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Important State of the BR

Shaya

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We had not been pushing things in between lists, the original bulk of our invited were purely for the tier list (v1), so we now are looking for the more organic process of building it up.

Hope you all can bare with us - feel free to make any discussion threads of interest.
In terms of near / future projects: proto match up chart (probably not something for a release, but a slowish WIP) and considering ruleset styled things.
 

Sinister Slush

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Done recovering from weekend kinda.
Ayy guys, glad to be back here. Can't wait to eventually do stuff or hopefully a thread I wanna post in back here already (like 2 or 3) that hasn't had a post in weeks gets a post from someone else cause don't wanna be that guy and bump em even though I have something to say.
 

Illusion.

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Does there happen to be a Discord group for the 4BR or no
 

Diosdi

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Ignore this. Accidental double post
 
Last edited:

Luco

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Discord is slowly killing Smashboards - transferring most of our discussions there would probably make this forum even quieter if that was possible. That said it's already so quiet and so many top players (ie a large portion of this BR) spend their time there or communicate with their fans there so it might be worth it, Iono. :O
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Done recovering from weekend kinda.
Ayy guys, glad to be back here. Can't wait to eventually do stuff or hopefully a thread I wanna post in back here already (like 2 or 3) that hasn't had a post in weeks gets a post from someone else cause don't wanna be that guy and bump em even though I have something to say.
Be that guy.
 

CT Chia

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Can anyone catch up the new members on the 4BR type stuff?

I've been reading around but am still kinda lost, and the state of the 4BR thread hasn't been updated since last year and still has some ?s in it.

What's our overall goal? Who are we? What are we trying to accomplish?
 

Shaya

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The reality of the times is as such: individuals which are commonly seen as figure-heads or are sought after in the community are more focused on e-sports presentation (promoting themselves).
There isn't anything wrong with that, this is about livelihoods and whatnot.

In the past, a single representative body being a voice or union of-sorts was a lot more efficient and the forced process of discussion, consensus building and decision making - was in most ambitious player's interests to be apart of that process. Now the dynamic contracts a lot more apathy on average, and in any case of disagreement we essentially get "walk outs" followed by (usually) *****ing on reddit or twitter - demoralizing, destabilizing and undoing the legitimacy of what organisations or groups are trying to achieve.
The individuals who know they can have this impact and are willing to flaunt it are few, but it results in ambivalence from the rest who would otherwise be necessary to counteract it.

This isn't unique to the 4BR (in fact we've kept ourselves low key enough for it to not be something we can be overly hurt by), but instances have been seen for just about everything else attempted in Smash4 and all the fiascos of the Unity Ruleset and the BBR late in Brawl's life time are still in the forefront of our minds.

Furthermore, Smashboards and forums in general are seeing less usage and convincing people otherwise is near pointless - which goes back to self promotion and how there isn't really a platform to do so through us.
This isn't entirely correct though as we do have a large twitter following and our news articles do draw attention - we can use these things, but to decide what is appropriate to beyond the obvious is quite difficult.

So what are we able to do?
We are able to bring together objected 'data' from as many relevant individuals as possible and present it as a whole - in other words metagame relevant shindigs such as tier lists which are otherwise highly subjective at a micro-level.
However, the amount of having to personally coerce and remind people to participate is quite steep - too much is being shouldered by individuals (this is really daunting, at least for me) rather than the group itself. And this has to change.

For anyone who wishes to use us as a platform to get information and ideas out there (twitter/news/etc), we're quite open to this and I believe this has been roughly stated one way or another. Essentially anything that is aimed at informing or helping, we'd love to be the base of such things - a place where one can present these ideas to other intelligent and/or like-minded people for discussion before moving forward with it.

Literally the original idea of the Backroom - just being a backroom. How we see the BRs today was an unintended consequence of bringing together the best, brightest and enthusiastic into an environment they could discuss among themselves. "Oh we happen to have all the TOs in here, let's agree to a rule set". At this stage we're trying to do things in the opposite direction and it hasn't been working out. So just like how the original BR had no grand intentions, it eventually built itself up through the volition of its members into what people envisage of back rooms today [wait, wasn't that something we asked people? ;)] and I currently don't see many other means of advancing.

With all the aforementioned issues in mind, we've been going with a 'from scratch' notion. We want people in here who would like to be in here and this would overlap with those who are still active on Smashboards (we're hesitant on making a discord for a reason, although it's approaching 'necessity' at this point) in some shape or form. We've been struggling to find a fair middle ground between 'tier list' type people, and the super lovable-tryhard-nerds without as much tournament notoriety that have a higher chance of pushing us forward.
.
Many of the new people we've just let in have varying degrees of interests which may push towards official ventures - although we initially wanted to keep a 10ft pole between us and rulesets, building up towards this is one of the few ways to keep a vested interest. This falls into what an alternative 'voice' could possibly do amidst the drama/ego fueled landscape we're currently being strung along primarily through outspoken and popular individuals. Personally, I would think an appropriate area for us to focus on is 'anti-meta', bringing awareness of Miis, alternative formats beyond singles, stages, stocks, etc - not 'recommending' or stating one is better than the other, but promoting global ruleset diversity (hence the 'personal' part, because I know a lot of people have hard-ons for global rulesets despite how successful our game has been without such things for over a decade).

I, and I'm sure many others, have 'big ideas' that could come about really really quickly given the right circumstances, but the foundations still need to be solid and we have to build it up beforehand .... somehow.
 
Last edited:

Diosdi

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The reality of the times is as such: individuals which are commonly seen as figure-heads or are sought after in the community are more focused on e-sports presentation (promoting themselves).
There isn't anything wrong with that, this is about livelihoods and whatnot.

In the past, a single representative body being a voice or union of-sorts was a lot more efficient and the forced process of discussion, consensus building and decision making - was in most ambitious player's interests to be apart of that process. Now the dynamic contracts a lot more apathy on average, and in any case of disagreement we essentially get "walk outs" followed by (usually) *****ing on reddit or twitter - demoralizing, destabilizing and undoing the legitimacy of what organisations or groups are trying to achieve.
The individuals who know they can have this impact and are willing to flaunt it are few, but it results in ambivalence from the rest who would otherwise be necessary to counteract it.

