super_nintendo
Smash Journeyman
Agreed, there my pal.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Street Fighter
- Thread starter The Jive Professor
- Start date
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, I used to think that it was just a boring as hell game. But after thinking about it for more than 2 seconds and remembering why it's so boring. Because they just threw something together faster than a Mugen noobie, and then released it for both arcade and PS2.
To me, that's just Capcom giving the 2D players the middle finger. And if you think it's a good game, then you either A) Suck at games in general. B) Have some really poor taste in games. Or C) Are just really biased towards Capcom games in general.
Same goes with MK Armageddon. Alright, I know that the series is just broken and is garbage in general. But if you have played Deception, and then go play Armageddon, you'll realize that it was just thrown together. Same **** thing with each character only having two fighting styles. They did'nt try to give anyone anything new, it was just slapped together and from there did their KAK mode for about 6 months.
And I know what you mean about CvS2. Have been playing N-Groove Vice and somehow am doing really well with her. Of course I still somehow get 7 plus game winning streaks with K-Geese/Sagat/Blanka. And I *REALLY* hate that game.
To me, that's just Capcom giving the 2D players the middle finger. And if you think it's a good game, then you either A) Suck at games in general. B) Have some really poor taste in games. Or C) Are just really biased towards Capcom games in general.
Same goes with MK Armageddon. Alright, I know that the series is just broken and is garbage in general. But if you have played Deception, and then go play Armageddon, you'll realize that it was just thrown together. Same **** thing with each character only having two fighting styles. They did'nt try to give anyone anything new, it was just slapped together and from there did their KAK mode for about 6 months.
And I know what you mean about CvS2. Have been playing N-Groove Vice and somehow am doing really well with her. Of course I still somehow get 7 plus game winning streaks with K-Geese/Sagat/Blanka. And I *REALLY* hate that game.
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
In all due honesty, I hate CFE simply because Capcom just didn't care, I'm a big fan of their company, however I know a crappy fighting game when I see one. I mean, you have idiots who said Street Fighter II : CE and HF play the same, yes, so therefore it's crap back in the days, yes, the game engine is the same, however what they don't realize is that Capcom made a far more balanced game...Ce. Bison no longer has his ghey garbage from CE, and HF is the most balanced SF2 game as well as the best OG SF2 game.
CFE I believe if they would "maybe" attempt another one would probably get it right, however this time around, "actually" put effort into it. It kind of reminds me of Capcom vs. Snk 1, they had alot of good ideas but it just felt completely horrible, CvsS2 came along and got it more set straight. Given RCing is too good/broken as you well, however without the discovery or use of RCing characters who wouldn't be good are actually good with RCing, so finding broken stuff pays off sometimes eh
.
Lol, Rockman, at least your honest about not liking CvsS2, I actually enjoy it alot, in many cases, I even enjoy it more so than 3S (I don't know about liking it more than 2I though...that games just too much fun). The ability to choose 3 characters with so many groove options to me makes it much more fun than 3S.
In CvsS2, I've been also playing Rock Howard lately...all I gotta say is...he's "rock" solid man. Isn't he Upper or High-Mid in CvsS2? I don't remember anymore but man, I love him in A-Groove...he imo isn't that great in N-Groove...or else maybe I'm just a newbie at utilizing N-Groove.
Still nothing beats HSF2:AE or StreetFighterII:HF for me, if any of you ever come to the Green Bay area, don't be afraid to hit me up, I'm more than willing to play any of you guys casually in SF, sorry, I don't money match anymore man, I'm done with competetion now, been doing it for almost 15 yrs now, casual is where it's at now for me.
CFE I believe if they would "maybe" attempt another one would probably get it right, however this time around, "actually" put effort into it. It kind of reminds me of Capcom vs. Snk 1, they had alot of good ideas but it just felt completely horrible, CvsS2 came along and got it more set straight. Given RCing is too good/broken as you well, however without the discovery or use of RCing characters who wouldn't be good are actually good with RCing, so finding broken stuff pays off sometimes eh
.Lol, Rockman, at least your honest about not liking CvsS2, I actually enjoy it alot, in many cases, I even enjoy it more so than 3S (I don't know about liking it more than 2I though...that games just too much fun). The ability to choose 3 characters with so many groove options to me makes it much more fun than 3S.
In CvsS2, I've been also playing Rock Howard lately...all I gotta say is...he's "rock" solid man. Isn't he Upper or High-Mid in CvsS2? I don't remember anymore but man, I love him in A-Groove...he imo isn't that great in N-Groove...or else maybe I'm just a newbie at utilizing N-Groove.
Still nothing beats HSF2:AE or StreetFighterII:HF for me, if any of you ever come to the Green Bay area, don't be afraid to hit me up, I'm more than willing to play any of you guys casually in SF, sorry, I don't money match anymore man, I'm done with competetion now, been doing it for almost 15 yrs now, casual is where it's at now for me.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
The only thing that CvS2 got "right" was the ratio system, and going back to 6 buttons. They were too scared to try anything with many of the grooves (S Groove is a really good example) and RC makes the game a joke. You can't use a dominating glitch to justify making a game better. Sure it raises some characters like Honda to a higher tier status, but don't forget how some already top teir characters get even more advantages (Blanka's electricty, Bison's Scissor Kick) and completly nullifies certain aspects like projectiles. Yeah, losing 80 percent life to Bison because you threw a hadouken! Fricken awesome! Or how about A groove countering K for the simple fact that you'll get guard crushed, and still lose a hefty amount of life even on block. Oh yeah, not to mention CvS2 is another game were custom combo's just are too good.
Having to use major glitch (and a overall game error) to balance out another game error (and a simple one may I add) is just absurd. Not to mention because of that, a once fierce groove with a rushdown orientied style of play (which is something that CvS2 serverly lacks, and needs IMO) hurts way to much because of the strong defensive options RC gives.
RC just makes CvS2 sooooo stupid. I just can't see how people can defend that piece of trash!
I also understand that there's like 50 characters, and 6 grooves. But unless you are *REALLY* good at the game, you should'nt bother using a majority of the options you are given cause you'll just end up constantly losing. Combofiend is really good at CvS2 and he makes watching it look good. But that guy in that game is just a top teir player hands down. I love how my friend uses the whole 50 plus characters, 6 grooves, and SNK characters to defend CvS2, and that it's not like Marvel 2 with infinites and Tron assist, or 3S with Genei Jin combo's, or ST with touch of death combo's, but then right of the back he goes and tells some people that are enjoying the game to go drop Mai, Rock, Hibiki, Akuma and use Blanka and Sagat because "they won't get anywhere with those mid teir characters".......yeah, where are you 50 plus charcters and 6 grooves now?
Having to use major glitch (and a overall game error) to balance out another game error (and a simple one may I add) is just absurd. Not to mention because of that, a once fierce groove with a rushdown orientied style of play (which is something that CvS2 serverly lacks, and needs IMO) hurts way to much because of the strong defensive options RC gives.
RC just makes CvS2 sooooo stupid. I just can't see how people can defend that piece of trash!
I also understand that there's like 50 characters, and 6 grooves. But unless you are *REALLY* good at the game, you should'nt bother using a majority of the options you are given cause you'll just end up constantly losing. Combofiend is really good at CvS2 and he makes watching it look good. But that guy in that game is just a top teir player hands down. I love how my friend uses the whole 50 plus characters, 6 grooves, and SNK characters to defend CvS2, and that it's not like Marvel 2 with infinites and Tron assist, or 3S with Genei Jin combo's, or ST with touch of death combo's, but then right of the back he goes and tells some people that are enjoying the game to go drop Mai, Rock, Hibiki, Akuma and use Blanka and Sagat because "they won't get anywhere with those mid teir characters".......yeah, where are you 50 plus charcters and 6 grooves now?
shadenexus18
Smash Master
Whoa, an active Street Fighter forum. Now this is what I'm talkin about!
