Meta Stage Legality/Discussion Thread, MK III

ぱみゅ

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#1
And so I finally decided to pull this.

ITT: We discuss stages. Pros, cons, possibilities and such.
Let's please keep this thread is more geared towards more informative kind of discussions, otherwise it would not really benefit either party.

Before you advocate for or against any stage, please be sure to understand it, a directory to every single stage's info can be found here: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-big-map-the-stage-directory.389466/

I may improve the OP's formatting and appearance later (I accept suggestions!).


GREEN LIST
Stages widely played and accepted.
  • Battlefield
    • PROS:
      • Static
      • Basic Shape
      CONS:
      • Possibly too big
      • Uneven underneath the main platform
      • Weird ledge behavior
  • Final Destination
    • PROS:
      • Flat and static
      CONS:
      • During a certain time the background will become very bright, some people claim it is distracting, blinding, or a straight-out visual hazard.
  • Smashville
    • PROS
      • Basic Shape
      • Mostly Static
      CONS
      • The platform may aid very early kills
      • The Balloon may get in the way for attacks, combos or some recoveries.
  • Town and City
    • PROS
      • Mostly Static
      • The top blastzone is shorter than on most stages
      CONS:
      • The top blastzone is shorter than on most stages
      • The platforms may aid for very early kills
      • The platforms may also carry characters away
      • The Balloon may get in the way for attacks, combos or some recoveries.
  • Dreamland
    • PROS
      • Basic Shape
      CONS
      • The bottom of the stage may cause people to get stuck underneath
      • Wispy's Windboxes may affect a match's course

YELLOW LIST
Stages that are accepted by some people but not by others
  • Omega Stages
    • PROS
      • Flat and Basic shapes
      • Static
      • Some feature walls below the main stage, aiding some recoveries
      CONS
      • Almost identical to FD, possibly not unique enough to earn a separate spot in a stage list.
  • Miiverse
    • PROS
      • Basic shape
      • Static
      CONS
      • It cannot be selected in 3DS mode
      • The bottom of the stage may cause people to get stuck underneath
      • Almost identical to BF, possibly not unique enough to earn a separate spot in a stage list.
  • Lylat Cruise
    • PROS
      • Unique shape
      • The tilting creates unique strengths and weaknesses
      CONS
      • The tilting creates unique strengths and weaknesses
      • The tilting may affect weak recoveries
      • Ledges may not work as expected.
      • The bottom of the stage may cause people to get stuck underneath
  • Duckhunt
    • PROS
      • Mostly flat
      • Unique platform layout
      • Bottom of the stage has walls, aiding some recoveries
      CONS
      • The Ducks may get in the way for some attacks or combos.
      • The platforms' edges are not clearly visible.
      • The Dog, while predictable, may affect a match's course
      ???
      • Has a 2-D effect on fighters removing the Z-Axis.

AMBER LIST
Stages that either:
A) Got some usage but got removed later from most lists.
B) Didn't get much testing but still got removed from most lists.
C) Have key features that some people dread.
  • Castle Siege
    • PROS
      • Is a transforming stage, each phase with unique features
      CONS
      • The second transformation is a walk-off, aiding very early kills.
      • The third transformation tilts the main platform, it may affect some recoveries
      • The transition phase may cause fighters to end off the main platforms.
      • In addition, it also pulls fighters down with it, making it difficult for them to recover.
  • Delfino Plaza
    • PROS
      • Is a transforming stage, each phase with unique features
      CONS
      • During transitions the top blastzone is drastically reduced, aiding very early kills.
      • Some transformations feature walk-offs, aiding very early kills.
      • During the "floating" phase, ledges may not work as expected.
  • Halberd
    • PROS
      • All 3 transformations have unique features.
      • Hazards are only present on one of the phases, and they all are easy to notice and avoid.
      • Its top blastzone is shorter than on most stages
      CONS
      • Its top blastzone is shorter than on most stages
      • Hazards are possibly too strong.
      • During the "floating" phase, ledges may not work as expected.
      • During the "deck" phase, fighters may get stuck underneath the stage.
  • Wuhu Island
    • PROS
      • Unique shapes and transformations
      CONS
      • Some transformations are possibly too big
      • Some transformations make water a hazard that may get difficult to avoid
      • Some transformations are walk-offs, aiding very early kills
  • Pokémon Stadium 2
    • PROS
      • The majority of the time is static
      • It features unique layouts, transformations and physics
      CONS
      • Some people are against any changes to the games' physics.
      • The "Flying" transformation may aid really early kills off the top.
      • The "Electric" transformation's conveyor belts can be very disruptive.
  • Umbra Clock Tower
    • PROS
      • Unique shapes and transformations
      • An alternative to a "big stage"
      • Every transformation and therefore any possible issue goes away after few seconds
      CONS
      • Possibly too big
      • One of the transformations features a platform that fighters can't go through, creating "cave of life" effects, or camping.
      • One of the transformations features a platform underneath the main stage, that can be camped on.
      • One of the transformations features a walk-off platform, aiding very early kills.
      • Some people claim that Fortitudo's roar is distracting.
      • Some people claim that the stage affects people sensitive to motion-sickness.