This isn't unique to the 4BR (in fact we've kept ourselves low key enough for it to not be something we can be overly hurt by), but instances have been seen for just about everything else attempted in Smash4 and all the fiascos of the Unity Ruleset and the BBR late in Brawl's life time are still in the forefront of our minds.

Furthermore, Smashboards and forums in general are seeing less usage and convincing people otherwise is near pointless - which goes back to self promotion and how there isn't really a platform to do so through us.
This isn't entirely correct though as we do have a large twitter following and our news articles do draw attention - we can use these things, but to decide what is appropriate to beyond the obvious is quite difficult.

So what are we able to do?
We are able to bring together objected 'data' from as many relevant individuals as possible and present it as a whole - in other words metagame relevant shindigs such as tier lists which are otherwise highly subjective at a micro-level.
However, the amount of having to personally coerce and remind people to participate is quite steep - too much is being shouldered by individuals (this is really daunting, at least for me) rather than the group itself. And this has to change.

For anyone who wishes to use us as a platform to get information and ideas out there (twitter/news/etc), we're quite open to this and I believe this has been roughly stated one way or another. Essentially anything that is aimed at informing or helping, we'd love to be the base of such things - a place where one can present these ideas to other intelligent and/or like-minded people for discussion before moving forward with it.

Literally the original idea of the Backroom - just being a backroom. How we see the BRs today was an unintended consequence of bringing together the best, brightest and enthusiastic into an environment they could discuss among themselves. "Oh we happen to have all the TOs in here, let's agree to a rule set". At this stage we're trying to do things in the opposite direction and it hasn't been working out. So just like how the original BR had no grand intentions, it eventually built itself up through the volition of its members into what people envisage of back rooms today [wait, wasn't that something we asked people? ;)] and I currently don't see many other means of advancing.

With all the aforementioned issues in mind, we've been going with a 'from scratch' notion. We want people in here who would like to be in here and this would overlap with those who are still active on Smashboards (we're hesitant on making a discord for a reason, although it's approaching 'necessity' at this point) in some shape or form. We've been struggling to find a fair middle ground between 'tier list' type people, and the super lovable-tryhard-nerds without as much tournament notoriety that have a higher chance of pushing us forward.
.
Many of the new people we've just let in have varying degrees of interests which may push towards official ventures - although we initially wanted to keep a 10ft pole between us and rulesets, building up towards this is one of the few ways to keep a vested interest. This falls into what an alternative 'voice' could possibly do amidst the drama/ego fueled landscape we're currently being strung along primarily through outspoken and popular individuals. Personally, I would think an appropriate area for us to focus on is 'anti-meta', bringing awareness of Miis, alternative formats beyond singles, stages, stocks, etc - not 'recommending' or stating one is better than the other, but promoting global ruleset diversity (hence the 'personal' part, because I know a lot of people have hard-ons for global rulesets despite how successful our game has been without such things for over a decade).

I, and I'm sure many others, have 'big ideas' that could come about really really quickly given the right circumstances, but the foundations still need to be solid and we have to build it up beforehand .... somehow.
Really good read ;)

I think that there should be awareness of certain stuff like unconventional rulsets (i.e., stuff that isnt singles 2 stocks...) But i think that we also should put ourselves not only as the voice that promotes it but also as an institution that actually supports this kind of non traditional rulesets.


What do I mean by this? That we should, far bayond just saying "try this, it is fun", actually develop the information needed to build this awareness. Little tournaments host 3v3 tournaments, an even less have 4v4. All of those onlyuse Big BF, when you have a plethora of stages, that due to the limits imposed by the amount of players, actually afit what one would call a "legal" stage. Example: Pyrosphere. It has its two platforms on each side, one main big platform, and no Ridley. I have been promoting this in my local scene here in venezuela, and there is a certain participation out there.

Im not trying to rush things out, but there should be a certain support from us to those unorthodox playstyles. I plan on doing thread about this in the near future, but i still dont know how are we supposed to bring topics up; should i just make a thread in the forum? Erico said i should just go for it but im hesitant :v
 

Sinister Slush

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Feel like I'm not fully understanding every bit of the post, we want changes but not something that'd be a turn off to the community cause they don't like it or the people that just watch smash 4 and want it through as fast as possible so melee can get its turn? (2 stock)

I'll just do short answers for now for what I think I understood.
The reality of the times is as such: individuals which are commonly seen as figure-heads or are sought after in the community are more focused on e-sports presentation (promoting themselves).
There isn't anything wrong with that, this is about livelihoods and whatnot.
We should find a way for them to promote SB/4br more often at least since pretty much more than half of the top players or some content creators (some BSD people) are back here giving their tier list opinions or once in a blue moon posts when the time comes for discussion on something serious. Even if most of their rantings are put on the lovely 140 character limit that is twitter or they just make a video on it for, as you said, promoting themselves which is fine.
Still would be nice for them to post here beforehand.

This isn't unique to the 4BR (in fact we've kept ourselves low key enough for it to not be something we can be overly hurt by), but instances have been seen for just about everything else attempted in Smash4 and all the fiascos of the Unity Ruleset and the BBR late in Brawl's life time are still in the forefront of our minds.

Furthermore, Smashboards and forums in general are seeing less usage and convincing people otherwise is near pointless - which goes back to self promotion and how there isn't really a platform to do so through us.
This isn't entirely correct though as we do have a large twitter following and our news articles do draw attention - we can use these things, but to decide what is appropriate to beyond the obvious is quite difficult.
So this is kinda going on about how we might have to cave in and use twitter/other social media more often? How large is the twitter following anyways, the one with 300? That's ok I guess, it maybe just needs some devoted twitter hound to be making constant posts every few hours or every day on an article or something relating to SB in some way.

As you mention below, smashboards at least holds some data social media stuff like reddit discord or twitter can't keep archived, but outside of that the only other way we get some traffic is when interesting articles on tournaments are posted that reddit doesn't post or when a tier list is done.