Well, as far as Capcom Fighting Evolution goes, I can't say that I enjoyed it to much due to the fact that this game lacked Shotokan Fighters whom I only pick. They only have Ryu, Akuma, Sakura (who I don't use), and Morrigan (whom I don't use). Other than that, I enjoyed facing Pyron & Shin Akuma as the last bosses. That was awesome!
super_nintendo
Smash Journeyman
I usually go with the Darkstalkers characters, theyr'e the most balanced in my opinion.
T-major
Smash Champion
I've played Third Strike, and liked it a lot; but the other games really didn't interest me that much. although, I havn't played that many of them... can anyone sugest a good one to play? also, the characters in Guilty Gear are more original (although I havn't played Guilty gear yet, from what I've seen in videos it looks way more interesting).
shadenexus18
Smash Master
Evil Ryu dominates over Capcom vs. SNK, or at least I think so.
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Some fighting games will always be broken no matter what, you and I both play MvC2 and that makes CvsS2 look "balanced". So quite honestly, I don't mind RCing all that much, considering MvC2 has 1093478092384098 times more glitches, so to me, glitches have always been something that's been in fighting games, just that some are obviously more visible then others. It's not like in SF2:HF Capcom wanted to give Ryu an inv. start up hurricane kick, because this only made him better(Like he wasn't good before hand anyhow).
I like CvsS2, sure, I will admit w/out a doubt, A-Groove pretty much runs house, but RCing too me is just too much fun. Blanka/Sagat/Sak/Dictator are ghey, yeah, but so is Storm/Sent/Mags/Cable, and to me, at least within CvsS2 the middle tier characters stand more of a chance against the tops in there then they do in MvC2...if you play below Upper Tier in MvC2, you should just as well quit the game.
I don't think CvsS2 is as bad as it seems, its not great, but judging it from CvsS1, it's way better. I was never a person to contradict so much about the balance issue of the game, just so long as the game is still enjoyable and has a solid amount of competition to go with it. Sad though CvsS2's competition has dropped tremendously over the years. What's depressing is that I got into it during it's "prime" years, however not as much as I should've been...I guess I was too busy with MvC2 at the time.
3S is the "the" fighting game for NG Street Fighter Players now a days.
I like CvsS2, sure, I will admit w/out a doubt, A-Groove pretty much runs house, but RCing too me is just too much fun. Blanka/Sagat/Sak/Dictator are ghey, yeah, but so is Storm/Sent/Mags/Cable, and to me, at least within CvsS2 the middle tier characters stand more of a chance against the tops in there then they do in MvC2...if you play below Upper Tier in MvC2, you should just as well quit the game.
I don't think CvsS2 is as bad as it seems, its not great, but judging it from CvsS1, it's way better. I was never a person to contradict so much about the balance issue of the game, just so long as the game is still enjoyable and has a solid amount of competition to go with it. Sad though CvsS2's competition has dropped tremendously over the years. What's depressing is that I got into it during it's "prime" years, however not as much as I should've been...I guess I was too busy with MvC2 at the time.
3S is the "the" fighting game for NG Street Fighter Players now a days.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Marvel 2 is a broken game though. But even then, there is'nt a universal glitch that's practical and makes throwing out an attack a risk.
To me, RC just messes around with CvS2 in so many ways. Not to mention the game is utterly slow and makes it rather uninteresting after a while.
And Marvel2 is a lot more versatile than you give it credit for. You play Marvel2, so you know that while the God 4 are so much more dominating than the teirs of CvS2, but Marvel2 is more of a team game that CvS2 is. While CvS2 may see more characters, Marvel see's a huge amount of variety. There are so many teams that can compete. Not to mention it's not slow like CvS2.
Like I told my friend, if you like CvS2, then more power to you, that's another game you can enjoy. I can't get past the fact of it being slow, there's roll canceling, A groove slows the game down even more, and my groove get's countered by the most dominating groove because it can still demolish K (and P) grooves guard bar. Sure it get's only level 3's, but agian, why try doing anything if you are fighting someone that can get the same amount of priority anytime he chooses?
To me, RC just messes around with CvS2 in so many ways. Not to mention the game is utterly slow and makes it rather uninteresting after a while.
And Marvel2 is a lot more versatile than you give it credit for. You play Marvel2, so you know that while the God 4 are so much more dominating than the teirs of CvS2, but Marvel2 is more of a team game that CvS2 is. While CvS2 may see more characters, Marvel see's a huge amount of variety. There are so many teams that can compete. Not to mention it's not slow like CvS2.
Like I told my friend, if you like CvS2, then more power to you, that's another game you can enjoy. I can't get past the fact of it being slow, there's roll canceling, A groove slows the game down even more, and my groove get's countered by the most dominating groove because it can still demolish K (and P) grooves guard bar. Sure it get's only level 3's, but agian, why try doing anything if you are fighting someone that can get the same amount of priority anytime he chooses?
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
What I really meant was character useage variety, sure every MvC2 Team is different, but everysingle team will have either a Storm/Sent/Mags/Cable in them in someway or someform, so to me, although different teams may provide different roles, it's still pretty much a Top Tier whoring fest. MvC2 was pure, pure luck, period, there was no way a broken game should ever have this much strategy within it, I believe one of MvC2's saving graces is that it's such a fast paced game along with it being ridiculous in the combo system makes it simply fun and entertaining to watch.
I don't honestly really think it's all that bad for CvsS2, like I said, RCing is broken yes, however we've seen things like this so much before. Look at Alpha2 even, that game is nothing but CustomCombo's...infact, CC's break Alpha2 to a gigantic degree the entire top tier list is based upon characters who are great on dishing out CC's, just look at Ken he has a great long reaching AC but what makes him really good is that he has a powerhouse Level 1 CC, even in Alpha3, if you ain't VCing, chances are you won't be getting very far at all in a A3 tournament.
In both those games, both CC's and VC's change the entire aspect of how we play both A2 and A3(I love Alpha2 btw, but I don't really like Alpha3).
I guess you may dislike CvsS2 because of the many things that kills what you would preferably like to use in CvsS2, which I can understand, for I have a buddy who feels the sameway you do as well. However for me, I've just learned to deal with it and move on, so long as at least 25% of the cast can be useable at the high lvls, it's actually quite fun and if there's some solid competetion for it I'm game.
I don't honestly really think it's all that bad for CvsS2, like I said, RCing is broken yes, however we've seen things like this so much before. Look at Alpha2 even, that game is nothing but CustomCombo's...infact, CC's break Alpha2 to a gigantic degree the entire top tier list is based upon characters who are great on dishing out CC's, just look at Ken he has a great long reaching AC but what makes him really good is that he has a powerhouse Level 1 CC, even in Alpha3, if you ain't VCing, chances are you won't be getting very far at all in a A3 tournament.
In both those games, both CC's and VC's change the entire aspect of how we play both A2 and A3(I love Alpha2 btw, but I don't really like Alpha3).
