Striking Back! (Mewtwo Social)

[MERPIS]

I completely agree. Its a vicious cycle that stagnates the character hard. I was just having a little trouble figuring out exactly what you meant by “hurts” lol.

I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out why characters such as mewtwo, sheik and ZSS fell so hard, I would've said their nerfs but sheik wasn't actually nerfed that hard and ZSS is still kinda stupid, just without the ladder. I'm also trying to figure out what makes the top tiers, like Wolf and Wario, and IKE. So good when they have things that, in any other smash game, would make them mid tier trash.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

If he’s good, where are the results? Why would all of the top Smash 4 Mewtwos drop him?

I’m sorry, but it is simply denial to call a character “good” when they have a super heavy-sized hurtbox, yet are the 5th lightest character in the game, slow fall speed, no reliable anti juggle aerials, tail attacks extend hurtbox, very average framedata, and poor air acceleration.

I get it. No one wants to admit their favorite character is bad. I was in denial for a very long time. But as of now, they nerfed him WAY too hard.

Its not the end for him though. Almost all of the cons I listed can be fixed/remedied through patches. I think it’s way more productive to honestly acknowledge the characters current state rather than lie to ourselves. The sooner we do this, the sooner we can band together make it known to Nintendo that we want justice for our character.

First off good does not mean top tier and tournament results don’t completely determine if a character is good. Remember at launch when everyone called Inkling the best character in the game? As we all know Inkling didn’t produce the expected results in tournament even though ALOT of people were playing her. Does that make Inkling bad? Don’t worry I’ll answer for you, no, it does not. That was with a substantial amount of players using Inkling. Very few are playing Mewtwo on a competitive level right now. You yourself said all the top Smash 4 Mewtwo players dropped the character.

Also ironicly referring to that Inkling/Mewtwo analogy. Some Mewtwo player knocked out (Abandago?) a top smash 4 Mewtwo at Genesis 6, who dropped Mewtwo for Inkling. The set was in top 32 pretty much the first decent Mewtwo I’ve seen in tournament.

Mewtwo has always had that horribly large hurtbox. He’s always had that super low weight, the slow fall speed, no reliable way to deal with juggling. That’s just part of the character.

I disagree with the “average frame data” statement. His frame data is at the very least above average. Couple this with his enormous range, Nair being strong OOS, 25% in the palm of your hands projectile, an assortment of ways to kill, awesome throws (Two of them being kill throws), while also being extremely good offstage, and also having a spike. Don’t forget about his insane recovery, stupidly good dash speeds and command shield break.

If all that isn’t enough to at least warrant being a “good” or even “decent” character I don’t know what to tell you.

Edit: But I do wish they would remove the hurtbox from his tail. If not that remove half of it like PM did so that you aren’t punished for spacing which is his main strength. I had a Ridley d-air me yesterday I read it it and perfectly spaced a Bair to catch him coming down and we trade by him literally hitting the edge of my tail. Looked extremely funny too because I was near 0% and he was at 80%.

 

[MERPIS]

command shield break.

Sorry, the WHAT?

 

[meleebrawler]

Sorry, the WHAT?

Disable causes stun, the exact same thing that happens when a shield is broken.

If you're looking for actual shield breaking moves charged Shadow Balls work quite well; Mewtwo isn't quite as good as setting them up as Samus is but he also doesn't need to as much with his strong throws.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Sorry, the WHAT?

Disable is literally a command shield break. I don’t think it lasts as long at lower percents and doesn’t work some characters. But if you get hit with disable at 80% you’re dead and you can’t do a thing about it.

 

[MERPIS]

Disable causes stun, the exact same thing that happens when a shield is broken.

It comes out slowly, and it itself is easily shielded and punished, much better than smash 4 but its miles from a great move

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

It comes out slowly, and it itself is easily shielded and punished, much better than smash 4 but its miles from a great move

Lol disable is not slow. Anything else that causes stun in this game taks eons to come out compared to this move.

