Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[19_]

Honestly I think a stage learning one would be better, where the only legal stages are Wuhu Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Skyloft, and Pokémon Stadium 2 (Maybe Halberd too). Most people seem unfamiliar with these stages and that's why they want them banned, and don't realize how to counter any strategies they might bring. Being forced to play on them over and over would help that.

What, no love for Kongo jungle. :C

 

[Piford]

What, no love for Kongo jungle. :C

Kongo Jungle is a fairly simple stage. I'm more concerned with transforming ones. Halberd was in parenthesis because hazards might make it a good stage for a learning tournament, but most people can dodge hazards.

 

[wildvine47]

Beyond the 14 I push a lot, I think the next best stage is definitely Mario Circuit if you wanted 15.

I'd hesitate to say Mario Circuit 8 is a viable choice considering the easily replicable glitch on it with Kirby/Meta/Zard upthrows. If timed right before the ceiling becomes tangible at certain points of the stage, one or both of the characters can get infinitely stuck up above the stage and bounced back and forth inside the track until the ceiling leaves again. I've seen it done, and it's devastating and would ruin any actual tournament match.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd hesitate to say Mario Circuit 8 is a viable choice considering the easily replicable glitch on it with Kirby/Meta/Zard upthrows. If timed right before the ceiling becomes tangible at certain points of the stage, one or both of the characters can get infinitely stuck up above the stage and bounced back and forth inside the track until the ceiling leaves again. I've seen it done, and it's devastating and would ruin any actual tournament match.

This sounds like a "don't get grabbed at this point in time" or a "ban against those characters."

Mario Circuit 8 is one of my favorite stages because of how well you can use stage knowledge to your advantage while not being disruptive at all. The Shy Guys fly by in specific zones that are easy to combo into, but easy to avoid in neutral. The ceiling/wall "stealing kills" is just a poor excuse for not knowing the stage. And none of the transformations last long.

The "cave of life" during the antigravity section where you're upside down is only temporary. Both players can take advantage of it. And then it's gone. Same with the walk offs. They're there, and then they're gone.

The glitches are an issue, but I don't find them a big enough reason to ban such an interesting stage.

 

[Pazx]

If there were to be a "stage learning" tournament I'd intentionally omit Delfino from the stage list so that we'd be looking at something like this. I'd also consider omitting Wuhu (sadly) because I'm concerned about Skyloft, KJ64 and Siege being banned far more.

Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, Skyloft, Kongo Jungle, Lylat

 

[Piford]

If there were to be a "stage learning" tournament I'd intentionally omit Delfino from the stage list so that we'd be looking at something like this. I'd also consider omitting Wuhu (sadly) because I'm concerned about Skyloft, KJ64 and Siege being banned far more.

Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, Skyloft, Kongo Jungle, Lylat

There would be no point in putting Lylat. No TO is going to take the people asking for Lylat's ban seriously as its scrubs who can't sweetspot the ledge, and it's a very small amount of people compared to the large amount that actually know why the stage should be legal. Also there's no reason why we would have to limit the list to 5 stages, I only listed 5 in my post because the point is to force people to play on the complex stages they are afraid of, so the 5 transforming stages. Kongo Jungle and Lyalt Cruise are relatively static, and are much less likely to be banned because of that. Forcing people to play on them isn't going to really change peoples opinions, scrubs still aren't going to be able to sweet spot the ledge, and I don't really know why people think Kongo Jungle should be banned outside "it was banned in melee."

 

[webbedspace]

I'd also consider omitting Wuhu (sadly) because I'm concerned about Skyloft, KJ64 and Siege being banned far more.

I don't get it. Wuhu is already banned pretty much universally by now. Castle Siege has been seeing constant play up to this day.

 

[LiteralGrill]

When people ask what stage knowledge is tell them to click this link.

This shows a mastery of Kongo Jungle in just the most amazing way. This is what people can do if they take time to study a stage, this is how strong they can be. Everybody not knowing the stages like this hurts our meta SO much. Man the kind of hype we could see...

 

[thehard]

When people ask what stage knowledge is tell them to click this link.

This shows a mastery of Kongo Jungle in just the most amazing way. This is what people can do if they take time to study a stage, this is how strong they can be. Everybody not knowing the stages like this hurts our meta SO much. Man the kind of hype we could see...

That was so good! People should spend less time complaining about Lylat and more time learning how to screw your opponent over with it...

 

[LiteralGrill]

Ω Palutena's Temple is NOT An Acceptable Replacement For Final Destination.

Whew! I did a LOT of work studying Omega Stages today and learned a LOT about them as well. Along with that I scientifically did some testing to show that the rules exchanging Final Destination with any other Omega changes the game in a very significant way. Hopefully you all enjoy the read!

 

[Pazx]

Why should FD be the golden standard Capps? Arbitrarily deciding that FD should be a starter is as bad as arbitrarily deciding that Palutena's should be the "starter" omega.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Why should FD be the golden standard Capps? Arbitrarily deciding that FD should be a starter is as bad as arbitrarily deciding that Palutena's should be the "starter" omega.

