Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[NessAtc.]

The only character that got in due to advertisement reasons was a Fire Emblem character. I wouldn't count on that argument helping Isaac.

More like, it happened to be a Fire Emblem character again. I'm sure any game in it's exact position likely would have gotten it as well.

 

[N3ON]

Fighter Pass 2 will also feature stages and music.

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) January 16, 2020

This definitely helps Isaac's case more than Waluigi. Waluigi doesn't have much to offer in terms of songs compared to Isaac and if we also are getting DLC spirits Golden Sun has more to offer than a singular character from a series that alread has a ton of spirits. Personally I think Waluigi is being saved as the big hook of Smash 6

Fwiw I don't think needing a stage and music is a dealbreaker for any character. Obviously Isaac can offer something from an untapped series, but it's not like you couldn't whip something up for Waluigi either.

 

[NessAtc.]

Fwiw I don't think needing a stage and music is a dealbreaker for any character. Obviously Isaac can offer something from an untapped series, but it's not like you couldn't whip something up for Waluigi either.

Stage sure, the music is more key though. There's not exactly a new Mario game to draw music from at the moment aside from Mario Maker 2.

 

[N3ON]

Stage sure, the music is more key though. There's not exactly a new Mario game to draw music from at the moment aside from Mario Maker 2.

It's not like they exhausted the supply of music from past games.

 

[NessAtc.]

It's not like they exhausted the supply of music from past games.

While that's true, they also aren't going to just add a bunch of Mario songs. If they were going to, they likely would have with Piranha Plant.

 

[N3ON]

While that's true, they also aren't going to just add a bunch of Mario songs. If they were going to, they likely would have with Piranha Plant.

If Sakurai wants to add Waluigi, he's not going to stop because of music. He's going to take music from Mario games that Waluigi is in, presumably that which would work well on Waluigi's stage (even though that's not how music works anymore). FP characters have different obligations than bonus characters, accompanying content-wise.

I agree Isaac works better from a stage and music perspective, being from an unrepresented IP... but it's not like Waluigi faces an insurmountable obstacle.

 

[FlawedAI]

I'm glad to hear that Fighters Pass Vol. 2 will be the exact same setup as Vol. 1: fighter, stage, music, and spirits. All of these conditions could be met by any character, so I don't think it helps or hurts us. People say that Fighters Pass wasn't a "fan demand" pass, but I disagree: at the very least, Hero, Banjo, and Terry fill gaps for regions and fan demands (Hero for Japan, Banjo for the West, and Terry for Latin America). Joker could be a "fan demand" character but that's a stretch, honestly. Byleth is clear Sakurai doing his "**** you, I get my Fire Emblem" pick. I mean, look at Ultimate's base newcomers: Inkling, Ridley, Simon (Richter), King K. Rool, Isabelle, and Incineroar. 3/6 are fan demand characters (Ridley, K. Rool, and Simon). So we have 6/11 unique newcomers as "fan demand" characters, and that's over half. I think Golden Sun's general resurgence as a whole coincided with the finalization of the Fighters Pass 2 characters, and Sakurai and team saw the social media storm following Golden Sun. They had to have, since it was nearly impossible to avoid while following general Smash news.

In conclusion, we are sitting pretty. While Assists might have meant Fighters Pass 1 was not an option, Fighters Pass 2 certainly still is, especially with the vocal and large demand Isaac has gotten (and sustained, that's key here). While other characters seem to rise and fall in popularity (Skull Kid, Sora, Dante, etc.) Isaac's fanbase is still large and vocal. Simply put, we might be in the best position of any character left. First-party, rights are already owned, large fan demand, Assist Trophy means that work wouldn't be entirely from scratch, and the fans were loud at seemingly the right time. The only other contender is Geno, and he has legal issues due to Square Enix (note I still think he'll join, SqEnix is just hard to work with, it seems).

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

It doesn't completely stop Waluigi in his tracks but the circumstances in how these packs are structured fit much more naturally with Isaac than Waluigi. If DLC characters were released in the same way as Smash 4 Waluigi wouldn't have this problem

 

[SPEN18]

Reminder: Ballot is still a thing.

