Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[Bane84]

Just thinking a bit realistically here: while I'd love to see Isaac be promoted to a fully playable character, there's still the chance that if there's a new Golden Sun game for Switch announced, he could receive the "Paper Mario treatment" that happened recently where there's a spirit event to go along with the new game.

 

[SharkLord]

Just thinking a bit realistically here: while I'd love to see Isaac be promoted to a fully playable character, there's still the chance that if there's a new Golden Sun game for Switch announced, he could receive the "Paper Mario treatment" that happened recently where there's a spirit event to go along with the new game.

That's possible, but so far the only remakes who have gotten a proper Spirit Event are Link's Awakening and Trials of Mana, the latter of which wasn't even represented before then. Assuming the remake doesn't have any new major players, I don't see the remake Spirits being any different than the original ones.

 

[Xenigma]

I also highly doubt the “limelight” argument. So far every dlc character has had a dedicated presentation highlighting the character, as well as their full gaming history. So no matter what, every dlc gets the limelight of a presentation.

I'm not sure you're understanding the point: it's not about focus, it's about exposure. A Smash Direct is watched by, well, Smash fans. A Nintendo Direct is watched by everyone interested in Nintendo, and thus gets substantially more viewership. If you're a third party lending your character to Smash, it only makes sense to want as many people to hear about that as possible, not simply those already looking for Smash characters. I do agree it would be somewhat surprising for a third party originally planned for E3 to have stayed a secret for three extra months, but leaks aren't inevitable (IIRC Joker stayed secret, for instance), and I do believe a major third-party would help explain why a Smash announcement has been delayed this long instead of simply doing a dedicated FP7 reveal stream.

Kind of a random aside, but there's one bit of recent non-Smash information that has guided my thought process of late. I've long been on the mailing for Evergate, one of the games that was released after last month's Indie World Showcase. When they sent out a message to fans shortly after the presentation, they noted that they had been selected to be part of that presentation in June, roughly two months prior. That also implies that they had been discussing a potential Direct slot, as well as the possibility of launching alongside said Direct, even earlier. None of this is necessarily surprising, but it confirmed what I think we all ought to expect: the contents of these Directs are planned well in advance, and their importance is such that even release dates can be affected by them. No wonder, then, that FP7 has remained a mystery for so long when it got (presumably) bumped from an E3 reveal to, at best, a September Direct reveal. Maybe it's because it's tied to a game reveal (as we're certainly hoping), or maybe it's a third party character, or maybe Nintendo simply wants to ensure Smash fans will keep watching every Direct. Whatever the reason, it seems unlikely we'll hear about FP7 anywhere other than a major Direct at this rate, for better or worse.

 

[jweb23]

I'm not sure you're understanding the point: it's not about focus, it's about exposure. A Smash Direct is watched by, well, Smash fans. A Nintendo Direct is watched by everyone interested in Nintendo, and thus gets substantially more viewership. If you're a third party lending your character to Smash, it only makes sense to want as many people to hear about that as possible, not simply those already looking for Smash characters.

I understand the point you’re making. I’m just saying third party announcements in Smash are all over the place. The Belmonts got a dedicated Smash direct, Joker got the Game Awards and the others (Terry, Banjo and DQ) got general directs. And out of all of them, Dragon Quest, which happened to start the e3 direct, was the only one to get their main series game on the Switch around the time of their character’s release.

Most of these third parties are not promoting anything, so it’s hard to say they want the limelight for their character. BUT...considering Dragon Quest 11 got a featured spot at e3 for Nintendo, it’s possible the same could happen with a third party being CP7. However as you also pointed out, I find it difficult to believe a third party company would delay their game announcement for a Smash reveal. Of course I’m not saying it’s impossible for that to be the case, I just feel like it’s unlikely but this pandemic has caused many strange things.

 

[NessAtc.]

If I recall correctly, the June 2018 trademark for Golden Sun was filed alongside "Wrecking Crew", "Mario Sluggers", and "Rhythm Heaven". I have no clue what the status of those trademarks are.

As an aside, Arcade Archives Vs Wrecking Crew was planned to come out even back then, and it only just got released back in May. The trademark was almost certainly for that.

