Stop drawing conclusions based on a minor demo

[nealdt]

To everyone making grand proclamations like "Metaknight is top tier", "Fox sucks", "the game won't be competitive", etc:

STFU. Seriously.

You're drawing all these very poor conclusions based on a 2 min game demo without a full cast and only on a select number of stages, with items on high and a very poor control scheme to work with.

Sure, Metaknight looks pretty ****, but guess what? 95% of all kills people get in the demo ARE FROM ITEMS. We have no idea if MK can kill without them. Remember that dude named Young Link? Lots of combo potential but struggled to get final blows? Hmmmmmmzzzz.

Sure, Fox's shine doesn't have the same properties as Melee, so stop ****ing playing him like you're in Melee. People playing the demo are fighting the classic controller as much as each other, so it's no wonder they aren't getting Fox up to full speed. Saying "Fox sucks now" is absolutely ********.

Sure, they got rid of wavedashing. Get over it. There's still some method of wavelanding, and we already figured out a new technique in the horribly named "Ink dropping".

Sure, most aerial attacks seem to auto l-cancel. Maybe that's because Nintendo turned on auto cancelling for the demo to make it faster and more approachable for the masses? There are moves in trailer videos that are definitely NOT l-cancelled, so this is a viable explanation.

Ugh. Can we please get over ourselves and stop trying to be the first person to predict so-and-so's top tier? It's pure hubris. With apologies to the people who went to E For All (like me), you guys are all terrible at Brawl and you have no idea what makes a good or bad character. You aren't even playing with rules that even approach a competitive setup. So keep your opinions to yourself and focus more on how the game plays, how the physics work, and, for the love of god...

whether the game is fun (it is)

 

[cF=)]

Amen nealdt, marry me.

 

[Masterem243]

You will have that ability to play like it's Melee when you have access to a Gamecube controller. Also, some obvious conclusions can be drawn, such as DK and Diddy Kong are gonna fight Bowser in the Subspace Emmisary, and that there are some unrevealed Assist Trophies and Final Smashes that are available. Even though there are unreleased characters, there are conclusions that can be made from the Demo.

 

[GOTM]

that is the smartest post i have ever heard....

 

[Card]

Sure, Fox's shine doesn't have the same properties as Melee, so stop ****ing playing him like you're in Melee.

I'd also like to say... stop ****ing comparing Brawl as if it was Melee.



/cheer nealdt

 

[Zek]

I agree with you except about L-cancelling. Why would Nintendo remove it from the demo when it's going to be in the final game? That makes no sense at all. Smash is plenty approachable as it is, newbies to the game don't even know the difference. Don't misunderstand, nobody is saying that every move has trivial lag, just that L-cancelling was removed and many aerials had their lag reduced to compensate. There are still aerials that leave you wide open like Link's Down+A. And for all we know they changed that since the trailers were made. I think it makes perfect sense that L-cancelling is gone because it gives the devs more control over the strength of aerials, and thus character balance in general. It also addresses latency issues in online play.

 

[Conformal_Invariance]

Sure, they got rid of wavedashing. Get over it. There's still some method of wavelanding, and we already figured out a new technique in the horribly named "Ink dropping".

Sure, most aerial attacks seem to auto l-cancel. Maybe that's because Nintendo turned on auto cancelling for the demo to make it faster and more approachable for the masses? There are moves in trailer videos that are definitely NOT l-cancelled, so this is a viable explanation.

Hahaha. I agree on the name thing. I'm personally more fond of tumblecancelling...

Ahem.

As for the L-cancelling thing, while it being viable, it's not necessarily true. It is, however, the most outstanding theory on the matter thus far.

I also find myself in agreement with most of your posts.

People have been harping on Ike.

I'll judge him for myself when a controller is in my hands and Brawl in my Wii.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Copied and pasted from Gimpy's thread..

I don't see what everyone is whining about. It's a new game. I want it to be different from melee but still awesome. As long as there's DI, and the game isn't filled with characters that are too weak or too powerful relative to each other, there'll be room for competition.

Different characters are going to be good. There's probably at least another 20-30 characters that were not in the demo. We don't know yet how good they are in relation to the ones in the demo. Just because Metaknight seems powerful in relation to the demo characters doesn't mean that he will be in the final version.