I guess you may dislike CvsS2 because of the many things that kills what you would preferably like to use in CvsS2, which I can understand, for I have a buddy who feels the sameway you do as well. However for me, I've just learned to deal with it and move on, so long as at least 25% of the cast can be useable at the high lvls, it's actually quite fun and if there's some solid competetion for it I'm game.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, every game has something that's really abusive. It's just to me all the con's stack up and overwiegh the pro's of the game, and a majority of them came from RC'ing (Or RC having a part of it) I rather eat an AHVB from Cable for missing something then trying to control space by throwing a projectile, only to be countered and virtually lose a round because of that. And "dislike" is an understatement of my feelings for that game! lol
I really like Alpha 2, but I was rather young when that was in arcades (not to mention hard to find) so I did'nt play it competively. But I'm pretty sure if I played that game with a lot of good people I would really dislike that as well because of how turtle friendly the game is. Alpha 3, same thing pretty much, except there is one guy that loves the game because it's what got him into fighters, so I'll play that with him from time to time. I need to practice V-Karin a bit more, she's fun, but ****, her timing for her combo's and OTG's are just tough.
I really like Alpha 2, but I was rather young when that was in arcades (not to mention hard to find) so I did'nt play it competively. But I'm pretty sure if I played that game with a lot of good people I would really dislike that as well because of how turtle friendly the game is. Alpha 3, same thing pretty much, except there is one guy that loves the game because it's what got him into fighters, so I'll play that with him from time to time. I need to practice V-Karin a bit more, she's fun, but ****, her timing for her combo's and OTG's are just tough.
killa k
Smash Ace
i like dan, sakura, ryu, ken, and akuma
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Alpha2 was great, imo it was the best of the series, because alpha counters where actually good, fireballs where solid (didn't get watered down the further it traveled like in A3 which is pathetic). Another thing was that super specials, especially lvl 1's a prime example would be Shinkuu-Hadoken lvl 1 where actually strong and useful*.
CC's where great, although they where incredible strong. In A3 I believe Capcom tried to add alot of new things, however some of them I just didn't like...I was never a fan of the two button grabs or the whole block gauge, watered down fireballs (seriously Capcom needs to stop doing this) and etc, etc. However I did like the 3-different ism's...that is until we all knew that V-Ism undoubtedly was going to be the best. Although I didn't like A3 as much, I still played it alot.
Seeing Valle vs Daigo back in the day where Valle unleashed the hopkick, HadoukenX2, hopkick repeat was incredible. To me, turtling was never a problem, because I dealt with it so much in Street Fighter II that I'm quite used to it, and imo, turtling in there was at it's strongest...someone like a good Guile player was tough as nails to get in on if you didn't know how to fight up against him or if you didn't have someone like Ryu.
Infact during the CE/HF days I feel that the best players where super-turtlers who spaced/zoned incredibly well (Tomo Ohira is a perfect example), none of that rushdown land a huge combo kind of stuff. That was my personal taste and what I really liked actually.
Overall, I wasn't a big fan of the Alpha series either, however I was I believe around 15-16 yrs old when A2 came around, so I did play it like a mad man. To me, I pretty much followed competition, by then, not alot of players played SF2:HF anymore, only some of the OG's older than me and some of the peeps I knew around my age. Otherwise we always tried to played the new thing that was around, Alpha2 got very, very popular around here, same couldn't be said with Alpha3 though.
Yes, in both Alpha's I played Ryu.
CC's where great, although they where incredible strong. In A3 I believe Capcom tried to add alot of new things, however some of them I just didn't like...I was never a fan of the two button grabs or the whole block gauge, watered down fireballs (seriously Capcom needs to stop doing this) and etc, etc. However I did like the 3-different ism's...that is until we all knew that V-Ism undoubtedly was going to be the best. Although I didn't like A3 as much, I still played it alot.
Seeing Valle vs Daigo back in the day where Valle unleashed the hopkick, HadoukenX2, hopkick repeat was incredible. To me, turtling was never a problem, because I dealt with it so much in Street Fighter II that I'm quite used to it, and imo, turtling in there was at it's strongest...someone like a good Guile player was tough as nails to get in on if you didn't know how to fight up against him or if you didn't have someone like Ryu.
Infact during the CE/HF days I feel that the best players where super-turtlers who spaced/zoned incredibly well (Tomo Ohira is a perfect example), none of that rushdown land a huge combo kind of stuff. That was my personal taste and what I really liked actually.
Overall, I wasn't a big fan of the Alpha series either, however I was I believe around 15-16 yrs old when A2 came around, so I did play it like a mad man. To me, I pretty much followed competition, by then, not alot of players played SF2:HF anymore, only some of the OG's older than me and some of the peeps I knew around my age. Otherwise we always tried to played the new thing that was around, Alpha2 got very, very popular around here, same couldn't be said with Alpha3 though.
Yes, in both Alpha's I played Ryu.
J Flo
Smash Journeyman
I don't take A3 as seriously as I play 3s because I don't want to put in all the time into learning V-ism, since it seems like it's a necessity in order to play at a high level. I still play A3 for fun, though.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Well, V is a really good ISM, but there are a few people that can do well without it. X-Chun is alright (but has a really tough time with Zangief) A-Guy is better than his V counter part, while Dhalsim is good in all ISM's.
The only real reason I can see a reason for not playing the game is because it's hard to find comp for that game, as it's old, glitchy, and out played by other capcom games like 3S, CvS2, Marvel2, heck, even Super Turbo.
The only real reason I can see a reason for not playing the game is because it's hard to find comp for that game, as it's old, glitchy, and out played by other capcom games like 3S, CvS2, Marvel2, heck, even Super Turbo.
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Although a few characters do well with other ism's V-Ism is the most dominant one. Aside from Alpha3, I've been watching more and more vids of Makoto players from Japan, especially when my cousin brought over the SBO DVD's today and we ended up watching it all, took forever, but it was great.
I honestly am beginning to believe that Makoto should be moved up above Ken in 3rdStrike now, yes, it's opinion, however after seeing so many successful 100% stuns from the japanese Makoto players, I can understand why they have her above Ken in their ranking system. Am I the only who thinks so on this?
I honestly am beginning to believe that Makoto should be moved up above Ken in 3rdStrike now, yes, it's opinion, however after seeing so many successful 100% stuns from the japanese Makoto players, I can understand why they have her above Ken in their ranking system. Am I the only who thinks so on this?
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
I thought for the longest time she was top. But I would always hear that she is'nt because the Japanese think "she's too inconsistant and random"
Or so says my friend from FFA. I still think she's top though. Thank goodness for Chun's standing short!
Or so says my friend from FFA. I still think she's top though. Thank goodness for Chun's standing short!
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Some consider her here under Top, however I think she deserves to be on top and even above Ken, the only reason why I believe Japanese players have her above Ken is because the Makoto players there can consistantly land 100% stun on every character. I don't think the US is very far behind, we are closing that gap, imo it's only a matter of time before Makoto goes above Ken.
J Flo
Smash Journeyman
I don't think there are enough Makoto players in the US to make her go above Ken. Ken is way too popular among scrubs, veterans, and pros...just like how Sol is for the GGXX games.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Not enough people even play GGXX to see a huge amount of Sol players. I see a lot of variety of characters in GGXX here in the US.
And the US has someway to go before being really good in 3S. We've only played the game for like 3 years opposed to the Japanese that have played it for like 8 now.
And the US has someway to go before being really good in 3S. We've only played the game for like 3 years opposed to the Japanese that have played it for like 8 now.
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Arlieth is one of the few Makoto players that I've seen here in the US, your right Rockman it's a ways before we get to their lvl, but it's alot better than what it was 2 or even a year ago. After watching and seeing how've we've come along the way, it's better.
