Strength Tier List

[PrinceMarthX]

I think 3 moves is a good number. Ones that require luck: green missile, judge and Peach's forward smash are excluded.

 

[Browny]

princemarth could you please test the numbers i quoted, and those of ZSS to make sure we did the same method since im quite sure the ZSS numbers you are using are with the CPU set to control instead of stop, so the attacks will KO earlier than normal

btw my numebrs (for sonic and diddy) were done with cpu on stop

 

[PrinceMarthX]

These are the numbers I got for Zero Suit Samus.

flip jump: 119%
back air: 121%
forward air: 128%

average: 122.6

That moves her below Squirtle and above Mario.

 

[LinkSpecialist]

Link
down air: 84%
down smash: 107%
forward smash: 126%

Hate to be a bother, but can you test out Link's second F-smash? it's actually stronger than the first one if sweetspotted from the inner center of the blade.


Please?

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Hate to be a bother, but can you test out Link's second F-smash? it's actually stronger than the first one if sweetspotted from the inner center of the blade.


Please?

Couldn't get it to kill any earlier. I tried hitting every part of the blade I could do.

 

[LinkSpecialist]

Couldn't get it to kill any earlier. I tried hitting every part of the blade I could do.

Really? That's strange...thanks for trying anyways!

I found out you can kill Marth at around 57-60 percent with a fully charged second-Fsmash from the center of FD without DI.

>.>

...but I guess that doesn't help does it?

 

[Samuelson]

I think 3 moves is a good number. Ones that require luck: green missile, judge and Peach's forward smash are excluded.

3 is not a good number at all. Pretty much every character has 3 good kill moves at least. You should at least do 5, it will be a more accurate representation of who is really stronger. The only reason why you wouldn't want to do it is because you're lazy.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

So people don't have to search through the entire thread; Each character's three strongest attacks, in order of the tier list.

Moves that rely on luck are excluded.
Moves that can't be charged while moving or moving while charged are excluded.

Ganondorf
wizard punch: 21%
up tilt: 45%
forward smash: 76%
---
Mr. Game & Watch
oil panic: 18%
up smash: 77%
down Smash: 80%
---
Donkey Kong
giant punch: 48%
forward smash: 75%
up smash: 76%
---
King Dedede
forward smash: 50%
jet hammer: 52%
up tilt: 103%



Zelda
back air: 71%
forward air: 76%
up air: 82%
---
Captain Falcon
falcon punch: 46%
forward air: 80%
down smash: 105%
---
Lucario
forward smash: 72%
aura sphere: 83%
double team: 80%
---
Luigi
super jump punch: 50%
forward smash tilted up: 81%
up smash: 106%
---
Ike
forward smash: 52%
up air: 90%
forward tilt: 99%
---
Ness
PK thunder: 35%
forward smash: 92%
back air: 114%
---
Snake
forward smash: 59%
C4: 93%
up tilt: 102%
---
Bowser
forward smash: 80%
up air: 84%
Bowser bomb: 94%
---
Ivysaur
up smash: 59%
up air: 92%
forward smash: 107%
---
Lucas
up smash: 76%
down smash: 93%
forward smash: 96%



Wario
Wario waft: 52%
forward smash: 112%
up air: 113%
---
Olimar
up smash: 79%
down smash: 98%
forward smash: 100%
---
Kirby
hammer: 83%
stone drop: 100%
up smash: 101%
---
Jigglypuff
rest: 67%
forward smash: 110%
up smash: 110%
---
Marth
forward smash: 78%
down smash: 104%
dancing blade: 107% (4th up strike)
---
Charizard
forward smash: 87%
rock smash: 98%
up smash: 104%
---
Pikachu
thunder: 80%
forward smash: 109%
up smash: 119%
---
Link
down air: 84%
down smash: 107%
forward smash: 126%
---
Toon Link
forward smash: 106%
up air: 111%
up smash: 112%
---
Yoshi
up air: 111%
Yoshi bomb: 111%
up smash: 112%
---
Fox
up smash: 93%
up air: 126%
forward smash: 129%
---
Peach
up smash: 80%
forward air: 133%
forward tilt: 139%
---
R.O.B.
up smash: 95%
forward smash tilted up: 123%
neutral air: 138%



