Stage Builder: Ideas and Improvements

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#82
This is absurd. That respawn feature would be the easiest feature to use and is the most essential missing feature. Everyone should need to know that it exists and, as someone said before, how many people get their stages screwed because of the stupid way the actual respawn system is? Your example is wrong, but I understand the message you wanted to share.

However, there aren't any problem of having "advanced controls" and "basic controls" in the same editor. They just need to add a "advanced button" in any feature that needs it and that's all. If low-IQ people don't want to be bothered by advanced features, they'll just ignore it, and the other will be able to use those functionality without getting limited because of them.
I'm getting the impression this entire post is meant to spark a feud, given the incendiary language, but I wont let that deter me from as calm a response as possible.
No- I don't think a respawn point is really a variable necessity for each stage. I don't think Nintendo is the type of company to have both basic and advanced editing options. I don't think users have a low-IQ for not being as inherently tech saavvy.

I remember feeling overwhelmed and turned off by LittleBigPlanet 2's extremely advanced editing features compared to 1's. Smash's stage builder is still miles and miles away from ever having to worry about being too complex. It shouldn't even be a point of consideration at present.
Honestly, it isnt complex, no, but it already leaves some people out of the creation game, I guarantee it. I have to explain various aspects of technology to consumers on a regular basis. Editors (the programs, not the people), and apps overall, just bring up a wall in some people, and not always those over 40 or 50, either. It's just not everyones strong suit.
 
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SvartWolf

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#83
It'd be nice if you could throw something into another layer. I've made things and then realized they were in the wrong layer. It shouldn't be that hard to edit it into one of the other layers, instead of having to delete and do it all over again. Even if it is a small change, it'd be nice to fix it quickly.
this option is already on the game... i dont remember the button, but is explained on the editor's in game instruction manual.

Honestly- the thing about any kind of editing software, or any tech at all, is that it falls to one of two sides in a spectrum:
-Easy controls, with less to do
-Advanced controls, with more to do.

So I guess, I would want this version of stage editor to be considered a basic version, and have an option for those who wanted to learn it in depth to be able to focus on a "do everthing" mode.
Example: the respawn point from above. I cannot see a way in which everyone who creates a stage should need to know what this is, but yes, it does help to flesh out a stages abilities.

Sadly, I cannot imagine us getting two versions of a stage builder, with just a toggle to make it advanced or not.
i think you are over complicating it.

if a user doesn't want to mess with the respawns, teh respawns works like teh default ones (like right now)
 
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#84
i think you are over complicating it.
if a user doesn't want to mess with the respawns, teh respawns works like teh default ones (like right now)
I'm not overcomplicating at all.
Every additional function in the editor changes and adds to the user interface, which then makes the process more advanced. It's just the de facto of how editing and technology work.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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#85
i think you are over complicating it.

if a user doesn't want to mess with the respawns, teh respawns works like teh default ones (like right now)
I'm not overcomplicating at all.
Every additional function in the editor changes and adds to the user interface, which then makes the process more advanced. It's just the de facto of how editing and technology work.
I doubt an extra button (that works just like the others) would be a barrier of entry for most people. The problem would lie in indicating the start and respawn points. If you place them there by default or as they become applicable then first time players are left pondering what they're there for or what they do, and why they appeared without the player placing them specifically. If they just aren't placed until the player places them then the player will probably get annoyed when the editor won't let them test until they place four to eight start points and mess around with respawn points especially since they may not be ready to mess with such things yet.

Perhaps a toggle would work. Having it off would work like it does now, and the player can turn it on to see and move around the start and respawn points. It's worth considering.
 
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#86
I doubt an extra button (that works just like the others) would be a barrier of entry for most people. The problem would lie in indicating the start and respawn points. If you place them there by default or as they become applicable then first time players are left pondering what they're there for or what they do, and why they appeared without the player placing them specifically. If they just aren't placed until the player places them then the player will probably get annoyed when the editor won't let them test until they place four to eight start points and mess around with respawn points especially since they may not be ready to mess with such things yet.