My only bitter taste was that if "only" we would've had a chance to have pit our top players from SF2:CE/HF days against the best of Japan, I believe that would've been dead even considering how high the competetion was here during the US back at that time and it was at it's peak without question (although I would've said that Tomo would've taken it all, just my opinion
) but yeah.
My buddy and I are debating at this moment about how the japanese players seemingly drop every fighting game that we the US dominate them at. For example, during the US vs Japan back in forgot when, but they hosted MvC2. That was the only game that we annihilated them at in, after that, shortly after, most japanese players dropped that like a bad habit saying that there was too much brokeness in it or w/e however there was great competetion for a game like XvsSF2 which was 100x more broken than anything MvC2 has to offer.
Before that even was SFA2, alot of play in Japan, however I remember some of our best boys went to go and play them in SFA2(Valle I believe being one of them), and we completely mopped the floor with them in that game, not too long after, they dropped the game, saying that CC's where too broken...yet SFA3 recieved alot of recognition in play even though in SFA3 things like VC practically is CC's.
Although I didn't agree with him, I can see why he thinks the way he does. Just a thought on opinions? Lol, where debating about this as I type here, hahahahaha.
My only bitter taste was that if "only" we would've had a chance to have pit our top players from SF2:CE/HF days against the best of Japan, I believe that would've been dead even considering how high the competetion was here during the US back at that time and it was at it's peak without question (although I would've said that Tomo would've taken it all, just my opinion
) but yeah. My buddy and I are debating at this moment about how the japanese players seemingly drop every fighting game that we the US dominate them at. For example, during the US vs Japan back in forgot when, but they hosted MvC2. That was the only game that we annihilated them at in, after that, shortly after, most japanese players dropped that like a bad habit saying that there was too much brokeness in it or w/e however there was great competetion for a game like XvsSF2 which was 100x more broken than anything MvC2 has to offer.
Before that even was SFA2, alot of play in Japan, however I remember some of our best boys went to go and play them in SFA2(Valle I believe being one of them), and we completely mopped the floor with them in that game, not too long after, they dropped the game, saying that CC's where too broken...yet SFA3 recieved alot of recognition in play even though in SFA3 things like VC practically is CC's.
Although I didn't agree with him, I can see why he thinks the way he does. Just a thought on opinions? Lol, where debating about this as I type here, hahahahaha.
That's kinda funny; it's does seem like the only games we are significantly better than them at, they don't play.
Also, Makoto is definitely debatable for top. However, her options OTG pale in comparison to Ken; then again Yun doesn't really have much either. Chun has EX bird kick which is fairly good in addition to her amazingly ******** throw (the one that can put you in the corner from almost anywhere).
Offensively though, if you guess wrong twice in a row against a good Makoto, odds are you lost.
Also, Makoto is definitely debatable for top. However, her options OTG pale in comparison to Ken; then again Yun doesn't really have much either. Chun has EX bird kick which is fairly good in addition to her amazingly ******** throw (the one that can put you in the corner from almost anywhere).
Offensively though, if you guess wrong twice in a row against a good Makoto, odds are you lost.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Peaches: Care to mention what games that the Japense don't play that we are only "significantly" better than us are? Cause considering that the Japanese have a lot more variety in what fighting games they play competively, it's hard not to find at least a small group in Japan that plays each fighting game, and I'm pretty sure the compitition is just as fierce. Considering they probably know just as much as the rest of the world.
As for the Japanese theory, I just bet if they're not the ones breaking the game, then they don't care for it. I would'nt doubt that if we found RC in CVS2, and we owned them because they would just carelessly throw projectiles or rush down and get countered many times, they would have stopped playing the game long before now! Same goes for T5, I wonder what would have happened if there was no DR!
As for the Japanese theory, I just bet if they're not the ones breaking the game, then they don't care for it. I would'nt doubt that if we found RC in CVS2, and we owned them because they would just carelessly throw projectiles or rush down and get countered many times, they would have stopped playing the game long before now! Same goes for T5, I wonder what would have happened if there was no DR!
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
The thing is, they did play these games alot back then MvC2, A2, and yes, even T5 5.0 recieved alot of attention. MvC2 never saw the light of day in Japan in a high tournament phase against the US after that one big tournament, A2 died so quickly after Valle and them showed them whats up.
I don't necessarily believe that the idea of dropping a game because it's "broken" because let's face it, they play fighting games that are broken as well. My notion, is why drop these games in particular, seriously, why drop Alpha2 at it's time and then all of a sudden then play Alpha3 and have high competetion for it...both of these games are broken to hell. My understanding of the situation is that good competetion died for these particular games shortly after the US dominated them in it.
That to me is what I will never understand, and as for CvsS2, seriously, RCing is a MUST period. If it wasn't for RCing, c.fp with Sagat and Blanka would be too good, infact if I remember correctly, before RCing was really displayed, every team pratically had Sagat and Blanka in it. RCing makes CvsS2 more balanced, to me that's a good thing, today we aren't witness to a Sagat and Blanka fest like it was back in 01.
I know onething, w/out RCing, my Ryu wouldn't stand much of a chance against some of the Upper and Top Tier characters. Thank Goodness for RC Red Hadoken.
I don't necessarily believe that the idea of dropping a game because it's "broken" because let's face it, they play fighting games that are broken as well. My notion, is why drop these games in particular, seriously, why drop Alpha2 at it's time and then all of a sudden then play Alpha3 and have high competetion for it...both of these games are broken to hell. My understanding of the situation is that good competetion died for these particular games shortly after the US dominated them in it.
That to me is what I will never understand, and as for CvsS2, seriously, RCing is a MUST period. If it wasn't for RCing, c.fp with Sagat and Blanka would be too good, infact if I remember correctly, before RCing was really displayed, every team pratically had Sagat and Blanka in it. RCing makes CvsS2 more balanced, to me that's a good thing, today we aren't witness to a Sagat and Blanka fest like it was back in 01.
I know onething, w/out RCing, my Ryu wouldn't stand much of a chance against some of the Upper and Top Tier characters. Thank Goodness for RC Red Hadoken.
It doesn't really matter if there is a small group of devotees in Japan. If there are 100 people here on the same level and only 5 people there, we will mow them down.
We are better at Marvel, by a lot. That's about the only game really. I personally believe that US is also better at Melee and Smash, but that's way too debatable.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Did'nt US win the international tournaments between Japan and Europe for Smash?
Marvel 2: Before the international tournament back in 2000, they were using characters like Anakaris! Then they see what other characters like Cable, Strom, and Sentinal can do, and bam, the game dies in Japan.
Alpha 2: Does well, but then Valle owns them by using an unblockable CC set-up with Ryu. Then the game drops in popularity.
Tekken 5.0: Before SBO (2k5?) Japan *LOVED* Marduck. And they did quite well with him as well, but then NIN just does 1,2,1 Albatross into counter hit. The japanese admitted that "They had no idea how powerful Steve *REALLY* was, and it's kinda stupid and scrubish" (or something to that extent) Again, 5.1 and then DR came out. But if they did'nt, would have 5.0 stopped being played in Japan? The only reason the Japanese (and the Koreans) laugh at 5.0 is (because being compared to DR) indeed just pretty much a scrub Steve fest.
But thinking about some of the other games that are broken, yet the Japanese play.