Think maybe a small chunk of the 1k budget should be dumped into content creators to advertise SB more while they make threads here and post more info than the released video? Might give an incentive for people to check the site more possibly but not sure how to make SB used more and have content creators or top players come here more often and shy away from the social media bug.
It's hard to say cause it's already mentioned here or there by BSD along with MSC but not like they were paid to do that... I think?

So what are we able to do?
We are able to bring together objected 'data' from as many relevant individuals as possible and present it as a whole - in other words metagame relevant shindigs such as tier lists which are otherwise highly subjective at a micro-level.
However, the amount of having to personally coerce and remind people to participate is quite steep - too much is being shouldered by individuals (this is really daunting, at least for me) rather than the group itself. And this has to change.
I remember digging through threads here and seeing how not many posts were happening during voting or the decent amount of days before someone did post one, was it really that difficult to get top players to even post their thoughts on anything but twitter. Making them remember this site exists over social media, is this how badly forums are slowly decaying.

With all the aforementioned issues in mind, we've been going with a 'from scratch' notion. We want people in here who would like to be in here and this would overlap with those who are still active on Smashboards (we're hesitant on making a discord for a reason, although it's approaching 'necessity' at this point) in some shape or form. We've been struggling to find a fair middle ground between 'tier list' type people, and the super lovable-tryhard-nerds without as much tournament notoriety that have a higher chance of pushing us forward.
To be honest, compared to skype. Discord might be kind of helpful for the 4br and Smashboards, it's more clean and easier to use along with multiple channels and such to make it tidy and less convoluted. But that's a maybe from my part but it wouldn't hurt to try in the future if things don't work out down the road.

I understand the reasoning of no discord group cause it'd just kill activity both in here and smashboards more maybe, but since a lot of the pros prolly spend their time on their phones for twitter anyways and occasionally check their Discord fan groups they might be more vocal and active on discord then we could possibly get them to chime in on discussion in our server or even light a fire under them that this site exists to help us with what all needs to be done to better the community or finish our next big project.

Many of the new people we've just let in have varying degrees of interests which may push towards official ventures - although we initially wanted to keep a 10ft pole between us and rulesets, building up towards this is one of the few ways to keep a vested interest. This falls into what an alternative 'voice' could possibly do amidst the drama/ego fueled landscape we're currently being strung along primarily through outspoken and popular individuals. Personally, I would think an appropriate area for us to focus on is 'anti-meta', bringing awareness of Miis, alternative formats beyond singles, stages, stocks, etc - not 'recommending' or stating one is better than the other, but promoting global ruleset diversity (hence the 'personal' part, because I know a lot of people have hard-ons for global rulesets despite how successful our game has been without such things for over a decade).

I, and I'm sure many others, have 'big ideas' that could come about really really quickly given the right circumstances, but the foundations still need to be solid and we have to build it up beforehand .... somehow.
So obvious stuff to point out like a bigger stagelist with some minor player vs environment like Delfino PS2 or Umbra, 3 stock, allow miis, mid/low tier events or 3v3 for different stuff to maybe give a new taste for everyone?
Of the extreme ideas I mentioned 3 stock, the tier events or allowing miis are the most tame that we could probably go into. Miis to test the waters with how long it actually does take for people to be setting them up, if it actually does take up time compared to people never remembering to take out the battery from their wiimotes or unsyncing a pro controller, wasting as much time as a Mii setup.
Still wish we could switch back to 3 stock, never agreed with 2 stock making matches "go faster" and more "viewer friendly". Players before viewers, upsets still happen in 3 stock but is more consistent with 2. Regardless if 2 or 3 stock, if it's gonna be a certain MU where camping/timeout would happen, you're still gonna be sleeping in your chair waiting for the rosalina & pac-man to run the time till next set wakes you up regardless of stock count.

Not sure what ventures I'm possibly pushing though if it was a reason I was tossed back here, I'm of the side that doesn't really enjoy this social media age and wish smashboards was used more for an outlet to post over FB twitter and reddit :^)
Discord is fine, it's basically a better skype and that didn't kill SB back then, the first three mostly did. If I knew of a surefire way to get more activity here, I'd help if I was able too in a heartbeat... well all except posting tweets all day and night. If SM related I probably can't do that, my PR isn't all that good.

Kinda feels like my post has a whole lot of nothing, but felt like replying anyways.
 
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A10theHero

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The reality of the times is as such: individuals which are commonly seen as figure-heads or are sought after in the community are more focused on e-sports presentation (promoting themselves).
There isn't anything wrong with that, this is about livelihoods and whatnot.

In the past, a single representative body being a voice or union of-sorts was a lot more efficient and the forced process of discussion, consensus building and decision making - was in most ambitious player's interests to be apart of that process. Now the dynamic contracts a lot more apathy on average, and in any case of disagreement we essentially get "walk outs" followed by (usually) *****ing on reddit or twitter - demoralizing, destabilizing and undoing the legitimacy of what organisations or groups are trying to achieve.
The individuals who know they can have this impact and are willing to flaunt it are few, but it results in ambivalence from the rest who would otherwise be necessary to counteract it.

This isn't unique to the 4BR (in fact we've kept ourselves low key enough for it to not be something we can be overly hurt by), but instances have been seen for just about everything else attempted in Smash4 and all the fiascos of the Unity Ruleset and the BBR late in Brawl's life time are still in the forefront of our minds.

Furthermore, Smashboards and forums in general are seeing less usage and convincing people otherwise is near pointless - which goes back to self promotion and how there isn't really a platform to do so through us.
This isn't entirely correct though as we do have a large twitter following and our news articles do draw attention - we can use these things, but to decide what is appropriate to beyond the obvious is quite difficult.

So what are we able to do?
We are able to bring together objected 'data' from as many relevant individuals as possible and present it as a whole - in other words metagame relevant shindigs such as tier lists which are otherwise highly subjective at a micro-level.
However, the amount of having to personally coerce and remind people to participate is quite steep - too much is being shouldered by individuals (this is really daunting, at least for me) rather than the group itself. And this has to change.

For anyone who wishes to use us as a platform to get information and ideas out there (twitter/news/etc), we're quite open to this and I believe this has been roughly stated one way or another. Essentially anything that is aimed at informing or helping, we'd love to be the base of such things - a place where one can present these ideas to other intelligent and/or like-minded people for discussion before moving forward with it.