RED LIST
Stages where one-to-one combat is possible, but certain features may drastically change a match's course.
  • Mushroomy Kingdom U
  • Mario Circuit
  • Kongo Jungle 64
  • Skyloft
  • Norfair
  • Kalos Pokémon League
  • Windy Hill Zone
  • Peach's Castle 64
  • Super Mario Maker
  • Pirate Ship

BLACKLIST
Stages where certain elements make fair one-to-one combats next to impossible
  • Big Battlefield
  • Mario Galaxy
  • Mario Circuit Brawl
  • Jungle Hijinxs
  • Luigi's Mansion
  • Bridge of Eldin
  • Temple
  • Pyrosphere
  • Port Town Aero Dive
  • Wooly World
  • Yoshi's Island Melee
  • The Great Cave Offensive
  • Orbital Gate Assault
  • Onett
  • Gamer
  • Pilotwings
  • Coliseum
  • Flat Zone X
  • Palutena's Temple
  • Skyworld
  • Garden of Hope
  • Wii Fit Studio
  • Boxing Ring
  • Gaur Plain
  • 75M
  • Wrecking Crew
  • Willy's Castle
  • Suzaku Castle
  • PAC-LAND
  • Hyrule Castle 64
  • Midgar
:196:
 
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ぱみゅ

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#2
Reserved, just in case
EDIT: HOLY CRAP this took a while to do, specially because the site kept crashing while I was redacting stuff out (it made it exponentially more difficult and exhausting to do this [Thank you based Warchamp]).


I guess I don't need to specify that I am willing to move stages up or down the ratings I gave them depending on how discussions go.
:196:
 
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#3
I still see no reason to keep Battlefield over Miiverse as no one in their right minds would use the 3DS on Wii U. The GamePad is a better controller and comes with the console, so there is basically no reason to allow them in tournament. Duck Hunt's abnormal elements are predictable and thus not that bad. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to axe Lylat, but only if we replaced it with something else. If we chose to use Omegas, we should use Omega PacLand because it's the most different from the others in that it's both 2D and the sides extend down to the blast zone. I still think we should create a custom stage that is identical to Smashvile without the balloon.
 
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wizrad

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#4
Miiverse
Smashville
Omega Duck Hunt

I hate having so few stages, but these are indisputable. Why omega DH? Well, it has walls all the way down (unlike the other two stages), has no Z axis (unlike the other two stages), and has no screen KOs (unlike the other two stages). In addition to these three, I would likely add:

Castle Siege
Dreamland 64
Another contrasting omega

The only problem I see with Castle Siege is that it is asymmetrical. This is the same for Dreamland 64, except Whispy Woods also randomly causes wind. The other omega option is interesting, and I can see duos like Windy Hill Zone and Flat Zone being different enough (wall under stage, z axis, grass) to warrant the inclusion of more than one.

I dunno, man. There just aren't perfect stages, even throughout Smash's history. The only ones that come to mind are Melee Battlefield, Miiverse, and Final Destination. That's essentially two stages. Is it that hard to implement symmetrical, non-random stages into a fun fighting game?

Honestly, Smashville isn't even perfect. The moving platform and balloons cause asymmetry, which means that the side you spawn on could make a difference. Ugh. Perfection shall never be reached.
 

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#5
Eh, I am not a fan of having any Omega as a separate entity.
As someone who despises not having platforms, I would hate it to be unable to avoid FD/Omega/Smashville.
:196:
 

FamilyTeam

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#6
Another commonly cited con for Final Destionation is the background: The fact that there is a part that the stage flashes a massively bright light in the background creates two problems:
- It's an eye sore if you're playing at night or simply at bright monitors, which is common at tournaments.
- Projectiles are harder or simply impossible to spot during that transformation. Try spotting Pit's arrows. I bet you can't.
 