Alpha 3: Glitchy, random, and just.........random! Yet it's still played in Japan. In fact, it's pretty common to see huge portions of matches just skipped because of how common crouch cancel infinites are. Compared to other games, this game is just horrible in balance and overall gameplay. Yet there is a lot of play and a lot of variety in characters being used. And back when the US first played the Japanese, Daigo was already dominating with V-Gouki, one knockdown from him would just end the round right there, and this was hella early in the game's life cycle. Yet still get's played years later!
CvS2: They discovered RC. I would'nt doubt that if it was the US introduced Japan to RC's in CvS2 in tournament play, they would have dropped it so much sooner.
And I can't believe someone can agrue that RC balances CvS2. Sagat is still good, Blanka is BETTER, and characters that sucked before like Yuri, King, etc. etc. still SUCK! So yeah, Honda can turtle and score a slight damage increase off a headbutt, but Bison and Sakura get a *HUGE* damage increase off a simple scissor kick/hurricane kick. If CvS2's teirs where that bad because of something as simple priority, then it's a sign that the game was just was'nt going to be good. After all, I don't here of a universal glitch in 3S that made Chun-li any weaker cause it counters the priority in her back fierce, and her down mk hit confirm into SAII. F*** CvS2!
You misread what I meant. If they are not the ones breaking the games, then I really wonder if they'll wanna drop it. Think about it.
Marvel 2: Before the international tournament back in 2000, they were using characters like Anakaris! Then they see what other characters like Cable, Strom, and Sentinal can do, and bam, the game dies in Japan.
Alpha 2: Does well, but then Valle owns them by using an unblockable CC set-up with Ryu. Then the game drops in popularity.
Tekken 5.0: Before SBO (2k5?) Japan *LOVED* Marduck. And they did quite well with him as well, but then NIN just does 1,2,1 Albatross into counter hit. The japanese admitted that "They had no idea how powerful Steve *REALLY* was, and it's kinda stupid and scrubish" (or something to that extent) Again, 5.1 and then DR came out. But if they did'nt, would have 5.0 stopped being played in Japan? The only reason the Japanese (and the Koreans) laugh at 5.0 is (because being compared to DR) indeed just pretty much a scrub Steve fest.
But thinking about some of the other games that are broken, yet the Japanese play.
Alpha 3: Glitchy, random, and just.........random! Yet it's still played in Japan. In fact, it's pretty common to see huge portions of matches just skipped because of how common crouch cancel infinites are. Compared to other games, this game is just horrible in balance and overall gameplay. Yet there is a lot of play and a lot of variety in characters being used. And back when the US first played the Japanese, Daigo was already dominating with V-Gouki, one knockdown from him would just end the round right there, and this was hella early in the game's life cycle. Yet still get's played years later!
CvS2: They discovered RC. I would'nt doubt that if it was the US introduced Japan to RC's in CvS2 in tournament play, they would have dropped it so much sooner.
And I can't believe someone can agrue that RC balances CvS2. Sagat is still good, Blanka is BETTER, and characters that sucked before like Yuri, King, etc. etc. still SUCK! So yeah, Honda can turtle and score a slight damage increase off a headbutt, but Bison and Sakura get a *HUGE* damage increase off a simple scissor kick/hurricane kick. If CvS2's teirs where that bad because of something as simple priority, then it's a sign that the game was just was'nt going to be good. After all, I don't here of a universal glitch in 3S that made Chun-li any weaker cause it counters the priority in her back fierce, and her down mk hit confirm into SAII. F*** CvS2!
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
RCing balances things alot more, god forbid what I would do up against c.fp's and Blanka w/out RCing, my Ryu would get absolutely ***** without RCing. With RC, I'm actually able to RC RedFireball decently with all the rolling, dodging garbage you have. Before RCing, it was nothing but Blanka and Sagat.
With RCing you still see Blanka alot (He's a Beast period) but Sagat is no longer as stupid good as he once was, before RC started to dominate, Sagat was a complete monster, there was no answer to his c.fp at all. On a note for King, she had it comming, in CvsS1 she was elite, so she was supposed to be nerfed, I would be ****ed if she was her CvsS1 version. Yuri isn't all that great, but guys like Kyo, Iori, Geese are all very good, I believe High Tier potential. Without RCing it would be nothing but c.fp's all d.amn day, that is far more ghey then with having RCing around, w/out RCing, a character like Ryu would have no chance against pratically ALL of the top tiers, with RCing, he has a chance...E.Honda is not the only character that benefited from RCing.
With RCing you still see Blanka alot (He's a Beast period) but Sagat is no longer as stupid good as he once was, before RC started to dominate, Sagat was a complete monster, there was no answer to his c.fp at all. On a note for King, she had it comming, in CvsS1 she was elite, so she was supposed to be nerfed, I would be ****ed if she was her CvsS1 version. Yuri isn't all that great, but guys like Kyo, Iori, Geese are all very good, I believe High Tier potential. Without RCing it would be nothing but c.fp's all d.amn day, that is far more ghey then with having RCing around, w/out RCing, a character like Ryu would have no chance against pratically ALL of the top tiers, with RCing, he has a chance...E.Honda is not the only character that benefited from RCing.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
You truly overestimate how powerful C.FP was. There were awnsers to it, it was just really tough. And of course everyone used Sagat back then. He was easy to play, good damage, and C.FP. But it's the same thing with every game. Especially with Capcom games. There will always be a clear overly easy to play character that is good. 3S had Chun, MvC2 had Cable, Alpha 3 had Dhalsim. All easy to play, good damage off something ridiculiously easy to pull off. So you will see a bunch of those characters in those games early in their life cycles. It's the same case in every game. CvS2 is no different. Again, arguing that a game breaking glitch "balances" out a game's natural problems is just a sign the game is trash. It takes a *GLITCH* to make other characters "compete". Those overly easy characters can also use that "game balancing glitch" to their advantage. A red hadouken roll cancelled won't help you against a roll cancelled tiger knee. It just puts you in a bad situation where you recover after Sagat with no invincibility and open for punishment. And Blanka was really good back then, but he's just ******** with the ability of RC. RC electricty is the best RC in the game, given to a character that did'nt need it at all. Sounds like balance to me.
As for King, she was'nt nerfed, she was severly butt *****. And while she was good in CvS, she did'nt need to be toned down that bad. Nakoruru did'nt get the shaft that bad and she was hands down the most broken character in CvS 1. But many characters got random nerf's from CvS to CvS2 even when they did'nt need it so I guess it's alright.
As for King, she was'nt nerfed, she was severly butt *****. And while she was good in CvS, she did'nt need to be toned down that bad. Nakoruru did'nt get the shaft that bad and she was hands down the most broken character in CvS 1. But many characters got random nerf's from CvS to CvS2 even when they did'nt need it so I guess it's alright.
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Dude, c.fp was lame, no if's and's or butt's, Blanka and Sagat where stupid good pre-RC days. Ask any top lvled CvsS2 player today, and they will tell you outright RC balanced the game period. So what if a glitch helped tip the scale in balance...what's the point? Maybe we should call MvC2 a trashy game, since it is basically built entirely upon glitches, and a group of Big 4 dominating the scene, what can a character like Ryu honestly do up against someone like Magneto? The gap between a middle tier character vs Magneto is a million times larger than the gap between Blanka vs a middle tier character in CvsS2.