Literally the original idea of the Backroom - just being a backroom. How we see the BRs today was an unintended consequence of bringing together the best, brightest and enthusiastic into an environment they could discuss among themselves. "Oh we happen to have all the TOs in here, let's agree to a rule set". At this stage we're trying to do things in the opposite direction and it hasn't been working out. So just like how the original BR had no grand intentions, it eventually built itself up through the volition of its members into what people envisage of back rooms today [wait, wasn't that something we asked people? ;)] and I currently don't see many other means of advancing.

With all the aforementioned issues in mind, we've been going with a 'from scratch' notion. We want people in here who would like to be in here and this would overlap with those who are still active on Smashboards (we're hesitant on making a discord for a reason, although it's approaching 'necessity' at this point) in some shape or form. We've been struggling to find a fair middle ground between 'tier list' type people, and the super lovable-tryhard-nerds without as much tournament notoriety that have a higher chance of pushing us forward.

Many of the new people we've just let in have varying degrees of interests which may push towards official ventures - although we initially wanted to keep a 10ft pole between us and rulesets, building up towards this is one of the few ways to keep a vested interest. This falls into what an alternative 'voice' could possibly do amidst the drama/ego fueled landscape we're currently being strung along primarily through outspoken and popular individuals. Personally, I would think an appropriate area for us to focus on is 'anti-meta', bringing awareness of Miis, alternative formats beyond singles, stages, stocks, etc - not 'recommending' or stating one is better than the other, but promoting global ruleset diversity (hence the 'personal' part, because I know a lot of people have hard-ons for global rulesets despite how successful our game has been without such things for over a decade).

I, and I'm sure many others, have 'big ideas' that could come about really really quickly given the right circumstances, but the foundations still need to be solid and we have to build it up beforehand .... somehow.
Great post like always, Shaya. c:
About that fear of potential walk-outs though. If someone walked out just because they disagreed, wouldn't they be putting themselves in a vulnerable position? They'd just be leaving because things weren't going exactly how they wanted them to and that's pretty immature reasoning. And if they're rude about it, they're just hurting their case even more since their posts would permanently be here as a record. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Talking about alternative rulesets would be nice. I'm all for that. I'd especially be a fan of discussion of the pros and cons of various options. Of course that might imply that certain choices are objectively superior to others simply because some really are better than others. If we want to stay neutral, that could be a problem.
Anyways, like you mentioned, there definitely are people who want us to create a single, uniform ruleset for this, but even if we were to try and create one, I'm not sure if us saying anything would lead to change. To be honest, the BR feels pretty isolated from the rest of the community. It doesn't seem like we as a group are that meaningful to the community. Sure, the tier lists get a lot of views, but outside of that, what else is there? Trying to be agents of change or something like that likely wouldn't work for that reason. To fix that, we'd basically have to promote the 4BR "brand". Talking about controversial subjects would become a more realistic option if we could successfully do this. (The fear of people leaving would also be lessened because right now, we definitely need certain people more than they need us, but if we could gain more credibility in the community, it'd somewhat balance the disparity between the group as a whole and those select members.) And the first step in building credibility would probably be by interacting with the community more. This definitely would require using social media too, but it's still entirely possible to use Smashboards as one of the main platforms. One thing we could do is share relevant and helpful information like RTing new tech and discoveries. Good 'ol Smashboards might not be fit for that, but there's much more we can do. Like, an AMA for example. We could post an article on SB saying that people should post their questions in the comments of the article and then within a week, answers from the 4BR will be posted in a followup article. We could share links to the articles on Twitter and Reddit, but it all would ultimately lead back to Smashboards anyways.

Not sure what ventures I'm possibly pushing though if it was a reason I was tossed back here, I'm of the side that doesn't really enjoy this social media age and wish smashboards was used more for an outlet to post over FB twitter and reddit :^)
Discord is fine, it's basically a better skype and that didn't kill SB back then, the first three mostly did. If I knew of a surefire way to get more activity here, I'd help if I was able too in a heartbeat... well all except posting tweets all day and night. If SM related I probably can't do that, my PR isn't all that good.

Kinda feels like my post has a whole lot of nothing, but felt like replying anyways.
It would probably help if Smashboards had a mobile app. That'd put it in a better position to compete though I don't think it'd solve the problem. The people who go to Smashboards are people who are interested in Smash. Posting on social media platforms can reach a more diverse audience like sponsors. There are just some things that the 4BR can't control.
Then there are also some things we might be able to kinda influence but not really control. Like, on Discord, I often see Smashboards mentioned when someone says something...nonsmart in the CCI thread (accompanied with the text "This is why I don't go to Smashboards"). Of course, this logic is incredibly flawed because that's just one person's opinion and that doesn't reflect on all the discussion on the forum as a whole. (It also ignores the many insightful, good posts people make in that thread and the fact that the people on Discord are basically like this too.) Back to the main point, we can't really stop people from having not-good opinions and them getting reprimanded, but we can just keep trying to promote positive, insightful discussion and hope that people recognize that instead.


In general, I get similar vibes for all this from the Writing Staff. We have to compete with the likes of ESPN when we write about Smash eSports news and their brand is just so much stronger. As one member put it, Smashboards posting an article is like your mom putting up your drawing on the fridge while some big-shot like ESPN is basically putting your drawing up in an art museum. One is clearly going to draw more attention unless you somehow make that fridge compelling as heck. And that's...kinda hard to do. The BR is in a similar position but one that is less hopeless. It doesn't seem like we have a competitor that can fill our niche. Nobody really is doing what we can be doing. We just have to get out there and firmly establish who we are and what we're here for. It all leads back to that strong foundation and that need for a brand.