 

[SonicLink125]

The more time keeps passing, the more I keep thinking that FP7 is a 1st Party Character. Golden Sun + Isaac announcement just makes so much sense in this situation. However, it’s not a guarantee sadly. (Please, Sakurai/Nintendo! Just give me Isaac! He is the final character I need!)

Regardless, September is finally here. I’m hoping we are finally getting a Direct soon.

 

[Monue]

Well, in the interest of livening up discussion since we're faced, once again, with nothing really to discuss: I'm curious how people think the community at large will react to Isaac's reveal for a few reasons:

• He's a character that has been loooong requested, with a fanbase many of whom's support dates back over a decade.
• He's also a "generic anime protag" and "swordie", and those have in recent years been met with disdain by parts of the community - it's never just been Fire Emblem characters, they were saying it about Cloud, Shulk, and Hero as well.
• In general, I've often seen him as a mid-tier requested character, what I mean is; he has a long dedicated fan base, but he's often peripherally on people's "lists" as well, which is somehow both positive and negative.
• He's also always had a fan base most people view as "rather chill," and I've seen many who don't want him still be supportive and positive of the people who do.
• He's also from a franchise that most people that are not fans view as dead, low priority, and merely an "also-ran" to Nintendo's catalogue at large, but even JRPGs in general. Unlike, say, Final Fantasy, who you can not be a fan of but are likely to still know, Golden Sun has heavily fallen off the radar against a plethora of new and exciting jrpgs these days. This, of course, is primarily due to the fact that there hasn't been a game in years, but the fact remains.

So he's in a weird spot, I feel! This isn't meant to be a negative conversation really, it's more just an attempt to sate my curiosity and see how people feel. I wish I could do a poll that a lot of non or non-main Isaac supporters would actually take somewhere. I'd love to know if I should expect a mostly positive, or mostly negative reaction about an Isaac reveal.

 

[Pinguino21v]

Well, in the interest of livening up discussion since we're faced, once again, with nothing really to discuss: I'm curious how people think the community at large

Isaac is the eternal second fiddle: always present, always near the top, but never the first pick.

When he will be added, the general community will probably be glad with it, saying "yes, he is a long awaited character, he deserves it" but without expressing massive joy. Just a cordial agreement.

 

[TempestSurge]

Back in 2018, in the beginning of the Golden Sun trademark saga. So many people were expressing their excitement over Golden Sun to the point it managed to trend. There are tons of people who are nostalgic of Golden Sun but since the series hasn't had a release in so long, it's just considered dead and most don't see it coming back so it's not as talked about.

Then there's the reactions to Isaac being an assist. As Nazyrus mentioned someone who actually is one of our own! WaddleMatt edited together an entire video of the disappointed fans. I think on the whole Isaac will have a positive reception akin to Ridley, Krool, and Banjo and he'll be one of those hype reveals. Or at the very least I don't expect people to react as negatively as Hero and Byleth's reveal lol.

 

[WaddleMatt]

someone edited together an entire video of the disappointed fans.

That, someone, was me And you can expect me to do another one if Isaac gets in!

 

[TempestSurge]

That, someone, was me And you can expect me to do another one if Isaac gets in!

I was just thinking how awesome it'd be to see those same reactors go nuts over an Isaac reveal lol. On another note I forgot about MightyKeef's reaction. We may even get a skit from him if Golden Sun gets a game reveal, who knows hah.

 

[Nazyrus]

Back in 2018, in the beginning of the Golden Sun trademark saga. So many people were expressing their excitement over Golden Sun to the point it managed to trend. There are tons of people who are nostalgic of Golden Sun but since the series hasn't had a release in so long, it's just considered dead and most don't see it coming back so it's not as talked about.

Then there's the reactions to Isaac being an assist. As Nazyrus mentioned someone who actually is one of our own! WaddleMatt edited together an entire video of the disappointed fans. I think on the whole Isaac will have a positive reception akin to Ridley, Krool, and Banjo and he'll be one of those hype reveals. Or at the very least I don't expect people to react as negatively as Hero and Byleth's reveal lol.