As for Sagat, he just didn't dominate before RC came into the limelight, he completely annihilated the competetion along with Blanka. Characters like Ryu in the likes basically had no chance in the given world before RCing started to dominate. Now with it, characters who didn't have a chance, actually do have a chance, and you have the saying to me that this isn't good? Yes, I root for RCing because it helped the gameplay. Btw, Sagat actually dropped down in the CvsS2 Top Tier listing, before Pre-RC days, he was considered next to Blanka. Someone like Chunli, Dhalsim have pratically stayed the same within the tier listing, the only exception is Cable who dropped down to the #4 seed.
Yes, RC Hadoken vs RC Knee would mean Knee>Hadoken, but that's one out of so many, many cases, in alot of ways Fireballs lost almost all of it's flare due to things like rolling. However with RC Fireballs, they actually give it some decency, buffers, w/o RC shooting a Fireball is basically throwing your lifebar to the dogs. RC Hadoken, especially RC lp Shakunetsu is great up against Blanka when he's not crounching or moving back. RC Hurricane, especially the short one is another great example, it's actually great on whiffs, and it's great on knockdown's, against other rc's, and even pokes.
So all in all, this helped out a character like Ryu, and most importantly many characters overall. RCing was a glitch that actually improved the balance of CvsS2, I could see if you make claims like something from SC3 where VCing just completely makes the game pointless, where characters who where trash to begin with don't even benefit from VCing at all, however within CvsS2 where pratically everysingle character benefited from RCing.
Nakoruru is still solid, but shouldn't that be a good thing? Nakoruru and King where stupid in CvsS1, they NEEDED and where toned down, King took the blunt, but it happens. Just look at Sean from 2I to 3S, he wasn't even the best character to begin with and he's at the bottom of the barrel, it ain't fair but it happens.
I also see no point in arguing about King and Nakoruru's tier placements since Top Lvled characters from previous fighting games usually get nerfed(T4Jin to T5Jin, CE.Bison to HF.Bison, SSBPikachu to SSBMPikachu), you should know this already. So why bother bringing the nerfing of King up? How would 3S players like it if Ibuki didn't get nerfed from 2I, she would completely mop the floor up against Yun, Chun and Ken, and to make it worse she would be able to do it w/out Meter however SA1 just makes her even more of a Goddess, or if Gouki still had all the high damage potential he did from 2I with his high priority DiveKick but w/out a crappy stunbar or lifebar?
What about Sean players...they should be kicking themselves in the croch right now...for real, what I would give to have the combobility of Ryu from 2I and 2stockdenjin+shorter denjin superbar intact going into 3S. However, it was to be expected.
The point is RCing just didn't benefit Blanka, he's the only character who stayed Top Top with the introduction of RCing, Sagat actually went down. Blanka is the ONLY character who stayed elite, and many top players consider A-Groove Bison just as good as Blanka imo a full metered A-Groove Bison is the single best character in the game of CvsS2. The mere fact other characters have benefitted from this is something that I am happily and willingly to except. RCing isn't the Be All End All glitch, get over it seriously.
As for Sagat, he just didn't dominate before RC came into the limelight, he completely annihilated the competetion along with Blanka. Characters like Ryu in the likes basically had no chance in the given world before RCing started to dominate. Now with it, characters who didn't have a chance, actually do have a chance, and you have the saying to me that this isn't good? Yes, I root for RCing because it helped the gameplay. Btw, Sagat actually dropped down in the CvsS2 Top Tier listing, before Pre-RC days, he was considered next to Blanka. Someone like Chunli, Dhalsim have pratically stayed the same within the tier listing, the only exception is Cable who dropped down to the #4 seed.
Yes, RC Hadoken vs RC Knee would mean Knee>Hadoken, but that's one out of so many, many cases, in alot of ways Fireballs lost almost all of it's flare due to things like rolling. However with RC Fireballs, they actually give it some decency, buffers, w/o RC shooting a Fireball is basically throwing your lifebar to the dogs. RC Hadoken, especially RC lp Shakunetsu is great up against Blanka when he's not crounching or moving back. RC Hurricane, especially the short one is another great example, it's actually great on whiffs, and it's great on knockdown's, against other rc's, and even pokes.
So all in all, this helped out a character like Ryu, and most importantly many characters overall. RCing was a glitch that actually improved the balance of CvsS2, I could see if you make claims like something from SC3 where VCing just completely makes the game pointless, where characters who where trash to begin with don't even benefit from VCing at all, however within CvsS2 where pratically everysingle character benefited from RCing.
Nakoruru is still solid, but shouldn't that be a good thing? Nakoruru and King where stupid in CvsS1, they NEEDED and where toned down, King took the blunt, but it happens. Just look at Sean from 2I to 3S, he wasn't even the best character to begin with and he's at the bottom of the barrel, it ain't fair but it happens.
I also see no point in arguing about King and Nakoruru's tier placements since Top Lvled characters from previous fighting games usually get nerfed(T4Jin to T5Jin, CE.Bison to HF.Bison, SSBPikachu to SSBMPikachu), you should know this already. So why bother bringing the nerfing of King up? How would 3S players like it if Ibuki didn't get nerfed from 2I, she would completely mop the floor up against Yun, Chun and Ken, and to make it worse she would be able to do it w/out Meter however SA1 just makes her even more of a Goddess, or if Gouki still had all the high damage potential he did from 2I with his high priority DiveKick but w/out a crappy stunbar or lifebar?
What about Sean players...they should be kicking themselves in the croch right now...for real, what I would give to have the combobility of Ryu from 2I and 2stockdenjin+shorter denjin superbar intact going into 3S. However, it was to be expected.
The point is RCing just didn't benefit Blanka, he's the only character who stayed Top Top with the introduction of RCing, Sagat actually went down. Blanka is the ONLY character who stayed elite, and many top players consider A-Groove Bison just as good as Blanka imo a full metered A-Groove Bison is the single best character in the game of CvsS2. The mere fact other characters have benefitted from this is something that I am happily and willingly to except. RCing isn't the Be All End All glitch, get over it seriously.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
First of all, MvC2 is trash! What makes you think that the game is actually any good? It's balance? The glitches? Countless infinites? It's popular because of the fact that people like the game. That still does'nt change the fact that it's unbalanced, broken, and glitchy.
One thing that I did like is how you mentioned that CvS2's balance is far better than MvC2's. But then you say that pre-RC CvS2 no character really stood a chance against Blanka and Sagat. I cannot really understand why you would think that is true. If it was, then K Groove would be rather worthless cause characters cannot take advantage of what they need to compete. Also, using projectiles was a lot less risky pre-RC days. You did'nt really run the risk of being hit out of your recovery animation unless you were fighting against someone with a super. But RC completly ignores that. That is how Honda benefits. If he sees a projectile, he's going to punish your character regardless if you RC'ed or not. The only true way I can see is if you read your opponent into doing a random poke or something so that you can outprioritize his attempt. But if you read wrong, you're going to hurt. And all for what? A slight pixel of life? Talk about a hella lame risk/reward situation.
Also, Sagat is still top regardless. He got lowered by like what? One character? Two characters at best? By characters that make it easier to land their damaging customs. RC did'nt benefit the rest of the cast enough to make him drop that far. Honda, Geese, Cammy, Kyo, Iori, Ryu, etc. etc. still lose to Sagat. But Bison and Sakura can give him a lot of trouble now. The only other noteable mention would be Chun since she can pin him down with RC spinning bird kick traps. But it's hard to set up, and easy to get out of if Sagat is in a groove with guard cancel. Not to mention just defend and parrying.
