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Meta Stage Legality/Discussion Thread, MK III

PoptartLord

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A few responses before getting into stage specific stuff: Asymmetry is a non-issue. There are already several asymmetric legal stages (Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt, Battlefield). If anything it can make stages more interesting and reward positioning / stage knowledge.

Distracting backgrounds: There are no backgrounds in this game which are that bad. I have not once, ever, lost track of either myself or my opponent due to the background. Stop complaining and learn to focus.

Sounds: Audio cues are absolutely a thing. The venue I go to every week has monitors with weak speakers and it was really messing with my gameplay. So now I bring my own speakers (TO approved) and the most common reaction I get is "finally, I can actually hear what's going on now!". And if outside speakers are not allowed I'd go back to my previous solution of bringing a headphone jack splitter and two sets of headphones.

Green Stages:
Battlefield: To elaborate on the first post, there's a snag on the left underside of the stage. Let's say you're playing Mario - you could up+b into the stage and slide up it to the ledge. But if you hit the snag you'll stop sliding and fall to your death. It's a little ways down, making it really easy to avoid.
I find that a bit more time is spent offstage here than on other stages, assuming the characters use horizontal-knockback moves. Having a long recovery comes into play a bit more as well.

FD: I am almost morally opposed to a stage not having platforms in a platform fighter; but that's just my own bias. Practically speaking, without platforms I find it harder to approach characters with projectiles since all I can do is head straight towards them. That and there are fewer ways to land, making "poor landing options" a worse character trait.

Smashville: This stage is in no way "neutral"; I'd call it jankier than Lylat. Horizontal combos can be extended dangerously close to the blast zone. The platform promotes running away and charging up a storable attack. Even approaching someone on the platform can be dangerous due to shield -> grab -> throw next to the blastzone. Just the other day I was playing as Robin and got an early platform-assisted backthrow kill.... at 30%.

Town and City: Not much to add here. Each transition takes a set amount of time so you can time out the stage layouts.

Dreamland: Whispy is a jerk. I break a shield at the ledge, he pushes them off into auto-recovery. I get a grab at the ledge and pummel until release only to be blown off, have a pummel turn into a buffered n-air, and then not making it back to the ledge to close out the set. I use Link's up+b at the edge it blows me off to special-fall doom. Just.... Whispy is a jerk.

I'll get to the rest of the stages in a later post. Should I reformat this to a pro/con format like the first post or is this alright?

-PoptartLord

EDIT: Fixed a color
 
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ぱみゅ

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That's why I did not group the stages by "fairness", instead I grouped them by "reception".
Your format seems fine.
:196:
 
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PoptartLord

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Yellow Stages:
Omega: So far the main reason I've seen people pick these in tournaments is for the change in visuals or (especially) music. But for the actual differences - Onett and the like have walls that go straight down all the way to the blastzone. This aids those with a wall cling, wall jump, and Corrin (side-b into the wall as a recovery mixup) in that order. Smashville and the like have nothing underneath the platform so it's easier for characters to go underneath and pop out on the other side.
Okay, there's one other use for the walls, which I also use for choosing between BF and DL. The walls prevents tether recoveries from swinging back into the stage / behind the ledge, so when I use Link I can drop off and d-air for easy damage/kills. Or throw a bomb down there. Actually, this works against players that up+b slide into the edge as well.
There was a period of time at my locals where FD was a starter and Omega Onett was a counterpick, with one ban. I couldn't prevent being counterpicked to a non-platform stage, and I hated that. Every time I banned FD they would take me to Onett just to spite me. Okay not really out of spite, but it still happened. Anyway, that's the same situation that people that hate the staggered tri-platform layout are in (BF/DL). To go further into this would be breaking into a rule change discussion, so I'm ending it here.

Miiverse: When the system is not connected to the internet this stage is basically Battlefield that is easier to traverse the underside of. With the internet on this stage is atrocious. Is someone playing Lucas? Get ready for a flood of "Hah-hah, your mom is dead" jokes. Is nobody playing Lucas? 10% chance of the same. If by some miracle one of the messages is some nicely drawn art I feel compelled to stare at it before it disappears. I always feel bad about tuning those out.

Lylat Cruise: First off, THE TILTING IS NOT RANDOM. Just watch the background to see what's about to happen. Or have the timing memorized like the other stages.
I generally play sword characters so I like this stage since I can pressure platforms from below pretty easily, and the platforms give more landing options.
I don't have a problem with grabbing the ledges here. There's no slide (BF) or backboard (Omega Onett) so you can't just mindlessly up+b and "magnet hands" it like other stages. The few times I've missed the edge were all on me - I messed up the spacing and/or timing. Stop blaming the stage for your own shortcomings.
Oh, and this is easily the most banned (during stage striking) stage, in my experience.

Duck Hunt: Ducks!! I know this stage does something with the Z-axis, but I've never tested how that actually affects attacks and getting hit. Second off, THE DOG IS NOT RANDOM. Ducks flew away? Dog pops up in the middle. Down a duck? Dog pops up to the left or right as appropriate.
Ducks!! The ducks do interrupt projectiles and items, but that's pretty rare. The ducks also stale moves; I once heard a ZSS main say he purposely up-airs ducks to stale it so it combos better.
Ducks!! If you are playing against certain characters (Wario is the worst offender) you have to strike this stage. It is super easy to go from the treetops to the bush and back for some characters. And if you can't catch them you're screwed if you lose the percentage lead even once.
Ducks!! There are tree shenanigans to be aware of. If you get grabbed under it by Kirby, or especially Charizard, their up-throw will land at the top of the tree for early kills. Little Mac can't reach the bottom branches from the ground with just his double jump. He either has to burn his up+b or kill a duck close to the tree and use the dog as a platform. Camping on the tree becomes high risk / high reward for both players if the opponent chases you up there.
Ducks!! The side blastzones are further out than you'd think by just looking at the stage. The main stage is fairly long.