Now to talk about what I was originally going to post here for:
A thing i would recommend an average survivability would be test out every character's most optimal kill move (not only knockback or damage, but also optimal in the sens of frame data and times used, etc. ust the most optimal) of each char agains an specific char and then average all the percents said char was killed. This is of course a sshort cut but still is a way to find out a range
I see what you're saying. The problem is that characters don't always use their most optimal options. There's often more than one way to seal a stock. And some characters' most optimal options aren't necessarily easy to land. So they likely will draw from multiple options, each of which have different KO ranges and such. Positioning (mainly for moves that kill horizontally) and DI can also play a huge part in affect when opponents are typically killed. Labbing this out would be easier to do in Training Mode, but then that would ignore rage and freshness. Simply put, there are so many factors to account for when simulating this that it'd be much better to just observe what happens in actual matches.

You probably will end up with some bias from your fairly niche group. Recording data from just top 8 limits the applicability away from non-top 8 circumstances.
I definitely agree with you there. The problem is just that I have no idea how far I want to go with this. Of course, there's gonna be some natural limitations since I'll only be able to access matches that were recorded and uploaded to YouTube and higher-level matches are the ones that are usually streamed anyways. Then there's the problem with there being multiple YouTube channels that regularly upload Smash tournament sets. Keeping track of all that data is going to be a huge pain to do by myself. I might slowly work on it in the background when I don't have a Wii U to lab stuff like Hitstun Cancelling and the Hurtbox/ECD Extension of Quick Attack.

Speaking of Hitstun Cancelling I need to do a better job of getting the word out on stuff I've discovered. I've done a lot of labwork on that and found out a lot of neat stuff. I even made a calculator that can tell you the Frames until Air Dodge/Special/Jump. (The only one that's left is Frames Until Attack and I only stopped working on that because I don't have a Wii U in my apartment.) I feel like that information is worth knowing. At least I'll have a chance to try again once I finish getting data on Hitstun Cancelling with Attack.
 

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Great post like always, Shaya. c:
About that fear of potential walk-outs though. If someone walked out just because they disagreed, wouldn't they be putting themselves in a vulnerable position? They'd just be leaving because things weren't going exactly how they wanted them to and that's pretty immature reasoning. And if they're rude about it, they're just hurting their case even more since their posts would permanently be here as a record. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not really what he meant. I'll try my best I guess:

In today's day and age it's hard to be in the position that old Backrooms were since that niche might not be necessary. People's opinions are just so much more visible than they used to be. This on top of the need to promote oneself puts the Backroom (and other similar organizations) in a tough spot. (But like Shaya said, I won't say anything bad about wanting to do that. That's their life and livelihood, and it's not my business to judge that.)

Looking at the reactions to tier lists (the one we just released, versus ones for previous games) makes this super evident. Did top players disagree with tier lists released back then? Probably. But the Smash World Forum Backroom released it. It had notoriety that no single person really had the power to challenge. Not like Smashers had social media presence at all. If all you did was watch streams, play online, etc., you probably wouldn't even know if *insert well-known player here* didn't like the tier list. No, it was the tier list.
But now? Hoo boy, think of all the players with tens of thousands of followers. What happens when they say "That Smashboards tierlist is crap." That has a ton of power.
It makes just about anything we do have that much more risk, and be that much more stressful. Just a different environment, not one conducive to those kind of projects. If we released, say, a MU chart for a single character, then it would probably get the same reaction from a high-profile player who uses that character.
Or lord forbid, imagine if we tried a ruleset. #_#

This very thing happened with the tier list we just released. (I won't name names as I think that's unnecessary and disrespectful.) That is what Shaya's talking about.
This is not a fear from nowhere. This fear is very real and potentially very undermining to basically anything we could do.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Making MU charts back in the day still were a hassle since players clashed with everyone on differing opinions to the point where players outright dropped the project because they couldn't stand the differing opinions at times or some of the people who were contributing.

This sort of thing applies to now as well with how top players can exert their opinions but do not need to justify it and usually social media is what they use to just drop their idea then leave.

Leffen and Toph recently did this to a response on the Scruffy video on nerfing Fox and how it was all terrible and they hated his balance philosophy and got some support on it, and some hate granted, kind of just on them posting about it.

The 4BR isn't really in any light outside of from what I remember of Zero making a Tweet why he disagreed with the overall list, then making a video series on it. At least there he explained himself on why he felt character were where they were. This is at least a little bit better and not as volatile as it was in the Brawl days where Top players were able to muscle Metaknight to still be legal despite the huge huge huge support to want him banned.

This still exists with rulesets with Miis mostly, somewhat stocks as well but I think that is not as black and white of an issue.

Arguing with people won't work, you need push and pull if you want to change rulesets.

With tier lists, I wouldn't worry about it. Even Zero got flak for his on a number of levels, but I do appreciate he was at least honest and tried to justify himself.

As long as he does that I don't think it is an issue, because even among top players right now. Tier lists can differ a lot.

Rulesets are where you need push and pull if you want change to happen.
 
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CT Chia

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The reality of the times is as such: individuals which are commonly seen as figure-heads or are sought after in the community are more focused on e-sports presentation (promoting themselves).
There isn't anything wrong with that, this is about livelihoods and whatnot.

In the past, a single representative body being a voice or union of-sorts was a lot more efficient and the forced process of discussion, consensus building and decision making - was in most ambitious player's interests to be apart of that process. Now the dynamic contracts a lot more apathy on average, and in any case of disagreement we essentially get "walk outs" followed by (usually) *****ing on reddit or twitter - demoralizing, destabilizing and undoing the legitimacy of what organisations or groups are trying to achieve.
The individuals who know they can have this impact and are willing to flaunt it are few, but it results in ambivalence from the rest who would otherwise be necessary to counteract it.

This isn't unique to the 4BR (in fact we've kept ourselves low key enough for it to not be something we can be overly hurt by), but instances have been seen for just about everything else attempted in Smash4 and all the fiascos of the Unity Ruleset and the BBR late in Brawl's life time are still in the forefront of our minds.

Furthermore, Smashboards and forums in general are seeing less usage and convincing people otherwise is near pointless - which goes back to self promotion and how there isn't really a platform to do so through us.
This isn't entirely correct though as we do have a large twitter following and our news articles do draw attention - we can use these things, but to decide what is appropriate to beyond the obvious is quite difficult.