I'd be surprised if anyone other than Isaac is left on the top of that stack.

BUT it depends how much fishing they wanna do

--

Did we get confirmation of who decided the FP2 characters (Sakurai or NoJ again)?

 

[FlawedAI]

Reminder: Ballot is still a thing.

I'd be surprised if anyone other than Isaac is left on the top of that stack.

BUT it depends how much fishing they wanna do

--

Did we get confirmation of who decided the FP2 characters (Sakurai or NoJ again)?

This is my educated guess (as in, not 100% confirmed), but I bet it was the same as FP1: Nintendo gave Sakurai a list of options, and Sakurai narrowed it down to who was "doable" or whatever. In this scenario, we have to bet on the fan demand being enough to reach Sakurai and convince him to add Isaac.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Here's hoping for volume 2. If we don't get fighter 6 in the next mainline direct we are gonna be waiting for a while. That will be agonizing.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Yay we got a fun new Stoic Comic with the Camelot Bros out of this

~Dawn of a New Pass~ #SuperCamelotBros #SmashBros #SmashBrosUltimate #GoldenSun #Waluigi pic.twitter.com/AcV4tr809h

— Stoic Seraphim (@Stoic_Miiverse) January 17, 2020

 

[N3ON]

Here's hoping for volume 2. If we don't get fighter 6 in the next mainline direct we are gonna be waiting for a while. That will be agonizing.

Even more agonizing is it's going to be almost two years until we get our hands on FP11. I mean it hasn't been two years since Ultimate was revealed.

And frankly, paying for something unknown almost two years in advance is a level of shady that even the ****tier game companies don't usually pull. That's part of the reason I buy piecemeal.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Even more agonizing is it's going to be almost two years until we get our hands on FP11. I mean it hasn't been two years since Ultimate was revealed.

And frankly, paying for something unknown almost two years in advance is a level of shady that even the ****tier game companies don't usually pull. That's part of the reason I buy piecemeal.

Well, the only solution then is to wait until all the DLC characters are released and then decide if they are worth your money.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Well, the only solution then is to wait until all the DLC characters are released and then decide if they are worth your money.

That's probably why they start with the more exciting characters and end with the more underwhelming ones. People would want to try them asap and get the pass and might not be too inclined to buy them seperately with hope the follow up characters are just as exciting

 

[Kalaam]

Spoiler: The entire Golden Sun fandom waiting on the fiery throne on passion now that it is all decided

 

[KoopaSaki]

I can't keep shaking that horrible feeling that only one AT promotion is truly possible and that Waluigi is going to get it first before any other AT Promotion gets it. Its just because that Backlash for the purple delinquet has been around since June 2018 and we did not start picking up the momentum with Nintendo until August after that direct and Rathalos tweet and of course that Nov 1st Direct, so I feel that Nintendo is gonna go for Waluigi first cause even Reggie did an article about him and Mario is still a Healthy series. Needless to say, I think a new golden sun game being revealed this year or maybe even next could be our last hope. If Mario Golf gets revealed next direct...... That is gonna be bad.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Reminder: Ballot is still a thing.

I'd be surprised if anyone other than Isaac is left on the top of that stack.

BUT it depends how much fishing they wanna do

--

Did we get confirmation of who decided the FP2 characters (Sakurai or NoJ again)?

Besides Isaac? Geno, Shantae, and Shovel Knight were all top tier Smash Ballot picks underneath Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I can't keep shaking that horrible feeling that only one AT promotion is truly possible and that Waluigi is going to get it first before any other AT Promotion gets it. Its just because that Backlash for the purple delinquet has been around since June 2018 and we did not start picking up the momentum with Nintendo until August after that direct and Rathalos tweet and of course that Nov 1st Direct, so I feel that Nintendo is gonna go for Waluigi first cause even Reggie did an article about him and Mario is still a Healthy series. Needless to say, I think a new golden sun game being revealed this year or maybe even next could be our last hope. If Mario Golf gets revealed next direct...... That is gonna be bad.