That's it for the more mundane/boring stages. I'll write up my thoughts and experiences on the rest later when it's not 2A.M. anymore.

-PoptartLord
 

SJMistery

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Duck Hunt tends to be one of my favourite stages. The ducks come in handy to un-stale the Up Throw earlier if you barely don't KO with it. It helps that the Water Shuriken has trascendent priority when fully charged, so the ducks are a non-issue for it. And, thanks to it being 2-D, Shadow Sneak is much easier to use there.
 

FamilyTeam

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I like Duck Hunt, actually. I liked it even as a Mario main, despite it not being good for him.
Then again, I liked Halberd for Mario too.
 

ぱみゅ

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I really miss Halberd, it was one of those stages where you need to be smart about who you take there, the low ceiling is a Double-edged Sword.
:196:
 

FamilyTeam

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Duck Hunt: Ducks!! I know this stage does something with the Z-axis, but I've never tested how that actually affects attacks and getting hit. Second off, THE DOG IS NOT RANDOM. Ducks flew away? Dog pops up in the middle. Down a duck? Dog pops up to the left or right as appropriate.
Ducks!! The ducks do interrupt projectiles and items, but that's pretty rare. The ducks also stale moves; I once heard a ZSS main say he purposely up-airs ducks to stale it so it combos better.
Ducks!! If you are playing against certain characters (Wario is the worst offender) you have to strike this stage. It is super easy to go from the treetops to the bush and back for some characters. And if you can't catch them you're screwed if you lose the percentage lead even once.
This reminded me to say this
The Z-axis matters a bit for a few characters, Mewtwo and Charizard most notably. So it does matter for those.
Dog being random or not isn't really the issue. It being predictable doesn't mean that it still doesn't disrupt combos, ruin landings or create/remove openings when it shouldn't.
Also, the ducks staling moves and stopping projectiles is also big. This is a horribly terrible stage for Yoshi thanks to how much the ducks get hit by his eggs. If you hit the ducks, you go through hitlag, which extends your hitboxes but also makes some things escapable. Sometimes your combo is artificially extended or halted because of the ducks. Staling is pretty bad too when some characters (See: Lucina) really get mileage out of fresh or at least not very stale moves.
 

FamilyTeam

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Assuming you're not joking:
Caves of life, weird layout, stage is destructable.
 

Crosstails20

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Ohh thank you for answering that and yes I was serious about that question.

and this one why is Kongo Jungle 64 Banned
 

FamilyTeam

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Circle Camping, and the barrel underneath sometimes disrupt or aids in recovery.
There's a really old video of Peach in Melee circle campaing against a Ganondorf, and it's painful to watch.
 

SJMistery

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ぱみゅ

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The main problem with Luigi's Mansion is that the building has a quite high HP and whenever it is destroyed, it doesn't last much before it builds up again, ultimately overriding all the effort that takes to destroy it.
If it did last more (like, WAY more) down, or had a lot less HP, it would be more bearable.


Kongo Jungle would also be a lot better if the barrel didn't grant invincibility when launching people to the stage.


I personally do not think the ceilings and walls that last about a split second are troublesome.
The circle camping however, is ridiculously easy to perform and ranges from hard to next to impossible to beat.



Honestly, a lot of stages would be great with small tweaks here and there.
:196:
 

FamilyTeam

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Circle camping was a problem with some of the Delfino Plaza transformations as well.
Though DP's problem isn't really that, it's the walkoffs. Small blastlines is hard to say if it's a plus or con (though I've gotten some stupid kills at times, as both Mario and Lucina). The uneven, techable terrain doesn't get in the way that much, but it does happen sometimes. Also some transformations are kind of annoying.
 

SJMistery

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If the circle camping happens sometimes, it shouldn't be a problem, and if I am not mistaken, it isn't. All you need to do to beat such a lame strategy is wait until it cannot be done anymore.

I have never understood the problem with walk-offs. As long as you keep an eye to not get comboed near the edges, you're safe. The only stage where fighting near the edges is unavoidable is the Suzaku Castle due to lacking a central platform big enough to stand confortably.
 

FamilyTeam

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Circle camping is a really big problem, though. Kongo Jungle was legal for ages in Melee before people saw this was a big issue and should be avoided. That match only helps.
Being forced to approach comically unsafely while the other person can slap you and run away consequence-free because their character is floaty and/or has good airspeed is not alright.

Also, that's not the only problem with walkoffs. There is no lower blastline where there are walkoffs, which means no spiking, and it overcentralizes any kind of horizontal finisher. This means that Sheik can just carry you offstage and KO you no problem, and some people can camp the blastline to get a easy 0% KO. People already moan and complain that Smashville is bull**** when you get Back Thrown off the platform and die at 30%, imagine if we legalized stages where that is almost the norm and you can die earlier.
Even if you kill the person camping the blastline, you also just KO'd them at 0% for free, really it's not fair for either.
 

