Starting roster already revealed (SamuraiPanda's Conspiracy Theoracy) [Final Update]

[Boofer]

There is absolutely nothing to support that. (Not talking about the third party thing, but Sakurai's not always right.)

Actually there is. Just about as much as there is to support Panda's theory, actually

 

[xbrinkx]

Actually there is. Just about as much as there is to support Panda's theory, actually

I'd like to see where.

 

[RandomGuy42]

You're blowing **** out of proportion. The "theoracy" is one man's opinion...an opinion he stated several times that he hopes is not even true nor was he claiming it is true. He made a logical and sound argument for it...something that most posters on these boards are mentally incapable of doing.

I never stated that it wasn't just his opinion nor that he is claiming it as fact. Neither did you even counter what I said, instead, you choose to go off and flame people.

Congratulations. You cannot hold your own in an argument.

 

[Boofer]

I'd like to see where.

Umm...every point has been made in this thread about 500+ times by now. All I have to say is Event Matches.

 

[xbrinkx]

Umm...every point has been made in this thread about 500+ times by now. All I have to say is Event Matches.

I still don't see where you're going with this. Sakurai said he wanted to reveal the full roster himself first. Why not use the dojo? Seriously, nothing can really be completely and wholly be supported 100% until we have the game in our Wiis and check it out. I still don't see all of the characters on the Dojo being starters. Seems weird to think that to me.

 

[Boofer]

I still don't see where you're going with this. Sakurai said he wanted to reveal the full roster himself first. [/quoe]

First of all, Sakurai's statements are not set in stone. Secondly, if you want to talk about what he actually said, lets look at the actual translation:

#251-260: Sakurai in response to an email asking that everything be unlocked as a default = "Well... that is a tough question. As long as the internet exists, all secrets will be revealed quickly. Sometimes even before the game comes out, even. Secret characters are one of the fun parts of Smash. Although you don't want to find out until the very end, I guess [literally: 'after all,' so there is no doubt in this statement] I'll reveal them. Again, just like "Smash fist" [literally: 'Sumabura ken,' the name of the Japanese SSBM site?] I can't just hold these characters back. "

Take it as you will, but he didn't necessarily say that he'd release them first. But he DID say that he'll reveal them just like Smash fist. Guess when they revealed the characters on Smash Fist: After the games release. Of course, like I said, this isn't set in stone and it is still fairly vague.

Why not use the dojo? Seriously, nothing can really be completely and wholly be supported 100% until we have the game in our Wiis and check it out.

Of course nothing can be wholly supported yet. If there was, there would be nothing to argue or talk about. This is our way of coping with the anticipation

I still don't see all of the characters on the Dojo being starters. Seems weird to think that to me.

Why not? Why does it seem weird to you? I think the opposite seems stranger, mostly because of Event Matches, Kirby and Zelda.

 

[xbrinkx]

Oy, sorry never actually seen the actual quote, yet heard it everywhere. Finally seen it. I heard on Show Me Your News that he wanted to reveal it first in an earlier episode. Where do you get this interview stuff? What I mean is that he's very unclear on his updates for event mode. Who knows, he could make it unlockable for all I know. Like I said, nothing's certain until we have the game in our Wii.

 

[Boofer]

Oy, sorry never actually seen the actual quote, yet heard it everywhere. Finally seen it. I heard on Show Me Your News that he wanted to reveal it first in an earlier episode. Where do you get this interview stuff? What I mean is that he's very unclear on his updates for event mode. Who knows, he could make it unlockable for all I know. Like I said, nothing's certain until we have the game in our Wii.

This thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72642

Oddly enough, it was also started by SamuraiPanda.

Feel free to reply, because more people need to see the actual quotes. I was gonna bump it, but I was the last post.

 

[blayde_axel]

This thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72642

Oddly enough, it was also started by SamuraiPanda.

Feel free to reply, because more people need to see the actual quotes. I was gonna bump it, but I was the last post.

Thanks. I was looking for that. You want me to bump it for you?

