any way to find out sadly… This Wii Music trademark could remain a mystery until we figure out if its original trademark ever expired or not…

Also I forgot to remind everyone once again, that this new trademark of Golden Sun also adds new regions to protect the brand, places where Golden Sun was NEVER released before, like Korea specially. You don't do that with a simple renewal of a product you're not gonna continue selling anywhere to begin with,lol. And again Golden Sun took a process of approval + the amount of time that process took. We know for a fact that it is NOT a renewal, period. All the angles are covered for that question.

I checked further the Wii Music trademark that appeared in 2018, and it hasn't even been approved yet. If they are making something with Wii Music, it's still not close to being a thing to be marketed if they haven't legally been able to protect it yet for whatever reason. They haven't reached the "final decision" final step of the approval process.

Here a view of how that trademark's process of approval looks as of now:

Last update was a refusal of protection in one of its secondary regions (not one of the obligatory ones… I think) and that was back in January of this year. The amount of time that has passed without an update on the trademark is not good at all honestly, it might end being cancelled all together if they still haven't approved it at this super late date ending 2020 already. And again, we dont know if the original one expired and this one was just meant to create a new one to protect that brand, altho that would beg the question as to what proof of "use" they gave if they are not gonna sell that game again… Honestly, this is one special case of a new trademark where we just don't have enough info, a rare case to say the least.

That's just a minority of a situation anyway, considering it's not approved and it's not clear what the reason behind its creation is. Meanwhile 99% of new trademarks nintendo register DO end being for something, unless they are visually clearly cancelled or refused. Last year we had the big Mario one that ended being for all of the stuff we saw in the anniversary now. Xenoblade Chronicles also had a new trademark appear a few years ago, and we saw what it was for early this year. Wrecking Crew had a new trademark also registered in 2018 and approved later on which ended being for "arcade archives vs wrecking crew". This one I will mention is not Nintendo but trademarks basically work the same for every company anyway… The world ends with you. Registered in 2018, finally announced now in late 2020.

I can keep going on and on, but the point that I'm making is already made anyway, which is that if a new trademark is registered, andTHEN gets approved, then it's all a matter of time for it to be announced. We now have a HUGE zelda trademark covering multiple classes just like the mario one from last year did, which is most likely going to be for all the products and games they will be marketing in the Zelda 35th anniversary in just a couple of months, so stay tuned for that

Meanwhile, the Golden Sun one was finally approved this March after Nintendo FOUGHT for this one to not get refused and cancelled, it went through 2 rerfusals and one extension of time for deadline of approval, and they were finally able to get it approved. Which other trademark has gone through this you might ask? Well, Breath of the Wild's trademark actually went through the same bumpy ride until approved. Nintendo only fights this hard for a trademark they definitely want approved for a new product, specially with the money it costs them. And well… a few weeks after in April is when my source told me that GS HD is indeed a thing, as I have said before, but i'm just the second person to hear about it, because like i said, a guy who has an even crazier source than mine heard both GS and TWEWY sequel back in 2018 when both projects were greenlit (and also happens to be the year that BOTH games got a new trademark registered). His source has given him info about other big stuff in the past, like the demon souls game being a thing, FF 16 being an exclusive, etc etc…

Anyways, here is how the fully approved trademark of GS looks like in case you've never seen it. I made a big deal about it on twitter when it finally happened, lol.

So yeah. Wii Music hasn't had any update on its trademark situation and honestly it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere as it hasn't progressed AT ALL ever since its last update… who knows if it will get cancelled or what, but all of these processes have deadlines, so I guess we will find out sooner than later, but until it's approved, you shouldn't be surprised of not seeing anything come out of it. And once again, we don't even know if they are just trying to make a new one because maybe the old one could have possibly expired without a renewal made, we really don't know much about this one. But this doesn't affect at all the reality of which all other confirmed NEW trademarks have been for something eventually announced or to be announced, it just keeps happening because it is a thing. Just because we can't figure out what some trademarks are for or will be even for if at all, doesn't mean that the ones we have enough info of aren't gonna be a thing ever. Again, we saw it happen with mario anniversary one, we will see it with zelda, we saw it with wrecking crew, TWEWY sequel, and so on and on. The lack of details on some trademarks only means we lack explanation to why they possible don't end manifesting into anything later, it's not connected to everything else lol, that's just us not having enough info to know what we are ACTUALLY looking at with some of them. But that is not the case with the GS one thankfully, we DO have enough info with that one, so who cares lol

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Came to see what was happening in the Isaac thread and got met with a whole page of essays. What the hell did something big happen?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Came to see what was happening in the Isaac thread and got met with a whole page of essays. What the hell did something big happen?