Reggie didn't make an article about him. He was asked a question about it in an interview and Washington Post wrote about the fan reactions online. Waluigi definitely has a shot but Isaac's circumstances in getting promoted too are pretty strong. It isn't far fetched to believe Isaac can be the one that gets chosen

 

[SPEN18]

Besides Isaac? Geno, Shantae, and Shovel Knight were all top tier Smash Ballot picks underneath Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie.

This is more my personal feeling/experience, but yes, I'd be quite surprised if any of those three were ahead of Isaac.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

This is more my personal feeling/experience, but yes, I'd be quite surprised if any of those three were ahead of Isaac.

I wouldn't be surprise honestly. There is really no real way to tell who did better than who in the Smash Ballot. Those who got the playable treatment like Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie were perhaps just chosen because they got acknowledge by the man himself. Of course their performances in the Ballot was grand, but we really don't know who did better than who.

 

[Xenigma]

Besides Isaac? Geno, Shantae, and Shovel Knight were all top tier Smash Ballot picks underneath Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo & Kazooie.

We also have to remember that we don't know the ballot results. I know many doubt Sakurai's claim that Bayonetta was the top pick, but she nevertheless serves as a strong reminder that our expectations of the what the ballot results were may be very different from what actually happened. We can make educated guesses based on the content we've gotten in Ultimate, sure, and it may well be the reason Golden Sun got as much content as it did, but we can't assume the ballot will carry us to playable at this point, especially this long after the fact.

One more not-so-positive note: I'm worried about what happens if the next Camelot game is, in fact, Mario Golf. Another non-Golden Sun game pushes our hopes back a good two to three years, and with Fighters Pass Vol. 2 taking upwards of two years to fully release, it would be very difficult to keep up energy for a franchise Nintendo will have seemingly abandoned. Credit to fans like Stoic, Billybo, and everyone who's participated in Golden Sunday for their efforts in reviving the community, but I fear we can only last so long without Nintendo throwing us a bone.

 

[StrawHatX]

So I’m pretty torn on this most recent character reveal. I am a Fire Emblem fan and I loved Three Houses, but I really could have done without another FE rep. Byleth does look fun, but still....

I’m also very confused. I thought when Sakurai announced the first Pass that he introduced the Rex Mii Costume and said they didn’t have enough time to implement him as DLC......but he had enough time for Byleth? XC2 released December 2017 and was in development long before that. FE:3H released summer of 2019.

I think it’s very obvious at this point Sakurai is either a MASSIVE FE fan, or he really loves to cater to the Japanese fanbase’s love for that series.

 

[Kalaam]

Hopefully Byleth is the last massive Sakubias we'll get. Or maybe he planned 6 slots so he can get one more xD

 

[StrawHatX]

Hopefully Byleth is the last massive Sakubias we'll get. Or maybe he planned 6 slots so he can get one more xD

It really wouldn’t shock me. I fully expect a Generation 8 Pokémon in the next pass.

 

[Kalaam]

If we do get a gen8, reactions to Byleth will pale in comparison xD
Given the controversy around SwSh, a gen8 pokemon in dlc is likely to create a big ****storm. And you won't be able to use arguments like "the game got tons of awards" etc.
But we already got a new pokemon in basegame, it would feel annoying that in DLC we get more of the same *again*.

 

[StrawHatX]

If we do get a gen8, reactions to Byleth will pale in comparison xD
Given the controversy around SwSh, a gen8 pokemon in dlc is likely to create a big ****storm. And you won't be able to use arguments like "the game got tons of awards" etc.
But we already got a new pokemon in basegame, it would feel annoying that in DLC we get more of the same *again*.

I don’t see why that would stop them. Sakurai doesn’t seem like the kind of guy that really cares about starting a ****storm in the community. He even poked fun of the “too many swordsmen” complaints in Byleth’s trailer.