So what are we able to do?
We are able to bring together objected 'data' from as many relevant individuals as possible and present it as a whole - in other words metagame relevant shindigs such as tier lists which are otherwise highly subjective at a micro-level.
However, the amount of having to personally coerce and remind people to participate is quite steep - too much is being shouldered by individuals (this is really daunting, at least for me) rather than the group itself. And this has to change.

For anyone who wishes to use us as a platform to get information and ideas out there (twitter/news/etc), we're quite open to this and I believe this has been roughly stated one way or another. Essentially anything that is aimed at informing or helping, we'd love to be the base of such things - a place where one can present these ideas to other intelligent and/or like-minded people for discussion before moving forward with it.

Literally the original idea of the Backroom - just being a backroom. How we see the BRs today was an unintended consequence of bringing together the best, brightest and enthusiastic into an environment they could discuss among themselves. "Oh we happen to have all the TOs in here, let's agree to a rule set". At this stage we're trying to do things in the opposite direction and it hasn't been working out. So just like how the original BR had no grand intentions, it eventually built itself up through the volition of its members into what people envisage of back rooms today [wait, wasn't that something we asked people? ;)] and I currently don't see many other means of advancing.

With all the aforementioned issues in mind, we've been going with a 'from scratch' notion. We want people in here who would like to be in here and this would overlap with those who are still active on Smashboards (we're hesitant on making a discord for a reason, although it's approaching 'necessity' at this point) in some shape or form. We've been struggling to find a fair middle ground between 'tier list' type people, and the super lovable-tryhard-nerds without as much tournament notoriety that have a higher chance of pushing us forward.
.
Many of the new people we've just let in have varying degrees of interests which may push towards official ventures - although we initially wanted to keep a 10ft pole between us and rulesets, building up towards this is one of the few ways to keep a vested interest. This falls into what an alternative 'voice' could possibly do amidst the drama/ego fueled landscape we're currently being strung along primarily through outspoken and popular individuals. Personally, I would think an appropriate area for us to focus on is 'anti-meta', bringing awareness of Miis, alternative formats beyond singles, stages, stocks, etc - not 'recommending' or stating one is better than the other, but promoting global ruleset diversity (hence the 'personal' part, because I know a lot of people have hard-ons for global rulesets despite how successful our game has been without such things for over a decade).

I, and I'm sure many others, have 'big ideas' that could come about really really quickly given the right circumstances, but the foundations still need to be solid and we have to build it up beforehand .... somehow.

I appreciate this, and it does a good job at putting out there the current state of the room, but it leaves open many questions. The bolded parts are literally "this has to change" and what we're currently doing "hasn't been working out." As one of the leaders of the 4BR, I would love to hear proposed plans for getting to alternative goals that could set us on the right track, and then how we can enact those plans together as a hole.

The room has nothing actively going on, and few threads keeping up. There's kind of a postmortem discussion going on about the recent tier list which is good, then the social, and a thread on Miis - but with no goal or purpose whatsoever. Are we doing it to release a statement on them? Are we discussing it to provide knowledge and discussion between each other to hold a poll on it to examine our stance on it? I posted the biggest source of information the Mii community has and within a few posts later there's discussion going on that said knowledgebase clearly proves false. Not saying it's required reading or anything, but it just kind of gives me the feeling like, so what was the purpose of posting it then. Why are we even having this discussion or why is it a thread if we have no purpose or goal with it (even if it's just said hey, this has no purpose, but it's a fun discussion for intelligent minds sorta deal).

We have a $1,000 budget given to us, which as far as I can see, we still have no idea what to do with, and we're wrapping up Q3 currently already.

There's so much room for opportunity in this community and honestly so much that needs to be fixed, and we have the potential to right a lot of it, but I'm not seeing any of the action. From the outside looking in previously I didn't know anything that was going on, and just saw a couple of tier lists. Missed opportunities like rankings that PG picked up without even being a forum or any kind of source of info. Have we started to work on positive relations with various TOs out there? What have we done to tackle and correct certain issues out there, like those dealing with rulesets? Have we played any role in new tournament series adapting Smash or becoming more familiar with it like Evo or CEO? Why does it feel like the illuminati like Smash 4 group on Facebook has made, or at least attempted, more moves than the 4BR?

Perhaps it was just me getting too excited and hoping to get in here and hit the group running and trying to make change, but this response really doesn't seem to better that.
 

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Like I said before, if we could get some of the guys here to share their thoughts as columns on the front page, that'd be good as PR.

We could have weekly columns from a random 4BR member each week and we could blow it up on social media (both 4BR twitter and SB twitter). As the editor-in-chief here, I can work together with whoever is interested.

And another thing, semi-unrelated. We should really just help each other disseminate our content. If one of us makes content, we should share it on social media, etc. That'd help get exposure for all of us.
 

Yikarur

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I greatly support the idea of having columns with content on the front page. I now a lot of other websites that do it and it's a super interesting concept. I even know pages that pay people for those articles so they are more motivated to sent in high-quality content.
 

Gunla

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We have a $1,000 budget given to us, which as far as I can see, we still have no idea what to do with, and we're wrapping up Q3 currently already.
We do need to figure out this, though. I've personally felt unsure what to do with the budget this year, but we haven't really found too many uses for it. Commissioning someone for graphics? Pot bonus at TBH or G4?

The room has nothing actively going on, and few threads keeping up. There's kind of a postmortem discussion going on about the recent tier list which is good, then the social, and a thread on Miis - but with no goal or purpose whatsoever. Are we doing it to release a statement on them? Are we discussing it to provide knowledge and discussion between each other to hold a poll on it to examine our stance on it?
The original discussion of the Mii thread was to guage what people's opinions were on them. When it was first made, it was designed as a sort of introduction to potential ruleset discussion - frankly, at the moment I'm more in support of promoting diversity rather than try and force everyone underneath the same banner of rulesets (moreso directed at stagelists and stocks). 4BR articles or releases that aren't tier lists and are things like columns (and seeing how we have Diosdi, A10 and Popi on board, releasing things through SWF should be less hoops to jump through) also are a personal priority for me, and is another way we could use that budget.

In the end, I do agree, I want to get things going. I've had my back against the wall for the past week and very little time to really work on things for the 4BR as I've been working to help create the upcoming PR in my region and run a tournament this past weekend, but this week should be good for me, nor do I have to run anything this week.
 