Two words: copyright laws.

 

[Nazyrus]

Came to see what was happening in the Isaac thread and got met with a whole page of essays. What the hell did something big happen?

Nothing new just re-explaining old trademark things for the hundredth time lol.

Two words: copyright laws.

Trademarks to be correct

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Two words: copyright laws.

Actually trademark laws, not copyright laws.

Both can get confusing either way, heh.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Actually trademark laws, not copyright laws.

Both can get confusing either way, heh.

See? I got confused mentioning it!

 

[SonicLink125]

New trademarks: take around a year or even more depending on the difficulties, to get approved. They require a full process of approval that goes through multiple regions to assure where they can get the protection of the brand/product granted. (there are specific regions for term of use, those are the ones that matter to get approval of protection, the rest are just secondary regions and not obligatory).

Renewals: all that they require is the payment for renewal, and to be renewed within 6 months ( I think) before the trademark's expiration, not any time earlier than that. They only take one or two months at most to get the renewal through (unlike new trademarks), and doesn't take the process of approval that new ones have.

A special situation for filling a new trademark all together, is in case that the old one was never renewed and it expired, therefore needing to create a new trademark all over again if they want to keep protecting that brand. But to be sure if this is what happened at all, I dunno if there is any way to find out sadly… This Wii Music trademark could remain a mystery until we figure out if its original trademark ever expired or not…

Also I forgot to remind everyone once again, that this new trademark of Golden Sun also adds new regions to protect the brand, places where Golden Sun was NEVER released before, like Korea specially. You don't do that with a simple renewal of a product you're not gonna continue selling anywhere to begin with,lol. And again Golden Sun took a process of approval + the amount of time that process took. We know for a fact that it is NOT a renewal, period. All the angles are covered for that question.

I checked further the Wii Music trademark that appeared in 2018, and it hasn't even been approved yet. If they are making something with Wii Music, it's still not close to being a thing to be marketed if they haven't legally been able to protect it yet for whatever reason. They haven't reached the "final decision" final step of the approval process.

Here a view of how that trademark's process of approval looks as of now:
View attachment 297587
Last update was a refusal of protection in one of its secondary regions (not one of the obligatory ones… I think) and that was back in January of this year. The amount of time that has passed without an update on the trademark is not good at all honestly, it might end being cancelled all together if they still haven't approved it at this super late date ending 2020 already. And again, we dont know if the original one expired and this one was just meant to create a new one to protect that brand, altho that would beg the question as to what proof of "use" they gave if they are not gonna sell that game again… Honestly, this is one special case of a new trademark where we just don't have enough info, a rare case to say the least.

That's just a minority of a situation anyway, considering it's not approved and it's not clear what the reason behind its creation is. Meanwhile 99% of new trademarks nintendo register DO end being for something, unless they are visually clearly cancelled or refused. Last year we had the big Mario one that ended being for all of the stuff we saw in the anniversary now. Xenoblade Chronicles also had a new trademark appear a few years ago, and we saw what it was for early this year. Wrecking Crew had a new trademark also registered in 2018 and approved later on which ended being for "arcade archives vs wrecking crew". This one I will mention is not Nintendo but trademarks basically work the same for every company anyway… The world ends with you. Registered in 2018, finally announced now in late 2020.