Pokémon is the biggest media franchise of all time and SwSh is getting two DLC packs this year. With 6 slots I find it hard to believe one of them won’t be a Pokémon. Despite how much I don’t want that to be the case.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pokémon is the biggest media franchise of all time and SwSh is getting two DLC packs this year. With 6 slots I find it hard to believe one of them won’t be a Pokémon. Despite how much I don’t want that to be the case.

At least look beyond just filling out a generational quota like Incineroar if they insist.

 

[Nazyrus]

Honestly if they go with a pokemon rep that's fine, we have 6 upcoming DLCs so if one of them was pokemon i would just consider next pass as a regular 5 characters pass, lol. Not really a loss to me personally. (and to be honest pokemons at least are unique and not a 4th blue haired dude -cough- lol)

 

[StrawHatX]

Honestly if they go with a pokemon rep that's fine, we have 6 upcoming DLCs so if one of them was pokemon i would just consider next pass as a regular 5 characters pass, lol. Not really a loss to me personally. (and to be honest pokemons at least are unique and not a 4th blue haired dude -cough- lol)

If it’s gonna happen then it’s gonna happen. We’ll all have to just be fine with it. It’s just disappointing to get more fighters from series’ that are overstocked with representation.

Obviously I want Isaac and for Golden Sun to get some spotlight, but even if he didn’t then it’s always refreshing to see something completely new. I have no connection to Rhythm Heaven, but it would still be cool to see that series show up and get attention rather than Pokémon which doesn’t need it.

At the end of the day this is Sakurai’s game and he can do whatever he wants. I get it.

 

[Kalaam]

Well yes and no. It's his game sure, but we are the clients paying for it.
So our own expectations are to be considered. And that's why he said he "wanted to add more fan favorites" in the game with more dlcs.

 

[StrawHatX]

Well yes and no. It's his game sure, but we are the clients paying for it.
So our own expectations are to be considered. And that's why he said he "wanted to add more fan favorites" in the game with more dlcs.

And I do have hope that we will get a few “fan favorites”. I just don’t think that all 6 will be that way. I do think there’s a good chance we’ll get at least one AT promotion. The question though is will it be Waluigi? He’s obviously the most popular mainstream choice. I’d say Isaac is the most popular Smash community choice. And I have bias, but I think you could get so much more from Isaac as a character and bringing in the Golden Sun series as a whole with it’s cast of characters, songs, and unique locations for a stage rather than what you’d get with Waluigi.

I can also see a spirit promotion. And I do believe Rex is the most likely. Sakurai really likes the Xenoblade series and we’re getting XC1 remastered this year so that could go along with it. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rex was actually the first character we got in this next Pass.

Out of the 6 new slots I think Rex is one of them, along with an AT promotion, and a new Pokémon. I do think we’ll get a couple of third parties too.

 

[Organization XIII]

Look at the end of the day if Waluigi was the only one to get removed from AT jail then I would still be happy. At least Sakurai would have shown that ATs aren't a death sentence and the community gets another charger they have been begging for. Obviously is much prefer Isaac but when both options are great outcomes I can't be mad when one happens.

 

[Icana]

Waluigi was born from the Mario sports series (Mario Tennis 64 to be exact) and created by Camelot. I imagine, if he were one of the DLC characters, we'd see a lot of references to those games, and probably get a stage from them, like a gimmick filled tennis court transitioning to a golf course, etc. There's a lot of music to draw from Motoi Sakuraba's work on those games as well that date back to the N64 and GameBoy. His assist trophy holds a tennis racket in reference to that fact, so I imagine that theme will be doubled down on if Waluigi turned into a full fighter for DLC.

As for Isaac's chances, I don't know. I think it really depends on what's going on behind the scenes and if there is interest with Nintendo to push Golden Sun again, as I think Byleth is a result of that overreach of Nintendo wanting to continue to push Fire Emblem (like Dragon Quest), plus Sakurai is clearly a big fan of that series. No shortage of interest within the company to keep Fire Emblem relevant. I also think there is a lot of interest within Nintendo and Monolith Soft to finally turn Shulk's game, the first Xenoblade, into a sales success story. Miyamoto loves his Pikmin and Star Fox characters, so they will remain active in some form to come.

