Meta Stage Legality/Discussion Thread, MK III

[Crystanium]

I didn't want to make a thread about Lylat Cruise because I thought since there's a thread about stage legality and discussion, I'd ask a question here. Based on a guesstimate, how often do competitive players play on Lylat Cruise? There was a time where this stage or Duck Hunt were going to be selected as legal, and of course, Lylat Cruise earned the most votes. My brother suspects this was the case because not many people go to that stage. So what percentage would anyone knowledgeable enough say how often Lylat Cruise is selected out of other stages like Starterville, Dream Land (64), Battlefield, and Final Destination?

 

[Blitz Rawket]

Came to participate in this very discussion and yep, exactly as I guessed, Gamer is blacklisted. Ridiculous. The game foreshadows the one stage hazard it has by a good 5 seconds and it's actually hot af from a competitive/style standpoint because you can do things like combo somebody into it, and it's even survivable most of the time. With the exception of this single hazard that literally flashes a pair of headlights at you, it's basic, good sized, plenty of potential for hype competitive play, but no, I'm guessing people cry about lacking the necessary foresight to seek a shadowed area and Play Around It? jsyk I have a competitive background in other games and gotten to know competitive Smashers (who I've beaten) and this is the exact kind of thing that makes other communities think this game isn't anything worth taking seriously (it is but it's exactly that crybaby "but I didn't see it coming!" [when it's obvious] attitude that does this for the scene's image, and I'm against it being upheld as someone who loves and thrives in these games myself).

No disrespect intended but Come On. Like Norfair can be considered semi-fair but Gamer is blacklisted? Absurd. And I do like Norfair too.

 

[SJMistery]

Gamer's blacklisting I suppose has more to do with the randomly generated scenario and caves of life. Still, I am personally very permissive with stages (Guess that being a Greninja main, it comes with never having to worry about recovery problems) so I would allow anything that does not straight up murder you in a blink of a second with no warning or allow extreme camping, like Temple, boss stages, or 75M. See my "Gentleman" thread for more details.

 

[Blitz Rawket]

Thanks for the heads up! I do have a point of contention--if caves of life are an issue then, again--Norfair (it's half of what makes the stage what it is). And again I think there are examples of stages that are sensibly balanced even with hazards that don't get enough appreciation. I think a lot of concessions were made to cater to competitive sensibilities and still keep a lot of what gave Smash its identity starting out. To me, banning Gamer for having one hazard that sensibly balances its damage/launch around player % is tantamount to banning Hyrule Castle in 64 because of the tornado.

If there's one concession I can make to sound like less of a **** to some people, as much as I love 75m from a for-fun standpoint, that's a completely sensible ban.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well the list is almost entirely my own perception and very few people commented on it.
When I was making the list I thought to myself, "would I be okay if people gentleman'd to these stages?", if yes they'd be in the Red List, if not, Black. And to me, the Cave of Life effect is a huge offender for this.
I don't mind 9-Volt at all, or the random layouts, or anything except the possibility of a Ceiling making people live way, way longer than they should.

Probably it can be moved to Red with a note that only if CoL is not present, but it's kinda not very important, really.

This Cave of Life isn't enough to move Norfair because:
1) Lasts for few seconds before going away
2) Isn't even on a set cycle, its appearance is random.
3) Isn't entirely necessary to get in it when the Lava Wave appears, it can be avoided in other ways.
So, it's not nearly as potent.

 

[SJMistery]

One thing I wonder is if Mario Maker would have been considered for counterpick if there was competitive on 3DS. Most of the problems with the stage are unique to the WiiU version, as the 3DS version uses simpler layouts due to hardware constraints.

 

[Uffe]

• Miiverse
  • PROS
    • Basic shape
    • Static
    CONS
    • It cannot be selected in 3DS mode
    • The bottom of the stage may cause people to get stuck underneath
    • Almost identical to BF, possibly not unique enough to earn a separate spot in a stage list.