SJMistery

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Well, it would be a delicious game of chicken, in any case. About the 0% deaths and elimination of spikes and edgeguarding, that's why I mentioned to only have them legal with a 2-0 disadvantage on a best of 5. A "super counterpick" I called them.
 

SaltyKracka

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...Ye gods, no.

Walkoffs are, always have been, and always will be cancer. They reduce stocks down to a single interaction and decision, and very disproportionately advantage characters with projectiles, speed, and good grabs.

They remove all the actual game from the game.
 

QualityQ

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The whole "well it's distracting and causes motion sickness" argument is funny to me. Again, FD is legal despite a similar flaw, yet UCT is not? Also, this is a subjective argument. I personally can play on either stage without any problems, so this argument is invalid. The problem here is that if the argument "distracting" is going to be taken into account, it needs to be done so for all stages not just one.
To be fair, FD has a big flash (bad) and brief sphere movement (very minor). UCT has many more distractions in the background, going in and out, moving much faster. UCT is much worse for motion sickness than FD.

An objective argument is: Is FD's benefit (Flat stage, traditional, popular) better than the cost (brief flash)? People seem to agree that is a yes.

Is UCT's benefit (interesting platforms, although some weird angles and camp-favoring arrangements) better than the cost (lots of background motion)? That can be debated.

Miiverse: With the internet on this stage is atrocious. Is someone playing Lucas? Get ready for a flood of "Hah-hah, your mom is dead" jokes. Is nobody playing Lucas? 10% chance of the same.
Repeating this, since it's not listed as a negative but can be very, very bad. Especially if twitch is involved. All it takes is one person forgets to disconnect and one awful post on stream.
 

punkonjunk

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I still see no reason to keep Battlefield over Miiverse as no one in their right minds would use the 3DS on Wii U. The GamePad is a better controller and comes with the console, so there is basically no reason to allow them in tournament. Duck Hunt's abnormal elements are predictable and thus not that bad. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to axe Lylat, but only if we replaced it with something else. If we chose to use Omegas, we should use Omega PacLand because it's the most different from the others in that it's both 2D and the sides extend down to the blast zone. I still think we should create a custom stage that is identical to Smashvile without the balloon.
Hey, you know this makes perfect sense, until you imagine two people who want to use the gamepad at a tourney. Then that doesn't work at all. I imagine this has a lot to do with why you don't see a lot of gamepad users. You don't see many 3ds users, either.


To me, it makes sense that miiverse=battlefield if players agree, and a ban on FD bans omegas. as a corrin player, walls to the bottom are amazing, and I'd love an option other than duckhunt for this.
There aren't any stages I don't like besides dreamland, but having two+ FDs means you can't ever ban FD, which I can absolutely see being unfair and problematic.

I'm honestly confused how umbra got struck and DH has managed to stay. I love duckhunt, and umbra does make me feel sick, but it's a pretty good stage. Duckhunt, on the other hand, has interrupting ducks, the goddamn dog, etc. Those walls though, and the tree, man do I love duckhunt. (Despite motion sickness, I do think umbra should be legal, when you consider other legal stages)
I think umbra should be legal, hands down. I'm very confused why it isn't, and it seems like it's non-acceptance in bigger scenes just trickled down and stuck, quickly.


By the way, sorry but I can't keep a straight face looking at some cons. "Distractng sounds and lights" in particular... Has people forgotten that the "mute" and "reduce contrast" buttons exist on every single TV's remote control?
While your point is sound, this is difficult to do between every match if that match is chosen, especially if turn down brightness/contrast. This is less practical with FD especially, as the brightness changes.
Why the hell wasn't omega FD non-crazy BG? I don't have a problem with the stage, and it's never cost me a match, but it is obnoxious on some displays.


I may not be the best weigh-in here, as I also hugely enjoy playing on awful, hazardous stages, (And I just got into competitive smash 4 six months ago) but I would love to see the legal list expand, if only to set the precedent that it can. Depending on how smash-switch plays out, I'd hate to see us pared down to FD and battlefield.
If there was one thing I'd like to see in smash switch, it's remapable individual inputs. I want uptilt on a single button. If there were two things, though, I'd want alpha stages - omega=FD, alpha=no hazards, maybe no hazards and no walkoffs. Although, as has been said throughout the thread, I find the completely changed meta around walkoffs to be much more interesting without the threat of chaingrabs, although I do see the argument, especially with 2 stocks, that it becomes extremely fast and dangerous. I'd still like to see that explored competatively and banned in this game for a reason other than "it sucked in other games" (although that may have already occurred with castle siege, but that wasn't it's only problem.

Also, I really, REALLY wish we could have mushroom kingdom U without any transformations - just first layout. Goddamn do I love that.
 

PoptartLord

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Sorry for the delay. Time to knock out a few more of these. Also, while I do have the 3DS version I haven't used it enough to really comment on its non-shared stages.