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Popi

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But yeah, imho, marketing would be a really good thing to focus on for now. Establishing ourselves as a brand in this day and age of eSports is necessary, even if we don't want to.

Columns are a start. As someone who used to work for Splyce, an op-ed only publication, opinion (especially of those who are important) pieces are highly sought after.
 

Sinister Slush

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Would we go as far as sponsoring a player to be 4BR/SB | Player name, or just make merch for people to hopefully buy. If people do buy SB related merch maybe give them free premium for a 3/6 months.
 

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At the writing team, we all use the SB prefix, but no official sponsorship is done, i would endorse using also 4BR prefix as it is good to feel identified with something. I also like the idea of soe coluns, if any of you would like to, maybe PM A10, Popi, or myself.

As to the 1000 bucks, we should MAYBE not rrush in to use them(?). Either way, the year is ending soon, and maybe many doors may open if we procrastinate and wait for the 2017 budget. IF we wait, we would have maybe double the money, and we coud afford more for 2017. Just saying
 

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Our only real options are to either try and find things the 4BR can do within the constraints of this power disparity or try to reduce the gap between certain community heads and the 4BR. Or both. A little of both would probably be nice. Building a stronger following / strengthening the 4BR's influence would allow us to talk about more controversial subjects while taking less damage from conflicting figurehead opinions. (Though I'm skeptical of the 4BR ever reaching a level where its word is as powerful as it once was in earlier times. It's not out of the realm of possibility but times certainly have changed, so that's why to some extent, we need to adjust how the BR operates. Just strengthening the BR's power in the community likely wouldn't completely revert anything.) And to make the BR more influential, we really have to work on marketing like Popi said.
Interacting with the community more is really important. One possible option is to involve the community in the discussions we have here. Like, if we were discussing the pros and cons of Miis, we could make a post on Smashboards's front page saying that people who want to contribute their opinions on this subject could do so in the comments section. They might not be directly involved in the conversation in the subforum, but getting the chance to say their piece would make the end result at least slightly more appealing to them since they at least helped us to come to the conclusion. (It's harder to completely hate something you helped make.) Added benefits include: Their opinions could help improve the quality of discussion further here and also show us some good potential new members of the BR.



On the topic of interacting with the community, V1 of the Community Pika MU Chart was released. Read more here. c:
 

Popi

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We obviously can't reach the point (and shouldn't) where we make and choose ALL the rules (it's a bad thing still IMO).

Instead, we can go in a different route. Rather than trying to direct where the community goes or put out a tier list once every blue moon, we could try being community promoters. Honestly, Smash 4 lacks a body like MIOM atm that promotes all the aspects of its community. The 4BR could fill that.

If any of you are willing to start writing columns, please do PM me. A10, Diosdi and I are more than willing to help make this happen.
 

CT Chia

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But yeah, imho, marketing would be a really good thing to focus on for now. Establishing ourselves as a brand in this day and age of eSports is necessary, even if we don't want to.

Columns are a start. As someone who used to work for Splyce, an op-ed only publication, opinion (especially of those who are important) pieces are highly sought after.
What are we marketing? What's our product, our purpose? We need to properly define what we do before we put money into advertising it. We have a tier list out, that's about all I can think.
 

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Advertising doesn't really sound like something to put money into. We don't really need it. The backroom is already a well known thing.

I've been active in my school's SGA, and the main things we would spend our budget on were events for the student body (or for us, events for the sm4sh community), and paying the people in the SGA for their work.

Furthermore, the clubs that got money from the SGA would also spend money on events.

Really, I think events are our best options. We have a lot of options for events, especially online ones.
 
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A10theHero

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Hey, can we schedule a BR meeting or something? This is a really important topic as it involves the future of the BR, and a post every few days in the social thread isn't the right way to discuss it.
Every member of the BR attending the meeting, while ideal, isn't realistic. At the very least, we need the leaders of the BR and the people here who have already been discussing the topic. (We should still extend the invitation to all members though.)
As for a place for discussion, Smashboards probably isn't ideal. Discord might be better able to facilitate meeting-type discussion. (Smashboards could work as a place for record-keeping and summarizing what was discussed though). Other suggestions and counterarguments are welcome of course.
And for when the meeting could take place is up to the people here, really. They're the ones who have been mainly discussing it so the time that works best for them is what we should aim for. (We do have to take into consideration when the BR heads could talk too though).
 

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I aggree with A10. We should make a group at least for meetings.
 

Sinister Slush

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Let's make pins of the 4br that look like this.

I'd actually buy n wear it on my bag or something if it had different colors too lel

The 4BR twitter needs a different icon too that isn't the exact same as the smashboards twitter. Speaking of which, the SB twitter has like almost 50k followers and the 4br has barely 300, that's not good. Is the SB twitter just not bringing up anything 4br related? Or are the people in charge of the 4br twitter just not making as any tweets to be active and get a steady flow of followers like SB with a post or two everyday.

Also I agree we should do a discord group for 4br anyways, the activity back here is already kind of an all time low. So it's not like discord will be killing a truckload of activity here or anything.
These past 3 or so years I've just seen SB as a place to archive the best info like A10 mentioned, which isn't a bad thing nor a good thing. (brings up the whole, how 2 get activity on SB again instead of just a place to archive info where we're only useful for tier lists now) Especially since these days it's just mostly 2014 and so on members spamming in so many socials that they get to 20k postcount in such a short amount of time while fishing for 50k+ likes.

Since discord isn't really the best place to keep stuff since it can be drowned out by talking or one channel just having so many different posts/threads with info, it all eventually gets too much that people don't feel like scrolling through it all or even forget that channel exists. ( I mean it's similar with people forgetting OP exists for threads but yeah)
The bar on the side shows just how many threads people would still need to scroll down for and open in a new tab which is enough to spook most people away.

Can still use SB to post occasionally or start up a thread, but Discord can't hurt that much right? Worst that happens is that it maybe does so then the higher ups can just close the server then. Give it a shot to see if a bit of activity on any discussions in here into instant chat instead.
 

