Standing regrab on Ness/Lucas.

[Marc]

Considering the results on Dedede and it being brought up on the Dutch boards for the next major tournament, I think this warrants a poll as well. Should the standing infinite regrab on Ness and Lucas (I believe Marth and Pokémon Trainer can do this) be banned?

 

[Smasher89]

No, mashing out makes it only give around 3-7% damage, but makes it an edgeguyard oppoturnity...

 

[Luigi player]

No, mashing out makes it only give around 3-7% damage, but makes it an edgeguyard oppoturnity...

I also thought that, but there's a problem with this.

If Marth grabs them in the middle of FD (or near an edge, but faces the other side) and their % are like >100 you will have to mash a long time and will gain lots of %s until you're at an edge...

So it can be really bad.


Also, afaik Marth can do it to Lucas and Ness and Charizard only on Ness. Squirtle can also do it and it's even worse than with Charizard (since Chari moves forward quite a bit while grabbing). Not sure if Squirtle can do it to Lucas.
Bowser could do it, but he has 15 frames during his pummel where characters can air release... Does anyone know if Marth has a few frames where you can air break?

And DK could technically also infinite Ness and Lucas, but they can change the side in which they break free, so they could probably get free...


Grab release to an attack is allowed on them though, right? (even if those "infinites" get banned)


I don't think it should be banned. I feel like you can avoid it (avoid FD, stay on platforms/at edges and they even have projectiles while Marth does not).

 

[K@0S]

IIRC Ness can't air release if Marth buffers his pummels.

No, mashing out makes it only give around 3-7% damage, but makes it an edgeguyard oppoturnity...

3-7%*infinity=infinity... Do you even know what this is about ..?

 

[Flayl]

You can't buffer pummels, you can time them though.

 

[K@0S]

Right, then he has to time them.

 

[Calzum!]

yes ban it,
or you could limit it to how many re-grabs you do at anyone one point

 

[Lord Chair]

Ban.

It's just that gay. You can't really prevent getting grabbed in the relevant MU, no it's not even close to being equal to IC chaingrabs, there's no actual reason to allow it (after all, were not overly conservative Ameri****s).

Not really in the mood to address it all that heavily, especially since the general consensus seems to be pro-ban.

 

[Greward]

I don't care.

 

[Calzum!]

then why post >.<

 

[Luigi player]

IIRC Ness can't air release if Marth buffers his pummels.



3-7%*infinity=infinity... Do you even know what this is about ..?

Marth moves forward a little bit during the regrab so it is only a true infinite if there is a wall (and there isn't a static wall on any allowed stages).

So it can be avoidable or at least can be minimized by staying at edges, on platforms etc.

If you can't buffer pummels you could also air break, since the Marth/Chari/Squirtle probably won't be frame perfect (at least not all the time)...


Also I read somewhere that Lucas can move away enough so that Marth has to dashgrab which reduces space even more quickly/makes it harder. Not sure if it's true though.

 

[Lord Chair]

Marth moves forward a little bit during the regrab so it is only a true infinite if there is a wall (and there isn't a static wall on any allowed stages).

So it can be avoidable or at least can be minimized by staying at edges, on platforms etc.


Also I read somewhere that Lucas can move away enough so that Marth has to dashgrab which reduces space even more quickly/makes it harder. Not sure if it's true though.

In my experience, Marth barely moves at all. Even if he moves, he'll easily be able to rack damage until death percentage, which is really all that matters. This is with Ness.

Lucas can DI away slightly, and I'm not sure whether or not the CG on him is really banworthy (in the end, it'll end up doing 20-60% depending on mashing speed, stage, pummel speed, percentage etc.).

The edge/platform thing is a bit silly, it's like saying DDD's infinite on Luigi is not banworthy because Luigi can commit himself to numerous attempts to platform camp, failing in the process. Ness is capable of avoiding the grab, but not to the extent of never ever getting grabbed, that's just ridiculous. You'd be limiting a character to doing what he really cannot do all that good, effectively ruining the matchup in perhaps an rather cruel fashion.

 

[Luigi player]

In my experience, Marth barely moves at all. Even if he moves, he'll easily be able to rack damage until death percentage, which is really all that matters. This is with Ness.

Yes it's true that he barely moves, but he does move which doesn't make it a true "infinite" unless there's a wall.

The edge/platform thing is a bit silly, it's like saying DDD's infinite on Luigi is not banworthy because Luigi can commit himself to numerous attempts to platform camp, failing in the process. Ness is capable of avoiding the grab, but not to the extent of never ever getting grabbed, that's just ridiculous. You'd be limiting a character to doing what he really cannot do all that good, effectively ruining the matchup in perhaps an rather cruel fashion.

No, because Marth will probably only get 1-2 regrabs (a few %) or do an attack.

If DK/Luigi etc stay at an edge they can still be infinited.

 

[l!nk_aut]

does it break the game? no.

no ban required.

 

[Calzum!]

ban required...
tbh i cant think of any fighting games that dont ban an infinate that takes no skill to pull off

 

[Lord Chair]

does it break the game? no.

no ban required.

We banned food.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't ban stuff when there's no need.

 

[Bartolon]

Ban.