Squirtle
up smash: 95%
forward smash: 125%
down smash: 145%
---
Zero Suit Samus
flip jump: 119%
back air: 121%
forward air: 128%
---
Mario
forward smash tilted up: 102%
up smash: 124%
down smash: 145%
---
Samus
charge shot: 118%
back air: 122%
down tilt: 131%
---
Sheik
up smash: 88%
vanish: 132%
neutral air: 152%
---
Pit
back air: 106%
forward smash: 127%
down smash: 141%
---
Sonic
forward smash: 117%
down smash: 124%
back air: 134%
---
Wolf
down smash: 118%
up smash: 127%
up tilt: 130%
---
Falco
forward smash: 115%
up smash: 122%
up air: 142%
---
Ice Climbers
up smash: 114%
forward smash: 131%
belay: 139%



Meta Knight
forward smash: 118%
shutter loop: 136%
down smash: 136%
---
Diddy Kong
forward smash: 130%
down smash: 137%
forward air: 150%

 

[Browny]

Squirtles d-throw is a way better KO move than his dsmash

i think Fox's bair is also stronger than his fsmash

 

[2007]

Ganondorf is God Tier

QFT.

and definitely Ike, DK, and Snake are up there.

this might be the one place where Meta-Knight is almost at the bottom. =3

=2007=

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Squirtles d-throw is a way better KO move than his dsmash

It's weaker. It kills at 148%

i think Fox's bair is also stronger than his fsmash

It's not. It kills at 133%

 

[Kennahh]

Not sure if this only effects the damage of his moves, or if it effects the knockback as well, but how much damage does lucario have on him?

 

[Danteh]

OMFG A LIST WHERE MK IS BOTTOM TIER THIS CANNOT BE

WTF OMG NERF sdggdhfgh..sd-.f`pl

1'0c'hars

 

[Browny]

wow squirtles dthrow KO'ing at 148... i must be DI'ing completely wrong lol ive been dying at <140 to that thing.

btw snakes dair is wayyy more powerful than utilt, like at least 18% earlier. i dont think you should only count the last hit, since its just about impossible for anyone to only land the last hit, but an SH dair will more often than not land all 4 hits, and is about the surest way you are ever going to get a KO from it.

and the lucario numbers listed were for lucario at 170%, even stock standing. we should probably put up another set when he is at mid-power (97% approx)

 

[.Marik]

Luigi and Mario are base value I suppose, more so with Mario..

For once, Ganondorf would be top-tier. =P

And Lucario, I heard he gets stronger as he rakes up more damage...

And Yoshi, eh, Middle-Tier...

 

[PrinceMarthX]

and the lucario numbers listed were for lucario at 170%, even stock standing. we should probably put up another set when he is at mid-power (97% approx)

I tested Lucario numbers with 200% and they were the same.

 

[Gindler]

I think 3 moves is a good number. Ones that require luck: green missile, judge and Peach's forward smash are excluded.

Honestly, Oil Panic requires more luck than these. I haven't seen an oil panic kill in a real tourney match...(no one would throw 3 in, maybe 2 but not 3)

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

May I ask why only c-stick smashes? That's not the strongest an opponent can be hit. Charging charges up power--this thread is supposed to make a thread on who is the strongest.... it makes sense to use fully charged smashes..?

^ No response the first time..

 

[manhunter098]

Seriosuly? Only strength is important. Personally I do think the number of frames before the hitbox comes out needs to be considered as well as the size of the hitbox, ability to combo into the attack at killing percents should also be taken into account as well. Then you will find out what characters can get non gimp KOs more effectively than any of the others.


And on the Lucario being the same at 200%...yeah his power increase caps out at 170%, hence why DJ tested him while he was at 170%.

 

[infomon]

Personally I do think the number of frames before the hitbox comes out needs to be considered as well as the size of the hitbox, ability to combo into the attack at killing percents should also be taken into account as well. Then you will find out what characters can get non gimp KOs more effectively than any of the others.

To travel down that path is to realize that this is all a waste of time. Selecting an arbitrary set of criteria on which to evaluate.... what, exactly? How good the characters are? The only practical and effective way to do this is to use tournament results. There's no other way to account for how good all the different movesets are, for an example, at mindgaming into KOs. etc...

Instead let's spend our time getting better at the different characters, to shake up the tournament results, and hence tier list placings :D

Sonic for top tier!!

Spoiler

<-- This should certainly destroy any credibility my post may have had, heehee

 

[MysticKenji]

"Ike
forward smash: 52%
up air: 90%
forward tilt: 99%"

dtilt sweetspot says wtf to this trio
and i could've sworn ftilt kills later than uair >_>

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Since I enjoyed making the list, I'll do it again. Except this time specials aren't allowed and I'll do 5 attacks instead of 3. I'm sure this will cause more controversy.

