Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[ZelDan]

You guys seem to forget that we have two Earthbound characters, so technically... Ok, I'm out.

We also have a character who is referred to as "Rockman."

...Well, atleast Isaac still has the giant psynergy hands to help him stand ou-

.........Well ****.

 

[Ultinarok]

...You're not wrong about what Isaac is technically capable off, but for Smash purposes I think most would agree that his primary element should be earth - not just because there's not yet a single character in Smash who fights by controlling the earth, but also because it's the element he has had the most association with in every single GS game. If he were to utilize any other elements at all, I think it would be best if it was done as an aspect of a djinn system, and only through his special attacks - his normal attacks that utilize psynergy should all still be of the earth element.

...aaaand now I'm getting more moveset ideas.

This is actually what I was thinking. Have specials that change effect by cycling Djinn, but have his standards use his sword and Earth magic. Like Min-Min with her arms essentially.

 

[NessAtc.]

you guys know Kid Buu crouching medium in dbfz

give that to Isaac

 

[Krosshair]

you guys know Kid Buu crouching medium in dbfz

give that to Isaac

please and thank you

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

How I handled the djinn, they're able to be selected with his down special where each of them has a specific nerf and can recharge over time. Check the moveset in my signature for more details. Regardless the potential djinn have for a Smash moveset in general is exciting

 

[SonicLink125]

Christmas is about Isaac using the power of the #GoldenSun to bring light back & beat Sephiroth, right? lol Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays pic.twitter.com/4thl2bP7BK

— SonicLink125 ☀️ (@SonicLink125) December 25, 2020

Imagine if Isaac was next and did this in his trailer. That’d be awesome!

Merry Christmas everyone! And Happy Holidays!

 

[LinkStrife]

Christmas is about Isaac using the power of the #GoldenSun to bring light back & beat Sephiroth, right? lol Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays pic.twitter.com/4thl2bP7BK

— SonicLink125 ☀️ (@SonicLink125) December 25, 2020

Imagine if Isaac was next and did this in his trailer. That’d be awesome!

Merry Christmas everyone! And Happy Holidays!

This is a very cool idea!

What if Isaac beats Dharkon by releasing the Golden Sun? And at the end of the trailer, you see the Wise One with Alex, and Month Aleph crumbling?

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Hey guys. I'm live on "A New Podcast Approaches" right now if anyone is interested
Here's the link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhNrt1D0XT0
Also here's something fun I cooked up for IsaacAdepts. Happy Holidays guys!

Santa's bringing it big this year! Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas Adepts. #GoldenSun #IsaacForSmash #BringGoldenSunBack pic.twitter.com/VFR7TB1hfg

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) December 25, 2020

 

[Kalaam]

I doubt we'd see much 3rd parties in Isaac's trailer. As much as I would love to see him fight alongside/with Cloud, I doubt that SE will allow that.
Rathalos is possible tho', capcom is more open to collaborations.

 

[dream1ng]

I doubt we'd see much 3rd parties in Isaac's trailer. As much as I would love to see him fight alongside/with Cloud, I doubt that SE will allow that.
Rathalos is possible tho', capcom is more open to collaborations.

I doubt you're going to see Cloud or Sephiroth in any more CG trailers regardless of the character. They're pretty pricey boys.

Rathalos is a bit of a strange choice considering, even though I understand how you could connect it to GS, it's still a boss who doesn't have an existing CG model. Even Dracula didn't show up in the CG part of the Castlevania trailer... so... I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

 

[TempestSurge]

I lean towards wanting Link in Isaac's trailer since they both solve puzzles and explore dungeons. I would hope for something like Link in a dungeon while occasionally switching to Isaac also exploring the same dungeon (but he'll of course be a dark silhouette) and then something distracts Link or attacks him and Isaac gets his splash reveal, 'Isaac lends a hand!' or whatever not good at the splash screen names lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I lean towards wanting Link in Isaac's trailer since they both solve puzzles and explore dungeons. I would hope for something like Link in a dungeon while occasionally switching to Isaac also exploring the same dungeon (but he'll of course be a dark silhouette) and then something distracts Link or attacks him and Isaac gets his splash reveal, 'Isaac lends a hand!' or whatever not good at the splash screen names lol.