I can keep going on and on, but the point that I'm making is already made anyway, which is that if a new trademark is registered, andTHEN gets approved, then it's all a matter of time for it to be announced. We now have a HUGE zelda trademark covering multiple classes just like the mario one from last year did, which is most likely going to be for all the products and games they will be marketing in the Zelda 35th anniversary in just a couple of months, so stay tuned for that

Meanwhile, the Golden Sun one was finally approved this March after Nintendo FOUGHT for this one to not get refused and cancelled, it went through 2 rerfusals and one extension of time for deadline of approval, and they were finally able to get it approved. Which other trademark has gone through this you might ask? Well, Breath of the Wild's trademark actually went through the same bumpy ride until approved. Nintendo only fights this hard for a trademark they definitely want approved for a new product, specially with the money it costs them. And well… a few weeks after in April is when my source told me that GS HD is indeed a thing, as I have said before, but i'm just the second person to hear about it, because like i said, a guy who has an even crazier source than mine heard both GS and TWEWY sequel back in 2018 when both projects were greenlit (and also happens to be the year that BOTH games got a new trademark registered). His source has given him info about other big stuff in the past, like the demon souls game being a thing, FF 16 being an exclusive, etc etc…

Anyways, here is how the fully approved trademark of GS looks like in case you've never seen it. I made a big deal about it on twitter when it finally happened, lol.

View attachment 297588

So yeah. Wii Music hasn't had any update on its trademark situation and honestly it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere as it hasn't progressed AT ALL ever since its last update… who knows if it will get cancelled or what, but all of these processes have deadlines, so I guess we will find out sooner than later, but until it's approved, you shouldn't be surprised of not seeing anything come out of it. And once again, we don't even know if they are just trying to make a new one because maybe the old one could have possibly expired without a renewal made, we really don't know much about this one. But this doesn't affect at all the reality of which all other confirmed NEW trademarks have been for something eventually announced or to be announced, it just keeps happening because it is a thing. Just because we can't figure out what some trademarks are for or will be even for if at all, doesn't mean that the ones we have enough info of aren't gonna be a thing ever. Again, we saw it happen with mario anniversary one, we will see it with zelda, we saw it with wrecking crew, TWEWY sequel, and so on and on. The lack of details on some trademarks only means we lack explanation to why they possible don't end manifesting into anything later, it's not connected to everything else lol, that's just us not having enough info to know what we are ACTUALLY looking at with some of them. But that is not the case with the GS one thankfully, we DO have enough info with that one, so who cares lol

I wish there was a pin feature here so that if anyone needs to know the situation about Golden Sun returning, we can direct them to posts like this one. There is a reason why some of us are very excited for the future of Golden Sun.
When it comes to Isaac being DLC, it all really depends on Nintendo and personally, Isaac has a 50/50 chance. Does Nintendo use this opportunity to add Isaac (who definitely know that many would want him to be playable) so that they can help promote the new GS game which is a very smart decision business wise OR do they have other plans in mind? Sephiroth has changed Smash speculation once again and his inclusion, to me, made me think Isaac is a lot more likely to get in than ever. Sadly, I don't think he's a guarantee because if I did, I'd go nuts. Haha. If he doesn't get in, at least we get a new GS game AND we have established a campaign that will move towards the next Smash game that's much stronger than before. So, our fight will not be in vain. We did our part to the best of our ability. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Whether you believe Isaac can get in or not, still support him regardless. Eventually, that support will come to fruition. Never give up, Adepts!

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Hopefully we get that official Golden Sun reveal soon to put this whole era of trademark analysis behind us haha. It's fun but yeah we've been doing this back and forth for over a year at this point

 

[Krosshair]

NGL my brain HURTS just from reading all this trademark stuff but if it means Golden Sun returning then by the Buddha, the pain was worth it

I became a fan of Golden Sun in 2017 and was massively in favor of Isaac getting into Ultimate, but now this new game is all that matters because I just want to revisit the wonderful world of Weyard once again

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Hey Isaac thread, while you wait for trademark news, please come in to discuss your favorite character in Create a Smash Ultimate Sequel Project. Here, we build a game from the ground up and Isaac was chosen as our first newcomer character (to be revealed at a hypothetical E3). We voted to include him and now will begin working on his gameplay, mechanics, gimmicks, and stats followed by movesets and misc. info. We would greatly appreciate this threads knowledge and expertise!

 

[SonicLink125]

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Do you think Sephiroth gets Isaac (and a few others) confused for Cloud because of their blond hair? Like how Amy thought Shadow and Silver were Sonic at one time? Lol

Hey Isaac thread, while you wait for trademark news, please come in to discuss your favorite character in Create a Smash Ultimate Sequel Project. Here, we build a game from the ground up and Isaac was chosen as our first newcomer character (to be revealed at a hypothetical E3). We voted to include him and now will begin working on his gameplay, mechanics, gimmicks, and stats followed by movesets and misc. info. We would greatly appreciate this threads knowledge and expertise!