 

[Fordo35@aol.com]

If thats true it would suck at the end of SSE just announcement after announcement telling you that you unlocked a character that you already assumed you unlocked because he/she was playable in SSE but not in the starting roster.

Yes... wouldn't that be just tragic...

 

[SamuraiPanda]

For the most part I restructured the first post and changed some things around. I know I haven't included all the most commonly used arguments. I may or may not eventually add those, and counter points, in the future. If I feel like it.

 

[Boofer]

Thanks. I was looking for that. You want me to bump it for you?

sure, why not?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I still support this theoracy because it remains consistent with Nintendo's pattern of having the player unlock random characters. There used to be a WOW factor behind unlocking characters, but as SamuraPanda pointed out, everyone is going to know about hidden characters the instant the game reaches the public. So, it makes much more sense that Brawl would feature rapid unlocks instead of extended, dramatic ones.

 

[EDreams]

In this update's character select screenshot, Kirby is playable.

What now? Is there going to be claims that he took a screenshot from a build of the game that already had Kirby unlocked?

ETA: Not that it's really relevant to this thread, but I wasn't the first one to notice this. Credit goes to King Axel for the find.

 

[RandomGuy42]

In that case, you may as well mention Zelda. >_>

I have a better point that I'm bringing up in my next post.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

In this update's character select screenshot, Kirby is playable.

What now? Is there going to be claims that he took a screenshot from a build of the game that already had Kirby unlocked?

ETA: Not that it's really relevant to this thread, but I wasn't the first one to notice this. Credit goes to King Axel for the find.

They test all characters, so it's not unheard of to see a hidden character in screenshots.

 

[EDreams]

Yes, actually, we may as well mention Zelda. Since she also appeared in the following screenshots of the update that originally had this "starting roster".

This time, though, the screenshot of Kirby is from the actual pic of the select screen itself, not another match. I can't believe this theory has been going on this long, but the evidence against it is piling up every update while Panda and it's supporters bring absolutely nothing new to the table.

They test all characters, so it's not unheard of to see a hidden character in screenshots.

Then why are they hiding Kirby in the other pic of the select screen? :|

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Then why are they hiding Kirby in the other pic of the select screen? :|

Why is it so hard to grasp? In the full view, we see the entire select screen. Today, we see a zoomed in view with Kirby now available. How is this "proof" that Kirby is available from the start? Seriously, that is not proof in the least.

Sure, there is a large stockpile of arguments against the theoracy, and it's very possible it could be wrong, but you are going about proving it false the wrong way.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I still support this theoracy because it remains consistent with Nintendo's pattern of having the player unlock random characters. There used to be a WOW factor behind unlocking characters, but as SamuraPanda pointed out, everyone is going to know about hidden characters the instant the game reaches the public. So, it makes much more sense that Brawl would feature rapid unlocks instead of extended, dramatic ones.

I support the fact that the starting roster may be significantly downsized in comparison to Melee, but I just don't see the sense in making two of the first four characters you can play as in the main story mode unlockables. Not to mention how important those characters are to Nintendo, and their respective series' in general. I'll even take the BOTD and say Event Mode was an unlockable scenario. I'll be hella surprised, nay dumbfounded, but for now I'll consider it to be.

I could see the starting roster be somewhere around 8 or maybe even 6, or hell, 2 for that matter ([in order of priority via SsE] Mario and Kirby, Zelda/Peach, Pit, DK and Diddy, Fox[?]). I just don't see the point in making the "gimmes" characters that you'd need to work for. Maybe some "gimmes" that you'd find much later in SsE, but not the ones you'd find in the first two or three scenarios.

As far as I see it, I think that is the ONLY wrench in this theory. And I feel it to be a pretty goddam big wrench, at that.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

In this update's character select screenshot, Kirby is playable.

What now? Is there going to be claims that he took a screenshot from a build of the game that already had Kirby unlocked?

ETA: Not that it's really relevant to this thread, but I wasn't the first one to notice this. Credit goes to King Axel for the find.

