Stage .H.A.C.K.ing Central

[Eternal Yoshi]

http://www.mediafire.com/?tblkj7dljaatool
Can you people help me?

Can someone get this model to not freeze the game? I don't need the animations.

 

[hotdogturtle]

There are no negative effects of replacing textures with smaller ones, right? Like replacing a 64x64 with a 2x2 to reduce the overall file size.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I have no filesize issues on account of an Aerodactyl mdl0 from the dragon champion stage working when I add it.

Oh. Misread your post. I think it depends on the model.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Um, oops, I was actually asking that for my own help. I haven't done anything with your model, sorry.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Oh. Misread your post. I think it depends on the model.
IIrc, on certain models, it affects more than just texture quality.

 

[libertyernie]

Aw. All walkoffs. :/

I wish they weren't, but what else are you gonna do? It's not like WSR has lots of random floating platforms.

 

[Evilagram]

I wish they weren't, but what else are you gonna do? It's not like WSR has lots of random floating platforms.

Most games are like that. Brawl stage design is really different from every other game. Frankly, we don't have a very good concept of how to design brawl stages other than battlefield clones or final destination clones with slightly varied positioning of their platforms.

I mean, look at most of the additions to the Project M stage roster. And the level freezes too. We suddenly have a LOT more battlefield and final destination clones.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing and they need to leave, but maybe we should have a look at the good stages that are not battlefield clones and try working from them a bit more?

 

[Mewtwo_2000]

Peach's Castle on the roof video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlIvfoUfMOU

 

[Olimario1892]

I'm not saying this is a bad thing and they need to leave, but maybe we should have a look at the good stages that are not battlefield clones and try working from them a bit more?

Which is why I make stages like these:

I'll be gone for a week so here's a preview of my progress so far.

And awesome work by the way Mewtwo.

 

[Segtendo]

I'm still anxious for that Wii stage :3

 

[KTH]

Great Bay.

 

[Evilagram]

Yeah, I can't wait for a good Great Bay. It was one of my favorite melee stages, except for the underside of the main platform.


Though to be honest, the terrain varies a little, but most of those are central platform + a few smaller platforms above, which is right in battlefield clone territory.

Some good examples of a nonstandard stage would probably be the top of the shine tower in delfino plaza, hyrule castle, the top of hyrule temple (excluding the cave, also the P:M version is a battlefield clone in my eyes), saffron city, and fourside.

 

[hotdogturtle]

most of those are central platform + a few smaller platforms above, which is right in battlefield clone territory.

Then you have a very broad interpretation of the term "Battlefield clone", and honestly, it would be hard to make a good stage that didn't fit your definition. Varying shapes, sizes, and positions of small platforms is the very basis of stage diversity in Smash.

Some good examples of a nonstandard stage would probably be the top of the shine tower in delfino plaza, hyrule castle, the top of hyrule temple (excluding the cave, also the P:M version is a battlefield clone in my eyes), saffron city, and fourside.

Incidentally, all of those stages have walls, which is something that we try to avoid in Smash for the sake of preventing infinite combos. Many people would argue against the point that you're trying to make.

 

[Evilagram]

My definition for a battlefield clone is essentially a single main platform, with ledges on both sides, that has platforms above it. The P:M skyworld fits this, while the original does not, due to the moving platform below. I also wouldn't include luigi's mansion as a battlefield clone due to the peculiarities of the stage. Frigate Orpheon is a bit outside the standard definition if you ask me, what with the platform on the side moving up and down, and the other platforms jutting in in its second form. Yoshi's story, fountain of dreams, and kirby 64 however all fit as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, these are all great stages with a lot of variation within this definition, and the reason we have so many of these is because they're some of the best stages for utilizing all the elements of smash's style of gameplay. They have standard recoveries, they have a stable place of fighting, it all works rather well.

Also true, walls are a common flaw among the stages I pointed out. I'm making the assumption that the modset played with will eliminate wall infinites where they crop up, which is probably a flawed assumption to make on my part.

Still, I have to question, can't we come up with some stages that are a bit more varied than what we have yet still viable?


Here's a quick idea, I can't guarantee it's the best, but I'm just trying to come up with alternate stage layouts. Blue is passthrough, red is a grabbable ledge.