@Gheb: Do you have a standing hate vs low tiers x)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have a standing hate vs uncompetitive decisions in a competitive scene.

 

[K@0S]

So, to you, the standing infinite is competitive =[

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's not uncompetitive.

 

[Navn]

I have the same standpoint as on the DDD-debate. I do not think it should be banned. Maining a low-tier character will evidently result in you getting matchup-screwed - and improving the chances of weak characters should not be the reason for banning stuff.

This isn't even bad. There's the obvious "don't get grabbed", and you can get out near the edge.

 

[Marc]

The way it is now this will not be a standard rule.

 

[Flayl]

Have you guys noticed Overswarm is voting on a european poll.

Are you taking votes like these into account? It's bad enough how he pushes his pro-ban agenda on the tactical boards.

 

[cenel]

Perhaps it's better to not ban this otherwise we should consider banning pikachu's downthrow cg to like 100%+upsmasn on fox, because that also doesnt take any skill. Sheik's tilt lock on fox same thing. If we ban this kind of thing we really would have to ban more gay stuff like this. It's unfair to help ness/lucas against something gay and fox or any other character not. People that say that it doesn't take any skill should just gtfo. Hardly any chaingrab in brawl takes skill. Even the Ice Climber CG aren't hard at all. Just get 2ndary's for matchups like these. Otherwise it will give us so much trouble to find out what takes skill and what doesn't and what's fair and what isn't. If this rule makes it through it would only be natural to ban more gay infinites or 0-deaths.

 

[Lord Chair]

Have you guys noticed Overswarm is voting on a european poll.

Are you taking votes like these into account? It's bad enough how he pushes his pro-ban agenda on the tactical boards.

Beat me to it. I fail to understand how Americans keep voting on European polls. That's why this sort of thing should be taking to a sort of back room, or at least be done in a manner that excludes Americans from the voting process.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Perhaps it's better to not ban this otherwise we should consider banning pikachu's downthrow cg to like 100%+upsmasn on fox, because that also doesnt take any skill. Sheik's tilt lock on fox same thing. If we ban this kind of thing we really would have to ban more gay stuff like this. It's unfair to help ness/lucas against something gay and fox or any other character not. People that say that it doesn't take any skill should just gtfo. Hardly any chaingrab in brawl takes skill. Even the Ice Climber CG aren't hard at all. Just get 2ndary's for matchups like these. Otherwise it will give us so much trouble to find out what takes skill and what doesn't and what's fair and what isn't. If this rule makes it through it would only be natural to ban more gay infinites or 0-deaths.

This guy has a point. Because it is not an infinite, but it is a 0-death in most cases, it shouldn't be banned unless other finite CGs that kill are banned.

 

[Laem]

Perhaps it's better to not ban this otherwise we should consider banning pikachu's downthrow cg to like 100%+upsmasn on fox, because that also doesnt take any skill. Sheik's tilt lock on fox same thing. If we ban this kind of thing we really would have to ban more gay stuff like this. It's unfair to help ness/lucas against something gay and fox or any other character not. People that say that it doesn't take any skill should just gtfo. Hardly any chaingrab in brawl takes skill. Even the Ice Climber CG aren't hard at all. Just get 2ndary's for matchups like these. Otherwise it will give us so much trouble to find out what takes skill and what doesn't and what's fair and what isn't. If this rule makes it through it would only be natural to ban more gay infinites or 0-deaths.

i think a good way to say what's fair is to check for percent dependance: percent independant infinites should be banned, whereas locks(not infnites, so stuff like sheik and pika on fox) as they can only be started on low %, can stay legal. Make an exception for IC's(since its what they're all about and they got it on the entire cast) and ur done.

This'd mean ban marth's on ness, dedede's on several, keep locks legal.

Discuss.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Nah. Let's not.

 

[Tero.]

Perhaps it's better to not ban this otherwise we should consider banning pikachu's downthrow cg to like 100%+upsmasn on fox, because that also doesnt take any skill. Sheik's tilt lock on fox same thing. If we ban this kind of thing we really would have to ban more gay stuff like this. It's unfair to help ness/lucas against something gay and fox or any other character not. People that say that it doesn't take any skill should just gtfo. Hardly any chaingrab in brawl takes skill. Even the Ice Climber CG aren't hard at all. Just get 2ndary's for matchups like these. Otherwise it will give us so much trouble to find out what takes skill and what doesn't and what's fair and what isn't. If this rule makes it through it would only be natural to ban more gay infinites or 0-deaths.

Same for DDD.

Have you guys noticed Overswarm is voting on a european poll.

Are you taking votes like these into account? It's bad enough how he pushes his pro-ban agenda on the tactical boards.

You don't even know what's happening in the Back Room...

 

[Marc]

I most likely won't count Overswarm's vote (this right here is why all polls are public, in case of a close result I can go through the voters). I'm also of the opinion we should keep this restricted to Dedede's infinite and maybe Marth's/PT's standing regrab. I agree with Laem that percentage dependent stuff is more situational and shouldn't be banned.

Also, I think we might want to have a 2/3 majority before banning this. If it's this close, preserving the status quo is preferred. Dedede's was banned by an overwhelming majority and is also banned at some American tournaments.