Just because aerial lag is reduced in general doesn't mean that no one will ever get grabbed again. As long as there is a shield, there'll be ways to pressure your opponent into shielding so you can grab them. If they always buffer a sidestep after approaching with an aerial, that'll be punishable too. And who is to say that there won't be new advanced techniques discovered? they've only had the demo of the game for one day. Many of melee's advanced techniques took years to discover and implement.

 

[nealdt]

About l-cancelling: it's just my opinion, and definitely not a conclusion . I think there are solid reasons why they MIGHT have done as I posted, but I of course cannot be certain.

A quote from the almighty King:

Character matchups, analysis and strengths/weaknesses should be taken with a grain of salt, to say the least. One CA community has played the Demo of the game for 1 day with not even a dozen of the characters, on a handful of stages, with a 2 minute time limit/4-player FFA's with items on very high and only 2 controller setups, the controls which seem overly-sensitive. I'll go out on a limb and say that our perspective of the potential of competitive Brawl is...currently skewed, as it were.

Better to focus on breaking the potential of the Demo's physics engine to see what kind of tricks we'll be able to employ across the board, first. And lol...seriously, with only 11 characters, trying to make any kind of tier list speculation will prove to be a waste of time, and a waste of hype. I seem to recall an old SBR thread early on about Mario being Top Tier in Melee, the first couple months of it's release.

The tactics we discover this weekend will help shape the metagame later on. In the grand scope of things, we know NOTHING so far.

P.S. : I vote for renaming the Ink Drop "Dash Canceling", lol. At least that could be 1 thing in brawl that sounds technical, lol.

King Out

 

[volbound1700]

Didn't take at least a year after Melee came out for people to learn the tiers and what characters really were the best. A lot of people I know still use Pikachu a lot thinking he is the best because he was really good on 64. One guy even got mad when he keep getting beat with Pikachu and I told him Pikachu isn't the best character and to try Fox or Falco or Link.

 

[Kimosabae]

P.S. : I vote for renaming the Ink Drop "Dash Canceling", lol. At least that could be 1 thing in brawl that sounds technical, lol.

I vote we rename Ink Drop to "Dash Canceling" due to the simple fact that naming techniques after players is pretentious and silly. Furthermore, a more straight forward title does less to obscure the understanding of what the technique is supposed to accomplish -- it's just more efficient.


-SynikaL

 

[Erave]

Samus' Missiles have no knockback. That's the only major thing that bugs me.

 

[LOST_815]

even her power missiles?

 

[TheCatPhysician]

I also vote we just call it something like dash-cancelling because it's really simple and intuitive. im sure most casual players will even figure it out and use it, even if they don't realize it. you just hold back and do your move

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I don't agree with you. Taking out L cancelling and wavedashing makes this game suck for me, Im gonna play it but im not gonna play it competitivly, why even bother if its practically a movie now

 

[gnosis]

Dylan, you say the most overblown ****, lol.

 

[Kittah4]

I don't agree with you. Taking out L cancelling and wavedashing makes this game suck for me, Im gonna play it but im not gonna play it competitivly, why even bother if its practically a movie now

After one day of impressions on an unfinished demo from reports from others, you're not going to play it competitively? That just sounds like trolling to me.

I'm not sure how I feel about L-cancelling being gone myself, but if you can and should do it for every air move anyway, why not make it automatic? There are times when you should dodge and should attack, but there is never a time when you should be utterly defenseless for longer.

 

[SantaClaus]

Didn't take at least a year after Melee came out for people to learn the tiers and what characters really were the best. A lot of people I know still use Pikachu a lot thinking he is the best because he was really good on 64. One guy even got mad when he keep getting beat with Pikachu and I told him Pikachu isn't the best character and to try Fox or Falco or Link.

for the record..link is not very good in melee.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's strange that everyone makes assumptions the instant they see something new on the demo. Anything on the demo is considered unofficial UNLESS it's shown on Smashbros.com.

 

[Chill]

We've already like 8 topics on this and it won't do anything except to create another topic on the same subject. Please just close the whiny topics and duplicate "Waaah I can't wavedash" threads.If people want to complain at least keep it in the same place.

 

[Stak]

I don't agree with you. Taking out L cancelling and wavedashing makes this game suck for me, Im gonna play it but im not gonna play it competitivly, why even bother if its practically a movie now

 

[Darkurai]

and focus more on how the game plays, how the physics work, and, for the love of god...

whether the game is fun (it is)

Are you a competitive player?