Ganondorf
up tilt: 45%
forward smash: 76%
down air: 87%
forward air: 100%
up smash: 105%

average: 82.6

Luigi
forward smash tilted up: 81%
up smash: 106%
neutral air: 118%
down smash: 122%
up tilt: 131%

average: 111.6

Mario
forward smash tilted up: 102%
up smash: 124%
down smash: 145%
up tilt: 158%
back air: 164%

average: 138.6

Ike
forward smash: 52%
up air: 90%
down tilt: 92%
forward tilt: 99%
up smash: 100%

average: 86.6

Zelda
back air: 71%
forward air: 76%
up air: 82%
up tilt: 104%
up smash: 108%

average: 88.2

Toon Link
forward smash: 106%
up air: 111%
up smash: 112%
down smash: 125%
forward air: 131%

average: 117

Yoshi
up air: 111%
forward smash: 118%
up smash: 130%
neutral air: 150%
forward air: 187%

average: 139.2

Kirby
up smash: 101%
forward smash tilted up: 102%
down smash: 113%
back air: 136%
up throw: 167%

average: 123.8

Mr. Game & Watch
up smash: 77%
down Smash: 80%
forward smash: 91%
forward air: 130%
up tilt: 144%

average: 104.4

Meta Knight
forward smash: 118%
glide attack: 128%
neutral air: 135%
down smash: 136%
up smash: 147%

average: 132.8

Diddy Kong
forward smash: 130%
down smash: 137%
forward air: 150%
up air: 156%
up tilt: 159%

average: 146.4

King Dedede
forward smash: 50%
running attack: 100%
up tilt: 103%
up smash: 109%
down smash: 111%

average: 94.6

Donkey Kong
forward smash: 75%
up smash: 76%
down smash: 92%
up air: 115%
up tilt: 117%

average: 95

Wario
forward smash: 112%
up air: 113%
forward tilt: 135%
up smash: 137%
down smash: 153%

average: 130

Ness
forward smash: 92%
back air: 114%
up air: 115%
back throw: 120%
down smash: 157%

average: 119.6

Lucas
up smash: 76%
down smash: 93%
forward smash: 96%
down throw: 141%
up air: 145%

average: 110.2

Snake
forward smash: 59%
down air: 83%
up air: 99%
up tilt: 102%
forward air: 102%

average: 89

Peach
up smash: 80%
forward air: 133%
forward tilt: 139%
up air: 142%
back air: 150%

average: 128.8

Captain Falcon
forward air: 80%
up smash: 104%
down smash: 105%
forward smash: 113%
back air: 123%

average: 105

Lucario
forward smash: 72%
up smash: 84%
down smash: 87%
up air: 101%
back air: 106%

average: 90

Bowser
forward smash: 80%
up air: 84%
up smash: 91%
down smash: 99%
up tilt: 109%

average: 92.6

Sonic
forward smash: 117%
down smash: 124%
back air: 134%
up smash: 154%
up tilt: 157%

average: 137.2

Jigglypuff
forward smash: 110%
up smash: 110%
forward air: 122%
up tilt: 126%
running attack: 149%

average: 123.4

Marth
forward smash: 78%
down smash: 104%
up smash: 112%
back air: 130%
up air: 132%

average: 111.2

Pikachu
forward smash: 109%
up smash: 119%
down smash: 120%
neutral air: 143%
up tilt: 152%

average: 128.6

Squirtle
up smash: 95%
forward smash: 125%
down smash: 145%
up air: 145%
down throw: 148%

average: 131.6

Ivysaur
up smash: 59%
up air: 92%
forward smash: 107%
forward air: 131%
running attack: 135%

average: 104.8

Charizard
forward smash: 87%
up smash: 104%
down tilt: 124%
down air: 125%
down smash: 126%

average: 113.2

Olimar
up smash: 79%
down smash: 98%
forward smash: 100%
up throw: 114%
forward air: 135%

average: 105.2

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Current tier list

Top
Ganondorf
Ike
Zelda
Snake
Lucario
Bowser
King Dedede
Donkey Kong

High
Mr. Game & Watch
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon
Olimar

Middle
Lucas
Marth
Luigi
Charizard
Toon Link
Ness
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Pikachu
Peach
Wario
Squirtle
Meta Knight

Low
Sonic
Mario
Yoshi

Bottom
Diddy Kong

 

[Ilucamy]

Holy... you guys are taking this waaaaaaay to technically.
You already made a tier list, so I'm not gonna ask you to change it, but don't you think it would've been slightly easier (albeit slightly less accurate) to COUNT THE CHARACTERS NUMBER OF KILL MOVES.