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#7
I don't like the idea of having two FDs either, but it's better than nothing? What about compound banning? If FD is chosen, the winner gets to ban from a pre-selected (by the TO) list of stages.
 
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#8
Another commonly cited con for Final Destionation is the background: The fact that there is a part that the stage flashes a massively bright light in the background creates two problems:
- It's an eye sore if you're playing at night or simply at bright monitors, which is common at tournaments.
- Projectiles are harder or simply impossible to spot during that transformation. Try spotting Pit's arrows. I bet you can't.
I agree here. The Omegas most like FD are BF, Miiverse, Palutana's Temple and Flat Zone. We should use one of those instead.
 

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#9
Another commonly cited con for Final Destionation is the background: The fact that there is a part that the stage flashes a massively bright light in the background creates two problems:
- It's an eye sore if you're playing at night or simply at bright monitors, which is common at tournaments.
- Projectiles are harder or simply impossible to spot during that transformation. Try spotting Pit's arrows. I bet you can't.
I forgot about that one, I'll add it to the OP
:196:
 

PGH_Chrispy

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#10
It may have already been discussed, but I think it's worth considering walk off stages like Wii Fit Studio for something more than insta-ban. The stage style is unique, just as different platform layouts are, and the challenges of a walk-off versus a ledge could give great diversity to the metagame. Unlike Brawl, chaingrabs aren't a concern; though things like Sheik fair chains could be problematic, they are escapable. It would also be a useful counterpick in specific matchups like Fox vs Bayo, since fair 1>infinity would no longer work.
 
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#11
It may have already been discussed, but I think it's worth considering walk off stages like Wii Fit Studio for something more than insta-ban. The stage style is unique, just as different platform layouts are, and the challenges of a walk-off versus a ledge could give great diversity to the metagame. Unlike Brawl, chaingrabs aren't a concern; though things like Sheik fair chains could be problematic, they are escapable. It would also be a useful counterpick in specific matchups like Fox vs Bayo, since fair 1>infinity would no longer work.
Yeah, especially since there are no MK D-tilt jab locks that go forever or Falco chain grabs. The only issue is that stages like this make stage control a gigantic part of the game as opposed to one of the many pieces of Neutral, as if you are close to a corner you are able to be killed by moves like Tatsumaki, rapid jabs, Diddy's Fair and Mewtwo's shadow ball at absurdly low percents. This puts characters with poor mobility at an even more gigantic disadvantage than they already are.
 

paperchao

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#12
Walk-offs are really only ok if they're temporary, or else you end up with a game of extremely high risk high reward that can make matches less about skill, and more about getting a combo or grab into the walkoff for garenteed kills. Characters with high base knockback moves or horizontal combos will have a skewed advantage towards them as they only need one hit or so to nab a kill. other stages with temporary walkoffs like umbra can be waited out, meaning the person camping on said walkoff will be put into disadvantage at the ledge after it leaves.
 
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#13
Can I join in and about the stages that move you from one place to another? I'd love to see stages like Skyloft, Delfino Plaza, or Wuhu island be legal. Can we discuss that?
 
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#14
Can I join in and about the stages that move you from one place to another? I'd love to see stages like Skyloft, Delfino Plaza, or Wuhu island be legal. Can we discuss that?
These stages are banned mainly because the transformations can be pretty wild and asymmetrical. Also Whuhu and Skyloft have hazards, but IMO those are not as bad as walk-offs, potential infinite walls and water.
 
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#15
I only think that a stage is bad if they have hazards that damage you and can potentially kill you...assymetry doesn't matter much to me but I can see how that can be a problem in some cases.
 

paperchao

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#16
Wuhu only has the balloon and the water as hazards to my knowledge, both of which only last a couple of seconds. mario kart 8 and skyloft are the ones with environmental damage. But wuhu is really big as a stage and may be prone to circle camping (probably only in extreme cases only tho)
 

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#17
I think not many people really care about stages being asymmetrical, I mean, it's not like that's a deciding factor.
:196:
 

paperchao

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#18
So for umbra clock tower, how easily can someone camp the stage in base form? camping the platforms will eventually put you into disadvantage due to them lasting for only 15 seconds and going away. The stage otherwise seems like a big blastzone version of town and city, where you deal with multiple platform layouts throughout the match. motion sickness is still a problem tho, maybe mods can help to fix that?
 