 

[meleebrawler]

Lol disable is not slow. Anything else that causes stun in this game taks eons to come out compared to this move.

It also grants intangibility, making it better at challenging or punishing moves than it looks.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

It also grants intangibility, making it better at challenging or punishing moves than it looks.

Wait what? Lol. On what frames is it invincible?

 

[T-Donor66]

First off good does not mean top tier and tournament results don’t completely determine if a character is good. Remember at launch when everyone called Inkling the best character in the game? As we all know Inkling didn’t produce the expected results in tournament even though ALOT of people were playing her. Does that make Inkling bad? Don’t worry I’ll answer for you, no, it does not. That was with a substantial amount of players using Inkling. Very few are playing Mewtwo on a competitive level right now. You yourself said all the top Smash 4 Mewtwo players dropped the character.

Also ironicly referring to that Inkling/Mewtwo analogy. Some Mewtwo player knocked out (Abandago?) a top smash 4 Mewtwo at Genesis 6, who dropped Mewtwo for Inkling. The set was in top 32 pretty much the first decent Mewtwo I’ve seen in tournament.

Mewtwo has always had that horribly large hurtbox. He’s always had that super low weight, the slow fall speed, no reliable way to deal with juggling. That’s just part of the character.

I disagree with the “average frame data” statement. His frame data is at the very least above average. Couple this with his enormous range, Nair being strong OOS, 25% in the palm of your hands projectile, an assortment of ways to kill, awesome throws (Two of them being kill throws), while also being extremely good offstage, and also having a spike. Don’t forget about his insane recovery, stupidly good dash speeds and command shield break.

If all that isn’t enough to at least warrant being a “good” or even “decent” character I don’t know what to tell you.

Edit: But I do wish they would remove the hurtbox from his tail. If not that remove half of it like PM did so that you aren’t punished for spacing which is his main strength. I had a Ridley d-air me yesterday I read it it and perfectly spaced a Bair to catch him coming down and we trade by him literally hitting the edge of my tail. Looked extremely funny too because I was near 0% and he was at 80%.

Cool, believe what you want. The best Mewtwo in the world, SDX, just dropped him last week btw. He has the same gripes that I do. But go ahead, please keep telling yourself that he’s good.

 

[MERPIS]

The best Mewtwo in the world, SDX, just dropped him last week btw.

Well, mewtwo's meta is now dead

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Lol that’s your response?

Just earlier in the week you said “Mewtwo is still good it would be foolish to believe otherwise” now it’s “You’re in the denial if you think he’s good”

I hope you don’t give up on characters as fast as you give up on a debate....oh wait.

 

[meleebrawler]

Does no one remember as far as early impressions being potentially misleading?

Anyway, being a glass cannon by definition means there will be times where your character feels totally unstoppable and times where you feel completely helpless and lose embarrasingly early. It's understandable people are hesitant to risk such extreme ends of performance when top-level play greatly favors consistency; there's a good chance Pichu will eventually fall off a bit for similar reasons despite seemingly having all the traits of a traditional top tier Smash character.

2 C H i L L E D The user called Nobie mentioned it being intangible from frames 10 to 16, the latter being when the attack starts. So if you want to interrupt it you only have 10 frames to do it.

 

[T-Donor66]

Lol that’s your response?

Just earlier in the week you said “Mewtwo is still good it would be foolish to believe otherwise” now it’s “You’re in the denial if you think he’s good”

I hope you don’t give up on characters as fast as you give up on a debate....oh wait.

Yeah, I give up quickly on characters, which is why I’ve been dedicated to maining him for 12 years. You’re such a fraud. I’ve probably played him longer that you’ve been alive lmaoooo.

I said that stuff 1 month ago btw. I was in denial, and losing hope. Peoples worldviews and opinions change. And you know what? Keep settling for mediocrity. Let companies sit on you and never put pressure on them. They love people like you.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Yeah, I give up quickly on characters, which is why I’ve been dedicated to maining him for 12 years. You’re such a fraud. I’ve probably played him longer that you’ve been alive lmaoooo.