Perhaps a toggle would work. Having it off would work like it does now, and the player can turn it on to see and move around the start and respawn points. It's worth considering.
One extra button? Well- we do already have, what, seven buttons?
Sure, maybe one more wont hurt.
But at some point, one mores become ten more.
Again, a toggle is the same as between advanced and basic. I brought this up initially in one of my first posts in this thread, because its the only way I can see all these new, valuable, features being added.
I just don't think Nintendo is the type of company that would have two versions, toggleable, in this way. They are more of a 'make it accessible to everyone in a one size fits all.' But hey, I could be wrong.
 

Xelrog

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#87
Honestly, it isnt complex, no, but it already leaves some people out of the creation game, I guarantee it. I have to explain various aspects of technology to consumers on a regular basis. Editors (the programs, not the people), and apps overall, just bring up a wall in some people, and not always those over 40 or 50, either. It's just not everyones strong suit.
The stage editor is not a feature used by 40- and 50-year-old technophobes.
 
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#88
The stage editor is not a feature used by 40- and 50-year-old technophobes.
Yeah... my statement was specifically that some who are less apt at technology are not always over 40.
Either way, 40 isn't that old- and Nintendo has been around in home consoles for 40 years.
Even still, as I have stated, I think Nintendo tries to make many of their games accessible to all (Sakurai specifically stating this for Smash).
 
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#89
This stage builder is fine... but it could be better.
-why can’t we just flat out have a platform tool?
-no ability to choose where you spawn absolutely annoying when trying to make any sort of cave.
-there should be way more colorful options for platforms and stuff
-what’s with there being such a small amount of objects to work with?
-they should’ve had every stage background, not just a couple.
-ability to have multiple songs registered to a level
That’s all I think needs to be fixed for now.
 

lucasla

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#90
Yeah... my statement was specifically that some who are less apt at technology are not always over 40.
Either way, 40 isn't that old- and Nintendo has been around in home consoles for 40 years.
Even still, as I have stated, I think Nintendo tries to make many of their games accessible to all (Sakurai specifically stating this for Smash).
A button to set respawn locations is not complicating anything. It has so little amount of options that it would take at least 10 more buttons to start to become complicate. The game already provides tons of customization only to create a new ruleset, people are not ********, and people that has problems in create stages shouldnt really be considered, cause they would not create anything really decent anyway, and they dont need to use what already have default settings. Considering that this would be one of the most simple features in a Stage Builder, in a console that is just about to receive a Mario Maker 2.0, it has even less reasons to not happen.
 
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#91
A button to set respawn locations is not complicating anything. It has so little amount of options that it would take at least 10 more buttons to start to become complicate. The game already provides tons of customization only to create a new ruleset, people are not ********, and people that has problems in create stages shouldnt really be considered, cause they would not create anything really decent anyway, and they dont need to use what already have default settings. Considering that this would be one of the most simple features in a Stage Builder, in a console that is just about to receive a Mario Maker 2.0, it has even less reasons to not happen.
Again, this sounds like the words of someone who has not had to explain technology or user interfaces to those who don't understand.
But thats fine. To each their own.
 
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lucasla

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#92
Again, this sounds like the words of someone who has not had to explain technology or user interfaces to those who don't understand.
But thats fine. To each their own.
You are acting like if our grandmas would be the ones interested in create stages with a stage builder. To assume that an adition of a new button would be terrible. It's almost surreal. They could add that and so many things, and people would explore the feature and create amazing things, and it would still be far from complex, or even far of the complexity of a Mario Maker or Little Big Planet (of course it doesnt need to be so complex too). Even the paint app on Windows can be more complex than what it is today. It's funny, because draw lines and squares and paint them is fine, add a video editor to mix clips is fine too, but select a place for the characters to begin is too much... for some reason in your mind because... it would need a new button and interface is complicated and the human mind cant deal with a new button... too complex..
 
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Xelrog

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#93
Again, this sounds like the words of someone who has not had to explain technology or user interfaces to those who don't understand.
You're making an argument that things can get too complex and turn away potential users. Everyone here understands that. We're telling you that the stage editor is nowhere near that level yet, and to think that adding basic features onto it will cross that threshold is an absurd argument.