I don't understand the reason to use the 3DS as a controller in the first place. Most people have access to the GameCube controllers, Wiimotes, Classic Controllers. I don't know why people would restrict themselves to using the 3DS. Because of this small detail, that's a pretty bad reason for not having Miiverse as a legal stage. And there's nothing wrong with this stage being close to being like Battlefield. Last I checked, when Battlefield is banned, so is Dream Land.

 

[ぱみゅ]

• Miiverse
  • PROS
    • Basic shape
    • Static
    CONS
    • It cannot be selected in 3DS mode
    • The bottom of the stage may cause people to get stuck underneath
    • Almost identical to BF, possibly not unique enough to earn a separate spot in a stage list.

I don't understand the reason to use the 3DS as a controller in the first place. Most people have access to the GameCube controllers, Wiimotes, Classic Controllers. I don't know why people would restrict themselves to using the 3DS. Because of this small detail, that's a pretty bad reason for not having Miiverse as a legal stage. And there's nothing wrong with this stage being close to being like Battlefield. Last I checked, when Battlefield is banned, so is Dream Land.

To my understanding, many people do take Miiverse as an alternative to Battlefield (similar to FD and Omegas). I know my community does do that.
It is possible that some of the larger, sponsored events can not use it due to its music, but other than that I do not see a real reason not to legalise it.
As for 3DS, it's a person's choice, not much that we can do about it. They may not be able to play this particular stage because of it, but I don't see a big issue.

 

[Uffe]

To my understanding, many people do take Miiverse as an alternative to Battlefield (similar to FD and Omegas). I know my community does do that.
It is possible that some of the larger, sponsored events can not use it due to its music, but other than that I do not see a real reason not to legalise it.
As for 3DS, it's a person's choice, not much that we can do about it. They may not be able to play this particular stage because of it, but I don't see a big issue.

Miiverse used to be distracting because of the posts that would pop up in the background, so I never wished for it to be legal. But because the Miiverse site is no longer around, the pop ups don't show up, so I began to wonder why we couldn't have it as an extra legal stage, considering how certain stages that used to be legal no longer are, thus diminishing stage options. Another thing I'll never understand is the issue with the music. I know some streamers mute the music because of copyright infringement, or whatever it falls under. Again, I'll still never understand why this is a problem, considering those streaming the game own it in the first place. So lame.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Most Wii U setups at tournaments wouldn't have internet anyway, so the background messages were never an issue for me or any of my events (that's the main reason it wasn't even mentioned in the pro/con list).
Music is a bizarre topic I don't really want to talk much about. It can be a problem for some, it might not be for others, in reality, who really knows except the people at the very peak of the Large events' organisation?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yeah I never understood the message problem of Miiverse. I thought players just brought of that false excuse to prevent change. I for one, would love to have Miiverse since in my experience it removes the occasional roll under the ledge that Lucas and Ness mains can experience on Battlefield, Smashville, and Town & City when they recover from a certain angle from under the ledge.

When that happens there is no way to snap the ledge.

Edit: The few times I have seen Gamer on stream it was hype. I forsee players complaining about the RNG platform layouts to keep it out of competitive play.

Edit 2: Found these two videos that may spark discussion.

 

[Uffe]

Yeah I never understood the message problem of Miiverse. I thought players just brought of that false excuse to prevent change. I for one, would love to have Miiverse since in my experience it removes the occasional roll under the ledge that Lucas and Ness mains can experience on Battlefield, Smashville, and Town & City when they recover from a certain angle from under the ledge.

When that happens there is no way to snap the ledge.

Edit: The few times I have seen Gamer on stream it was hype. I forsee players complaining about the RNG platform layouts to keep it out of competitive play.

Edit 2: Found these two videos that may spark discussion.