I said that stuff 1 month ago btw. I was in denial, and losing hope. Peoples worldviews and opinions change. And you know what? Keep settling for mediocrity. Let companies sit on you and never put pressure on them. They love people like you.

Salty aren’t we? I highly doubt that too, as I’m not a child and have played every smash iteration including PM. I’m not settling for anything lol, unlike your Mewtwo mine is performing just fine. Let companies sit on me or cry for buffs because some random guy on smash boards is getting bodied on QP? Sounds like the latter to me.

 

[meleebrawler]

Salty aren’t we? I highly doubt that too, as I’m not a child and have played every smash iteration including PM. I’m not settling for anything lol, unlike your Mewtwo mine is performing just fine. Let companies sit on me or cry for buffs because some random guy on smash boards is getting bodied on QP? Sounds like the latter to me.

Plus, not using a character actually makes them less likely to be helped by patches. Getting bodied at least gives the devs useful intel on what needs improving about the character, and without it it's more likely you won't get anything, or arbitrary changes that don't really address the real issues.

 

[T-Donor66]

Salty aren’t we? I highly doubt that too, as I’m not a child and have played every smash iteration including PM. I’m not settling for anything lol, unlike your Mewtwo mine is performing just fine. Let companies sit on me or cry for buffs because some random guy on smash boards is getting bodied on QP? Sounds like the latter to me.

Aww, are you having fun thinking you’re good because you beat up little kids on quickplay? Thats cute. Im willing to bet you haven’t even touched serious tournament play. I find it adorable that you think because you win on quickplay, that you would do good in tournaments.

The funniest part is that you think you know more than the best Mewtwo in the world. That just shows me how up your own *** you are. You try to belittle me and imply im bad for wanting buffs, when SDX is also campaigning for buffs:

Let me know when your Mewtwo places good in even a local, scrub.

 

[meleebrawler]

Aww, are you having fun thinking you’re good because you beat up little kids on quickplay? Thats cute. Im willing to bet you haven’t even touched serious tournament play. I find it adorable that you think because you win on quickplay, that you would do good in tournaments.

The funniest part is that you think you know more than the best Mewtwo in the world. That just shows me how up your own *** you are. Let me know when your Mewtwo places good in even a local, scrub.

Even the best Mewtwo in the world has only had two months with Ultimate at most.

 

[T-Donor66]

Even the best Mewtwo in the world has only had two months with Ultimate at most.

And the wifi warrior above me has also had 2 months with the game. Who do you think is more likely to have the more accurate idea of how viable M2 is?

 

[meleebrawler]

And the wifi warrior above me has also had 2 months with the game. Who do you think is more likely to have the more accurate idea of how viable M2 is?

At this stage, no one. Has this player thoroughly labbed every single matchup and stage with Mewtwo in Ultimate and his moves etc., or is he just changing because he wants something different out the character he uses that he feels Mewtwo isn't providing?

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Aww, are you having fun thinking you’re good because you beat up little kids on quickplay? Thats cute. Im willing to bet you haven’t even touched serious tournament play. I find it adorable that you think because you win on quickplay, that you would do good in tournaments.

The funniest part is that you think you know more than the best Mewtwo in the world. That just shows me how up your own *** you are. Let me know when your Mewtwo places good in even a local, scrub.

No I actually don’t. This is less about how good I am and how good the character is, if you remember that. Playing decent players repeatedly is still the best way to get a grasp of a characters options and how they function.

From my personal experience Mewtwo’s strengths are strong enough to accommodate for his weaknesses in most MUs I’ve played in. He struggles with characters with jank micro-hurtbox antics. He still struggles with disjointed attacks because of his hurtbox. But Marth Lucina Ike Chrom Roy all get absolutely destroyed offstage if you can make the reads.