It won't be negative for sure, not by a majority anyway, haters are all over the place for every damn character out there lol, even Banjo. He isn't a FE character so definitely won't be a byleth type of reaction, specially when Isaac does like 90% everything psynergy and barely use his sword at all lol. Hero got negative reactions? I must have missed that, I only know it wasn't hype for the west but since banjo was shown in the same presentation that balanced it out right away.

Forgot to say, but even non GS fans were like "come on " when isaac was shown as an AT, so even some non GS fans would be happy to see it actually happen I feel like.

 

[TempestSurge]

It won't be negative for sure, not by a majority anyway, haters are all over the place for every damn character out there lol, even Banjo. He isn't a FE character so definitely won't be a byleth type of reaction, specially when Isaac does like 90% everything psynergy and barely use his sword at all lol. Hero got negative reactions? I must have missed that, I only know it wasn't hype for the west but since banjo was shown in the same presentation that balanced it out right away.

Yeah not hype was probably a better way to word that. Should have specified west specifically of course, Dragon Quest not being as popular over here compared to the east. Though even in that case, some reactions were just second hand embarrassment, acting entitled or like no one wanted the character at all. Feels like it was the first time a character reveal compilation was made majority from fans from overseas cause of how lackluster most reactions from the west side were. Anyways, yeah can't foresee see that happening with Isaac at all.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

An interesting point was raised in the general thread. Sakurai doesn't always know what's coming in advance, which is why we git stuff like Math still using his Melee design in Brawl over his new Shadow Dragon look, and Samus still used her Other M design instead of the one from Samus Returns. While I'm still confident in Isaac as a potential Banjo-analogue, it makes me wonder if he'll stick with his classic design, the potential remake's look, or a new design entirely.

If he gets to play an early version of the remake, it's gonna be the remake design, if not, he'll keep the classic one.

And personally I believe that Monolith never gave an early version of XC2 to Sakurai so it made Rex's possibilities even lower back then.

 

[Kalaam]

I guess a lot of people reaction's to Isaac would be the same I had with Hero. "Oh, well that makes sense, should have been there for a while now."

 

[Cadillac]

Well in here he might get negative reactions, since he's practically unknown and can be considered another 'protagonist with sword'.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Well, in the interest of livening up discussion since we're faced, once again, with nothing really to discuss: I'm curious how people think the community at large will react to Isaac's reveal for a few reasons:

• He's a character that has been loooong requested, with a fanbase many of whom's support dates back over a decade.
• He's also a "generic anime protag" and "swordie", and those have in recent years been met with disdain by parts of the community - it's never just been Fire Emblem characters, they were saying it about Cloud, Shulk, and Hero as well.
• In general, I've often seen him as a mid-tier requested character, what I mean is; he has a long dedicated fan base, but he's often peripherally on people's "lists" as well, which is somehow both positive and negative.
• He's also always had a fan base most people view as "rather chill," and I've seen many who don't want him still be supportive and positive of the people who do.
• He's also from a franchise that most people that are not fans view as dead, low priority, and merely an "also-ran" to Nintendo's catalogue at large, but even JRPGs in general. Unlike, say, Final Fantasy, who you can not be a fan of but are likely to still know, Golden Sun has heavily fallen off the radar against a plethora of new and exciting jrpgs these days. This, of course, is primarily due to the fact that there hasn't been a game in years, but the fact remains.

So he's in a weird spot, I feel! This isn't meant to be a negative conversation really, it's more just an attempt to sate my curiosity and see how people feel. I wish I could do a poll that a lot of non or non-main Isaac supporters would actually take somewhere. I'd love to know if I should expect a mostly positive, or mostly negative reaction about an Isaac reveal.

I think his reaction will be fairly positive. Even if people don't support him, I think most of the community is aware that Golden Sun is a cult classic to a lot of people and he's been in demand for a long time. At the very least I think that will take the edge off any potential negative reaction.

Gamefaqs will probably be upset but then who cares? They're probably upset at most characters that get in...