You could also use a reference to Majora's Mask, using Young Link instead. During the bit in Sakon's Hideout, you get to play as Kafei and switch between them. Since it's a puzzle-solving part of the game, it could be worked in. MM is pretty much "Side Quest: The Game", with only Wind Waker coming close to the high amount of sidequests(and the dungeon count isn't too far off either).

 

[NNN]

If there's going to be another first-party character on fighters pass 2, who do you think are the biggest obstacles for Isaac? Rex? Waluigi? Stunfisk?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

If there's going to be another first-party character on fighters pass 2, who do you think are the biggest obstacles for Isaac? Rex? Waluigi? Stunfisk?

I don't really see those characters as competition for Isaac since they're all from different Nintendo IPs, but I could see only one Assist Trophy promotion happening so if Waluigi get's in that probably means Isaac is out for good for this game.

 

[NessAtc.]

If there's going to be another first-party character on fighters pass 2, who do you think are the biggest obstacles for Isaac? Rex? Waluigi? Stunfisk?

There's no "obstacles". Not even other assist trophies. You don't pick Isaac for the same reasons you pick Rex or Waluigi or what have you. Not even based on "muh assist trophy promotion".

The only potential obstacle he had was Geno, and even then that's kind of a stretch considering, again, Isaac's merits are completely different from his.

If they want to add Isaac, they won't arbitrarily decide to or not to based on some assist trophy headcount.

And for the record, I do think there will be two assists promoted this pass. And neither of them will be Waluigi.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

There's no "obstacles". Not even other assist trophies. You don't pick Isaac for the same reasons you pick Rex or Waluigi or what have you. Not even based on "muh assist trophy promotion".

The only potential obstacle he had was Geno, and even then that's kind of a stretch considering, again, Isaac's merits are completely different from his.

If they want to add Isaac, they won't arbitrarily decide to or not to based on some assist trophy headcount.

And for the record, I do think there will be two assists promoted this pass. And neither of them will be Waluigi.

Wait a second... How was Geno a obstacle for Isaac and Waluigi isn't? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Wait a second... How was Geno a obstacle for Isaac and Waluigi isn't? That doesn't make any sense.

Geno was an "obstacle" in that they'd cater to similar audiences: Late 20-somethings who've played Nintendo exclusive JRPGs.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Geno was an "obstacle" in that they'd cater to similar audiences: Late 20-somethings who've played Nintendo exclusive JRPGs.

Not really. If that was the case, than Ridley or K. Rool vice versa should have been obstacles for each other since they were both highly requested Nintendo villains. Yet, they both got in back to back.

 

[NessAtc.]

Not really. If that was the case, than Ridley or K. Rool vice versa should have been obstacles for each other since they were both highly requested Nintendo villains. Yet, they both got in back to back.

That's because they wanted to add those specific characters in general. They were specific considerations, rather than a "general idea".

Isaac could have competed with Geno in the sense that they both ranked in the ballot, and it's unlikely that there would be more than one "ballot character" within this pass if there are any at all. But again, this is why I said barely; the difference between Isaac and Geno is completely palpable.

This was more to address the whole idea of Isaac competing with anyone character as frankly ridiculous. It's all about what Nintendo themselves want within the pass, and there's just no way that they take assist trophies as a "status" seriously. With this in mind, all that's standing in Isaac's way is just Nintendo themselves; it's either they want him to push a potential upcoming switch release/ throwing the fans a bone, or they don't want him. There won't be any character getting in "instead" of him.

 

[ZelDan]

I'm not going to say Waluigi or any other AT character is an "obstacle" to Isaac necessarily, that said I have a hard time seeing us getting 2 AT promotions between the final 3 slots here. Is it impossible? No. I just feel that might be a bit too optimistic or hopeful. Even just one AT upgrade is not a certainty afterall; I'm certainly not going to bet on 2 happening with only a few chances left.

 

[NessAtc.]