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I'd be up for a meeting of some sort. We need a way to contact the inactive here if we want to get as many members as possible though. A meeting with top players involved where we come out with something maybe just like promoting a twitter account would be *insanely* powerful, and that's just the start imo.
 

A10theHero

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Let's make pins of the 4br that look like this.

I'd actually buy n wear it on my bag or something if it had different colors too lel
Same, tbh.

The 4BR twitter needs a different icon too that isn't the exact same as the smashboards twitter. Speaking of which, the SB twitter has like almost 50k followers and the 4br has barely 300, that's not good. Is the SB twitter just not bringing up anything 4br related? Or are the people in charge of the 4br twitter just not making as any tweets to be active and get a steady flow of followers like SB with a post or two everyday.
https://twitter.com/Smash4BR
Since its creation in February, this account has had a total of 13 Tweets. Its last Tweet was about a month ago. It's very very inactive.

Also I agree we should do a discord group for 4br anyways, the activity back here is already kind of an all time low. So it's not like discord will be killing a truckload of activity here or anything.
These past 3 or so years I've just seen SB as a place to archive the best info like A10 mentioned, which isn't a bad thing nor a good thing. (brings up the whole, how 2 get activity on SB again instead of just a place to archive info where we're only useful for tier lists now) Especially since these days it's just mostly 2014 and so on members spamming in so many socials that they get to 20k postcount in such a short amount of time while fishing for 50k+ likes.
I'm sure we can come up with ways to bring activity to Smashboards. It's definitely something we could discuss in our meeting-that-has-to-happen-soon-but-still-needs-its-details-worked-out. I just feel that Discord could better facilitate BR meetings. And I know a lot of top players who are also BR members spend much more time on Discord than on Smashboards. As weird as it sounds, I think that by taking away some of this activity on Smashboards, we can eventually generate more activity on Smashboards.

Since discord isn't really the best place to keep stuff since it can be drowned out by talking or one channel just having so many different posts/threads with info, it all eventually gets too much that people don't feel like scrolling through it all or even forget that channel exists. ( I mean it's similar with people forgetting OP exists for threads but yeah)
The bar on the side shows just how many threads people would still need to scroll down for and open in a new tab which is enough to spook most people away.
Here's a screenshot from the Pika Discord's Resources channel:
It also has the problem of having a lot of content making it hard to find specific stuff. I was thinking of just replacing the stuff in that channel with a link to a directory thread of sorts on Smashboards so that everything can be organized better. But the Pikachu boards already has a directory so I don't know if I'd be allowed to make one there, especially if it's one that the Discord group mainly uses. (Then again, Pikabunz is like never there, so...:042:) For the BR though, there doesn't seem to be anything like that already here, so we'd be fine if we did something like that here.
Also, here's an example for how I think we could make the backroom here coexist with a Discord group: Liberation said the BR will be posting an article soon talking about certain interesting points about the tier list. People could use the Discord group to discuss these topics and bounce ideas off of one another. Once some semblance of a conclusion has been reached, their finalized thoughts could be gathered and posted in the proper thread for use in the article. This is basically the same thing as using Smashboards to archive stuff, but that's really the main thing this site has over newer, more popular platforms: its permanence.

I'd be up for a meeting of some sort. We need a way to contact the inactive here if we want to get as many members as possible though. A meeting with top players involved where we come out with something maybe just like promoting a twitter account would be *insanely* powerful, and that's just the start imo.
We could probably use Twitter and tweet/DM every member who doesn't come to Smashboards that often. The fact that it'd be on Discord would probably make it more appealing to top players like ZeRo, who do use that platform quite a bit. So that might help make some of the inactive members more active. And yeah, getting as many members to attend as possible is also very important. Though, when deciding the meeting time, I think the highest priority should be given to what works best for the leaders and the people who have been active here. They're the ones who've been trying to make the BR still run and regain activity, so they definitely need to be present at the meeting. And I also agree that improving our Twitter presence could be really helpful. That'd be a great way to start.
 
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Sinister Slush

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(Then again, Pikabunz is like never there, so...:042:)
K Prime is alive, he just does his own thing over smash now like pokken or playing anything else but smash lol

Also, here's an example for how I think we could make the backroom here coexist with a Discord group: Liberation said the BR will be posting an article soon talking about certain interesting points about the tier list. People could use the Discord group to discuss these topics and bounce ideas off of one another. Once some semblance of a conclusion has been reached, their finalized thoughts could be gathered and posted in the proper thread for use in the article. This is basically the same thing as using Smashboards to archive stuff, but that's really the main thing this site has over newer, more popular platforms: its permanence.
Way it can work is we have a channel for each of the characters that're going to be brought up in the article (so :4darkpit::4duckhunt::4littlemac::4link::4lucas::4lucina::4mii::4olimar:) and people that join the server can only post and see the flair channel then request for one character only so they can post in that characters one channel.
 
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PND

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I think content creation is the best use of the budget. Social media is huge, and importantly, it's transparent. I think the 4BR should remain private, but we can work on bridging the gap to people. We can highlight relevant bits of the discussions via podcast, articles, youtube videos. Basically, I think we need to step out of the shadows and promote ourselves.

Honestly, I'm thinking something like Cross Counter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt_EHDlzCKk

A podcast or video series where notable B'roomers talk about issues in Smash, highlight players accomplishments and upcoming tournaments. We can have a segment where we read viewer-submitted questions and comments, and really interact more with the common fans. We can get some top players involved as special guests to drive up viewership / listener-ship.

Just spit-balling, but I think if we want the 4BR to have real brand power we need to promote ourselves and produce content that inspires community confidence.
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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DisqoBunny
I really really really like the idea of some exposure in the form of videos/podcast/social media. Creators such as MySmashCorner and Beefy are already doing a great job with WiiU specific tech, and top players like ZeRo are doing their thing as well. 4BR could be in a prime postion to be a bridge between that, essentially becoming another source for players to use. Interviewing players, collaborations with other content creators, articles about smash4, talking with TOs, videos of tournamnets, highlights, a documentary series even.

Street Fighter and other FGC titles have these. I personally think Cross Counter and Core-A Gaming could be great examples of the kinda presence i think we could have
 
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