Although to be fair, the only real negative reaction I can think of in terms of dlc for Ultimate was Byleth. (although I guess Piranha Plant didn't have the best initial reaction either) I didn't notice anything significant for Hero. I feel like people grumble about sword wielders but they get full blown upset about characters who are from Fire Emblem.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

There's enough of a wide enough fanbase requesting Isaac that the positive reactions would significantly overshadow the negative ones I feel. He has potential for a really interesting moveset that will win people over and at the very least raise the interest for more people to try out the Golden Sun games and even create a huge turnout of new fans which is more than worth it

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I also like to think the Shovel Knight community will be happy about their guy being a part of Isaacs final smash.

 

[Billybae10K]

I'll just fuel all the positive reactions to drown out the negativity, we got this~!

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

And no Mario Golf in site, things are looking pretty good for Golden Sun right now adepts, here's hoping 🙏 https://t.co/LY7Fjywp8w

— Isaac's Allied Adepts ☀️ #GoldenSunday (@IsaacAdepts) September 3, 2020

The Mario direct was just shadowdropped and what do you know there is no Mario Golf at all. Considering this shows games releasing in 2021 this could potentially be a huge boost for us

 

[Billybae10K]

I'd say this is an official death sentence for Mario Golf. About as dead as Galaxy 2, according to that Direct.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I'd say this is an official death sentence for Mario Golf. About as dead as Galaxy 2, according to that Direct.

I was considering maybe picking up Galaxy 2 but that game being excluded is a turn off for me buying it full price tbh

 

[Billybae10K]

I was considering maybe picking up Galaxy 2 but that game being excluded is a turn off for me buying it full price tbh

Well, it's either full price or not at all, given it's a limited release for the next six months (Thank you Nintendo for being anti-consumer for lower income households).

 

[SPEN18]

so the 'Mario All-Stars' trademark or whatever it was that people were speculating about didn't end up being for a Mario Sports game at all
I chuckled when I saw that title on the 3D collection

 

[Guynamednelson]

I have a gut feeling this collection of remasters is only gonna focus on platformers.

Called it. Yeah I know I'm not really special for thinking only the 3D platformers would get remastered, I just remembered I posted this in this thread.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

so the 'Mario All-Stars' trademark or whatever it was that people were speculating about didn't end up being for a Mario Sports game at all
I chuckled when I saw that title on the 3D collection

Actually Mario 35 was a Twitter account, there was no crazy speculation about a Mario All Stars trademark. The term Mario Sports was recently filed as a trademark so if that's going to come as a game it's going to be a while from now

 

[SPEN18]

there was no crazy speculation about a Mario All Stars trademark. The term Mario Sports was recently filed as a trademark so if that's going to come as a game it's going to be a while from now

oh, got it.
I knew about the Mario 35th Twitter, but must have been remembering incorrectly about the Mario Sports stuff.

 

[Bassoonist]

I'd say this is an official death sentence for Mario Golf.

Not necessarily. The pandemic has made things complicated. We don't know what all was meant to be released late this year. I can't see this being all that we were supposed to get.

A Mario Golf could most certainly be in development, just its development has been slowed by the pandemic. Notice that almost every single title announced in the Mario direct were ports, not new games. Mario Kart being the only new one. So Mario Golf is most certainly not down and out.

 

[Billybae10K]

Not necessarily. The pandemic has made things complicated. We don't know what all was meant to be released late this year. I can't see this being all that we were supposed to get.

A Mario Golf could most certainly be in development, just its development has been slowed by the pandemic. Notice that almost every single title announced in the Mario direct were ports, not new games. Mario Kart being the only new one. So Mario Golf is most certainly not down and out.

I heavily disagree. Given what we know of Camelot's game practices, they'd have been working on Golf since the end of 2018 - They only work on one game at a time, and we know that Mario Sports games take around two years to develop. They'd have had at least fifteen/sixteen months of development time completely unaffected by the Corona Virus, more than enough time to create something close to completion like golf.

It would have been very likely that Golf would be shown, if it were happening/developed by Camelot, based on the timeline alone. Covid definitely affected Nintendo, but in Camelot's case, they've had quite some time before the virus hit, working on whatever game's on their radar.

 

[ZelDan]

I also like to think the Shovel Knight community will be happy about their guy being a part of Isaacs final smash.