'cause if you are, I just got a hell of a lot of respect for competitive players as a whole (individually, I still hate most of them).

@Stak: Greatest post ever.

 

[marthmaster04]

I don't agree with you. Taking out L cancelling and wavedashing makes this game suck for me, Im gonna play it but im not gonna play it competitivly, why even bother if its practically a movie now

I don't give a rats *** about wavedashing, I don't need it. lol But L-cancelling being gone? Just drive a stake in competitive smashes heart plz. in b4 auto cancelling. (which there obviously isnt)>_>

 

[TheDownSyndromeKid]

@Stak: *golf clap*

Very nice, sir. Very nice.

 

[Mama]

To everyone making grand proclamations like "Metaknight is top tier", "Fox sucks", "the game won't be competitive", etc:

STFU. Seriously.

You're drawing all these very poor conclusions based on a 2 min game demo without a full cast and only on a select number of stages, with items on high and a very poor control scheme to work with.

Sure, Metaknight looks pretty ****, but guess what? 95% of all kills people get in the demo ARE FROM ITEMS. We have no idea if MK can kill without them. Remember that dude named Young Link? Lots of combo potential but struggled to get final blows? Hmmmmmmzzzz.

Sure, Fox's shine doesn't have the same properties as Melee, so stop ****ing playing him like you're in Melee. People playing the demo are fighting the classic controller as much as each other, so it's no wonder they aren't getting Fox up to full speed. Saying "Fox sucks now" is absolutely ********.

Sure, they got rid of wavedashing. Get over it. There's still some method of wavelanding, and we already figured out a new technique in the horribly named "Ink dropping".

Sure, most aerial attacks seem to auto l-cancel. Maybe that's because Nintendo turned on auto cancelling for the demo to make it faster and more approachable for the masses? There are moves in trailer videos that are definitely NOT l-cancelled, so this is a viable explanation.

Ugh. Can we please get over ourselves and stop trying to be the first person to predict so-and-so's top tier? It's pure hubris. With apologies to the people who went to E For All (like me), you guys are all terrible at Brawl and you have no idea what makes a good or bad character. You aren't even playing with rules that even approach a competitive setup. So keep your opinions to yourself and focus more on how the game plays, how the physics work, and, for the love of god...

whether the game is fun (it is)

"So stop ****ing playing him like you're in Melee" That was the sentence that won this post lol. And I agree whole heartedly. A demo is a demo not the final product. and we know that this demo was rushed and like al demoes will lack many many many things and have many many differences when compared to the real deal.

 

[Superstarmario]

I find it difficult to NOT compare Brawl to Melee seeing as the game is a sequel. Sure it's a new game, but it's not as if we're comparing Guilty Gear to Power Stone here.

Secondly, NOW we can't draw conclusions from a hands on demo? Just like we couldn't from gameplay vids? Or trailers? Or Dojo updates? I beleive the STFU needs to be redirected toward yourself. The game is going to come even later now of course we're going to ****ing draw conclusions. It's not like we can decide a final judgement on the game, because it isn't out yet. You don't like the speculation? Then do yourself a favor and lock all the new threads. You're a mod right? Or better yet, please don't make dumb posts like these again. Just for the love of god stop *****ing over other people's opinions/predictions/speculations.

 

[Mama]

I find it difficult to NOT compare Brawl to Melee seeing as the game is a sequel. Sure it's a new game, but it's not as if we're comparing Guilty Gear to Power Stone here.

Secondly, NOW we can't draw conclusions from a hands on demo? Just like we couldn't from gameplay vids? Or trailers? Or Dojo updates? I beleive the STFU needs to be redirected toward yourself. The game is going to come even later now of course we're going to ****ing draw conclusions. It's not like we can decide a final judgement on the game, because it isn't out yet. You don't like the speculation? Then do yourself a favor and lock all the new threads. You're a mod right? Or better yet, please don't make dumb posts like these again. Just for the love of god stop *****ing over other people's opinions/predictions/speculations.

Idiot he said take it with a grain of salt. You can't take opinion as fact. Someone may say that Fox is super nerfed now while others say he's not all that different. Which do you believe? While it should be neither (you should if anything take it with a grain of salt) people are going to go with their bias. Speculation is just that, speculation.

 

[Superstarmario]

Idiot he said take it with a grain of salt. You can't take opinion as fact. Someone may say that Fox is super nerfed now while others say he's not all that different. Which do you believe? While it should be neither (you should if anything take it with a grain of salt) people are going to go with their bias. Speculation is just that, speculation.