With Golden Sun, the fans for those games arose once more amidst Smash Ult speculation, but beyond Nintendo noticing, is there any interest within asking "hmm, what more can we do with this dormant IP?". Is Camelot interested in investing the time, energy, and absorbing the feedback from previous games, to give their big beloved GBA RPG series the effort it needs to be revived for the new and old generation of gamers?

If Nintendo is finally doing something with Golden Sun behind the scenes, perhaps for round 2 of Smash DLC, Golden Sun content is among the selected IPs Nintendo put forth for Sakurai to consider. This is what we're hoping for at the least, since it would suggest something a bit more substantial with Golden Sun is finally happening. Unfortunately we've got nothing to suggest Sakurai is a fan of these games, so that's another potential barrier blocking our adept's path. His assist trophy only uses basic psynergy. The character dances exteremely well in all our minds with a Venus/Earth based kit, but does Isaac dance in any form in Sakurai's head, so to speak?

Unfortunately, while I think our demand is very present, it's not in the tens of millions. Also, while I STRONGLY believe Golden Sun has the potential to be a big popular franchise, Camelot were not able build on their momentum those many years ago and left the series dormant for too long, and no power at Nintendo seems interested in continuing the series without Camelot and high raw sales numbers.

Look at Donkey Kong Country. Without Rare, the DK family was broken. Donkey Kong Racing for GCN, the next game meant to feature the DK crew, never happened after Rare was gone. DK himself remained relevant thanks to Mario, and his little buddy Diddy showed up from time to time. K. Rool went absent for ages until you guys finally brought him back with Smash.

So Isaac's chances for SP 2 has a lot of factors to consider. I think we did a lot, and did it well in the last year or so. Nintendo knows. But we need help from the inside too. I hope it was there and that someone with a bit of clout inside Nintendo saw opportunity, and was able to help push our dreams through those hurdles we need to jump for our wishes to be a reality.

 

[Kalaam]

Given that Golden Sun got a trademark active since november, it's fair to assume that they do have something planned behind the curtains.
Which do raises Isaac's chances. (also that trademark being approved happened around october/november, so around when Byleth video was done. And FP2 likely finalized. The trademark itself was deposited the year before and got a year before being fully approved. Given how early sakurai got his hands on Byleth, that could align with Isaac or any GS character in FP2.)

 

[THE 6r]

You guys seem super down. Here's some cat videos.

Also, I personally like Byleth. I think that if he were from any series other then FE people wouldn't be so mad, but people are people. 3 Houses is a good game and actually worthy of getting a character in Smash (unlike certain other characters whose names rhyme with "torrin" and "hinmineror"). Besides, this is good because:

1. series that already have stuff in the game for them will be potential DLC.
2. we will get to see what happens with the new music brought by Byleth and where it will be assigned, giving us a reference point for what may happen with Isaac.
3. this means 1st party IP's can be DLC.

 

[Kalaam]

Yeah that's at least 3 positives.
Would have been there regardless of which 1st party was in, but it's still that.
Byleth main issue is just being a somewhat boring conclusion to the pass, especially since by Sakurai's own admission: he was planned before his game even came out. This takes a lot of legitimacy away. Was he added in the 2nd Pass, it wouldn't have been that much of an issue. It would have felt like it was due to merit more than just being here to advertise 3Houses.

 

[Cadillac]

I'm the 'the more the merrier' kind of person, so I wasn't really disappointed about Byleth. I was surprised though.
But if you think about it, TH was a huge success and Byleth was gonna get in anyways. Since they're already in Smash, we can expect a fresh batch of 6 fighters that are not from FE.

 

[Kalaam]

Yeah but planning it before the game was even done feels a bit...wrong. Especially because it doesn't need it.
But yeah at least we won't get another FE character.

 

[StrawHatX]

I am happy that Byleth isn’t just another Marth clone. And thank you Sakurai for not giving him a counter.