Also, out of curiosity, how are you separating the tiers?

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Tiers are separated by margins.

When you put the average next to the character, you can see them.

Top tier
Ganondorf: 82.6
Ike: 86.6
Snake: 87.2
Zelda: 88.2
Lucario: 90
Bowser: 92.6
Donkey Kong: 95

High tier
King Dedede: 101.2
Mr. Game & Watch: 104.4
Ivysaur: 104.8
Captain Falcon: 105
Olimar: 105.2

Middle tier
Lucas: 110.2
Marth: 111.2
Luigi: 111.6
Charizard: 113.2
Toon Link: 117
Ness: 119.6
Jigglypuff: 123.4
Kirby: 123.8
Pikachu: 128.6
Peach: 128.8
Wario: 130
Squirtle: 131.6

Low tier
Sonic: 137.2
Mario: 138.6
Yoshi: 139.2
Meta Knight: 139.6

Bottom tier
Diddy Kong: 146.4

 

[Ilucamy]

Why did you only put Lucario at maximum power? Doesn't really make sense, being behind by 3 stocks and being at 170% isn't very likely, and it won't last long. Shouldn't you have put him at average? Or maybe put two of him XD.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

That's his power at 170%. The stocks aren't factored because all tests are done in Training mode; Not going to make an exception for him.

 

[Gindler]

Wow, Yoshi is so low on the list...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Since I enjoyed making the list, I'll do it again. Except this time specials aren't allowed and I'll do 5 attacks instead of 3. I'm sure this will cause more controversy.

Ganondorf
up tilt: 45%
forward smash: 76%
down air: 87%
forward air: 100%
up smash: 105%

average: 82.6

Luigi
forward smash tilted up: 81%
up smash: 106%
neutral air: 118%
down smash: 122%
up tilt: 131%
misfire and fire jump punch

average: 111.6

Mario
forward smash tilted up: 102%
up smash: 124%
down smash: 145%
up tilt: 158%
back air: 164%

average: 138.6

Ike
forward smash: 52%
up air: 90%
down tilt: 92%
forward tilt: 99%
up smash: 100%
eruption, nuff said

average: 86.6

Zelda
back air: 71%
forward air: 76%
up air: 82%
up tilt: 104%
up smash: 108%

average: 88.2

Toon Link
forward smash: 106%
up air: 111%
up smash: 112%
down smash: 125%
forward air: 131%

average: 117

Yoshi
up air: 111%
forward smash: 118%
up smash: 130%
neutral air: 150%
forward air: 187%

average: 139.2

Kirby
up smash: 101%
forward smash tilted up: 102%
down smash: 113%
back air: 136%
up throw: 167%
Hammer? and second hit of airial hammer

average: 123.8

Mr. Game & Watch
up smash: 77%
down Smash: 80%
forward smash: 91%
forward air: 130%
up tilt: 144%
Number 9 and bucket both kill from 0%

average: 104.4

Meta Knight
forward smash: 118%
neutral air: 135%
down smash: 136%
up smash: 147%
up air: 162%
Shuttle loop, glide attack? they are seperate moves

average: 139.6

Diddy Kong
forward smash: 130%
down smash: 137%
forward air: 150%
up air: 156%
up tilt: 159%

average: 146.4

King Dedede
forward smash: 50%
up tilt: 103%
up smash: 109%
down smash: 111%
back air: 133%
Jet hammer, gordo, and dash attack

average: 101.2

Donkey Kong
forward smash: 75%
up smash: 76%
down smash: 92%
up air: 115%
up tilt: 117%
Giant punch?

average: 95

Wario
forward smash: 112%
up air: 113%
forward tilt: 135%
up smash: 137%
down smash: 153%
Fart?

