Stun Due to Hitting Shield = Starman Stun???

[Druggedfox]

This probably sounds stupid at first glance, but this could be extremely useful for newer falcos to start learning to pillar, and for more advanced falcos to learn to have more advanced pillaring.

So everyone knows that you can't dair/nair+shine pillar against someone's shield as fast as you can in place with no one there; this is obviously because when you hit a shield, there's a bit of extra stun, so you actually have to slow down/delay some of the timings with your shines etc. So my question is this:

If you go to training mode and give your opponent a starman, is the stun from hitting the invincible opponent the same as the stun from hitting the shield? Is it more, is it less? Also, the same question applies to the invincibility frames you gain after you come back from losing a stock.

Shine grab is an avoidable tactic if you start to see it coming, and because you can't do a rising aerial to pillar, opponents can shield grab after the shine but before the aerial if they catch onto your pillaring pattern. So I felt like practice double shine pillaring, and realized this might be a useful way to do it. I've been able to double shine + aerial/grab repeatedly in place for a while, but because things slow down when you actually hit a shield, I'm doing it too fast and I'm not sure what the best way to learn the timing is. If anyone can confirm either the starman or invincibility upon returning from lost stock, that'd be great =D

 

[JPOBS]

the offical term you're looking for is Hitlag

and yes its the same.

 

[Strong Badam]

I believe invincible hitlag is more than shield hitlag. Not sure though.
Additionally, your opponent won't be in hitlag nor shieldstun when you practice doubleshining on an Invincible opponent.

 

[Druggedfox]

Hmm, 1 vote for same, 1 vote for invincible>shield hitlag. Any more thoughts?

 

[Strong Badam]

it's the same. used AR

 

[MattDotZeb]

So it's a viable way to practice. awesome.
Thanks, druggedfox.

 

[Kanelol]

Don't forget that when you're Shield Pressuring an actual shield, they slide back slightly, and there's Shield DI

I'm not contesting Starman isn't a great way to practice, but it's not exactly the same.

 

[Strong Badam]

as far as the timing goes, it will be equivalent. shield DI will take actual experience in matches to get used to.

 

[Druggedfox]

That's how i've been practicing recently to get to super advanced ways, I reallly hope this helps everyone. (Mattdotzeb =D)

Btw everyone, after confirmation from Strong bad (thanks so much for confirming) I immediately tried practicing. I can currently double shine pillar with fox consistently.

Also, a tip for everyone I found out to do with the hitlag. To pillar with fox's dair (haven't tried it with falco, because it's so much easier to short hop with him) if after you press down+b, you smash the control stick up then press down+a, and do the entire motion really fast, you'll consistently shorthop no matter what if you do it fast enough. Normally short hopping with the control stick has to do with a quick flick, but because of the hitlag you can actually just smash it really fast, and it allows you to do a rising dair, hit with all the hits, and have an incredibly easy way to short hop. (Pillaring with x is too slow, y is doable but I've never tried). I figured this out mainly because in training mode you can't use c-stick obviously, which makes it really hard imo to shorthop + dair normally up to speed. This has always forced me to use nair when practicing, but this way might actually be really easy to implement in an actual match. Look out for a double shine pillaring fox =D

 

[SheerMadness]

Well practicing pillaring with Starmen has been known about for a while.

When I started playing competitively back in 05 that's what the Falco boards recommended I practice with. And yes it definitely helps.

 

[Doomblaze]

I prefer 0.5 damage ratio handicap 9 crouching bowser, that way you dont have to wait for the starman to come back.

 

[ArcNatural]

The one thing I would like to confirm that makes the timing different (I believe) between starman and shield is hit location. I think shield makes the timing different simply because where the hitstun occurs is at a different point in the shffl. I don't think it's anything major, having practice with infinite shields with AR has made me more proficient than starman or 0.5 handicap 9 Bowser, could just be mental but that was the case for me.

 

[ZoSo]

I believe invincible hitlag is more than shield hitlag. Not sure though.
Additionally, your opponent won't be in hitlag nor shieldstun when you practice doubleshining on an Invincible opponent.

Hitlag happens against invincible targets.

The one thing I would like to confirm that makes the timing different (I believe) between starman and shield is hit location. I think shield makes the timing different simply because where the hitstun occurs is at a different point in the shffl. I don't think it's anything major, having practice with infinite shields with AR has made me more proficient than starman or 0.5 handicap 9 Bowser, could just be mental but that was the case for me.

Lol, I saw the title of the thread and I was expecting you to be the OP.

 

[Doomblaze]

yea, real shield are the way to go, its just hard if you dont have an AR, and bowser/starman works fine too

PP told me to do the bowser thing, and it helped a bit.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Yeah its the same, this is how I always practice sheild pressure.Except I can't L cancel when I hit a sheild I must hit L too early =/

 

[Druggedfox]

Mkay, well thanks to all who confirmed. As I said, i've only really been using this to practice flashier pressures which may come in handy for someone who tries to aerial out of shield too much, etc. Double shine turnaround JC grab is the new era of falco, once people learn to spot dodge after a single shine JC grab :D :D

 

[Hostility]

A better way to practice is putting the damage ratio to .5 and playing against a level 1 bowser with a high handicap and putting yourself on a low one. you can pillar bowser for like 500%.

 

[LushLahti]

Thanks for taking the time to make this thread, as I'm having a hard time pillaring shields.

Time to go practice!

 

[Wenbobular]

Someone stole my defiler avatar .... heresy

Isn't it slower hitting shields than hitting a Bowser? It feels different drilling a character on handicap than drilling a character when he's invincible

 

[BigD!!!]

i cant believe this information was forgotten

this was like, 100% known when i started playing, and now even mattdotzeb didnt know it

wattyman even does this with samus to practice his dairs at times

 

[Hostility]

Someone stole my defiler avatar .... heresy

Isn't it slower hitting shields than hitting a Bowser? It feels different drilling a character on handicap than drilling a character when he's invincible

Pretty sure it's exactly the same

 

[LushLahti]

Scrub with a question here- What is the difference when hitting a shielding character opposed to a character that is not shielding? Do you have to fast-fall later? L-cancel earlier? I can't seem to get the timing right (not like I've been practicing anyways seeing as how I broke all my controllers).

 

[Siglemic]

Arcnatural: can i have the infinite shields AR code?