I'm not going to say Waluigi or any other AT character is an "obstacle" to Isaac necessarily, that said I have a hard time seeing us getting 2 AT promotions between the final 3 slots here. Is it impossible? No. I just feel that might be a bit too optimistic or hopeful. Even just one AT upgrade is not a certainty afterall; I'm certainly not going to bet on 2 happening with only a few chances left.

It's a lot easier to wrap your head around when you discard them being ATs from your mind. For the record, my second candidate is Lyn. So Fire Emblem is easy to justify.

Nintendo doesn't see it as "upgrading assist trophies". They just see it as adding another character, with its own merits and functions within business. So that's how we should see it as well.

 

[SonicLink125]

I lean towards wanting Link in Isaac's trailer since they both solve puzzles and explore dungeons. I would hope for something like Link in a dungeon while occasionally switching to Isaac also exploring the same dungeon (but he'll of course be a dark silhouette) and then something distracts Link or attacks him and Isaac gets his splash reveal, 'Isaac lends a hand!' or whatever not good at the splash screen names lol.

You could also use a reference to Majora's Mask, using Young Link instead. During the bit in Sakon's Hideout, you get to play as Kafei and switch between them. Since it's a puzzle-solving part of the game, it could be worked in. MM is pretty much "Side Quest: The Game", with only Wind Waker coming close to the high amount of sidequests(and the dungeon count isn't too far off either).

Man. Now I want Isaac's trailer to have that. Golden Sun is basically Zelda+Final Fantasy in a simple point of view, but is much deeper than that of course. I am really curious how they will do Isaac's reveal trailer. Whatever it will be, it will be epic!

 

[Pinguino21v]

If there's going to be another first-party character on fighters pass 2, who do you think are the biggest obstacles for Isaac? Rex? Waluigi? Stunfisk?

I was going to say a Zelda rep because I think Zelda is the most likely first party to get a new fighter there. I believe Nintendo is going to end this pass with chill pick and Zelda is so much chill pick.

But Waluigi, by being AT too, is probably the biggest obstacle.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

That's because they wanted to add those specific characters in general. They were specific considerations, rather than a "general idea".

Isaac could have competed with Geno in the sense that they both ranked in the ballot, and it's unlikely that there would be more than one "ballot character" within this pass if there are any at all. But again, this is why I said barely; the difference between Isaac and Geno is completely palpable.

This was more to address the whole idea of Isaac competing with anyone character as frankly ridiculous. It's all about what Nintendo themselves want within the pass, and there's just no way that they take assist trophies as a "status" seriously. With this in mind, all that's standing in Isaac's way is just Nintendo themselves; it's either they want him to push a potential upcoming switch release/ throwing the fans a bone, or they don't want him. There won't be any character getting in "instead" of him.

I mean... Ridley and K. Rool both got in because of their extraordinary performance in the Smash Ballot, so I don't think it's likely that if Isaac and Geno were very close to each other in it and high enough Sakurai would have put in one and not the other knowning their popularity. The only reason they might have both not been included is because of higher ups at Nintendo who didn't see those characters as part of future plans.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I've said this a million times already but Isaac has his own reasons to get in and so does Waluigi and both have nothing to do with the assist trophy. If either one or both get picked it won't be because they purely wanted to fulfil the assist quota strictly. Same goes for Geno too who even would have way different barriers and reasons for inclusion that Isaac would have too

Also I'll again plug the latest of ANPA I guest starred in since I think you guys would really enjoy it

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean... Ridley and K. Rool both got in because of their extraordinary performance in the Smash Ballot, so I don't think it's likely that if Isaac and Geno were very close to each other in it and high enough Sakurai would have put in one and not the other knowning their popularity. The only reason they might have both not been included is because of higher ups at Nintendo who didn't see those characters as part of future plans.

They both did get some notable stuff in context. Geno got a Spirit, which being third party, isn't that easy to secure. Considering we didn't even get a Deluxe Geno Costume, it was likely not that easy to have it more than updated. And reusing it for a new game requires a new license anyway, which is saying something.

Isaac and Golden Sun got a lot of content in Ultimate as is. Multiple Spirits, a new Costume, etc.