We're not even remotely close to a stage of complexity that anyone who would otherwise be using the stage builder will be turned away by the additions being described. You are also far from the only person who works with those who do not understand technology. The fact that you work at Best Buy does not give you any kind of extraordinary perspective in this discussion.
 
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#94
You are acting like if our grandmas would be the ones interested in create stages with a stage builder. To assume that an adition of a new button would be terrible. It's almost surreal. They could add that and so many things, and people would explore the feature and create amazing things, and it would still be far from complex, or even near the complexity of a Mario Maker or Little Big Planet (of course it doesnt need to be so complex too). Even the paint app on Windows can be more complex than what it is today. It's funny, because draw lines and squares and paint them is fine, add a video editor to mix clips is fine too, but select a place for the characters to begin is too much... for some reason in your mind because... it would need a new button and interface is complicated and the human mind cant deal with a new button... too complex..
You're making an argument that things can get too complex and turn away potential users. Everyone here understands that. We're telling you that the stage editor is nowhere near that level yet, and to think that adding basic features onto it will cross that threshold is an absurd argument.

We're not even remotely close to a stage of complexity that anyone who would otherwise be using the stage builder will be turned away by the additions being described. You are also far from the only person who works with those who do not understand technology. The fact that you work at Best Buy does not give you any kind of extraordinary perspective in this discussion.
First person: no, as I stated prior, I just don't think the respawn point is the singularly most important need for a stage selection. Realistically we will get more options, I don't think this is near the top of the list. I can "wrap my head around" quite a lot, I just disagree with you about the respawn point. Maybe you cannot comprehend this point?

Mullet boy avatar- if you think that is an appropriate way to speak to another human being, which seems to be the case based on every post I've seen of yours, then I suggest an etiquette class. Your profile says youre 26, not 13.

You can feel however you want. I've seen your replies. I disagree. As do you with me. No need to continue responding to vomit the same redundancies.
 
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Naov

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#95
First of all it's awesome that we have this, even when limited we can do some awesome stages.

For me, if it were to be updated, it should fix first some basic things:
  1. Copy / paste
  2. Eraser shape (in other words, being able to substract terrain from a shape)
  3. Switch the direction of a rail
  4. Unglue platforms that are together, sometimes i want to have movable objects that are together but if I place them together they glue to each other
  5. Be able to change background (and possibly size) after you started the level
  6. Be able to fast-forward when pressing "play"

Improvements:
  1. Setup timer for spawns or triggers, so that you can actually build a planned contraption instead of fighting with the physics.
  2. Better materials / textures / shapes. Freedrawing is nice but levels look like a kid using MS Paint instead of a real level. Brawl had better shapes as the cubes and platforms.
 
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Luigifan18

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#96
Apparently a tiny platform that barely fits 2 characters is suitable for 8-Player Smash, but a labrynthine complex rivaling Temple in scale is not. Excuse me, but what kind of backwards logic is that?!
 

SvartWolf

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#97
its 2 characters is suitable for 8-Player Smash, but a labrynthine complex rivaling Temple in scale is not. Excuse me, but what kind of backwards logic is that?!
I'm guessing is to keep the 60 fps. while smash ultimate has done wonders in optimization, is still a switch. and i'm pretty sure that stage builded stages cant get the ammount of optimization the normal stages get. thats why its tied to the stage weight i guess?
 

Xelrog

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#98
I'm guessing is to keep the 60 fps. while smash ultimate has done wonders in optimization, is still a switch. and i'm pretty sure that stage builded stages cant get the ammount of optimization the normal stages get. thats why its tied to the stage weight i guess?
On this note, I've noticed custom stages playing significantly laggier on average in online arenas. My experience, at least.
 
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#99
Well I've been away for awhile but it seems my dreams came true! I really like the new stage builder and its by far the best one yet. I've made so many stages that actually look like the way I want them and its amazing. One thing I was surprised by is that they don't allow stage morph on custom stages. To be honest I didn't think about this until it was announced but I feel like this is a real miss opportunity for many stage designs.
 