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#19
I wasn't sure on how to present arguments/counterarguments in the OP.
Also, mods is never a good idea for a healthy, inclusive competitive community.
:196:
 
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jet56

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#20
OMG thank you so much for creating this thread! We have needed something like this for a long time. I might ramble with a lot of text, so sorry in advance:

Eh, I am not a fan of having any Omega as a separate entity.
As someone who despises not having platforms, I would hate it to be unable to avoid FD/Omega/Smashville.
:196:
I won't lie in saying i have a HUGE bias and would love the idea of having two separate FD like stages, but i can understand why most people wouldn't like this. There is however, something that must be pointed out.

DL and BF both count as separate stages. Yes, i understand they have enough differences that might warrant separate stages, but layout wise they are quite similar. However the same argument can be made for Omega stages vs FD. Some have walls, and even the terrain itself can affect ground speed and traction (green hill zone omega). So, if we have two BF like stages, why can we not have 2 FD like stages? if people are so worried about playing on a flat stage, grant them 2 bans, to get rid of both. this also allows someone like myself who can't stand tri platform stages the ability to also ban both BF and DL, to get rid of this inherent issue. I fail to understand why we have both DL and BF listed as separate stages legally, but FD as only one. You can even make it so one ban will eliminate both tri platform stages, the same way some regions allow omegas and FD, but one ban strikes alll Omegas and FD stages.

So for umbra clock tower, how easily can someone camp the stage in base form? camping the platforms will eventually put you into disadvantage due to them lasting for only 15 seconds and going away. The stage otherwise seems like a big blastzone version of town and city, where you deal with multiple platform layouts throughout the match. motion sickness is still a problem tho, maybe mods can help to fix that?
This is a stage i feel was unfairly axed from competitive play too early. from my memory, it was hardly legal when it was released, and only a handful of weeks at that. People bring up all these issues about the stage layouts, but not only are they all brief in terms of how long they are out, but they are also reactable, and will not kill you if they carry you up (it will force you off and you will fall back to stage), which is something that T&C has done and affected competitive matches (Seagull joe vs Rayquaza) and is still legal despite that.

The other argument that is made is how the platforms will cheese the opponent one way or another (walk-off platforms lead to early kills, the solid stage platform saving stocks, camping on the bottom platform, etc.) The main issue i have here is that not only are these avoidable in almost all scenarios, the platforms in and of themselves will disappear after a short time. If you don't want to deal with someone camping below, wait the 30 seconds out, there is 6 minutes on the clock. don't want to get killed early due to a walk-off? hold center stage till the platforms disappear. People act like these transformations are centralizing to how the stage functions, when it really isn't the case. there are 7 stage transformations, and only 3 present brief and minor problems. which means at most you will deal with 1:30 that may affect the gameplay, and 4:30 seconds of it not doing so. People find reasons to justify stages like DH and T&C, which states in the OP has similar cons (T&C early kills=Walk off trans. for UCT, Campy transformation=Tree camping on DH) yet use these same reasons to justify the ban of UCT.

The whole "well it's distracting and causes motion sickness" argument is funny to me. Again, FD is legal despite a similar flaw, yet UCT is not? Also, this is a subjective argument. I personally can play on either stage without any problems, so this argument is invalid. The problem here is that if the argument "distracting" is going to be taken into account, it needs to be done so for all stages not just one. It's a double standard, and when making or changing a competitive ruleset, this should not be allowed.

Overall, i don't like the lack of consistency in our stage choice and in justifying there legalization/banning. I understand that it can be case by case, but it can't be to the point where the same arguments for having a stage banned is ignored about a current legal stage.
 
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paperchao

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#21
OMG thank you so much for creating this thread! We have needed something like this for a long time. I might ramble with a lot of text, so sorry in advance:


I won't lie in saying i have a HUGE bias and would love the idea of having two separate FD like stages, but i can understand why most people wouldn't like this. There is however, something that must be pointed out.

DL and BF both count as separate stages. Yes, i understand they have enough differences that might warrant separate stages, but layout wise they are quite similar. However the same argument can be made for Omega stages vs FD. Some have walls, and even the terrain itself can affect ground speed and traction (green hill zone omega). So, if we have two BF like stages, why can we not have 2 FD like stages? if people are so worried about playing on a flat stage, grant them 2 bans, to get rid of both. this also allows someone like myself who can't stand tri platform stages the ability to also ban both BF and DL, to get rid of this inherent issue. I fail to understand why we have both DL and BF listed as separate stages legally, but FD as only one. You can even make it so one ban will eliminate both tri platform stages, the same way some regions allow omegas and FD, but one ban strikes alll Omegas and FD stages.