In that case, you may as well mention Zelda. >_>

I have a better point that I'm bringing up in my next post.

Sorry if I double post, but this is just straight up dumb logic.

Let me take this moment to give a big *facepalm*

 

[RandomGuy42]

I still support this theoracy because it remains consistent with Nintendo's pattern of having the player unlock random characters.

Smash Bros has always been about unlocking random characters, yes, but in this case it just simply doesn't make sense.

Let's look at this from the casual point of view. Pandas argument even begins with "The Dojo is tailored for the casual smasher." but he seems to have barely given them a thought after that.

This is where things like the boxart argument come in. The casual who has only grabbed the game based on a recommendation from a friend will see Wario, Kirby and Pokémon Trainer right there on the cover, yet mysteriously be unable to use them in Vs. Mode. It makes even less sense when you consider that these characters are readily available in any other mode, such as Subspace Emissary and Events. And you can claim all you want that that is how they "might" be unlockable, but again, it makes very little sense to hide them away from just the one mode, only letting you use them after fulfilling a quick requirement. And lets be realistic: Is a casual, first-time Smash player going to rush headlong into Adventure Mode without knowing what they're doing, or are they going to get some practice in first with either Vs. or training mode? Hiding them away from that mode alone seems entirely unnecessary and pointless.

There used to be a WOW factor behind unlocking characters, but as SamuraPanda pointed out, everyone is going to know about hidden characters the instant the game reaches the public.

Again, this isn't the case if you regard casuals. They are not going to be on the internet 24/7 searching for the lastest up-to-date news on Smash, like we are. They will probably first hear of the game a week or so before launch.For them, unlocking the characters still has a purpose, and it utterly defeats the purpose of unlocking a character if you could already use them in another mode beforehand.

So, it makes much more sense that Brawl would feature rapid unlocks instead of extended, dramatic ones.

This part I can agree with. I still think that there will be one ultimate secret character that you have to really work for, but that would be about it. Especially with the online feature spoiling everything rapidly.


And on another note, todays update hid the character select screen again when explaining the Team Battle Mode. I honestly believe the reason that the E for All demo screen was shown was because he wanted to show the unique features of the online mode selection screen, such as the "Seeking" box, stage and icon tabs, and 40 second timer, without breaking it up into seperate screens or making it look messy. I guess it appealed to him better to have some form of select screen there instead of a blurred-out mess, unless you have some better answer.

EDIT: Dyce, you obviously completely missed the fact I was being sarcastic, hence the >_> face.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Naturally, the theoracy itself has no concrete proof behind it. It is merely suggestive of a possibility based on the currently developing "framework". However, this also reduces weight behind counter-arguments because unless Sakurai comes out and states "characters revealed thus far are start unlocked", everyone is just combating theories with more theories.

I suppose I become somewhat aggravated at attempts to point out one random detail (in this case, Kirby being on the character select screen) and using that to claim the whole theory has no credibility. Even I do not agree 100% with the theoracy, but I don't view it as an "all or nothing deal".

 

[EDreams]

There is far more than "one random detail" against this theory's credibility, and I think everyone pointing out these details knows that. There's been more than one random detail against it from the start, but it's just been piling.

Edit: Sorry if that came across as unnecessarily angry, not the intention.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Disagreements have been piling. Proof is nowhere to be found.

 

[RandomGuy42]

*Waits for a hopeful decent and hopefully rational rebuttal to my points*
__________________
*Doesn't expect to get one*

 

[EDreams]

Disagreements have been piling. Proof is nowhere to be found.

I think it's kind of ridiculous that the only proof that can possibly be accepted is the game coming out or Sakurai himself saying so. Everything else is worthless.

So what's the point of this thread then? For us to repeat "Well, until Sakurai says so..." over and over again while discussion gets nowhere? I don't get it.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Thanks for trying to inject some intelligence into this topic, Buzz. Which reminds me, I'm going to bed now, but I'll be IMing you tomorrow about some stuff since I'm finally done with my finals.