See, this is really why I want Isaac. Him and Shovel have both been my most wanteds for Smash Ultimate, so getting Isaac is really like getting TWO most wanteds for me!

 

[NessAtc.]

not only is there no Mario Golf, there's no Mario sports in general for the foreseeable future.

As for "covid affected things" as billy said, Camelot had been working unhindered since at least March 2018, and at most December 2017, which is more than enough time to get something like that ready in time for this presentation. As well, this direct covered EVERYTHING Mario coming out from now until Spring 2021. Even with covid, there's no way that a Mario Golf game made for over two years wouldn't be ready to be at least CONFIRMED for spring 2021.


"almost every single thing was a port, aside from the one brand new game"

It's alright to be skeptical, but this is kinda a bit much

Plus that wasn't even the only new game, Mario 35 happened too

 

[Nazyrus]

I'd say this is an official death sentence for Mario Golf. About as dead as Galaxy 2, according to that Direct.

More like an extra final nail to its coffin, as far as being the next game, that is. Golf is most definitely not happening any time soon.

Not necessarily. The pandemic has made things complicated. We don't know what all was meant to be released late this year. I can't see this being all that we were supposed to get.

A Mario Golf could most certainly be in development, just its development has been slowed by the pandemic. Notice that almost every single title announced in the Mario direct were ports, not new games. Mario Kart being the only new one. So Mario Golf is most certainly not down and out.

Mario golf as the "next" camelot game, has been dead since the start. My NoA source told me last December that it wasn't even a thing in development, and early this year Nate came in to say "never had a chance" as if what my source said last year wasn't enough. And on top of that, NoA source tells me this April, weeks after the approval of the 2018 GS trademark, that GS HD is a thing. There's also not even a new trademark for a new title for Golf lol. At best there is a Mario Sports trademark that just appeared recently (not approved, just recently filed in, no process made yet) which , as we know, could be either a collaboration by Camelot and namco again (superstars) , or made entirely by someone else like Sports Mix was made by Square Enix, either way the Sports trademark isn't gonna be coming aaaany time soon, they must be in early production of it at best when that new trademark for it was filed. Camelot has been working already on something since they left Aces. Golf isn't coming next, never was. They won't make another Tennis game in a row after Aces, they never do that. The math is simple at the end, Golden Sun, and it's the one thing that has legal evidence behind it to support it happening as well, aside from the fact also my NoA source told me it is coming, lol.
I have shared this before, both here and on the GS server.

 

[SharkLord]

I don't want to get too wrapped up in the hype, but we got some re-releases of varying updates, events for Smash and Splatoon (So much for the FinalFest), a bloody Mario battle royale, and an augmented reality Mario Kart. If we were to get something from Mario Golf, I feel like it would be here.

 

[Monue]

So from what I understand about these potential Golden Sun games is that they're likely to be built from the ground up, right? We're not getting a rerelease of the old games or just updated graphics, it's going to be less like these 35th Mario games, and more like, what was it, Link's Awakening I think?

How intense of a remake are we expecting here? Is there the potential for voice acting like Fire Emblem has been doing lately? Is it going to remain simple and focus on keeping the subtle charm of the originals, kind of like Link's Awakening? New game play elements? Is it going to be a full on Final Fantasy 7 style remake like my heart wants so dearly? Should I expect a $20/$30 venture here, or a full on $60 game?

I know that no one really knows, but I'd love to hear what we're expecting.

 

[NessAtc.]

So from what I understand about these potential Golden Sun games is that they're likely to be built from the ground up, right? We're not getting a rerelease of the old games or just updated graphics, it's going to be less like these 35th Mario games, and more like, what was it, Link's Awakening I think?

How intense of a remake are we expecting here? Is there the potential for voice acting like Fire Emblem has been doing lately? Is it going to remain simple and focus on keeping the subtle charm of the originals, kind of like Link's Awakening? New game play elements? Is it going to be a full on Final Fantasy 7 style remake like my heart wants so dearly? Should I expect a $20/$30 venture here, or a full on $60 game?

I know that no one really knows, but I'd love to hear what we're expecting.