& I never said I knew more than the best Mewtwo player in a game that’s been out for 2 months -__- ...

You’re obviously massively tilted now so I’ll just let you have it man. BTW You’re correct I don’t go to locals. But you’re more than welcome to play me in friendlies though, since you’re winning so many tournaments right...mr tourney man sir?

 

[meleebrawler]

No I actually don’t. This is less about how good I am and how good the character is, if you remember that. Playing decent players repeatedly is still the best way to get a grasp of a characters options and how they function.

From my personal experience Mewtwo’s strengths are strong enough to accommodate for his weaknesses in most MUs I’ve played in. He struggles with characters with jank micro-hurtbox antics. He still struggles with disjointed attacks because of his hurtbox. But Marth Lucina Ike Chrom Roy all get absolutely destroyed offstage if you can make the reads.

& I never said I knew more than the best Mewtwo player in a game that’s been out for 2 months -__- ...

You’re obviously massively tilted now so I’ll just let you have it man. BTW You’re correct I don’t go to locals. But you’re more than welcome to play me in friendlies though, since you’re winning so many tournaments right...mr tourney man sir?

The actual amount of nerfs Mewtwo received (that aren't cast-wide or indirect), even disregarding the buffs that counterbalance them, are far from enough to drop him several tiers. The worst that could happen is that the other characters simply caught up.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

The actual amount of nerfs Mewtwo received (that aren't cast-wide or indirect), even disregarding the buffs that counterbalance them, are far from enough to drop him several tiers. The worst that could happen is that the other characters simply caught up.

I had the least amount of time playing Smash 4 so I never really experienced how strong he was as a top tier. This isn’t Smash 4, I’m purely going off what this character has in this game and this character has some pretty nutty ****. The other guys keep trying to make the comparison to Smash 4 Mewtwo, when this is a completely different game. You’re like the only person in this thread since I’ve commented that actually thinks before they post.

Idc what all the “Pro” Mewtwo players from another game do, say, drop, etc. This character is not bad. Although the other dude didn’t outright say he was bad, that’s obviously what was being implied.

 

[meleebrawler]

I had the least amount of time playing Smash 4 so I never really experienced how strong he was as a top tier. This isn’t Smash 4, I’m purely going off what this character has in this game and this character has some pretty nutty ****. The other guys keep trying to make the comparison to Smash 4 Mewtwo, when this is a completely different game. You’re like the only person in this thread since I’ve commented that actually thinks before they post.

Idc what all the “Pro” Mewtwo players from another game do, say, drop, etc. This character is not bad. Although the other dude didn’t outright say he was bad, that’s obviously what was being implied.

Well... Mewtwo in Smash 4 was a character that, although not as ''rule-breaking'' as something like Cloud or Bayonetta, certainly was right on the line before crossing into being busted. He abused many options that were strong in that engine: one of the best airdodges in a game with infinite airdodges, strong killing and damaging throws where grabs were a bread-and-butter punish (though strangely no real combo throws), aerials with decent landing lag and chaining where that was a luxury, and though situational he had footstool combos with Disable... though he was far from perfect. As you said before, he had issues with landing from a disadvantaged state with his aerials and despite what people around here would have you believe, his semi-disjointed tail didn't really do him any favours in a head-to-head contest with swordsmen or contests in general, and their hitboxes were actually kind of worse, especially before patches (looking at you utilt). Basically they're the same issues he has now, it's just that in 4 there were way fewer characters that could properly take advantage of them.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

And T-Donor66 I think it’s cute you added a picture of SDX’s thoughts of Mewtwo’s problems. “The best Mewtwo in the world”

-Tail needs to not be a hurtbox (Common knowledge)
-UpSmash needs a larger hit box
-Nair needs to have no lag

So really his only problem was the main problem of his tail being a huge hurtbox. Up-smash does not need a larger hit box when your U-tilt has the hitbox of rainbow in the sky and is also fast as ****. Up-smash is meant for hard reads on people landing. Nair in general is already an insane move and he’s complaining that he’s being punished for SPACING a move with BARELY ANY RANGE? So it needs to have no lag so he can use it without being punished? What? Lol I can’t man...