And lets be realistic: Is a casual, first-time Smash player going to rush headlong into Adventure Mode without knowing what they're doing, or are they going to get some practice in first with either Vs. or training mode?

Unless you bought the game with a friend (thus having prior knowledge of the game's co-op features), then without a doubt the first thing a casual player would do is go to Adventure Mode. It seems silly to even consider otherwise.

Again, this isn't the case if you regard casuals. They are not going to be on the internet 24/7 searching for the lastest up-to-date news on Smash, like we are. They will probably first hear of the game a week or so before launch.For them, unlocking the characters still has a purpose, and it utterly defeats the purpose of unlocking a character if you could already use them in another mode beforehand.

Remember the online update? Where Sakurai says that the hidden characters will be immediately spoiled through wi-fi? Yeah, thats how the purpose would be lost. So why not try to avoid that? Hook them on the single player modes by unlocking characters quickly. With that, you can kill 2 birds with one stone.

I guess it appealed to him better to have some form of select screen there instead of a blurred-out mess, unless you have some better answer.

You're actually saying Sakurai chose to put the demo roster on the Dojo because it looks pretty? Wow.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Well, at first it should have been taken as an "all or nothing" deal because Panda was basically saying: "This is the starting character roster screenshot".
Meaning: This is it, like it or not!

But now he's updated it to saying: "This is the starting character roster screenshot, or damm close to it."
Meaning: This might not be it exactly, but it's very close!

I don't think it's wrong at all anymore. I'm going to back it now.








(I wish we could say D-A-M-N and not have it edited.)

 

[EDreams]

Unless you bought the game with a friend (thus having prior knowledge of the game's co-op features), then without a doubt the first thing a casual player would do is go to Adventure Mode. It seems silly to even consider otherwise.

Are you kidding?

So what about people who buy it because it's a multiplayer game? What about people who do plan on playing the game with their friends with the characters on the box? Where are you getting the idea that the only thing a casual player could possibly want to do is play the Adventure mode, when Smash is known as and generally advertised as a multiplayer game? Even the Wii itself is more casually known for it's party games than anything else.

You're telling me Sakurai wouldn't let you enjoy the game, with the characters you already know about the second you look at the game, just because he wants you to play the single-player mode that some casual players might not even be interested in?

It seems silly to suggest that you wouldn't know about Smash's multiplayer just from looking at the back of the box. Can't deny the possibility that SSBB will also advertise itself as a multiplayer game on the front as well.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Are you kidding?

So what about people who buy it because it's a multiplayer game? What about people who do plan on playing the game with their friends with the characters on the box? Where are you getting the idea that the only thing a casual player could possibly want to do is play the Adventure mode, when Smash is known as and generally advertised as a multiplayer game? Even the Wii itself is more casually known for it's party games than anything else.

It seems silly to suggest that you wouldn't know about Smash's multiplayer just from looking at the back of the box.

The original statement said a casual who was a "first-time smasher," which is what I was responding to.

 

[EDreams]

The original statement said a casual who was a "first-time smasher," which is what I was responding to.

Back of the box. Possibly front of the box.

I don't know how you'd be able to miss that it's multiplayer game, even if you have no prior knowledge. Oh yes, and that doesn't disprove his training mode and vs. mode point at all... even if you're playing by yourself, do you expect every player to rush into the Adventure mode with no knowledge of how the game works?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think it's kind of ridiculous that the only proof that can possibly be accepted is the game coming out or Sakurai himself saying so. Everything else is worthless.

So what's the point of this thread then? For us to repeat "Well, until Sakurai says so..." over and over again while discussion gets nowhere? I don't get it.

I am not saying that people cannot disagree. I just have yet to hear a convincing opposite theory that attempts to make sense of the recent updates. It seems that people are more interested in shredding small segments of the theoracy (in hopes of eventually tearing it all down) instead of proposing an overall rebuttal. I would be interested to see a well-structured argument revolving around the idea that all current DOJO characters are the starting roster. SP put a ton of thought into this theory, and it is quite stable as a result. The rebuttals are tiny disagreements, and somehow these all add up to SP being wrong. >_>

Sweet, SP. I'll watch for you tomorrow.