Amber Stages:
Castle Siege: The elevation shift in the first transformation is interesting. While slight, it's enough to allow some non-short characters on the lower side to duck under certain projectiles fired from the higher side. I had to stand in just the right spot for this, but I've fired Link's bow to hit a shielding opponent's feet for a shield-poke (I was lower in elevation).
The transition is pretty easy to understand. A few seconds before it happens the screen will shake and you'll hear a rumbling sound. Afterwords the entire stage will compress to a flat plane (think Bridge of Eldin). This means that the platforms will fall and, more importantly, the bottom will rise and solidify. This leads to potential edge cases where you can be falling offstage one moment and be standing on solid ground, and rising, the next. So if the stage is rumbling and you can't make it back to the ledge, stall your descent and you may just live. On the other side of this, I have timed an Elthunder to hit an opponent on the rising ground for the kill. Stage knowledge!! Anyway, after being compressed for a few seconds the stage will decompress to the next transformation. The middle point will not change, so use that for a frame of reference. Fail to do so and you'll find yourself offstage. This is, however, a great time to control the space that will be the new ledge and force your opponent to wind up offstage.
The second transformation has a few points of interest. The first is the walkoffs. Those are bad, and people will camp. Fortunately there are platforms on both sides you can use to stand on and hide from potential projectile spam. Then there are the statues. They will absorb projectiles and extend attack animations, meaning they can be used both offensively and defensively. Until they break apart, at least.
The third transformation is fairly simple. It's flat, and it tilts. Just keep that in mind when you're recovering.
And since this is in the "in contention" list, I'll add that I would be fine with this stage being legal.

Delfino Plaza: So bright and cheerful. My favorite thing to do here is to knock someone into the water and then spike them down to the blastzone. Which is harder than it sounds - you won't do it at low percents. Even if they survive you can keep them submerged long enough to be left behind during a transition. There's a lot of leeway with the timing so again, this is harder to pull off than it sounds.
While floating, the bottom platform (or main stage, whatever you want to call it) is not solid. This means you can attack from below or even recover through the middle of it. This makes for some interesting options.
Some of the transformations (destinations?) do have walkoffs, and that's bad. At least when the floating platforms come back the camper will be in a bad position. Also, that one destination on the rooftops with a gap on both sides? There's no grabbable ledge there, making it very dangerous.
Once again, I'd be fine with this stage being legal.

Halberd: There's not much more to say here than what's already in the first post. Whenever you're not docked the bottom of the stage isn't solid. The claw hazard actively goes after a single character, which is bad.
I'm indifferent as to whether this stage is legal or not.

Wuhu Island: This is an interesting stage with nine (I believe) destinations. So you might have to change up your gameplay, meaning adaptability is a stronger player skill here. It's hard to say this stage is too bad because everything is so temporary. The stage is big, so it's possible to survive past where certain death combos are true (or 50/50). There used to be a glitch here involving the boat, but that was patched out in... 1.0.6?... and I haven't heard of it since.
I'm partial to this stage being legal.

Pokemon Stadium 2: Yes, you have to unlock this stage. No, this is not an issue. After you do the events to unlock Smashville you only need to do two more, both of which are the easy "kill everything on stage" types. I've done this for about a dozen setups at my local venue and it takes about / under five minutes.
The main stage is great. It's unique by being flat with two platforms. All matches start here and all transitions return here. There's a large monitor in the background that says how the stage will transform, giving you plenty of heads-up.
The ground transformation is nice. It's got a ramp, some platforms... nothing objectionable here. The ice transformation just takes a little getting used to. The air transformation is nowhere near as bad as people say it is. I find the midair interactions to be quite thrilling. Also, the wind applies to the whole map, even offstage. The electric transformation is possibly the most interesting one. The treadmills at the ledge push you offstage, changing how recoveries and ledgeguarding work. Either combatants are locked into the tight space between treadmills or they spend their time fighting offstage.
This is another stage where adaptability is key, and as such I would like to see this stage being legal as well.

Umbra Clock Tower: Wow, what a stage. So many pretty colors! It's big, but not too big *cough* *Palutena's Temple* *cough*. There are platforms and rocks entering and leaving the stage, keeping things fresh. While they do create camping spots, they are very temporary and leave the camper offstage. There is one moving cave of life but that's the thing - it's moving. Temporary. And its shape only covers vertically, not on the sides. Yes you can be blown horizontally into it but for the most part it will inhibit vertical, grounded kill shots.
Let's move on to the background. It's busy, but at no point does anything move into the foreground. At one point the, uh.... dragon thing? (I really need to get around to playing those games)... roars and the screen shakes slightly. Neither of those things are an issue at all. I have not once lost track of either myself or my opponent because of the "distracting background" or "violent screen shaking". Those are excuses.
I'll also bring up the motion sickness issue that some people are claiming it induces. What motion are you talking about? If it's the roar shaking, that lasts a second or two. Is it the background characters? I've played arcade-style shoot-em-ups with more stuff going on, and I had to avoid said stuff on top of that. Is it this camera zoom thing I've heard of? The camera does that several times, every match, every stage. Get hit with a strong attack and the camera zooms out to show both characters simultaneously. If that leads to a blastzone kill the camera then quickly zooms in to the one character, then quickly out to also show the newly respawned character. I fail to see how this stage is any different. If a stage bothers you for these subjective reasons, use the stage striking process to prevent ever going there. I'm heavily opposed to FD (and by extension omegas) so I strike it. Problem solved.
This stage - legal? Sounds good to me!

Red Stages:
Mushroom Kingdom U: This stage is fun. There's a big water drop before the icicles come down, so those are easily avoidable. Nabbit can be attacked or thrown into the opponent to pressure them, or outright killed if you don't like him. The transformations are pretty varied. I'd have it legal. I have had several tournament matches on this stage and they turned out fine.