Another thing is that high demand might not have been enough. Ridley is obviously going to continue to see use. King K. Rool may see use in a future DKC game, due to being a core villain. Geno's from a game that they at best managed to license to just get a rerelease, and Isaac is from a series that hasn't been getting new games. Geno and Isaac fall under "characters who are unlikely to have a future", which may be part of why the other two were chosen. Ballot votes could be very different like you said too, but there is something else to think on.

The only other thing is a rumor, that Nintendo didn't realize Isaac had actually that much demand as playable, but I'm not so sure that really adds up, since he clearly had a lot of ballot votes either way.

 

[StrawHatX]

I mean... Ridley and K. Rool both got in because of their extraordinary performance in the Smash Ballot, so I don't think it's likely that if Isaac and Geno were very close to each other in it and high enough Sakurai would have put in one and not the other knowning their popularity. The only reason they might have both not been included is because of higher ups at Nintendo who didn't see those characters as part of future plans.

Ridley and K. Rool also likely got in because supposedly we’re getting a Prime Trilogy release for the Switch as well as MP4, AND it’s likely another DKC game is on the way and they can have K. Rool return as the main villain.

The characters being in Smash help promote those games. Geno’s one game is 24 years old and there likely won’t be another Mario RPG game since Nintendo is profiting off Paper Mario and Square has plenty of other RPG’s they’re working on which almost all are on the Switch.

Golden Sun has also been dead for 10 years so unless the rumors and copyrights as of the last 2 years lead to it returning then its hard to see why Sakurai or NoJ would include him despite popularity.

But I guess anything is possible.

 

[WaddleMatt]

For the people who think "they won't upgrade more than one AT", picture a Nintendo meeting in your head...

Can you really imagine these people at the discussions table saying "we can't add him, we already added one Assist Trophy to be upgraded for DLC"?

Do you really think they would give a single **** about something as arbitrary as that?

Honestly, I never believed the AT fan rule because it is so arbitrary, I just can't see why Nintendo would give a single **** about it at all.

 

[TempestSurge]

For the people who think "they won't upgrade more than one AT", picture a Nintendo meeting in your head...

Can you really imagine these people at the discussions table saying "we can't add him, we already added one Assist Trophy to be upgraded for DLC"?

Do you really think they would give a single **** about something as arbitrary as that?

Honestly, I never believed the AT fan rule because it is so arbitrary, I just can't see why Nintendo would give a single **** about it at all.

This is also the same company who added four FE characters to a single game back in Smash 4 (two newcomers/two DLC) and continued to add more in Ultimate despite the fandom's ire, even Byleth's trailer mocked the swordsman argument. Nothing will stop Nintendo from adding who they want to add. They have no rules.

 

[Nazyrus]

It's a lot easier to wrap your head around when you discard them being ATs from your mind. For the record, my second candidate is Lyn. So Fire Emblem is easy to justify.

Nintendo doesn't see it as "upgrading assist trophies". They just see it as adding another character, with its own merits and functions within business. So that's how we should see it as well.

Pretty much. Just like Min min didn't get in for the sake of being a spirit upgrade, she got in because Nintendo already wanted Arms as a fighter but couldn't back then, and then you had the arms developer's own personal wish of adding min min specifically. It wasn't for the sake of upgrading anything, ever, and nothing else will be either.

The only reason we truly talk about upgrades at all is because of the ****ing stupid fan rules that people make and also can't stop moving goalpost lol. They should be ignored, the fan rule should be ignored, ALL of it should be ignored. It's just plain stupid overall.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

For the people who think "they won't upgrade more than one AT", picture a Nintendo meeting in your head...

Can you really imagine these people at the discussions table saying "we can't add him, we already added one Assist Trophy to be upgraded for DLC"?

Do you really think they would give a single **** about something as arbitrary as that?

Honestly, I never believed the AT fan rule because it is so arbitrary, I just can't see why Nintendo would give a single **** about it at all.

You have a point. If they already go with promoting one Assist Trophy, than they shouldn't give a **** about promoting 2.