 

[RandomGuy42]

Unless you bought the game with a friend (thus having prior knowledge of the game's co-op features), then without a doubt the first thing a casual player would do is go to Adventure Mode. It seems silly to even consider otherwise.

So you're saying that with absolutely no knowledge of how to play the game, the first thing someone would do would be to jump into the single player mode? I doubt that. And anyway, that was one part of my statement.

Remember the online update? Where Sakurai says that the hidden characters will be immediately spoiled through wi-fi? Yeah, thats how the purpose would be lost. So why not try to avoid that? Hook them on the single player modes by unlocking characters quickly. With that, you can kill 2 birds with one stone.

Did I forget to mention Wi-Fi in my post? ****, my bad. But again, this really doesn't apply to anything, and I'm not sure why you brought it up. Those who don't want it spoiled will avoid the mode, those that don't care won't. That has no bearing on what the starting roster itself will look like.

You're actually saying Sakurai chose to put the demo roster on the Dojo because it looks pretty? Wow.

Way to skirt the point entirely.
__________________
*Expectations... realized.*

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Back of the box. Possibly front of the box.

I don't know how you'd be able to miss that it's multiplayer game, even if you have no prior knowledge. Oh yes, and that doesn't disprove his training mode and vs. mode point at all... even if you're playing by yourself, do you expect every player to rush into the Adventure mode with no knowledge of how the game works?

No, but I do personally believe the vast majority will do so. Plus, when the few who played multiplayer first get tired of the mode quickly because of the lack of characters, then they'll jump into the Adventure mode.

Anyways, what we're arguing now is just personal opinion. We have absolutely no facts to substantiate our points for this.

Those who don't want it spoiled will avoid the mode, those that don't care won't. That has no bearing on what the starting roster itself will look like.

You were responding to the "WOW" factor from casuals. That will dissapear if they play Wi-fi. Do they think of this before they play? Some of them, yes. Others may not though. The point itself was less about what the starting roster would look like, and more about the reason why he'd use quick unlockables.

Way to skirt the point entirely.

Then would you rather I say outright what I was implying? That point, the point that Sakurai chose to put the demo roster on the Dojo because it looks pretty, is a very silly point. Why put it at all then? He could've just explained it. He's done that before. Or what about that one "Names" update? There was a giant blurry mess above Samus there. Quite the ugly screenshot. I sincerely doubt that the "prettiness" of the screenshot would be the reason to insert the demo roster.

And with that, I'm heading off to bed.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

So you're saying that with absolutely no knowledge of how to play the game, the first thing someone would do would be to jump into the single player mode? I doubt that. And anyway, that was one part of my statement.

Isn't that kinda normally what people do with new games? Jump right into the single player mode?
They either go straight into the main story which may or may not have a ******-proof first level tutorial, or hop into tutorial mode (if the game has one).

 

[RandomGuy42]

Then would you rather I say outright what I was implying? That point, the point that Sakurai chose to put the demo roster on the Dojo because it looks pretty, is a very silly point.

No, by saying this, you've made it clear you missed the point entirely. The point was, to quote myself, this:

I honestly believe the reason that the E for All demo screen was shown was because he wanted to show the unique features of the online mode selection screen, such as the "Seeking" box, stage and icon tabs, and 40 second timer.

I gave a reasonable suggestion for another reason why Sakuria may have chosen to show the demo screen. I even openly admitted I wasn't sure why he chose that rather then balcking out the roster. You just ignored the point and attacked a totally irrelevant part of my statement.

I just have yet to hear a convincing opposite theory that attempts to make sense of the recent updates. I would be interested to see a well-structured argument revolving around the idea that all current DOJO characters are the starting roster.

Deal. I'll try and put together something that gives reasonable reasons why the characters seen might be starter. It could be fun.

It seems that people are more interested in shredding small segments of the theoracy (in hopes of eventually tearing it all down) instead of proposing an overall rebuttal.