 

[Browny]

His tail hurtbox issue is almost like a placebo, a scapegoat. Yes its worse than smash 4, but that's not the biggest issue. The only reason people think its so bad is because its the most obvious. M2 was arguably the second worst off thanks to the airdodge change (jpuff suffers the most). Dtilt lost a lot of combo potential on its tipper hit, nair is too small and inconsistent and usmash has a small hitbox.

You need to look at it this way. In smash 4 if you won neutral just once of a dtilt, that could be 40% with a triple fair. If you then won neutral again with a nair, that was a guaranteed fthrow, so an additional 14%+. In this game, those conversions don't work which means that in smash 4 if you won neutral just twice, you had the enemy on 60%+. You win neutral twice in this game with a tipper dtilt and nair and you can get a whopping 15%. That's a huge damn problem when your conversions are so poor. But not only that, neutral was easier to win in Smash 4 thanks to the airdodge fair approach.

Mewtwo's buffs to fsmash, disable, ftilt, shadowball, confusion, dash attack, bthrow and weight can't be ignored, those are big. But the biggest issue he has is his conversion output.

The tail hurtbox has almost nothing to do with it because in smash 4, you weren't challenging an opponents dtilt with your dtilt from a range so far that the disjoint mattered, no one did that with the intion of actually starting a string. You can't just assume a situation where lucina or something is poking you from like 8 character lengths away, and that your response to that was dtilt to approach because even if you somehow clipped them, it required absolute frame perfect timing and the distance was so far, there wasn't any follow ups anyway from the max range dtilt.

Mewtwo has weaknesses, so what, every character does. But you are all doing yourself no favours by crying about the tail hurtbox all day long where even if it was fixed and in fact made BETTER than smash 4, mewtwo would still have the exact same problem he does now which is poor conversions. Put your effort somewhere useful.

 

[Ienzo97]

Also just chiming in, but SDX hasn't dropped Mewtwo, at least not yet.

 

[---]

And T-Donor66 I think it’s cute you added a picture of SDX’s thoughts of Mewtwo’s problems. “The best Mewtwo in the world”

You two are getting way too personal with your arguments. Keep the debate civil.

 

[meleebrawler]

His tail hurtbox issue is almost like a placebo, a scapegoat. Yes its worse than smash 4, but that's not the biggest issue. The only reason people think its so bad is because its the most obvious. M2 was arguably the second worst off thanks to the airdodge change (jpuff suffers the most). Dtilt lost a lot of combo potential on its tipper hit, nair is too small and inconsistent and usmash has a small hitbox.

You need to look at it this way. In smash 4 if you won neutral just once of a dtilt, that could be 40% with a triple fair. If you then won neutral again with a nair, that was a guaranteed fthrow, so an additional 14%+. In this game, those conversions don't work which means that in smash 4 if you won neutral just twice, you had the enemy on 60%+. You win neutral twice in this game with a tipper dtilt and nair and you can get a whopping 15%. That's a huge damn problem when your conversions are so poor. But not only that, neutral was easier to win in Smash 4 thanks to the airdodge fair approach.

Mewtwo's buffs to fsmash, disable, ftilt, shadowball, confusion, dash attack, bthrow and weight can't be ignored, those are big. But the biggest issue he has is his conversion output.

The tail hurtbox has almost nothing to do with it because in smash 4, you weren't challenging an opponents dtilt with your dtilt from a range so far that the disjoint mattered, no one did that with the intion of actually starting a string. You can't just assume a situation where lucina or something is poking you from like 8 character lengths away, and that your response to that was dtilt to approach because even if you somehow clipped them, it required absolute frame perfect timing and the distance was so far, there wasn't any follow ups anyway from the max range dtilt.