Mario Circuit: This is the moving one. Aside from all the different layouts, which I always enjoy, I have a signature tactic of throwing / hitting people into the side walls and following up with more attacks into the wall. I don't get why people are always so surprised - it's like they've never played on a stage with a wall before. The shy-guy racers are slow and easy to avoid, but if you're quick-witted enough you can send your opponent into them. Add this to the "I'd have it legal" column. I have had several tournament matches on this stage and they turned out fine.

Kongo Jungle 64: I'll keep this simple - there's too much circle camping potential here. Otherwise this would be a great stage. It could maybe work in doubles though. I have no choice but to agree with the coloring and say "not legal".

Skyloft: Another moving stage. Any issues with specific destinations can be countered by how the transition in question will end soon, often leaving the camper in a bad position. There is one issue, though. Sometimes the platform will fly by the island geometry in such a way that it can hit players. I've only seen these island hitboxes in the far corners of the playable area, and they're only active for a split second. I would have this stage legal but would keep an eye on it. I have had a couple of tournament matches on this stage and they turned out fine.

Norfair: Let's start with the platforms. There's four, they make a unique V shape with the main stage, and they have grabbable edges on both sides. This opens up a ton of options.
Then there's the lava that goes from the background to foreground. It spawns a safety pod which forces interactions, which is good. Or you could just shield or counter it. You can either attack your opponent as they try to get to the pod or make it so they get hit by the lava, or both!
The side lava is basically a wall that does damage. Hit the opponent into it, get a follow-up, the usual.
Lastly there's the lava streaks. They linger a bit so be careful.
I think this stage is amazing and I would so have it legal. I have had several tournament matches on this stage and they turned out fine.

Kalos Pokemon League: This is a simple matter of knowing what's going on and using it to your advantage. The worst part is the steel pool that gives whoever steps in it the metal box power-up. A crazy amount of damage can be piled on quickly, and whomever it wears off on first is at a severe disadvantage. The swords and platforms can kill you off the top when disappearing upwards.
I'm on the fence on this one. I don't want to condemn it, but I can see why people would be against it. The tournament matches I've played there have been mostly fine, it's just the steel pool hijinks... I guess I'll have to agree with the red and keep it not legal.

Windy Hill Zone: I don't actually play on this stage that often, so... no comment.

Peach's Castle 64: I love this stage! It has such a unique layout. A big difference between this and the N64 version is that the moving platform has a grabable edge now. I've heard complaints about the sky wedges but they're unfounded. They are small targets to hit horizontally. Most of the time you'll hit the bottom, and if you don't tech you bounce off towards the bottom blastzone. Which is the opposite of the "mini cave of life" complaints I've heard.
And then there's the bumper. THE BUMPER IS NOT RANDOM. It's not that difficult to track such a slow moving thing offscreen. On several occasions I have successfully DI'd into it to avoid juggles while it was offscreen.
This stage should totally be legal. I have had several tournament matches on this stage and they have turned out fine.

Super Mario Maker: Random layouts but nothing extreme. Adaptability is key here. I haven't had too many tournament matches here but they turned out fine. I'm in favor of legalizing this stage.

Pirate Ship: I haven't played on this stage too often, but I can see why people have issues with it. No (further) comment.

I'll do the last batch another day.

-PoptartLord
 

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I'm honestly confused how umbra got struck and DH has managed to stay. I love duckhunt, and umbra does make me feel sick, but it's a pretty good stage. Duckhunt, on the other hand, has interrupting ducks, the goddamn dog, etc. Those walls though, and the tree, man do I love duckhunt. (Despite motion sickness, I do think umbra should be legal, when you consider other legal stages)
I think umbra should be legal, hands down. I'm very confused why it isn't, and it seems like it's non-acceptance in bigger scenes just trickled down and stuck, quickly.
Because it was new, and people do not like to learn new things.

Umbra is a good stage where the most viable strategy against transformations you do not like is to wait ~10 seconds
:196:
 

paperchao

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Pirate Ship: I haven't played on this stage too often, but I can see why people have issues with it. No (further) comment.



-PoptartLord
I think I can explain this stage a bit
-quirks: this stage is pretty interesting as it's the only stage with water for 90 percent of the time covering the bottom, it also features two slopes on each side of the boat, meaning you can slide during endlag of an aerial to make it harder to punish you (on a side note, canceling raptor boost and upper dash arm makes you slide decently far on the slopes).
-platforms and water: the two platforms make it very easy to combo someone to the roof of the stage, making it great for vertical combo characters. The water also assists characters with exploitable recoveries, since they don't have to worry about getting knocked too far to recover(the edgeguarder can still attack them while they're in the water, however).
-transformations: the boat can hit a rock and remains there for a while, the rock is very close to the blastzone, but the boat can offer a wall for teching off of and wall jump tricks. The boat can also get caught in a tornado, flinging it into the air briefly, the descent lowers gravity(think ps2 air) but it only lasts for a short time before landing. Finally, the king of red lions can appear behind the boat and can act as another platforms, he also sticks close to the blastzone.
-hazards: the boat sometimes raises a catapult onto the deck, which will fling a fighter off the boat and into the water, only deals 1 damage. Sometimes a watchtower will appear in the background and start firing canons at the boat, they are not lethal but deal major damage(something like 35 percent per canon), I don't think the canons can get you on the second platform however. Touching the boat in the front while it's moving will kill you, this can be avoided by jumping out of the water. It's also possible to get under the boat without dieing and camp under it, however this breaks is against the rules as it's a form of stalling.
Final thoughts: this stage is very strange and may be pushing it in terms of legality. While it offers cool stuff like permanent water and slopes to slide down, I'm leaning towards ban because of the absurd damage the canons do to you.
 