This is a stage i feel was unfairly axed from competitive play too early. from my memory, it was hardly legal when it was released, and only a handful of weeks at that. People bring up all these issues about the stage layouts, but not only are they all brief in terms of how long they are out, but they are also reactable, and will not kill you if they carry you up (it will force you off and you will fall back to stage), which is something that T&C has done and affected competitive matches (Seagull joe vs Rayquaza) and is still legal despite that.

The other argument that is made is how the platforms will cheese the opponent one way or another (walk-off platforms lead to early kills, the solid stage platform saving stocks, camping on the bottom platform, etc.) The main issue i have here is that not only are these avoidable in almost all scenarios, the platforms in and of themselves will disappear after a short time. If you don't want to deal with someone camping below, wait the 30 seconds out, there is 6 minutes on the clock. don't want to get killed early due to a walk-off? hold center stage till the platforms disappear. People act like these transformations are centralizing to how the stage functions, when it really isn't the case. there are 7 stage transformations, and only 3 present brief and minor problems. which means at most you will deal with 1:30 that may affect the gameplay, and 4:30 seconds of it not doing so. People find reasons to justify stages like DH and T&C, which states in the OP has similar cons (T&C early kills=Walk off trans. for UCT, Campy transformation=Tree camping on DH) yet use these same reasons to justify the ban of UCT.

The whole "well it's distracting and causes motion sickness" argument is funny to me. Again, FD is legal despite a similar flaw, yet UCT is not? Also, this is a subjective argument. I personally can play on either stage without any problems, so this argument is invalid. The problem here is that if the argument "distracting" is going to be taken into account, it needs to be done so for all stages not just one. It's a double standard, and when making or changing a competitive ruleset, this should not be allowed.

Overall, i don't like the lack of consistency in our stage choice and in justifying there legalization/banning. I understand that it can be case by case, but it can't be to the point where the same arguments for having a stage banned is ignored about a current legal stage.
Yea, I think umbra only stuck around for a week in most areas before it was banned, so I'm not sure if players got enough time to develop the meta for this stage, as it is really one of the more normal non 64 stages we got through dlc. And it would give a second big stage to allow more options in counterpicking.
 

Ulevo

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#22
I am not sure if there is really much discussion to be had given how far the meta has advanced since we first began discussing stages. There are only a few decisions that need to be standardized at this point:

• 7 Stages Game 1 vs 5 Stages Game 1 + Counter Picks Game 2+
• Legalization of Duck Hunt, Lylat Cruise

These are the common issues occasionally brought up. I think the 7 stage strike system is the superior choice, and it is the system most tournaments run. It allows for more options and is more balanced relative to characters like Zero Suit Samus who would otherwise have a strong advantage first game with Battlefield + Dreamland in a 5 Stage Game 1 system. I think people realize that even though they largely dislike Lylat, there is nothing wrong with the stage. You might not be able to memorize the tilt patterns, but you can see when the stage is tilting as it happens. Since its patch, recovery on the stage is also largely a non-issue.

Duck Hunt is a potential problem. I used to think this stage was a healthy addition, and in many ways it is. However, it has a few abuse cases, such as with Bayonetta. The dog often interferes in a match in "unexpected" ways, though it can be accounted for if you pay attention. The Ducks however cannot be accounted for, and I have won and lost sets because the Ducks tanked a hit at the wrong time.

I think Dreamland is way more horse**** than either Lylat or Duck Hunt. The camera angles on the stage make it so at times you cannot see when Whispy begins to blow, and this can lead to spacing errors, flubbed combos, missed kill moves, failed edge guards and other problems that you do not realize are happening until the camera zooms out. That being said this stage will never be brought into question by the larger community because it has been played since N64, so discussion is largely pointless.