Mewtwo has weaknesses, so what, every character does. But you are all doing yourself no favours by crying about the tail hurtbox all day long where even if it was fixed and in fact made BETTER than smash 4, mewtwo would still have the exact same problem he does now which is poor conversions. Put your effort somewhere useful.

I find that the conversion potential is still there, if in different places. The biggest one is Shadow Ball. He's always been able to follow low or semi-charged balls for pressure but now Mewtwo is so fast he can keep up even with fully charged balls and capitalize off of their hits at low percents. Dthrow can set up mean scenarios especially on Battlefield platforms at nearly any percent. And there's utilt which is effective both at starting combos and following up from things like dtilt and landing nair, which is actually more consistent even if less flexible to use with it's shorter duration.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Wow. I never thought this would happen, but as of now, I will be dropping Mewtwo for competitive play after 12 long years.

I just don’t know what it is, but he just isn’t clicking with me in Ultimate. I tried, and I tried, but I am just not doing good with him like I am with other characters. His disadvantage state is just today bad, his tail is a hurtbox now, and his lightness is just too glaring in such an aggressive game like Ultimate.

Farewell man. I will still use him to bust up my friends, but for my competitive career, it has to be this way unfortunately.

I guess that other guy was right after all, eh?

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I find that the conversion potential is still there, if in different places. The biggest one is Shadow Ball. He's always been able to follow low or semi-charged balls for pressure but now Mewtwo is so fast he can keep up even with fully charged balls and capitalize off of their hits at low percents. Dthrow can set up mean scenarios especially on Battlefield platforms at nearly any percent. And there's utilt which is effective both at starting combos and following up from things like dtilt and landing nair, which is actually more consistent even if less flexible to use with it's shorter duration.

I agree. Conversions aren’t a problem imo. I can rack up a huge amount of damage on someone at 0 fairly quickly.

The back hitbox of U-air is an incredible juggling tool that links directly in B-air and sets up edgeguarding situations. I’ve outright right juggled people with u-air then KO’d them by chasing them to the edge of the blast zone with b-airs.

U-tilt is good at setting up U-air juggles. Since the knockback is so poor at low percentages you won’t convert on every character by trying to follow up immediately. Characters with fast enough aerials, like Mario with his Nair for example, can throw these moves out and catch you jumping. If you read this you can easily Nair most characters OOS and we all know how easily Nair sets up even more room to punish. If they jump out of U-tilt happy juggling, if the character has an option to descend quickly a good read still continues your punishes.

B-air is just crazy offstage there are so many MUs where Mewtwo can carry characters off until they can’t recover. Also in a fair amount of MUs where characters can make it back with good recoveries, if you can make the right reads you can edgeguard them until the point you outright KO them. Like, I’m talking them not even touching the ledge once, Mewtwo is so strong offstage.

D tilt is insane. Nair is insane. Shadow Ball forces options out of opponents offstage and frame traps in situations where people choose to take the hit. Dash attack is lovely. The conversions are definitely there.

You two are getting way too personal with your arguments. Keep the debate civil.

My bad that was me. Dude didn’t even respond to me. He kinda triggered me I shouldn’t have responded again after saying I wouldn’t anymore. Just going to ignore him from this point.

 

[T-Donor66]

My bad that was me. Dude didn’t even respond to me. He kinda triggered me I shouldn’t have responded again after saying I wouldn’t anymore. Just going to ignore him from this point.

“I’m going to ignore this guy who is ignoring the constant anger filled replies i keep sending him”

wheezing

 

[itsaxelol]

I'm glad most of you are coming around. For a while here I felt crazy. Mewtwo felt off from the night I unlocked him. Everyone on here was convinced he was top 10 (and that lasted up until the other week apparently). I didn't see it. Part of me figured I was giving K rool and Ridley too much love. The other part of me knew his dtilt, Nair, tail and shadowball nerfs along with not compensating our side b and airdodge nerf with significantly less lag on up b was gonna send him to mid

anyway I'm convinced everyone is lying and there's no such thing as a reverse down b. I reverse my b's and down b's with all my characters. Mewtwos disable never does a turn around.