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Floor

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I still see no reason to keep Battlefield over Miiverse as no one in their right minds would use the 3DS on Wii U. The GamePad is a better controller and comes with the console, so there is basically no reason to allow them in tournament.
Okay now plenty of people use 3ds. It doesn't come down to wether or not you believe the gamepad is a better control, it comes down to some people not having access to a wii U and praticing every day on Smash 3ds and taking it to a tournament. Plenty of people do that; me and my friend used to and two other friends of mine still do. I see no reason to keep Miiverse over battlefield. If you make Miiverse legal, then your allienating plenty of people and forcing them to either drop competetive smash or force them to spend $250+ on a dying console (Switch hype also makes buying a Wii U at this point a not-good idea).

We can say that Wii Remote and nunchuck is an inferior control setup, but are we really going to go down that road where we're attacking players for their control setups?
 

SJMistery

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Come on, Battlefield tends to be banned for being epically favorable to combo-heavy caracthers just as FD tends to get banned for favoring camping and long-range figthing caracthers. It does not really matter if BF or Miiverse is favored, both essentially become counterpick-only fields.

By the way, I wonder what you think about "pseudo-alpha stages". You know, Rainbow Road, Reset Bomb Forest, Pyrosphere, etc after applying SmashCentral's hazard removal trick? I would like to see RR at least as a counterpick with this trick in effect. It's really quick when you know how to do it.
 
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PoptartLord

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Allright, time for the last bunch.

Blacklisted Stages:
Big Battlefield: Platforms! There's a lot of movement options here. You'll be spending a lot of time on platforms so pressing down is a potential escape option more often. The layout is good for vertical combos. However, it's just a bit too easy to circle camp on this stage (variable circling paths), so I'm afraid it should stay not legal.

Mario Galaxy: Such a boring stage. It has two platforms at awkward heights. There are permanent walk-offs, which are bad. The only interesting thing about this stage is the gravity curve; too bad it's not the fun type of interesting. Sticking with "not legal" here.

Mario Circuit Brawl: It has its good and bad points. The shy guy karts are slow and telegraphed in both directions, so I see nothing unfair about them. The platform is... semi-interesting. I think it would work better on a bigger stage. Speaking of which, this stage is tiny! With permanent walk-offs. That's such a bad combination. Bye-bye legality.

Jungle HIjinks: Now this is an interesting stage. The layout, both parts, are unique. And the whole "battle in the foreground and background simultaneously" angle is rather amusing. But therein lies its downfall - it is too easy to force no interaction with no risk. All you have to do is be on the other area as your opponent waiting by a barrel. As soon as they go into a barrel to chase you, you do the same to avoid them. The transition time is significant, making this effortless to pull off. Sure there's times when one side is just barrels and no land, but stalling is still really easy even then. Banned!

Luigi's Mansion: I don't get all the hate this stage gets. Sure there are two solid platform "caves of life", but the way the stage is laid out their tops form a secondary fighting ground. And if you don't like them, you can even destroy them! Oh and there's even a third fighting ground with the roof for variety.
The mansion won't reform if even a single piece of the mansion is left unbroken. This means that you can keep the battleground cut in half vertically, horizontally, or shrink it down to a quarter, all to suit your playstyle or tip the matchup in your favor.
Quick story - Ganondorf's f-tilt is lethal here. It sends you at the perfect angle to avoid the solid platforms, so teching cannot save you.
I can't remember if I've played tournament matches here or not, but I'd be willing to try it.

Bridge of Eldin: Such a meh stage. It's flat all the way through to the blastzone on both sides, meaning permanent walk-offs (bad!). The only interesting thing that happens is that a piece of it blows up, leaving a hole. The hole is a bit too wide - some characters have such bad recoveries that it's too much of a risk to cross it, so the battle can come to a standstill at times.
Quick story - I have thrown people into the bridge-destroying bomb for incredibly early kills.
Another quick story - I have been trapped underneath the reappearing bridge piece, leading to a quick demise.
Legality: no.

Temple: Yeesh, where to start... mostly circular cave of live, too large, circle camping... just, no.

Pyrosphere: I really like the stage design. Since the platforms are so close to the edge there are more options than usual for recovering. If only Ridley wasn't there I'd be all for this stage being legal. That being said, Ridley is there. Boss monsters are an automatic "not-legal" from me.

Port Town Aero Dive: I really like 90% of this stage. I like that it has transitions, I like the transitions, and I even like how the floor hurts (you're moving at supersonic speeds after all). At times the track is so close to the main stage that you have to choose between recovering earlier/higher or taking the hit.
The only bad thing about this stage is the cars. They come at you unreactably fast and kill early. They ruin an otherwise legal stage.

Wooly World: Too much circle camping, and walk-offs for long stretches of time. Sorry, Wooly World.