More things Sakurai & Co. forgot to fix. I've lost a stock because of those weird angles plenty of times. I don't find myself getting gimped by the angles very often, however. And I didn't know that Miiverse would allow Ness and Lucas to slide up without being gimped by the stage. As for Gamer, what do you mean? Are you talking about the regular stage, or the Omega stage? Because I hate playing on the Omega stage version of Gamer, because the stage pans out. I had the same issue with the Omega Wario Ware stage back on the 3DS. Duck Hunt did the same, but the game was updated, making both those stages not pan out to where the players looked smaller.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I was referring to the regular version. The few times players have did button checks on that stags, the commentators and the in-person audience would get excited. Fighting and dodging the light, suspense, and confirming off or into the light has been a crowd pleasure from my experience.

 

[PixelSun]

I don't understand the reason to use the 3DS as a controller in the first place. Most people have access to the GameCube controllers, Wiimotes, Classic Controllers. I don't know why people would restrict themselves to using the 3DS. Because of this small detail, that's a pretty bad reason for not having Miiverse as a legal stage. And there's nothing wrong with this stage being close to being like Battlefield. Last I checked, when Battlefield is banned, so is Dream Land.

What about restricting Miiverse if the opponent is using a 3DS?

 

[SJMistery]

What about restricting Miiverse if the opponent is using a 3DS?

Best option by far. Sad that we 3DS players not only cannot enjoy Arena Ferox, Prism Tower and Yoshi's Island on big tournaments, but cannot even take advantage of our opponents getting distracted by the offensive posts.

 

[Uffe]

What about restricting Miiverse if the opponent is using a 3DS?

If they're using a 3DS as a controller? Honestly, I think it was stupid of Nintendo to make this possible, but also restrict the Miiverse stage if you decided to use the 3DS as a controller. How many people actually use the 3DS as a controller, specifically in the competitive scene? If nobody does, then I say we allow Miiverse.

 

[Vulgun]

Miiverse
I would argue that Miiverse is simply a good choice despite the "con" that it cannot be selected because an opponent is using a 3DS as their controller. The instances of someone actually utilizing a 3DS controller are so rare to the point where this con is negligible and shouldn't be taken so seriously.

Secondly, I do not understand why people wouldn't want it in the first place. While it's still the tri-platform stage archetype, it at least has one major difference in the fact that it has a Smashville-like stage bottom, which I dare say is possibly better than Battlefield since it's not as obstructive (i.e. jank happens a lot less). The other con that it has is also moot since it still has a strategy-changing main platform, as well as the fact we also allow Dreamland in the stage list anyway.

Lylat Cruise
If the point of our stage lists is to remove all instances of randomness in the game, then the community and those who make the rules for the game's competitive scene have completely failed at that task when legalizing Lylat Cruise. Lylat is a stage that I've been observing for a long while, and it is possibly one of the worst legal stages in this game, as well as one of the worst in the series. The main problem of the stage comes in the form of various glitches that most commonly occur on this very map.

These various issues include characters clipping through the stage, getting stuck underneath it, hitboxes clipping through the stage, unintentional stage spikes, etc. These issues simply come out at random and catch players completely off guard, no matter how frequently they occur, even. Due to the amount of random elements that can occur, this stage should have been a prime spot for being banned long ago, regardless of if people really wanted it back.

I simply do not understand the appeal of a stage that can glitch out at any moment and ruin a match.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

There is a video I saw recently that explains that all of the stage's "jank" is due to the stage tilting. Even knowing that, I think players mind still won't ve changed in favor of it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Getting stuck under Lylat is not a glitch. It's 90% fault of the player for not being aware of how to prevent it, and 10% fault of the character for lacking the options to recover properly at any given time.
Hitboxes and projectiles getting stuck isn't a problem of Lylat either, players just don't have the awareness of playing on slants.

 

[SJMistery]

only 80% case of the player not knowing how to prevent it

the remainder 9% is fault of the opponent for knowing how to edgeguard in a way that forces them in a bad position, and 1% premeditate explotation for some extra-juicy clip

 

[psychic.]

I will say I have died due to the tilts and weird glitches on Lyat cruise. It is probably the worst semi legal stage.