 

[T-Donor66]

I guess that other guy was right after all, eh?

Unfortunately.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

why mains of high tier and mid tiers in this game cry like if their character was some bottom tier character, if the character was so bad why SDX still used him yesterday and got second in said tournament.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

why mains of high tier and mid tiers in this game cry like if their character was some bottom tier character, if the character was so bad why SDX still used him yesterday and got second in said tournament.

It’s far easier to complain than it is to lab and find solutions apparently. The character isn’t bad I think the majority of the people saying this are stuck on Smash 4 M2 and don’t want to adapt or make changes in their playstyle.

 

[meleebrawler]

It’s far easier to complain than it is to lab and find solutions apparently. The character isn’t bad I think the majority of the people saying this are stuck on Smash 4 M2 and don’t want to adapt or make changes in their playstyle.

Also doesn't occur to most that nearly every character is capable of posing a threat at any level, as opposed to 4 where Mewtwo only really had to worry about other top & high tiers.

It's telling in how it's taken so long for this bad perception to creep up when we've seen him since E3, compared to characters like Samus and Bowser where big changes to their old strong tools were immediately noticed and they got condemned for them just as quickly. There never was, and still isn't some big change that suddenly made Mewtwo awful; the playing field just got leveled.

 

[Downshift]

It’s far easier to complain than it is to lab and find solutions apparently. The character isn’t bad I think the majority of the people saying this are stuck on Smash 4 M2 and don’t want to adapt or make changes in their playstyle.

This is probably true, but people aren't just complaining to complain, they're moving on to different characters. I don't see why it's some kind of problem they should be criticized for.

Smash4 Mewtwo was far and away my #1 main. My best fighter when I was playing tryhards to win, and 2nd most fun out of everyone, only behind Zelda.
He honestly didn't feel that much different to me coming into Ultimate, but I noticed my results just falling off; losing matches I felt I was doing well in, or just noticing that I was performing better with other fighters in comparison.
So I didn't straight up *drop* M2 because I don't claim to be a pro player, but I did start playing other fighters a lot more in M2's place. Fighters with less weaknesses, better advantages and that give me better results. There are 75 fighters in this game, why should a casual player be guilted into sticking with only one? And if you *are* a pro player, you definitely need to do whatever you can to win.

If you look at what people do between iterations of Smash ever since Melee came out; they switch their characters around when new games come out because new ones are added and invasive core changes are often made to their old fighters. I think Ultimate had the best approach to this since they didn't so much as overhaul each fighter as they "honed" each one. Zelda is better at "Zelda-ing" than before; her moves have been changed to optimize playing *as* Zelda, if that makes sense. Samus is more "Samus-y" than before and has nearly her entire kit, even her close range normals built around her charge shot. Palutena does pretty much exactly what she did before, only better as every move is "fixed" or made to do what it was meant to do even better. Greninja is the same; sans the footstool combos and dash grabs. You see this change pretty universally and I think it's great.
The thing with Mewtwo; the issue with Mewtwo seems to just be Sakurai's core vision for how he sees him as a fighter in this game. A textbook glass cannon. So they took M2's fighter archetype and honed that like they did with most everyone else, which in the case of the glass cannon that he is, made his weaknesses weaker and his strengths stronger. This makes player opinions of him very polarizing because one person will see his nerfs from the last game while another will notice his buffs in Ultimate... and the thing is that they're both right.

...therefore if someone is of the experienced anecdotal opinion that Mewtwo's nerfs outweigh his buffs and wants to play another character, that's their prerogative. No one else can object to that choice with anything other than their own experienced anecdotal opinion, which is all it is in the end.