 

[SPEN18]

tldr: the last sentence

--

Ridley got in because Sakurai finally figured out how to do him right (from a technical point of view). Maybe the ballot was a nudge in that direction, but Ridley would've been in a long time ago if he had no issues with being 'too big' (so I see the ballot as a secondary reason at best).

K. Rool got in because of the ballot, which he probably won.

I actually don't think the potential for future use was a major reason for K. Rool getting in. If he won (or got close to winning) the ballot as a first-party character, then he probably would've been chosen regardless of being a DK character who could hypothetically reappear. I mean, he was probably even seen as a left-field pick in Nintendo's perspective and they know that adding him to Smash is no obligation to make a new game with him in it. If the DKC team wants an original villain in their game, then I doubt that Nintendo would force K. Rool on them just because 'muh, he's in Smash' (to be clear, being in Smash could help significantly but the bigger point is that K. Rool being in Smash doesn't guarantee his future use).

--

The 'future use' argument feels like an argument sprung from hindsight: 'oh, this character is in Smash now, so Nintendo must have plans to use them in some way.' But this is not always true (even though it is, admittedly, in a large number of cases).

Isaac probably has just as good a chance (or better) of being in a new Switch game as K. Rool or Banjo or a number of the other third parties that are either in the game or considered as strong candidates.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The "future use" argument is something Sakurai hard said when deciding rosters, when explaining Smash 4.

It actually makes sense in this case why many were cut in that game, and why some don't appear in Ultimate. We wouldn't know Isaac was not playable till later on, which the only time one can look at that as a possible reason. No kidding it relates to hindsight. When else would anyone even think of it as a possible reason?

3rd Parties were never really noted in proper context with "future use" anyway. They got in on different merits unrelated to having future games. K. Rool has a very high chance of being in new games too, since the series is massively ongoing. In addition, 3rd parties are often highly iconic or part of a unique situation. Banjo & Kazooie got in due to massive ballot requests and their iconic nature. I love Isaac and all, but he's not part of the major icons either way.

Are we still going with this ridiculous idea of "winning the ballot"? Let it go. The ballot was nothing more than a suggestion box with tons of winners. Everybody that got something in Ultimate due to the ballot is an actual winner. Ridley absolutely got in due to the ballot. Calling it a secondary reason is silly. That's actually been stated as the primary reason he did so. It's because of that he had enough incentive to actually make a proper moveset, as "too big" and "makes more sense as a boss-like character" is why Sakurai didn't bother with him beforehand. We already know there's a lot who got in due to the ballot; both Belmonts, Ridley, King K. Rool, and some who are implied like Chrom and Dark Samus(Daisy pretty much can be thrown in here, since fan requests makes a lot of sense), and never mind it being a part of why Isabelle was an easy choice, due to massive fan requests due to her being a hyper popular mascot and a new gaming icon by that point.

Another example of a Banjo & Kazooie situation would be Sephiroth. They're both rather big gaming icons(though there's no denying you'll of course have people who never heard of them. They're the same level as Ryu and MegaMan. Fairly well known, but not massive in the same way Mario, Pac-Man, Sonic, and Steve are), and got in due to their own merits. Sephiroth may have even had a strong amount of requests, but we don't really know if that was related.

 

[Monue]

The "future use" argument is something Sakurai hard said when deciding rosters, when explaining Smash 4.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point you're trying to make, but this seems like a strange take, Smash 4 was a completely different game and Sakurai was the one making most of the decisions then. If it was ever an explanation for anything, it's likely now defunct. Nintendo is calling the shots, Sakuai's essentially handed the reigns off to them and is only deciding whether or not it's possible for him to do. Like myself and others have been saying, Nintendo is going to do what they want to do, and that's pretty much all that needs to be said about it.

The ballot is likely a moderate consideration, but not a solid explanation, for any future character's inclusion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is a strange take, Smash 4 was a completely different game and Sakurai was the one making most of the decisions then. If it was ever an explanation for anything, it's likely now defunct. Nintendo is calling the shots, Sakuai's essentially handed the reigns off to them and is only deciding whether or not it's possible for him to do. Like myself and others have been saying, Nintendo is going to do what they want to do, and that's pretty much all that needs to be said about it.