average: 130

Ness
forward smash: 92%
back air: 114%
up air: 115%
back throw: 120%
down smash: 157%
PKT2, PK flash

average: 119.6

Lucas
up smash: 76%
down smash: 93%
forward smash: 96%
down throw: 141%
up air: 145%

average: 110.2

Snake
forward smash: 59%
down air: 83%
C4: 93%
up air: 99%
up tilt: 102%
try down air and neutral air, as well as nikita from very far away, and grenades

average: 87.2

Peach
up smash: 80%
forward air: 133%
forward tilt: 139%
up air: 142%
back air: 150%
stitch face? i understand its random, but its a strength list, how applicable said strong move is in a tournament match is basically irrelevent

average: 128.8

Captain Falcon
forward air: 80%
up smash: 104%
down smash: 105%
forward smash: 113%
back air: 123%
Falcon punch, duh

average: 105

Lucario
forward smash: 72%
up smash: 84%
down smash: 87%
up air: 101%
back air: 106%
I know down air, and aura sphere, and force palm grab, and double team and try up tilt and down tilt, i think they all kill before up air

average: 90

Bowser
forward smash: 80%
up air: 84%
up smash: 91%
down smash: 99%
up tilt: 109%
Down B

average: 92.6

Sonic
forward smash: 117%
down smash: 124%
back air: 134%
up smash: 154%
up tilt: 157%

average: 137.2

Jigglypuff
forward smash: 110%
up smash: 110%
forward air: 122%
up tilt: 126%
running attack: 149%
Rest and rollout

average: 123.4

Marth
forward smash: 78%
down smash: 104%
up smash: 112%
back air: 130%
up air: 132%
Side B and up B

average: 111.2

Pikachu
forward smash: 109%
up smash: 119%
down smash: 120%
neutral air: 143%
up tilt: 152%
Thunder, and thunder after contact with pikachu

average: 128.6

Squirtle
up smash: 95%
forward smash: 125%
down smash: 145%
up air: 145%
down throw: 148%

average: 131.6

Ivysaur
up smash: 59%
up air: 92%
forward smash: 107%
forward air: 131%
running attack: 135%

average: 104.8

Charizard
forward smash: 87%
up smash: 104%
down tilt: 124%
down air: 125%
down smash: 126%
Rock Smash

average: 113.2

Olimar
up smash: 79%
down smash: 98%
forward smash: 100%
up throw: 114%
forward air: 135%

average: 105.2

im sorry, but i dont like your reasoning at all I pointed out the spots that i KNEW were wrong
you put snakes C4 on the list, so i know that b moves are included here
your numbers onMK is what tipped me off to this being wrong, he was wrong on the last list. but i dont get the reasoning behind not using specials, they are supposed to be special moves.

also, how are you testing this, it seems like the best way would be, hitting mario from the center of FD, but it seems as if thats not the method you used, but im not sure.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

You missed an important detail.

Since I enjoyed making the list, I'll do it again. Except this time specials aren't allowed and I'll do 5 attacks instead of 3. I'm sure this will cause more controversy.

About Snake's C4. I forgot to take it off. My mistake there.

try down air and neutral air, as well as nikita from very far away, and grenades

Down air is already on the list. Netural air isn't any stronger than the attacks listed.

Jet hammer, gordo, and dash attack

Forgot about dash attack. It kills at 100% -corrects-

Shuttle loop, glide attack? they are seperate moves

Glide attacks. I forgot all about them.

I know down air, and aura sphere, and force palm grab, and double team and try up tilt and down tilt, i think they all kill before up air

Ignoring the specials: They don't.

it seems like the best way would be, hitting mario from the center of FD, but it seems as if thats not the method you used, but im not sure.

That is the method used.

 

[da K.I.D.]

my bad i noticed that right before i hit the post button, but why would you do that?

 

[gallax]

who are you testing the kill numbers on? are you doing an aveage percent? if not you should try(for example) ike's ftilt on every character and then average the kill percents.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Thats pointless IMO.
Why not just hit the heaviest character in the game?
I mean if they can kill the heaviest char with it, they can kill everyone else with it >.>

 

[ikemaster]

ike is the strongest because his side-smash kills before 50% at dull point

 

[zealotscout]

Bowser for top ,Ike for 2nd

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Thats pointless IMO.
Why not just hit the heaviest character in the game?
I mean if they can kill the heaviest char with it, they can kill everyone else with it >.>

It doesn't matter who the tests are on. If an attack would kill 10% later on a heavy character then that would apply for everyone, making the difference none.

Tests are done against Mario because he's base value.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i still dont understand the thought process involved in choosing not to use specials

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Because it makes things more complicated. Most specials require a charge to be strong and landing them isn't practical. It's why smashes aren't charged. You aren't going to land a fully charged smash unless you break your opponent's shield and that doesn't happen often. Then there's some specials that are luck based like: green missile, judge, turnip, waddle dee throw etc.

 

[Mario_ 101]

Ike wins no contest. Charge eruption up to near power then release it.

 

[Browny]

you really should include lucarios AS, its like his third most reliable KO move, and landing it is easier than something like any of ikes smash attacks/tilts lol