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First person: no, as I stated prior, I just don't think the respawn point is the singularly most important need for a stage selection. Realistically we will get more options, I don't think this is near the top of the list. I can "wrap my head around" quite a lot, I just disagree with you about the respawn point. Maybe you cannot comprehend this point?
untitled.png

Mullet boy avatar- if you think that is an appropriate way to speak to another human being, which seems to be the case based on every post I've seen of yours, then I suggest an etiquette class. Your profile says youre 26, not 13.
mr. "mullet boy avatar" over here is acting perfectly reasonable was said nothing objectionable about you in the post you're quoting. Also, lay off with the ageism, tone copper. Not a good look.
 
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View attachment 212463



mr. "mullet boy avatar" over here is acting perfectly reasonable was said nothing objectionable about you in the post you're quoting. Also, lay off with the ageism, tone copper. Not a good look.
Yeah. If you're quoting a Strawman in the woods, it must be true!
 
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My point was that your comment was opposing a strawman. We're not arguing that it's the most important addition; we're arguing over whether it should be added at all.
The point made by other people (and referenced by you) was that the MOST IMPORTANT thing to add was a respawn point.
My point was that I disagree, it is not singularly the most important thing, even if important.

In no way was I opposing an argument not presented. It was following the thread.
 
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lucasla

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The point made by other people (and referenced by you) was that the MOST IMPORTANT thing to add was a respawn point.
My point was that I disagree, it is not singularly the most important thing, even if important.

In no way was I opposing an argument not presented. It was following the thread.
Well, obviously things have priorities. Of course that the most important thing is well, the game at first must work. Secondly, must create stages, and then, they need to add other features. The other features are the ones that will add quality for the thing. If you give power to people to create stages with any kind of geometry, you need to allow the creators to select where the player needs to respawn. The way it is today, people are doing workarounds to fix a problem that exists, that the players are first needing to die or reach some place of the stages just to start to play on it as they were intended. Of course it's not the most important feature, but its a required feature anyway.

Look what the guy on this custom stage needs to do just to reach the start of the stage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWuefPQC2KM
 
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Naov

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It would be great if textures had some random content such as in Worms WMD, they do a great job creating a "realistic" landscape to fill up random forms.

Possibly this would be only on dreams XD.



 
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It would be great if textures had some random content such as in Worms WMD, they do a great job creating a "realistic" landscape to fill up random forms.

Possibly this would be only on dreams XD.



Can you give a bit more context as to how the fill-in-the-texture works? That is quite impressive.
 

Naov

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Its a random generated form based on some algorithms to create first something as:




But the texture at the end I imagine that it takes the biggest chunks to place custom sprites, and then fill the rest with some filler content. It's really impressive they progressed very much since the first worms games.
 

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I mean that's cool and all but kind of pointless when you consider that Armageddon let you play on any PNG image, and every Worms game thereafter lacking this feature is thus a waste of time and money.
 

Yuya-Noboru

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The problem, pupNapoleon pupNapoleon , is that limit other people based on a simple intuition that adding more basics functionality might discourage people that aren't confident in technology is absurd. It doesn't help anyone, it's just the kind of mindset that drag humanity down. Instead of encouraging mediocrity and complacency in blandness, it would be better for anyone to be able to do better things with stage builder. Seeing great stages will create interest and even people that might have hard time with stage builder (though I doubt it since it's far from being complex) will try to improve to create great stages too.

Also, it looks like I didn't posted an answer to your previous post so I'm just gonna let you know that, as a non-native English, I cannot tell if my words could be interpreted in a offensive/disrespectful way (though there will always be people to feel offended about anything). So, sorry if I might hurt your feelings but I wasn't angry or anything just so you know. By the way, I do not have a screenshot to show you 'cause my SD card is in my WiiU but sometimes you can have 4 characters to spawn at the same place (they touch each others).