The ballot is likely a moderate consideration, but not a solid explanation, for any future character's inclusion.

Nintendo is only calling the shots for the Fighter’s Pass. They were never in charge of the base roster or PP. Sakurai also made it clear he could’ve said no to any FP character. Stuff like future use does matter for base game, but never proven to actually matter to 3rd parties.

Frankly, Ridley needed the ballot to hard convince Sakurai. He wouldn’t have noted it’s the reason he got in if it wasn’t majorly important. The ballot is known for playing a rather big role in Ultimate to begin with. “Moderate” is quite inaccurate.

 

[Monue]

Nintendo is only calling the shots for the Fighter’s Pass. They were never in charge of the base roster or PP. Sakurai also made it clear he could’ve said no to any FP character. Stuff like future use does matter for base game, but never proven to actually matter to 3rd parties.

Frankly, Ridley needed the ballot to hard convince Sakurai. He wouldn’t have noted it’s the reason he got in if it wasn’t majorly important. The ballot is known for playing a rather big role in Ultimate to begin with. “Moderate” is quite inaccurate.

To be fair, I figured we were talking about the Fighter's Pass, and I was referring to future characters in Smash and the ballot, not the base game. I think my statement stands for future characters. I'm a little confused why we're arguing about the base game, the base game is over and done with. It has no impact on whether or not Isaac can still get in.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, I figured we were talking about the Fighter's Pass, and I was referring to future characters in Smash and the ballot, not the base game. I think my statement stands for future characters. I'm a little confused why we're arguing about the base game, the base game is over and done with. It has no impact on whether or not Isaac can still get in.

In context I was always talking about both.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Monue]

In context I was always talking about both.

Sorry for the confusion.

Aren't we right back to, "Isaac did well on the ballot, confirmed by negative fan reaction to his inclusion as an Assist, and Nintendo is calling the shots now for the pass," then? So if they want Isaac, they're gonna have Isaac, whether or not he has any future (which he seems likely to have).

Regarding ultimate, Sakurai has said nothing about a "future use" rule. All he's said is Nintendo is now calling the shots, and he figures whether or not he can make a fun character. That's all he's said on the subject for this game/the pass.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Aren't we right back to, "Isaac did well on the ballot, confirmed by negative fan reaction to his inclusion as an Assist, and Nintendo is calling the shots now for the pass," then? So if they want Isaac, they're gonna have Isaac, whether or not he has any future (which he seems likely to have).

Regarding ultimate, Sakurai has said nothing about a "future use" rule. All he's said is Nintendo is now calling the shots, and he figures whether or not he can make a fun character. That's all he's said on the subject for this game/the pass.

“Future use” is actually a guideline he’s used for all the games, not just 4. Again, I was talking about why he wasn’t in the base roster and why he’s also not in a Banjo & Kazooie situation. They have very different context, especially as Sakurai chose Isaac as not playable while Nintendo chose B&K in different parts of the roster creation.

Golden Sun’s IP not being used is about the only thing hurting possible Isaac DLC, that said. Banjo-Kazooie is directly being used, just not for new games. It’s why the comparisons always fell flat. They’re definitely not in the same situation for DLC. Isaac being first party helps a lot, though.

 

[Monue]

“Future use” is actually a guideline he’s used for all the games, not just 4. Again, I was talking about why he wasn’t in the base roster and why he’s also not in a Banjo & Kazooie situation. They have very different context, especially as Sakurai chose Isaac as not playable while Nintendo chose B&K in different parts of the roster creation.

Golden Sun’s IP not being used is about the only thing hurting possible Isaac DLC, that said. Banjo-Kazooie is directly being used, just not for new games. It’s why the comparisons always fell flat. They’re definitely not in the same situation for DLC. Isaac being first party helps a lot, though.

Hey, I haven't seen ROB showing up anywhere recently! There's a few retro characters that have no future or very little future, and certainly hadn't had any during their debut. Ice Climbers, for example.

Be that as it may, even if we assume that, there's still all that Golden Sun IP business and the (steadily) increasing likelihood of a remaster.