Ooooh! That’s very interesting!

 

[NessAtc.]

If Isaac's in pass 2, we'd have to do another roll on who's the newcomer for the hypothetical new game right

That'd be really funny

 

[extremeturkey]

Even if they did file documents to make a new game, it wouldn't necessarily mean the game wouldn't get scrapped during development.

If they ever make a golden sun sequel, I would be 100% fine with just starting over entirely. Dark Dawn's story is a MESS, nobody is going to remember what happened in that game 11+ years after its release, except maybe some of the superfans. Trying to recap the story to get people up to speed like they did in Dark Dawn for the GBA games would be such a mess for new players. And honestly I think Dark Dawn's story isn't even compelling, I personally don't care about the tuaparang or the black holes that they never bothered to address.

IMO, if they make a new Golden Sun game, don't even add any of the characters we know. Add in the Wise One since he's immemorial. Keep the lore about Psynergy. There is some good lore in the Golden Sun universe about the djinn, psynergy, the wise one, the lighthouses, and the elements. Take those and create a new story, the same way Zelda games make entirely new/reimagined stories sharing certain elements and themes.

You could set it hundreds of years in the future/past, in a completely different setting. Create a compelling story from there. And it'll be so much better than trying to spend their time closing up plot threads from Dark Dawn, which hardly anybody cares about anyway.

 

[TempestSurge]

Most games do tend to change protagonists with each new entry. Though the Takahashi Bros decided to make Golden Sun a continuous story with an endgame in mind since they stated the first two games were a prequel of things to come and their final words was wanting to have time to work on the story. Then the Dark Dawn trademark makes me think they're possibly not scrapping anything and will continue with the current storyboard they've already started. Of course makes it hard to speculate until we actually see what this new game entails and whether it'll be a straight faithful recreation or change some things up. Although I doubt it'll be 7Remake levels of different lol.

 

[DrakeHavok]

Most games do tend to change protagonists with each new entry. Though the Takahashi Bros decided to make Golden Sun a continuous story with an endgame in mind since they stated the first two games were a prequel of things to come and their final words was wanting to have time to work on the story. Then the Dark Dawn trademark makes me think they're possibly not scrapping anything and will continue with the current storyboard they've already started. Of course makes it hard to speculate until we actually see what this new game entails and whether it'll be a straight faithful recreation or change some things up. Although I doubt it'll be 7Remake levels of different lol.

If it is a remake, my hope would be that it's the same basic plot, but with expanded characterization, possibly in the style of Tales-esque skits interactions so that everybody isn't so one-note.

If it's a new game though, I do expect us to get another new protagonist, likely Felix's son and daughter (yes, I fully expect Felix to have two kids the way his parents did), and if that happens I hope they're part Proxian with at least one of them having a Sveta-esque dragon transformation. Yes, I've thought about this a lot.
If we do stick with Matthew, then I still hope to encounter Felix's kids. Along with Felix himself. And more past protagonists than just Isaac and Garret!

 

[Kalaam]

I think (but it's just me) that a remake would modernize the narration a bit, offering more characterization (optional party discussion on the world map or at the inn? Isaac having his own dialogue lines since most of our choices are meaningless anyway ?). Plus, cutscenes could show character personnality through non-verbal language. There would be a big difference between Isaac drawing his sword at Dodonpa and him holding Garet from doing haymaker on his dumb face.

 

[Krosshair]

Honestly?

I hope that the remake does away with the concept of the silent protagonist and actually lets them either choose small scripts of dialogue that can cosmetically alter some of the subsequent lines from other characters or actually give them lines.

Dark Dawn's emote system was okay but it's still not the best.

 

[TempestSurge]

Honestly?

I hope that the remake does away with the concept of the silent protagonist and actually lets them either choose small scripts of dialogue that can cosmetically alter some of the subsequent lines from other characters or actually give them lines.

Dark Dawn's emote system was okay but it's still not the best.