 

[Dcas]

I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out why characters such as mewtwo, sheik and ZSS fell so hard, I would've said their nerfs but sheik wasn't actually nerfed that hard and ZSS is still kinda stupid, just without the ladder. I'm also trying to figure out what makes the top tiers, like Wolf and Wario, and IKE. So good when they have things that, in any other smash game, would make them mid tier trash.

Is not rocket science, they might be viable but will require massive hours of labbing. Why bother doing that, when you can apply the same amount of hours and actually be sure youll be top? Something like what Leffen said, MAYBE PT is top (lowkey he is not) but why put so so many hours when you are at high lvl when you can apply the same amount of hours to a character youll know youll be winning more?

The only reason to do so is because you like the character and at top lvl, liking a character wont get you majors. Maybe some outliers will get top 16 with some obscure or not so common picks, but being consistent with a character that requires triple the labbing and knowledge is just not worth it.

Sheik wont kill she just wont, she has to hard win the neutral and still from a massive string, sheiks does 50%, with any other character thats 2 hits or half a string.

Mewtwo relies on a heavyread oriented game, bait and punish. It is extremely risky with him being so light and giantic, he must be played campy and baiting things which is not reliable at high lvl since everyone will know to play vs mewtwo.

Zss on the other hand i think is an exception, her playstyle just changed from a heavy punish game to her having more tools in the neutral so i expect her to rise as the meta moves on since she is still deadly, just not dumb with the ladder combos.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is probably true, but people aren't just complaining to complain, they're moving on to different characters. I don't see why it's some kind of problem they should be criticized for.

Smash4 Mewtwo was far and away my #1 main. My best fighter when I was playing tryhards to win, and 2nd most fun out of everyone, only behind Zelda.
He honestly didn't feel that much different to me coming into Ultimate, but I noticed my results just falling off; losing matches I felt I was doing well in, or just noticing that I was performing better with other fighters in comparison.
So I didn't straight up *drop* M2 because I don't claim to be a pro player, but I did start playing other fighters a lot more in M2's place. Fighters with less weaknesses, better advantages and that give me better results. There are 75 fighters in this game, why should a casual player be guilted into sticking with only one? And if you *are* a pro player, you definitely need to do whatever you can to win.

If you look at what people do between iterations of Smash ever since Melee came out; they switch their characters around when new games come out because new ones are added and invasive core changes are often made to their old fighters. I think Ultimate had the best approach to this since they didn't so much as overhaul each fighter as they "honed" each one. Zelda is better at "Zelda-ing" than before; her moves have been changed to optimize playing *as* Zelda, if that makes sense. Samus is more "Samus-y" than before and has nearly her entire kit, even her close range normals built around her charge shot. Palutena does pretty much exactly what she did before, only better as every move is "fixed" or made to do what it was meant to do even better. Greninja is the same; sans the footstool combos and dash grabs. You see this change pretty universally and I think it's great.
The thing with Mewtwo; the issue with Mewtwo seems to just be Sakurai's core vision for how he sees him as a fighter in this game. A textbook glass cannon. So they took M2's fighter archetype and honed that like they did with most everyone else, which in the case of the glass cannon that he is, made his weaknesses weaker and his strengths stronger. This makes player opinions of him very polarizing because one person will see his nerfs from the last game while another will notice his buffs in Ultimate... and the thing is that they're both right.

...therefore if someone is of the experienced anecdotal opinion that Mewtwo's nerfs outweigh his buffs and wants to play another character, that's their prerogative. No one else can object to that choice with anything other than their own experienced anecdotal opinion, which is all it is in the end.

That's all well and good, but the issue I feel is the detractor side believes their arguments just a bit too much, almost trying to pass them off as absolute facts.

I for one, have a less than stellar record trying to use Pichu. Doesn't mean I'm going to go around trying to convince people he's not top tier and lambast those who disagree or stick with him regardless. I just accept that I'm not as good at using characters like him. If only others were more honest...