Castle Siege deserves to be a legal stage in my opinion. All of its elements per transformation are static, predictable, and the positives it adds to stage diversity outweigh the problems that come with it. However, like with Dreamland, it is unlikely the community will ever consider reintroducing it into competitive play.
 

jet56

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#23
I am not sure if there is really much discussion to be had given how far the meta has advanced since we first began discussing stages. There are only a few decisions that need to be standardized at this point:

• 7 Stages Game 1 vs 5 Stages Game 1 + Counter Picks Game 2+
• Legalization of Duck Hunt, Lylat Cruise

These are the common issues occasionally brought up. I think the 7 stage strike system is the superior choice, and it is the system most tournaments run. It allows for more options and is more balanced relative to characters like Zero Suit Samus who would otherwise have a strong advantage first game with Battlefield + Dreamland in a 5 Stage Game 1 system. I think people realize that even though they largely dislike Lylat, there is nothing wrong with the stage. You might not be able to memorize the tilt patterns, but you can see when the stage is tilting as it happens. Since its patch, recovery on the stage is also largely a non-issue.

Duck Hunt is a potential problem. I used to think this stage was a healthy addition, and in many ways it is. However, it has a few abuse cases, such as with Bayonetta. The dog often interferes in a match in "unexpected" ways, though it can be accounted for if you pay attention. The Ducks however cannot be accounted for, and I have won and lost sets because the Ducks tanked a hit at the wrong time.

I think Dreamland is way more horse**** than either Lylat or Duck Hunt. The camera angles on the stage make it so at times you cannot see when Whispy begins to blow, and this can lead to spacing errors, flubbed combos, missed kill moves, failed edge guards and other problems that you do not realize are happening until the camera zooms out. That being said this stage will never be brought into question by the larger community because it has been played since N64, so discussion is largely pointless.

Castle Siege deserves to be a legal stage in my opinion. All of its elements per transformation are static, predictable, and the positives it adds to stage diversity outweigh the problems that come with it. However, like with Dreamland, it is unlikely the community will ever consider reintroducing it into competitive play.
This brings up an interesting point. WHO DECIDES THE STAGELIST?
Honestly, this has always been a question that has been on my mind for quite some time. While it is true that it is decided region by region, i notice more often than not that once a supermajor is announced (EVO, Genesis, etc.) people will follow THAT ruleset, even if there are changes in the ruleset from previous ones. This was how Halberd, Castle seige, and Delfino all got phased out at the same time, since G3 didn't have a single one of those stages legal in their rule set. This leads me to believe that while rulesets are still decided per region, the smash stage list/ ruleset changes when the T.O.s and organizers of said super major follow the trend and voices of the Vocal smash 4 community (even if the opinion isn't that of the silent majority.)

Just what i can gather from anyways. I still hold hope that we can change the stage list, as we have seen it happen before, years down the line (like pokefloats and rainbow cruise being banned after years of play in melee).

My list of stages that should be added or at least tested:
Omegas (either as a seperate stage to FD, or as an alternate to FD)
Umbra Clock Tower (Separate stage)
DL (Make an alternate to BF if one of the two stages above is added, to keep the 7 stage 1 ban list)
 

lordvaati

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#24
*comes back after like a year*

woo, I like that format, even If I do feel UCT might be yellow tier since it shares the same arguments as higher ranked ones like FD(sans the solid platform, which I argue is a non factor as going back to Melee the mountain appearing in PS1 didn't effect it's placement despite creating wall infinite potential.)

Also while I know the majorty of the game is Wii-U focused I d feel the 3DS stages still warrant some mention such as Lumiose and Yoshi's Island being Green/Yellow worthy.
 
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ぱみゅ

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#25
I am SO.VERY.GLAD someone said they liked the format, I spent a couple hours in the writeup. ♥

About 3DS stages, I guess we can compile their points if they gather enough interest from this thread's participants.
:196:
 

paperchao

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#26
It'd be interesting to see both umbra and castle siege be given some sort of retest phase, as I feel those two stages might be the stronger options to bring back. They both at least have some features to distinguish themselves from the other stages and give more options in a counterpick phase.
 
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lordvaati

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#27
If 3DS came into the mix, I'd generally see it as

Green-Final Destination,Battlefield, Dream Land,Yoshi's Island

Yellow/Green-Omegas, Prism Tower

Yellow-Duck Hunt, Arena Ferox

Yellow/ Amber-Umbra Clock Tower, Reset Bomb Forest

Amber-Brinstar, Tamodachi Life


Red/Black-the rest

I also second the possibility of further UCT testing.
 