I would expect a full price game. The games will be both together, so that's at least reasonable, but beyond that I don't know what else we should expect.

 

[FlawedAI]

So from what I understand about these potential Golden Sun games is that they're likely to be built from the ground up, right? We're not getting a rerelease of the old games or just updated graphics, it's going to be less like these 35th Mario games, and more like, what was it, Link's Awakening I think?

How intense of a remake are we expecting here? Is there the potential for voice acting like Fire Emblem has been doing lately? Is it going to remain simple and focus on keeping the subtle charm of the originals, kind of like Link's Awakening? New game play elements? Is it going to be a full on Final Fantasy 7 style remake like my heart wants so dearly? Should I expect a $20/$30 venture here, or a full on $60 game?

I know that no one really knows, but I'd love to hear what we're expecting.

We don't know anything for certain about the games, but we can hypothesize, and here's what I think:

It'll be a remake of the fist two games, TBS and TLA. They'll be updated with modern graphics (2D or 3D, don't know which) and some bug fixes as well as merging the two stories seamlessly, as was originally intended. Voice acting is a possibility, but I believe it to be unlikely outside of grunts and maybe cutscenes. Camelot's iconic beeping for characters speaking is something I expect to return. As for art style, I'm thinking it'll be like the art done for the first two games, anime with a noticeable Western tinge that permeates through the game. I'd imagine (and I hope) that the gameplay isn't touched, the turn-based RPG is a genre that's held up quite well and Nintendo doesn't have a first-party traditional turn-based RPG franchise that's active right now. Golden Sun would be that for Nintendo. As for price, it'll be $60 USD, no way it isn't. If Nintendo will charge $60 for DKC Tropical Freeze, they'll charge $60 for a full remake of two games. I think it'll be well worth it, but I also expect some whiners on Twitter about it.

Based on the Dark Dawn trademark, we might also see a Dark Dawn + GS4 game i the future, especially if the GS1+2 Remake does well. It would still have to be a remake and not a remaster, transferring the DS' unique touch controls to the Switch is too daunting a task for a simple remaster. I think Dark Dawn could also get released in its own (maybe Nintendo commissioned DD after Camelot wrapped up GS1+2 HD and is waiting on sales to commission a 4th game?) like it was on the DS and then a GS4 would come out later that would complete the story.

That's all just my opinion based on what I think would be feasible for Camelot and Nintendo. I really don't think the game will be all that different from the originals (in fact I hope it isn't) but as long as they touch up a few things they really don't need to change much.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The Mario Direct was good.

 

[Nazyrus]

So from what I understand about these potential Golden Sun games is that they're likely to be built from the ground up, right? We're not getting a rerelease of the old games or just updated graphics, it's going to be less like these 35th Mario games, and more like, what was it, Link's Awakening I think?

How intense of a remake are we expecting here? Is there the potential for voice acting like Fire Emblem has been doing lately? Is it going to remain simple and focus on keeping the subtle charm of the originals, kind of like Link's Awakening? New game play elements? Is it going to be a full on Final Fantasy 7 style remake like my heart wants so dearly? Should I expect a $20/$30 venture here, or a full on $60 game?

I know that no one really knows, but I'd love to hear what we're expecting.

Yes, 1:1 ports wouldn't even require a new trademarks, NSO ports don't even get those new things, they use the ones that already exist. And it would be from the ground up yes, after all you don't remaster a sprite game lol, you remake it, and 3D is what Nintendo is mostly focusing these days, certainly Camelot too since they made Dark Dawn. Link's awakening is a perfect example, yes, where they took a sprite game and brought it back in 3D (obviously we are not getting clay golden sun lol… )

How intense… well… All I know, as we all do, is that Camelot never goes lazy and they have stated before that they wouldn't go lazy on GS ever, They always push the limits of the consoles they put their games on, like how Dark Dawn was one of the best looking games on the DS for example, and even the original GS games were pretty damn good looking for GBA games. I would say … they won't want to disappoint on this, it's how I would put it. I don't know what scale or intensity is going to be, but they like quality for sure.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

(obviously we are not getting clay golden sun lol… )

The in-game sprites would look beautiful in clay form.