Yeah in that regard Golden Sun shows it's age. It's hard to imagine the face system coming back in this day and age. Also if GS 1 and 2 will be put into one game then Isaac/Felix will be talking in one part of the game and then silent in another. Which is in tune with the OG since they were silent protagonists in their respective games but as one game... might feel a bit odd. As a new player I'd wonder why they didn't talk the entire time lol. It'll be interesting to see how that's tackled.

 

[FlawedAI]

I'm not all that bothered by silent protagonists, but something I did like about Final Fantasy VII Remake is that it didn't let you pick Cloud's name so that way the voiced cutscenes could actually refer to him as Cloud. I wouldn't mind the same thing being done for Isaac/Felix because they have well-known, canon names.

 

[Kalaam]

I think expanding the emote system from DD could work, making it easier to read and predict what the character will convey.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

People always knock games down when they have branching dialogue options that have little effect on the later story so I'd be fine with a new game toning that aspect down in favor of more fleshed out and concise characterisation for the protagonists

 

[ArkSPiTFirE]

Yeah, I hope that Isaac has a voice. It would make sense if they plan on putting the two GBA games together, and make the transition of main characters somewhat seamless.

I like the idea of choosing responses still, whether that be Yes/No, or the emojis. As long as they give us a line of dialogue so we know what we're actualyl saying.

 

[Kalaam]

I mean, isn't Joker silent too in P5?

 

[DrakeHavok]

I mean, isn't Joker silent too in P5?

Technically, but the player still got to pick lines of dialogue that other characters could react to differently depending on what was chosen. With GS the most we ever got was the emote system, which imo was even worse than the yes/no from the first two games (largely because it was pretty much impossible to tell wtf they actually meant for each conversation).

 

[TempestSurge]

Technically, but the player still got to pick lines of dialogue that other characters could react to differently depending on what was chosen. With GS the most we ever got was the emote system, which imo was even worse than the yes/no from the first two games (largely because it was pretty much impossible to tell wtf they actually meant for each conversation).

Jeez those Dark Dawn emotes rally had me thinking too hard to figure out the right thing to pick. Like you could have Tyrell doing antics and Karis conversating and you'd get the emote and it's like doh! Am I reacting to Tyrell or Karis? Sometimes I'd get blasted by Karis for my reaction that I thought was meant for Tyrell lol. Or picking the smiley face to be told I'm being cocky or going with a more subdued emotion to be told I'm not being confident. What do you want from me? lol

 

[Monue]

These are the things that keep me up at night regarding the remake.

Will they add voice acting, how will it impact Isaac and Felix's silent protagonist trope? Will they go for a more old-school presentation, or completely upgrade everything like the new Final Fantasy game? Wouldn't that be ambitious - Golden Sun isn't exactly Final Fantasy as much as I wish it were. Are they drawing in fans of the originals, or looking for a new audience? Can a balance be struck?

Maybe something like the upgrade between Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and Fire Emblem: Awakening is more in order, or even Fire Emblem: Three Houses. There are so many unknowns! What about something like the new Dragon Quest games, or maybe Xenoblades? I honestly don't know what would work for Golden Sun, and the traditional JRPG style, to my knowledge, has been a tougher sell for younger, modern audiences who like a little action in their RPGs, but I can't imagine how Golden Sun could upgrade their combat system to account for that.

I really have trouble imagining the scope of the remaster. I want them to go huge, but it's so hard to imagine - and if they don't, I worry it won't attract as big an audience. I hope Nintendo is pushing for it to be another in-house, top tier RPG of theirs, at least on the level of Fire Emblem.

 

[Guynamednelson]

how will it impact Isaac and Felix's silent protagonist trope?

Sign up Felix's VA for one game, and try to catch him saying "Why?" and record that. Bam, voice acting for one character in two games done.

 

[Kalaam]

I think it can go two ways.
Xenoblade way, where in cutscenes they are voiced and we have no input we just watch. And in smaller scenes we have some choices for roleplay and stuff.
P5 style, where we never have the character actually speak, but we can select lines of dialogue.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Happy new year Golden Bros, may this year be the year!

 

[Kisae]

Happy New Year everybody. Hopefully this year is our year and the Sun will rise again !

 

[ArkSPiTFirE]

Happy New Year adepts! Fingers crossed for an announcement.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

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I'm very excited for the 20th anniversary of the franchise this year. Have a Golden and Sunny New Year everyone