FamilyTeam

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#28
I hope people have noticed this already, but...
Basically, what causes the infamous Lylat jank of you hitting your head under the stage and not snapping to the ledge despite you being very close to it is the fact that when one half of the stage tilts down, for no good reason at all, you cannot slide to the ledge to snap on to it at all on that lower half, and snapping on to the ledge gets more inconsistent. This is a glitch, in my book, because there is no discernible reason why the stage would intentionally work like this. Here's a video:
When the stage isn't tilted or when it's tilted up, you can recover and slide to the ledge absolutely fine and snapping is more consistent. But snapping is just that: More consistent, it still kinda works like arse for, again, seemingly no good reason.
Why is this stage legal again? Refresh my mind.
 

paperchao

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#29
I hope people have noticed this already, but...
Basically, what causes the infamous Lylat jank of you hitting your head under the stage and not snapping to the ledge despite you being very close to it is the fact that when one half of the stage tilts down, for no good reason at all, you cannot slide to the ledge to snap on to it at all on that lower half, and snapping on to the ledge gets more inconsistent. This is a glitch, in my book, because there is no discernible reason why the stage would intentionally work like this. Here's a video:
When the stage isn't tilted or when it's tilted up, you can recover and slide to the ledge absolutely fine and snapping is more consistent. But snapping is just that: More consistent, it still kinda works like arse for, again, seemingly no good reason.
Why is this stage legal again? Refresh my mind.
I think the reason why it doesn't let you slide up while tilting down is because it might act like a flat bottom like smashville or town and city, where going directly up kills you usually since you don't move at all (not the curved lip of those stages). But yea it's pretty strange how even after the patch it still rejects recovery like that, but I don't think that alone is enough to ban, since you can adjust your recovery to not hit the bottom of the stage and live.
 
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FamilyTeam

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#30
Also, about Dreamland... This happened to me yesterday and it is worth noting:
Wispy can blow shield break victims out of the stage and make them regain conciousness instantly, not allowing them to get punished.I've seen this happen once or twice in matches on that stage, and it happened the first time to me while I was playing someone yesterday on 3DS. That... is honestly pretty stupid, really. It's not like you can choose when to break your opponent's shield, you just find the opportunity and do it, and to have the stage just randomly decide you're not gonna get anything off of that is frankly inexcusable. I didn't mind at the time, because I was plenty far ahead in the match to begin with, but this might happen in more inconvenient times to some other people, sadly.
Far more rarely, however, getting your shield broken at the very edge of the stage while Wispy is blowing will get you KO'd instantly as you're blown off the stage.
 

lordvaati

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#31
being honest DL has been a bit of an issue even in the early days for some, the only problem is stage bans in Smash tend to take ripple effects(one stag gets banned in a newer game and then suddenly same stages are up for ban in older ones....see Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar/Corneria) and Dream Land is the only stage left in 64, so....

On the other hand, EVERY stage has it's issue(seriously you cannot believe how many years people argued for Final Destination of all stages to be a counterpick) so it's just inevitable that some stages will have some jank elements, legal or otherwise-this IS Smash Bros after all.
 

DJBor

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#32
Is this the right place to ask about the future of custom neutrals? It seems like this version of the stage editor could make some easy-to-build custom neutrals a standard in tournaments, especially with grid mode. And they'll all have the same blast zones, which I think is equal to either an Omega stage or Battlefield? Should I make a poll, or just start discussion here?
 

SCOAKS5

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#33
So with the Nintendo Switch coming soon, and rumors of a new version of Smash 4 coming to the Switch with a few new characters, it isn't foolish to assume that there may also be additional stages coming to the Switch. So that got me thinking, what if they just bring all of the 3DS stages onto the Switch? With that thought, I wondered about the legality of these 3DS exclusive stages. Below is a list of all of the 3DS exclusive stages. What stages do you think would be legal for competitive play?

  • 3D Land
  • Arena Ferox
  • Balloon Fight
  • Brinstar
  • Corneria
  • Distant Planet
  • Dream Land
  • Find Mii
  • Flat Zone 2
  • Gerudo Valley
  • Golden Plains
  • Green Hill Zone
  • Jungle Japes
  • Living Room
  • Magicant
  • Mushroomy Kingdom
  • Mute City
  • Pac-Maze
  • Paper Mario
  • PictoChat 2
  • Prism Tower
  • Rainbow Road
  • Reset Bomb Forest
  • Spirit Train
  • Tomodachi Life
  • Tortimer Island
  • Unova Pokemon League
  • WarioWare, Inc.
  • Yoshi's Island
 
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paperchao

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#34
So with the Nintendo Switch coming soon, and rumors of a new version of Smash 4 coming to the Switch with a few new characters, it isn't foolish to assume that there may also be additional stages coming to the Switch. So that got me thinking, what if they just bring all of the 3DS stages onto the Switch? With that thought, I wondered about the legality of these 3DS exclusive stages. Below is a list of all of the 3DS exclusive stages. What stages do you think would be legal for competitive play?