Yoshi's Island Melee: Um, what? How is this stage so poorly received it made it into this list? This stage is amazing. There are so many tactical things to do with the blocks. Sure you can tech off of them to prevent dying, but after that the blocks go inactive so you still have to avoid follow-ups. Hitting the ones on the ground affect approach options and are a good way to counter against things like MK's dash attack -> up-air -> death or Fox's dash attack -> death or even Bayonetta's side-b -> stuff -> death. This cuts both ways, meaning that you'll have to approach differently as well.
I bet people will complain about the walk-off. Unlike every other walk-off, this one is slanted upwards. How is that important? For one, tethers and projectiles will not follow the curve and thus go right over the head of anyone approaching. I think the only two exceptions are a grounded Blade Beam (Cloud) or the projectile part of Final Cutter (Kirby). If someone tries to camp in shield on the incline, pepper them with retreating aerials. Due to the height difference this is easier for the attacker to do.
You will have to watch out for attacks that slide along the ground, those will follow inclines (Ike's side-b, etc.).
Here's something you probably don't know - if someone is sitting in shield on top of the blocks and you hit the one they're standing on, they will be forced to drop shield as they'll be in mid-air. I use this to get tipper up-airs all the time.
I have had several tournament matches on this stage and they've been fine. Legal!

The Great Cave Offensive: See Temple, but worse.

Orbital Gate Assault: I have no problems with maneuvering around this stage. After three times being there I had all the events timed out. Every time I say "3...2...1...Boom!" to correspond with the exploding shields people look at me funny. It's sad. Just... learn the timing, know when you're going to be airborne, and figure out what the best aerial to hit your opponent with is. It is very easy to not die to the stage with the tiniest bit of effort. Legalize it.

Onett: Permanent walk-offs, bad! And I don't like how the vehicles have transitioned. They used to be a threat, now they're a joke. Gone are the days when I can grab and pummel to stall for a car kill. I miss that. *sniff*

Gamer: Ok. So. This stage. This reception level. How? No. No! This is possibly my most favorite stage in the game. First, you have the semi-random layouts. That means you have to adapt to the layout, which I like. And none of the pieces are excessive. People like to complain about the wooden block, but it's not bad. It's only ever on the left end, so even if they tech a few times just hit/throw left for a kill. It's not like it's on the middle of the stage where they could survive a hit in either (horizontal) direction.
And then there's Mom. She's amazing. Her mere presence multiplies the pressure you put on your opponent, so the player with the cooler head comes out on top. She shows up in so many different ways that you have to have situational awareness (in case you couldn't tell by now, I value a lot of different traits in players). Some of her appearances are pretty funny. The best one, though, starts off with ominous music. She'll then walk the length of the stage, then back, then... well, a couple of things.... basically she acts like a survival-horror monster.
Did you know that Mom will break a full shield? Most likely. Did you know that you could counter Mom's gaze attack? Probably not. Did you know that said counter-attack can kill at 30%? Very doubtful. It's nearly impossible to land but yes, it is a thing.
This stage should be legalized. I wouldn't mind if it was the only legal stage. I have played a lot of tournament matches here and they were amazing.

Pilotwings: Did you know that the two bottom things of the yellow plane have edges that can't be grabbed? I didn't, until I tried to recover to them. Whoops! Anyway, the tilting makes this stage hell for Robin. A less specific observation is that the solid wall cockpit makes a nice little hidey-hole that's really hard/annoying to approach from some angles, and leads to semicircle-camping for the other angles.
The cons outweigh the pros here, but it's close. Keep it not legal.

Coliseum: Permanent walk-offs, so... banned! Although if the shifting stage thing was done on the omega form's base instead this would make for a great stage.

Flat Zone X: Ugh, so many things wrong here... There are permanent walk-offs, so it's out already. Then there's the plethora of stage hazards, which by sheer number would disqualify the stage. Which is made worse by how some hazards basically teleport, meaning they're unreactable, meaning yet another disqualification. And what multiplies everything above is how small the stage is.

Palutena's Temple: Way too big. See Temple, but larger.

Skyworld: I'm surprised this isn't in the red list instead. Sure, the stage is basically a giant cave of life, but you can destroy the walls. Or your recovery move can destroy the floor you were going to grab onto. Or the floor can respawn as you were recovering through the hole. ...look, I never said I'd have it legal, just that I was surprised how poorly it was received.

Garden of Hope: Another stage I really like on this list. You can get some nice follow-ups from the stick, but since it's so short it's harder to kill with than real walls. Hitting someone into the crab (has a telegraphed appearance) is always entertaining.
There's only one real roadblock to this being legal, and that's the scales. You can stall indefinitely there, and if you keep it at the blastzone there are many characters that cannot make it back to the main stage, meaning it's suicide to even try to reach you. This can be solved with a simple "no scale stalling" rule. It's not like there haven't been anti-stalling rules in previous games.
Legalize it! With the anti-stalling rule.

Wii Fit Studio: Permanent walk-offs, bad. Otherwise the platforms could've made it a decent stage.

Boxing Ring: Permanent walk-offs, bad. Bouncing on the rope is fun, at least.

Gaur Plain: A combination of too big and a boss monster. Tsk tsk.

75M: It looked really fun at first, but the lack of a long segment of solid ground is really disruptive. Most of the time it devolves into a series of aerial potshots. Also, Donkey Kong and the springs hit way too hard. The flames are alright though. Then there's too much circle camping potential. Sorry 75M, you're out.
The ladders are magic. You can cancel anything with them.

Wrecking Crew: Seriously? This is one of the more unique stages in the game. Despite the several layers of platforms most of the fighting takes place near/at the bottom. At worst, the bombs are just temporary projectile blockers. Getting caught in the barrels never happens. I assume the ladders are also magic. I see no reason not to legalize this stage.