Could someone point out any potential problems with this setup or suggest other ideas for unconventional stage layouts that are still competitively viable?

 

[Friedslick6]

The concept of grabbing a downwards reflex-angled ledge is more conventional than the concept of grapping a downwards obtuse-angled ledge. I'd swap those two angles on the right and move the passthrough platform further towards if not into the centre of the stage.

 

[Evilagram]

Sure why not? But really guys, maybe we could get just a bit more variation on these custom stages?

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, I can't wait for a good Great Bay. It was one of my favorite melee stages, except for the underside of the main platform.


Though to be honest, the terrain varies a little, but most of those are central platform + a few smaller platforms above, which is right in battlefield clone territory.

Some good examples of a nonstandard stage would probably be the top of the shine tower in delfino plaza, hyrule castle, the top of hyrule temple (excluding the cave, also the P:M version is a battlefield clone in my eyes), saffron city, and fourside.

your definition of "battlefield clone" is really bad. the only real battlefield clones are DL64 and Yoshi's Story; a mostly fat stage with 3 platforms arranged similarly to Battlefield.
Temple: M, however, is completely different. it has a slopey left side, and a slop near the middle. And two platforms of significantly different size placed on opposite sides of the stage and at different heights.
The dynamics of the stage in competitive play are so great that calling it a "Battlefield clone" is ridiculous.

 

[Evilagram]

The point isn't whether things are direct copies of battlefield, the point is that we keep doing this thing with one center platform with a few hanging above it. Look at the remade rumble falls, draculas's castle. Battlefield clone is a convenient blanket term for this type of design which is so popular across all the competitively favored stages. It makes sense to design stages like this, but still I just want to see a little more varied terrain here while not making the thing unplayable, and avoiding walkoffs/caves of life and other such pitfalls.

I'd also like to mention that I really love all the stages that are being put into Project M and you're doing a great job on them. The Rumble Falls remake is a ton of fun, as is Temple M.

Could you please not take offense at this? Can't we just discuss this peacefully?

I mean, I'm not a stage creator, I don't exactly have the capacity to fulfill what I'm asking for, to become the change I want to see, sorry about that. I just want to suggest trying out some other stage variations.

 

[Revven]

The main problem with the design you made an example of is the exact same problem that Saffron and Fourside have: lots of potential wall jump stalling between the buildings alongside wrecking some recoveries pretty terribly. Not to mention that big stages (going by how you drew it) often lead to contant chasing, although your design would not have circle camping there would still be a form of camping involved anyway. Hence why stages with building-like designs aren't well received or played on much or made.

Originality I'll agree is key to a successful stage but there really is only so much you can do with stage design in Smash. Anything you make is up for scrutiny and there's always bound to be a certain problem with it even if it looks like it would be neutral. Slopes play a big role even though they're seen as something small (see Yoshi's Island Brawl as an example). Really, you might as well be complaining to the original designers of Smash, Sakurai mainly, because that's where most people get their ideas for stage layouts from. Is it bad? No, it's just continuing what is a trend in Smash games and making stages fun for both groups of players.

Let people make what they want, if they don't want their stage to be played on competitively or don't care for that stuff then let them make it ******** as heck. If they want their stage to be competitively viable and/or fun for both groups, let them make it similar in design with how Sakurai & his team made the base Brawl/Melee/64 stages. You can't really ask the actual players of the games to be more creative than the original creators, because what's really the point in being more creative if most Smashers don't want to jump out of their safety zone in the first place? More often than not, creative stages that look cool don't exactly lend themselves to be played well on. And frankly if I was a stage designer, I would rather be making a stage that can be played well on rather than slave away on an unconventional stage that people watch in a single video and comment with "Oh that's cool! Though I wish it was smaller/didn't have X thing/wasn't a walkoff".

 

[Evilagram]

Okay, let me clarify, I want more experimentation and thought put into making stages that are fun to play on, yet aren't sticking to that same idea of a central platform with a few passthroughs over it.

Again, I'm not claiming that the conventional battlefield-esque design is bad. It's really good and it makes sense given the medium. I'm just curious if we can come up with any other ideas for good stages.