  • 3D Land
  • Arena Ferox
  • Balloon Fight
  • Brinstar
  • Corneria
  • Distant Planet
  • Dream Land
  • Find Mii
  • Flat Zone 2
  • Gerudo Valley
  • Golden Plains
  • Green Hill Zone
  • Jungle Japes
  • Living Room
  • Magicant
  • Mushroomy Kingdom
  • Mute City
  • Pac-Maze
  • Paper Mario
  • PictoChat 2
  • Prism Tower
  • Rainbow Road
  • Reset Bomb Forest
  • Spirit Train
  • Tomodachi Life
  • Tortimer Island
  • Unova Pokemon League
  • WarioWare, Inc.
  • Yoshi's Island
Yoshi's island brawl is an easy addition to the stage list as it was legal in brawl. Prism tower also has a decent shot, but it's a new stage, so people aren't familiar with it and could be banned over something happening due to inexperience on the stage. Those are the only 2 stages I feel that have a shot at the stage list from 3ds, cus stuff like arena ferox and tomodachi life could be too big in a meta with good mobility and all the flipkicks on characters.
 
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#35
There are some point's in Skyloft that I think if they were stages them selfs, would be a competitive stage.
Then again I have the brain of a sloth so it could just be me.
 

SJMistery

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#36
I speak of 3DS only:

I would prefer to have as more stages as possible, and as long as there aren't crazy hazards or implayable sections like Paper Mario or Midgard, i'm good.
That's why I propose something: the stages with avoidable hazards that can be potentially dangerous but are predictable, like the F-Zero track (okay, it has no below blast zone, so what? Whoever falls down to the track will rocket upwards instead) or the Unova Pokemon League I know, Reshiram is annoying when it blocks the central section, but otherwise, the stage is quite cool, in particular when the temporary stairs fall down), or have walk-offs like UBC or Suzaku Castle (I will never get why walk-offs are so reviled, who would be dumb enough to stand near the edge on the first place?), be automatically considered a "super-counterpick", only available if you are 2 games behind your opponent, but legal in those circumstances.


And, is the WiiU Boxing Ring much bigger than the 3DS Boxing Ring or something? Because jjudging by the 3DS model, having it blacklisted is a little excessive.


By the way, sorry but I can't keep a straight face looking at some cons. "Distractng sounds and lights" in particular... Has people forgotten that the "mute" and "reduce contrast" buttons exist on every single TV's remote control?
 
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FamilyTeam

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#37
By the way, sorry but I can't keep a straight face looking at some cons. "Distractng sounds and lights" in particular... Has people forgotten that the "mute" and "reduce contrast" buttons exist on every single TV's remote control?
We already talked about this.
Most tournaments have their monitors turned up really bright because of lighting. It doesn't offuscate you as much if you're not in the dark, but if you are, it's blinding.
Distracting sounds could be bad for people who are actually listening to the game. Some people use audio cues to listen to moves, movement (both in their part and their opponent's) and even more niche roles like tech-chasing, like Omni demonstrated recently.
 

SJMistery

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#38
Well, then, it still sound like johns. I mean, if it really is a problem for you and you know it, that's sunglasses and earplugs are for...
And unless a move is VERY laggy, by the moment you hear the sound of it activating, it has already hit you, I think the Smash Central made a good video about that.
 
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FamilyTeam

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#39
Having to wear sunglasses just because of visual hazards on a stage isn't exactly very cool, especially since they're gonna impair your vision for any other situation other than whenever that pops up.
And again: the sounds are necessary. Some people use them to aid them in their play. Tech chasing is one of them. And it's not like the sounds a stage make are even gonna be that big of an issue anyway.
 

ぱみゅ

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#40
While sounds may be necessary, a lot of the bigger venues have so much background noise that it's really difficult to properly listen the game.

That being said, just as anything else, your hearing capabilities can be practiced and improved. You won't get distracted by sounds if you're familiar enough with them.
:196:
 
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