Just felt like pointing out this sentence struck me as rather ironic because the bulk of his post is countering points that claim that the statement "This could be the starting roster" is false.

SP put a ton of thought into this theory, and it is quite stable as a result. The rebuttals are tiny disagreements, and somehow these all add up to SP being wrong. >_>

Panda put a lot of thought into this, yes. However, lots of thought != stable argument. A lot of his arguments are still based on "I think that..." or "Maybe...", which doesn't give them a lot of solid backing. Thats why all these tiny nitpickings are being found, because by it's very nature this theoracy has a lot of holes.


Anyway, I'd best get to work on my counter-argument.

 

[RandomGuy42]

Isn't that kinda normally what people do with new games? Jump right into the single player mode?
They either go straight into the main story which may or may not have a ******-proof first level tutorial, or hop into tutorial mode (if the game has one).

Funny, becasue thats exactly what I said before Panda ignored it.

 

[EDreams]

No, but I do personally believe the vast majority will do so. Plus, when the few who played multiplayer first get tired of the mode quickly because of the lack of characters, then they'll jump into the Adventure mode.

That's blatant and obnoxious railroading. You don't force people to get bored with one mode so they play another... A good game designer never wants the player to get bored at all, on the very real chance that they decide to let the whole game collect dust upon getting bored. Which would indeed apply to the people who purchased the game for the multiplayer, not the single player. In a game with this much choice, you let them make their own decisions and play how they want.

Remember that in Melee, you never had to play the single-player modes at all. The option to unlock almost everything just by playing vs. mode over and over was available and given to you, if you weren't interested in the other modes. I'm confident that method of unlocking was added for that very reason.

Choice! I still fail to see why something like this would change for the sequel.

 

[Del Money]

I never stated that it wasn't just his opinion nor that he is claiming it as fact. Neither did you even counter what I said, instead, you choose to go off and flame people.

So sue me, I accidentally quoted the wrong person.

Congratulations. You cannot hold your own in an argument.

Apparently you can't either...especially when this is your thesis...

Another thing that makes me think this is all wrong is the fact it has "conspiracy" in the title?

That's blatant and obnoxious railroading. You don't force people to get bored with one mode so they play another... A good game designer never wants the player to get bored at all, on the very real chance that they decide to let the whole game collect dust upon getting bored. Which would indeed apply to the people who purchased the game for the multiplayer, not the single player. In a game with this much choice, you let them make their own decisions and play how they want.

You've actually just proven nothing. We already established that it's casual players who will more than likely jump right into the Subspace Emissary. While the competitive players jump right into VS mode until they get bored with the characters. Competitive players are not in the majority of the smasher population....casuals are. And I'm sure Sakurai is aware of this.

Though the Smash Bros series has always primarily focused on multiplayer fun, the layout for maximum enjoyment seems to hint that the 1-player mode be completed first as with most games that have a multiplayer mode. At the end of the day, it's up to the player where they want to being the game, but like you said before it's all about CHOICE. And if the competitive players choose to begin the game by honing their skills with a limited roster than that's diving into the rich and tempting Subspace Emissary, then that is their choice.

 

[Boofer]

"But even without this mode, given the proliferation of the Internet these days, the existence of hidden characters is going to get exposed anyway.
So, this time I’m moving in the direction of not being too hung up on hidden characters.
You can earn most characters by playing through Adventure Mode: The Subspace Emissary. For those of you who look forward to those encounters, I recommend you clear this mode before playing Basic Brawl.”

I believe this has been said before, but this quote really does nothing but say that he's not going to prevent people from seeing hidden characters online. Imo, this statement almost fits in with the "anti-theory" more than the theocracy.

Look at the usage of the word "hidden" to describe the characters. Why is he using this word? If these characters are on the boxart AND on his own site, why would he say that they are "hidden?" It seems to me the proper word would be "unlockable," because we know that the two aren't synonymous.

Also, it makes no sense to call a character on the official boxart "hidden." Unlockable, maybe, but hidden? No way.