Willy's Castle: Curse you, Yellow Devil!! If it weren't for you this stage would be legal. Having moving platforms outside the main fighting area is a unique gimmick. Plus, MegaMan stage!

Suzaku Castle: Permanent walk-off, bad. The side without it isn't fun to fight on, either. Too much air.

PAC-LAND: Of all the things that could be said about this stage, this is what really gets me - you cannot grab any ledges. Given how platformer-y some segments are this is unacceptable. Not legal.

Hyrule Castle 64: This was a great stage in 64, and it's a great stage now. Deal with the tower like you would the Duck Hunt tree. The whirlwind is slow and easily avoidable. I see no reason not to have this stage legal.

Midgar: It's Battlefield with particle effects. Leviathan affects both players equally. Same with Odin (just avoid the super telegraphed, super thin attack, that I've never once seen anyone be hit with). Bahamut Zero is telegraphed with several seconds of warning, making it very easy to avoid. Ramuh changes the platform layout while only one of them is electrocuted at a time. Ifrit is the most disruptive, and even then... meh. I see no reason not to have this stage legal.

Ugh, why did I think it would be a good idea to do this? These posts took forever. I'm going back to one-liners.

-PoptartLord
 

Locke 06

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@ぱみゅ - what's the reasoning against 2 bans, 7 stages, no DSR? I forget.

I feel like this was talked about a long time ago, but I don't remember.
 
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ぱみゅ

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I am... not sure? it's been a standard in many places, including mine, so, it baffles me how it can't just become THE standard.
I mean, I didn't even know it wasn't until recently.
:196:
 
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QrowinSP

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I am... not sure? it's been a standard in many places, including mine, so, it baffles me how it can't just become THE standard.
I mean, I didn't even know it wasn't until recently.
:196:
As I understand, the main rationale between getting rid of 7 stages is that a lot of people feel Lylat isn't fit for competitive.

There's the tilting, which can be learned so I don't feel it's too big of a deal, and then there's something about falling through it. I personally have never seen it happen, but I think a lot of people are excited to get rid of a stage that shakes things up too much.

Of course, that's just my opinion on its legality. Regardless, the main rationale for going down to 6 is because some people don't like the 7th.
 

paperchao

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https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697

So tantalus posted a revised ruleset for xanadu, and at the end he told people to suggest their favorite cp stage not on the stage list (stuff like umbra, castle, even ps2 got mentioned). Which ones would have the best chance of maybe being legal? This also excludes Lylat and duck hunt returning btw, tantalus will probably make a change on their legality at a later date.
 

SJMistery

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Come on, not even Duck Hunt and Lylats? Those have been staple counterpicks until now. What is wrong with xanadu this year?
I wish I could vote for ALL counterpick stages returning, the more stag, the better, all you need is allow players to ban up to 2 when counterpicked.. I guess I'll go with UCT
 
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PoptartLord

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*sigh* More perfectly fine stages bite the dust. All this is doing is dumbing down the game. Soon it'll be so bad that there will only be 3 legal stages. Who the <censored> wants that? That will make things boring for players and spectators.

Look, all stages will have edge cases where characters can fall through the geometry. Once, and only once, I was playing on Orbital Gate Assault when this happened. You know how the stage starts off, where it's just the Great Fox? I was playing as Olimar and was landing where the top fin meets the main body and I fell right through the stage (don't worry, I landed on the main guns). I wasn't just footstooled, spiked, attacking as I landed, or anything. I've tried to replicate it since and have failed every time. The engine isn't perfect; deal with it. As long as you can't reliably force the opponent through geometry there's no reason to single a stage out for this.

A pox on those that want to get rid of Lylat Cruise! I counterpick it whenever I notice the player is lazy with recovering. By this I mean that they will aim their recovery into the slant (or wall) and slide along it to grab the ledge. If you try this on Lylat you will ram yourself into the underside of the stage and fall to your doom. This is not the fault of the stage but rather the weakness of the player.

-PoptartLord
 

Zerp

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So, dumb question about Umbra Clock Tower, with Smash 4's current level of mods, would it be possible to simply mod away the background and constant shaking effects so we can use this stage without forcing those of us that get sick from the stage to waste their bans?
 

QrowinSP

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I'd say that Umbra Clock Tower and Castle Siege are the best ones on that list. It was sad to not see Delfino/Wuhu, but I suppose I understand why they aren't on the top of the list. Don't get why they're not there but PS2 is.

One thing in that thing that kind of bothered me was when they said they went with such a small stage list and an even smaller starter list to minimize the amount of stupid stuff that can happen in a match. I think my biggest problem with the competitive Smash 4 community is how much higher they value the 'competitive integrity' of the game over making it a legitimately entertaining spectator sport. It's one of the reasons I don't watch it very much anymore.
 

Manabu

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I don't understand how people can get deconcentrate on Umbra Clock Tower, dude you're paying attention to the opponent and thinking about what you will do
Fighting games like MvC has a lot of details on his stage backgrounds and i don't see people getting deconcentrate
 

SJMistery

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People, why Rainbow Road is banned in 3ds Doubles? When playing with 4 players (required for doubles), the Shy Guys are absent... Even on Singles it could be easy to arrange it so the Shy Guys get out, either via double Jigglypuff referee, or with two level 1 CPUs loaded with self-damaging equipement to ease their destruction.
 
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