This stage builder is fine... but it could be better.
-why can’t we just flat out have a platform tool?
-no ability to choose where you spawn absolutely annoying when trying to make any sort of cave.
-there should be way more colorful options for platforms and stuff
-what’s with there being such a small amount of objects to work with?
-they should’ve had every stage background, not just a couple.
-ability to have multiple songs registered to a level
That’s all I think needs to be fixed for now.
Totally agree with you and, as mentioned above, the (re)spawn should fix issue of "normal" stage as well. And, as I said in other post, they could use the "playlist feature" for Stage builder so you can select several songs to be played instead of just one.
First of all it's awesome that we have this, even when limited we can do some awesome stages. For me, if it were to be updated, it should fix first some basic things:
  1. Copy / paste
  2. Eraser shape (in other words, being able to substract terrain from a shape)
  3. Switch the direction of a rail
  4. Unglue platforms that are together, sometimes i want to have movable objects that are together but if I place them together they glue to each other
  5. Be able to change background (and possibly size) after you started the level
  6. Be able to fast-forward when pressing "play"
Improvements:
  1. Setup timer for spawns or triggers, so that you can actually build a planned contraption instead of fighting with the physics.
  2. Better materials / textures / shapes. Freedrawing is nice but levels look like a kid using MS Paint instead of a real level. Brawl had better shapes as the cubes and platforms.
Yeah a fast-forward preview would be great when it comes to platform that are moving slowly. Or just to see if the physics you gave to your stage doesn't have any issue for several minutes. Copy/Paste & Eraser have been mentioned a lot, I'd really appreciate if they'd add it in future update. As of now, we cannot switch a direction of a rail that already exist, we need to delete and create another one to do that... Also being able to change some basics characteristics such as background/size is something I want since SSB4 and sadly, it's still missing. I just totally agree with your whole post.
 
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Totally agree with you and, as mentioned above, the (re)spawn should fix issue of "normal" stage as well. And, as I said in other post, they could use the "playlist feature" for Stage builder so you can select several songs to be played instead of just one.
Yeah, I agree with a handful of stuff on here. And I don’t really see why some people think adding any of these things will make it too complex too use for most people, because right now the stage builder is quite easy and lacks the correct pieces to truly make something cool. I don’t really think it’s ok when some people try to act like the stage builder would be too difficult for people when like you said above, people will be encouraged to use it if they see the cool stuff other people have done.
 
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Stage Builder can only do so much on a large game. Remember, it's not just more characters who were added. There's also a lot of music, and I suspect that takes up quite a bit of space. I'm content with how Stage Builder currently is. It's not Little Big Planet or Mario Maker, but future games should provide for more interesting options.
 
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I notice one tweek I hope they make in future updates is starting placements. So I just made 50M from Donkey Kong (aka Pie Factory) and its relatively to scale. Here is an image.



The problem is the starting point puts you right next to the fire pit in the center stage. So P1 and P2 are shoved right into the trap and take a lot of damage right when the match starts. Now they may already have this but I can't find out how to change it.
 
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Aside from the ability to edit where characters spawn at the start of a match, i'd love for them to bring back all the options from Brawl's builder. Especially for the people that actually hate how this current stage builder functions.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Stage Builder can only do so much on a large game.
This is true. I suspect that the weight limit is still intrusive as it is in order to keep load times reasonable. You can't exactly optimize infinite possibilities in a game meant for fixed stages.

I think the most meaningful additions that would still be within reason would be a start point and respawn position editor toggle, and an autotile feature. The former could be placed underneath the layer menu, and the latter would be apart of the draw submenu. The autotile feature would work very similarly to how the draw feature in Super Mario Maker does.
 

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This is true. I suspect that the weight limit is still intrusive as it is in order to keep load times reasonable.
It also comes down to what the Switch itself can handle. I made a stage with lots of small gravity-affected objects that can't really run, even within the object limit and with only two players.
 

Luigifan18

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I notice one tweek I hope they make in future updates is starting placements. So I just made 50M from Donkey Kong (aka Pie Factory) and its relatively to scale. Here is an image.



The problem is the starting point puts you right next to the fire pit in the center stage. So P1 and P2 are shoved right into the trap and take a lot of damage right when the match starts. Now they may already have this but I can't find out how to change it.
There is not currently any way to change where players spawn and it's one of the top complaints people have been voicing.
Ditto with my "Caliburn" stage — players 1 and 2 spawn uncomfortably close to the blade, which I coated with lava because, well, touching the sharp part of a blade bigger than your body should hurt.


Also, my Steeplechase stage has lava blocks orbiting around the center of the stage, forcing players to continuously move about... unfortunately, two hapless players start out right in front of the blocks and immediately get bodied.

 
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