Now, if everyone had a flexable A-Groove combo that was damaging and can be used out of a effictive RC moved (like Bison and Sak) then maybe RC could have been justified (since the lower tiered characters would get something more out of a move besides slight damage and maybe a knockdown in some cases). But that is'nt the case. RC did'nt do enough for the characters that really needed it, it just gave characters that *DID'NT* need em' better options, and also slowed the game down to a borefest.
I also remember Valle talking about why CvS (in general) is a s*** series in general. And he pretty much said the same thing I'm saying right now. Not that I'm saying I just took his opinions, this is how I truly feel about CvS2. But there are others that felt that CvS2 was better pre-RC. Sure Sagat and Blanka may have been on way too many teams. But thanks to RC, you get to see a lot of Bison and Sak's now. And a few mid teirs by players like Buk, Combofiend, Kindevu. But not everyone plays the game that elite.
As for toning down characters. Well, I feel that many of the makers can do a good job of properly toning down top teir characters. Instead of taking 90 percent of their tools and make them utter s***. A good example would be Steve from Tekken 5.0 to Tekken DR, Ryu from 2I to 3S (same with Ibuki) to name a few. But I think it has something to do with lazyiness. There are just some nerfs in fighting games that just do not make sense whatsoever.
One thing that I did like is how you mentioned that CvS2's balance is far better than MvC2's. But then you say that pre-RC CvS2 no character really stood a chance against Blanka and Sagat. I cannot really understand why you would think that is true. If it was, then K Groove would be rather worthless cause characters cannot take advantage of what they need to compete. Also, using projectiles was a lot less risky pre-RC days. You did'nt really run the risk of being hit out of your recovery animation unless you were fighting against someone with a super. But RC completly ignores that. That is how Honda benefits. If he sees a projectile, he's going to punish your character regardless if you RC'ed or not. The only true way I can see is if you read your opponent into doing a random poke or something so that you can outprioritize his attempt. But if you read wrong, you're going to hurt. And all for what? A slight pixel of life? Talk about a hella lame risk/reward situation.
Also, Sagat is still top regardless. He got lowered by like what? One character? Two characters at best? By characters that make it easier to land their damaging customs. RC did'nt benefit the rest of the cast enough to make him drop that far. Honda, Geese, Cammy, Kyo, Iori, Ryu, etc. etc. still lose to Sagat. But Bison and Sakura can give him a lot of trouble now. The only other noteable mention would be Chun since she can pin him down with RC spinning bird kick traps. But it's hard to set up, and easy to get out of if Sagat is in a groove with guard cancel. Not to mention just defend and parrying.
Now, if everyone had a flexable A-Groove combo that was damaging and can be used out of a effictive RC moved (like Bison and Sak) then maybe RC could have been justified (since the lower tiered characters would get something more out of a move besides slight damage and maybe a knockdown in some cases). But that is'nt the case. RC did'nt do enough for the characters that really needed it, it just gave characters that *DID'NT* need em' better options, and also slowed the game down to a borefest.
I also remember Valle talking about why CvS (in general) is a s*** series in general. And he pretty much said the same thing I'm saying right now. Not that I'm saying I just took his opinions, this is how I truly feel about CvS2. But there are others that felt that CvS2 was better pre-RC. Sure Sagat and Blanka may have been on way too many teams. But thanks to RC, you get to see a lot of Bison and Sak's now. And a few mid teirs by players like Buk, Combofiend, Kindevu. But not everyone plays the game that elite.
As for toning down characters. Well, I feel that many of the makers can do a good job of properly toning down top teir characters. Instead of taking 90 percent of their tools and make them utter s***. A good example would be Steve from Tekken 5.0 to Tekken DR, Ryu from 2I to 3S (same with Ibuki) to name a few. But I think it has something to do with lazyiness. There are just some nerfs in fighting games that just do not make sense whatsoever.
OneWingSephiroth
Smash Journeyman
Sigh...RC doesn't gimp the game as badly as you may point it out to be, the only thing I keep hearing is E. Honda this, E.Honda that. Seriously, E.Honda was not the only character that got a boot from this. The mere fact that Daigo can play well with an N-Groove Team Shoto gives you some notion that now in the RC days, even that is possible. I'm sorry to say, but CvsS2's balance is still better than MvC2 wether you'd like to agree on it or not, even before Pre-RC Days, I'd rather do a Team Shoto vs. Blanka/Sagat/Cammy Pre-RC Days then a Team Shoto vs MSP. (No hate towards MvC2, I still love the game to pieces)
CvsS2 is not the only fighting game in which you read wrong and can get screwed for life threatening damage. In 3S, if I play against someone like Chunli, I can throw out one single whiff or a poke that gets parried and get a c.mk>SAIII and that hurts. In SSF2T, if I'm fighting against someone like E.Honda, Balrog, Ryu, or Chunli...if they have a super, one simple mess up, shooting a projectile at the wrong time, can mean that I lose a Half-Life dealing Super Special, and to make it worse, both E.Honda and Chunli can stock their super. In Tekken5 if I throw out a +frame jab, I can lose 60%+ life because someone throw out a crush attack that "supposedly" beat out my +frame jab...so what of it about RCing?
In a matchup like Ryu vs Sagat, yes Ryu may still lose out to Sagat overall but I like the matchup 10x better than it is with RC around then w/out RC around because its more winnable then before. Because this actually means that Sagat has to be careful, because I can RC Hadoken, I can RC lk hurricane, it's situational on both sides, however it's there, so if you c.fp, I can actually punish you and not lose more life than you for once. The point is, Sagat is no longer as good as he once was Pre-RC days, which to me is anything but better.
RCing has helped make characters who had absolutely NO chance, actually have a Chance. I could see if you just saw random players/scrubs saying RCing balanced the game but when even top lvled CvsS2 players say that more characters can be played due to RCing.
On the notion of the game being slow, I'm sorry to say, but CvsS2 plays far more "oldschool" like then new generation. So sorry the game doesn't involve completely upon rushdown, but on the mere fact that it involves alot of spacing/zoning much like that of OGSF2 style. You also complain alot about RC, and yet the very notion of your statement about Chunli's RC setup being difficult.
Which leads me to another thing, RCing isn't the Be All End All Tatic, I could imagine if you get yourself RCed all day(Seriously if you do, that means your not very good at CvsS2 yet then), everyday, however even at the highest levels, it becomes incredibly difficult to setup RC's, or to try and RC everything on the board.
Not everything is completely built upon RCing, however the matter of the fact that Top Lvled players even say that RCing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be gives out the notion that it's not worth complaining about.
With RCing, I've actually witnessed some Middle Tier play, before hand, it was nothing but Top whoring, and RCing is a bad thing? Please man, this has made the game more enjoyable, I don't mind the turtling game, because that's just like OGSF2, you honestly think CvsS2 is "bad", OGSF2 turtling is 1000x worse/more powerful than CvsS2. Infact Tomo Ohira was the Best SF2 player was because he had the strongest turtling game.
Yes, a simple glitch helped to balance the game, why complain, more characters can be played, matches aren't as lopsided as they once where (only exception is Blanka)...I prefer it this way then Pre-RC Days. Infact, I will say this, I actually dislike Parrying in 3S, SuperSpecials in ST, Crush System in T5 moreso than I dislike RCing in CvsS2.
CvsS2 is not the only fighting game in which you read wrong and can get screwed for life threatening damage. In 3S, if I play against someone like Chunli, I can throw out one single whiff or a poke that gets parried and get a c.mk>SAIII and that hurts. In SSF2T, if I'm fighting against someone like E.Honda, Balrog, Ryu, or Chunli...if they have a super, one simple mess up, shooting a projectile at the wrong time, can mean that I lose a Half-Life dealing Super Special, and to make it worse, both E.Honda and Chunli can stock their super. In Tekken5 if I throw out a +frame jab, I can lose 60%+ life because someone throw out a crush attack that "supposedly" beat out my +frame jab...so what of it about RCing?