Also, you make some good points about the stage I drew up. Thanks for the insight. Again, just trying to suggest some alternate ideas.

I'm not trying to stifle people, I just want to see some alternate ideas explored. I just want to know if we can figure out an alternate idea that's still viable and fun.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

You are probably not going to get that until we can modify the stage .rels like we can PSAs. I had 2 ideas for stages for a while now, but can't do it since it requires special flags for the stage collisions, which can only be done with module editing.

Also we need more info about hitboxes and how they are stored in .rels.

 

[Evilagram]

You are probably not going to get that until we can modify the stage .rels like we can PSAs. I had 2 ideas for stages for a while now, but can't do it since it requires special flags for the stage collisions, which can only be done with module editing.

Also we need more info about hitboxes and how they are stored in .rels.

What exactly is the idea you have in mind? I'm curious.

Also, do you have any theories for alternate, yet viable, stage construction, because I've gotta admit, I can't think up anything much better or different than the standard battlefield template.

 

[MonkUnit]

I'm trying to remove the fire plumes on Norfair. Setting ALL values in the STDT to 0 did not get rid of them. I really don't want to move the stage far away to avoid the plumes. Help please.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

What exactly is the idea you have in mind? I'm curious.

One idea was to have a stage in a shattered...... world, where you fight on shattered remains that move and/or rotate.

If you don't understand, think Poke floats mixed with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKT8yZegInQ

Now you see why it requires special stage collision flag things like the windmill in PS1.

 

[Mewtwo_2000]

I'm trying to remove the fire plumes on Norfair. Setting ALL values in the STDT to 0 did not get rid of them. I really don't want to move the stage far away to avoid the plumes. Help please.

You don't need it to be far away, just moving it upwards a little is enough. It worked for my zebes, with the only issue of Iceclimber's FS being too low.

 

[MonkUnit]

If I move the stage up by 50 units and all other models up by 50 units, will the hazards; lava walls and lava floor, still function normally?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Moar pics.

I'm gonna adjust the textures to fit a nighttime sky since I altered the lightning.

 

[SonicTheHedgehog02]

1)HYPE

2) What stage doe sthat go over?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

It's over FD so I don't have to worry about file size. I may port it after I'm done depending on how big the file is.

 

[SonicTheHedgehog02]

oh, okay. i look forward to its completion

 

[Segtendo]

Hype for PokeFloats 2

 

[pikazz]

Moar pics.

*AWESOME!*
I'm gonna adjust the textures to fit a nighttime sky since I altered the lightning.

awesome, just so awesome!

will dusknoir be there somethere? 83

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Maybe. I'm making up the second half as I go along so there is a small chance Dusknoir may be a float toward the end of the loop.

I'm making 3 minutes minimum of loop content and I'm at the 2 minute mark, just so you have an idea of progress.

 

[Mewtwo_2000]

New Peach's Castle Mario 64 picture:

Those who want to fight on the roof and dislike the tower will be able to fight in this place

 

[InTrepidCognito]

Back with stuff I probably won't finish!

Outer Wall (Cave Story):

^It's only about half-finished.

More:

Balrog flies in the background.

Mr. Little comes out of his house and runs around.

And the cat ghost that shoots sperm yarn balls. (It's animated)

Also, Emergence Cave from Pikmin 2:

I'm going to use a retextured iceberg for the geyser, but I need some fat flower models for the Candypop buds. Any ideas?

 

[sinistersnakesennin]

I'm going to use a retextured iceberg for the geyser, but I need some fat flower models for the Candypop buds. Any ideas?

Lip's Stick.

 

[UltiMario]

New Peach's Castle Mario 64 picture:

Those who want to fight on the roof and dislike the tower will be able to fight in this place

Looks like someone payed attention to my YT comment! :3

 

[mariodk]

mewtwo2000 stop beeing awesome i getting hyped each time you making a Mario based stage :D

 

[InTrepidCognito]

Lip's Stick.

Tried that, but I can't seem to get the petals to move. Does anyone have any other ideas or the trophy filename for Lip's Stick?

 

[hotdogturtle]

Looks like someone payed attention to my YT comment! :3

I suggested the same thing.