WTF....

Of course. I'm pretty sure I said that. IActually I pretty much did.

You might be

It's not like we can decide a final judgement on the game, because it isn't out yet.

an

Idiot

 

[Mama]

WTF....

Of course. I'm pretty sure I said that. IActually I pretty much did.

You might be


an

You posted something that completely contradicted itself. Maybe you should check your wording. The way you posted it went against what you were saying lol. "Now we can't draw conclusions yadayadayada" like you were upset that he was saying you should come to a definite conclusion since its a demo as people had said the same thing about vids and pics.

 

[BigRick]

I don't agree with you. Taking out L cancelling and wavedashing makes this game suck for me, Im gonna play it but im not gonna play it competitivly, why even bother if its practically a movie now

I bet I'm going to see you at a Brawl tournament after a while... you won't be able to resist!

 

[Superstarmario]

You posted something that completely contradicted itself. Maybe you should check your wording. The way you posted it went against what you were saying lol. "Now we can't draw conclusions yadayadayada" like you were upset that he was saying you should come to a definite conclusion since its a demo as people had said the same thing about vids and pics.

"The game is going to come even later now of course we're going to ****ing draw conclusions"

"It's not like we can decide a final judgement on the game, because it isn't out yet."


Do these really contradict that much? I think I just used reasioning. Maybe the word conclusion got you for a loop. Whatever, I think you understand my point.

Though I never said anything about DEFNINTE conclusions. In which case, please stop taking my post out of context. The second quote proves that. Read.

 

[Vortok]

O lol. I know that guy (he's pretty cool), though he definately appeared to be pulling Nintendo characters off the top of his head - got caught off guard by the question I guess. I'm totally giving him a hard time next I see him. :D

 

[RT]

It is nice to see that people are whining and attacking each other over a DEMO. There really should be a disclaimer saying that nothing is final. A good example is Resident Evil 4. Is the final game anything like the demos they had?

A demo is put out, and look what happens. Everyone should be grateful that a demo was put out, and they should enjoy it. True, it's fun to dissect every little detail, but come on, play the game and have FUN and worry about the competitive side when the game comes out.

Honestly, it would have been better if there wasn't a playable demo, so people wouldn't have anything to whine about in the first place. People really need to calm down and go read or book or something.

 

[DarthBrittinias]

This is a great thread Neal. I just made a similar post in another post pretty much saying exactly what you said with yours. It's reassuring to me to know that some competitive smashers realized early on that nothing about this demo is concrete and it is silly to draw any definite conclusions.

Although, it sure is fun to watch all of the gameplay vids. I've especially enjoyed seeing the Sub-Space Emissary ones. It's also cool to see the general moves of characters and how they might play.

 

[Titan05]

Nealdt, your my hero. How can I be more like you?

 

[Dogenzaka]

I for the most part agree. Though, chances are they didn't auto L-cancel just for the demo. That's silly. It's probably an in-game mechanic. If there are trailers that don't have this in them, it's probably because they are old, I don't know. I haven't noticed any auto L-canceling. I don't really study the videos I watch, I just enjoy them.

However

I think this forum requires me to respond and say "ZOMG THIS IS A POINTLESS POST STOP RANTING YOU ****ING N00B NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR YOUR MEANINGLESS WHINING FAAAAAAAAIL YOU SCRUBBY JOHN".

Pity.

that is the smartest post i have ever heard....

Don't feed egos.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

I don't agree with you. Taking out L cancelling and wavedashing makes this game suck for me, Im gonna play it but im not gonna play it competitivly, why even bother if its practically a movie now

You sir, made my day.

 

[Razed]

Hoooooolllly sh*t, that was f****** brilliant. You simply win. At everything.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Nealdt as much as a respect you as a great smasher, you have to understand that this is a speculation based forum (for now) what do you expect people to do? And I'm sorry, but it's impossible to not compare Melee to Brawl. It's the sequel, with the same items, characters, a similar engine, of course we can compare them and more importantly we have to speculate.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Oh, please. What do you expect us to do, just pretend like we didn't see any of the demo's?

This is almost as pathetic as the people telling us to stop comparing this game to melee. If we don't compare it to anything than Mario is a new character, jumping is a new technique and double jumping is absolutely epic. What do you want us to compare it to, Halo?