In a matchup like Ryu vs Sagat, yes Ryu may still lose out to Sagat overall but I like the matchup 10x better than it is with RC around then w/out RC around because its more winnable then before. Because this actually means that Sagat has to be careful, because I can RC Hadoken, I can RC lk hurricane, it's situational on both sides, however it's there, so if you c.fp, I can actually punish you and not lose more life than you for once. The point is, Sagat is no longer as good as he once was Pre-RC days, which to me is anything but better.
RCing has helped make characters who had absolutely NO chance, actually have a Chance. I could see if you just saw random players/scrubs saying RCing balanced the game but when even top lvled CvsS2 players say that more characters can be played due to RCing.
On the notion of the game being slow, I'm sorry to say, but CvsS2 plays far more "oldschool" like then new generation. So sorry the game doesn't involve completely upon rushdown, but on the mere fact that it involves alot of spacing/zoning much like that of OGSF2 style. You also complain alot about RC, and yet the very notion of your statement about Chunli's RC setup being difficult.
Which leads me to another thing, RCing isn't the Be All End All Tatic, I could imagine if you get yourself RCed all day(Seriously if you do, that means your not very good at CvsS2 yet then), everyday, however even at the highest levels, it becomes incredibly difficult to setup RC's, or to try and RC everything on the board.
Not everything is completely built upon RCing, however the matter of the fact that Top Lvled players even say that RCing isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be gives out the notion that it's not worth complaining about.
With RCing, I've actually witnessed some Middle Tier play, before hand, it was nothing but Top whoring, and RCing is a bad thing? Please man, this has made the game more enjoyable, I don't mind the turtling game, because that's just like OGSF2, you honestly think CvsS2 is "bad", OGSF2 turtling is 1000x worse/more powerful than CvsS2. Infact Tomo Ohira was the Best SF2 player was because he had the strongest turtling game.
Yes, a simple glitch helped to balance the game, why complain, more characters can be played, matches aren't as lopsided as they once where (only exception is Blanka)...I prefer it this way then Pre-RC Days. Infact, I will say this, I actually dislike Parrying in 3S, SuperSpecials in ST, Crush System in T5 moreso than I dislike RCing in CvsS2.
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
First of all, the only reason I mention Honda is because he's like the posterboy example of a low teir character getting better with RC. I am fully aware that there are other characters that benefit from RC.
And also did I no where mention that MvC2 is more balanced that CvS2. You and I both know that's a flat out untrue.
The only reason I mentioned reading wrong is because you claim to like RC'ing red hadoukens with Ryu. But you still properly use it, and if you do, you get like a little damage off it and a knockdown that's not going to be really benefical (unless you are near a corner). Why just not use a SRK?
OK, yes, Ryu get's like a new option, it may be somewhat effective and somewhat situational. Sure some mid teir get used now cause they can pretty much give any random special move the priority of a level 3 super. But most mid teir characters were solid characters already. Cammy, Geese, Claw, Guile, Iori, Kyo, Chun, Hibiki can all do hella well in K-Groove. This means they can still fight well without the ability to RC their moves. Not one a single character mentioned above is really considered top. Maybe like Cammy cause she has good priority and easy to play, but she would be on the bottom of top for sure.
I'm not talking about spacing. I'm talking about 2 characters sitting on their a**es for 10 seconds cause they are too scared to do anything in fear of just being hit out of it or whatever. I have seen it in quite of few matches. Japanese or US. It makes watching Ohnuki's vs Justin Wongs 3S Chun mirror match at Evo 2k4(?) hella interesting when all they are doing is just back fierce for 20 seconds.
And I did'nt mean Chun's SBK trap difficult to set up, I meant to say that it's rather situational. Sorry for that confusion.
Of course RC is'nt the only thing needed to win in CvS2. But the glitch itself definetly made one hell of an impact on the game. And it shows. It's undeniable. I understand where you are coming from. The thing though is that I don't share your opinion. I see RC as making a stupid game even stupider. Again, while low teir got a slight benefit, it's not enough. I much rather put up with just Sagat and his C.FP priority then easier to land A-Groove CC's, overall slower pace, all the benefits that the upper teired characters got, and the mere fact that my main groove K (since I don't care for the game, I stick to basic garbage) struggles so much against A Groove.
Like I said previously, if you like CvS2. Good for you, I think taking a crap is a lot funner than playing CvS2. And so is talking about it. Har har har!
being a makoto player in the ever dominant and popular southern california 3s scene, she is very good. but it's a matter of high risk/high reward. there's a saying among top makoto players: "guess right twice or trice and you win." which is very true, if you end up guessing right a few times it could lead into a lot of damage and most likely a stun which would inturn lead to the victory of the round/match.
as someone mentioned earlier, the reason why makoto isn't higher on the tier is because she's too inconsistent and random, or so the japanese say. i love playing the guessing game of makoto and smacking people hard, but i also get ***** pretty bad when i don't guess right.
needless to say i'll be at evo playing 3s.
M3RC
Smash Apprentice
Question: In evo tournaments what console and controllers do they use to play sf3?
Ken34
Smash Journeyman
last i heard they use PS2 consoles. its recommended you bring your own controller/arcade stick. but i know alot of original arcade players(mainly japanese players) dont like the PS2 version because the timings are different than on the japanese arcade.
as for Makoto being better than ken, i would have to disagree, Makoto is a great character and whoever said "guess right guess trice" is correct, you have to take chances with Makoto to inflict damage, not so with Ken, ken has VERY good normals, they are very fast(like makotos) but have better reach/priority. but i will admit, a makoto player scares me alot more than a Ken player, cause there is that chance they can land that 100% stun combo.
M3RC
Smash Apprentice
whoa....they use ps2's? I didnt even know they made 3rd strike for ps2. Mind blowing revelation. Also, where can I get an arcade stick?
rockman2k1
Smash Journeyman
Japanese usually don't care for PS2 cause the simple fact that Japanse play on arcade a majority of the time. It's not that the PS2 version is slightly different, it's that it's pretty uncommon to play at people's houses in Japan.
Also, yes, the PS2 version is slightly faster than the Arcade version, while the XBox version is just slightly faster than the PS2 version. That and I remember Urien's Agies Reflector doing an extra point of damage. It's still a really really good port of the game.
Also, there are many places to get sticks.
Massystems.com-A pretty good place to order, makes american style sticks with happ parts, you can only order 8 way (analog) sticks and you need to place a seperate order if you want a perfect 360 sitck (or digital).
Hori's-These replicate the japanese style normally seen in Japanese arcades. Here is an example.
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-m-77-a-49-en-15-arcade+sticks-70-10up.html
Also, yes, the PS2 version is slightly faster than the Arcade version, while the XBox version is just slightly faster than the PS2 version. That and I remember Urien's Agies Reflector doing an extra point of damage. It's still a really really good port of the game.
Also, there are many places to get sticks.
Massystems.com-A pretty good place to order, makes american style sticks with happ parts, you can only order 8 way (analog) sticks and you need to place a seperate order if you want a perfect 360 sitck (or digital).
Hori's-These replicate the japanese style normally seen in Japanese arcades. Here is an example.
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-m-77-a-49-en-15-arcade+sticks-70-10up.html