I'm not saying Palutena's can't be a starter, the reasoning as to WHY it was decided over Final Destination doesn't make sense, one cannot replace the other as they just aren't the same. It's bad to force someone to an omega when the original is right there and available.
I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for us to discuss Omegas and how to handle them in here actually. We talk so much about other stages being legal we don't look at these really. How does everyone in here think they should be handled?

 

[Pazx]

I wouldn't miss FD if it was outright banned. It's obnoxious on HD TVs, it's unplayable on CRTs and it's unplayable for people with colour vision deficiency. Pick any Omega, make it the starter stage, they're all better than FD. FD being the "original" means nothing.

I think the general consensus is that Omega stages are treated at a single entity (along with FD) during striking and banning and the counterpicking player may select any Omega stage. I'm not sure there's much more to discuss, stuff with flat omegas (duck hunt etc) and Lylat should fall under counterpick advantage and reward stage knowledge.

I do, however, have this suggestion: Striking/banning a stage should also ban the Omega version of that stage and that stage only. Eg, you ban Lylat Cruise, your opponent takes you to an Omega of his choice, he can choose from any omega stage except for Lylat. This would likely only affect Lylat (and potentially Duck Hunt) and I see no downsides to it. This stops ledge jank in the case of Lylat and 2D jank in the case of Duck Hunt if those are the reasons you choose to ban the stage.

 

[BBC7]

I wouldn't miss FD if it was outright banned. It's obnoxious on HD TVs, it's unplayable on CRTs and it's unplayable for people with colour vision deficiency. Pick any Omega, make it the starter stage, they're all better than FD. FD being the "original" means nothing.

I think the general consensus is that Omega stages are treated at a single entity (along with FD) during striking and banning and the counterpicking player may select any Omega stage. I'm not sure there's much more to discuss, stuff with flat omegas (duck hunt etc) and Lylat should fall under counterpick advantage and reward stage knowledge.

I do, however, have this suggestion: Striking/banning a stage should also ban the Omega version of that stage and that stage only. Eg, you ban Lylat Cruise, your opponent takes you to an Omega of his choice, he can choose from any omega stage except for Lylat. This would likely only affect Lylat (and potentially Duck Hunt) and I see no downsides to it. This stops ledge jank in the case of Lylat and 2D jank in the case of Duck Hunt if those are the reasons you choose to ban the stage.

In the case of banning Duck Hunt, Omega Flat Zone and Omega PAC-Land should also be banned. Otherwise, no one is really safe from 2-D jank. Unless you just make it so that Omega forms of illegal stages are illegal which wouldn't make much sense to me.

 

[Funen1]

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for us to discuss Omegas and how to handle them in here actually. We talk so much about other stages being legal we don't look at these really. How does everyone in here think they should be handled?

The biggest question I would have is this: for Game 1, if FD is chosen after striking out the rest of the stages, who gets to decide which, if any, Omega stage is played instead? Whoever struck last already got to select FD. Should he/she also get the opportunity to pick an Omega stage that would give him/her another leg up on the opponent? However, if we let the person who did not strike last get to select a particular Omega, would that stage swing the balance enough so as to be described as "punishing" the other person for picking FD? Others like SmashCapps know better than me exactly how much the different properties of the different Omega stages change the gameplay compared to that on FD. If it is that significant, then I would advocate having Omega stages not be available for Game 1, unless both players agree to a specific stage (one use of a general "gentleman's clause").

My rule for the remaining games in the set would be simpler. Because only one person (the loser of the previous match) has any involvement with selecting a stage for Games 2 and onward (by contrast, both are involved for selecting Game 1's stage), that person should have the freedom to select which Omega stage, if any, they play on if that person decides to counterpick FD. Keep in mind my philosophy also includes counting FD and Omega stages as one entity during striking/banning, with FD as the "main" one - if FD is stricken/banned, then the Omegas are stricken/banned as well.

I do, however, have this suggestion: Striking/banning a stage should also ban the Omega version of that stage and that stage only. Eg, you ban Lylat Cruise, your opponent takes you to an Omega of his choice, he can choose from any omega stage except for Lylat. This would likely only affect Lylat (and potentially Duck Hunt) and I see no downsides to it. This stops ledge jank in the case of Lylat and 2D jank in the case of Duck Hunt if those are the reasons you choose to ban the stage.

The main problem that I see with this is that there are many more Omega stages available than regular stages that will ever see the light of day in tournaments. Say you're playing against Ness (as someone other than Ness, mind you ), and you want to ban Omega Onett so your opponent can't use the walls to help recover. However, regular Onett will never be used in a regular tourney ruleset anyway. Using one of your stage bans on an already banned stage just so you can prevent the opponent from using its Omega form doesn't seem like the smartest use for them.

 

[BBC7]

The main problem that I see with this is that there are many more Omega stages available than regular stages that will ever see the light of day in tournaments. Say you're playing against Ness (as someone other than Ness, mind you ), and you want to ban Omega Onett so your opponent can't use the walls to help recover. However, regular Onett will never be used in a regular tourney ruleset anyway. Using one of your stage bans on an already banned stage just so you can prevent the opponent from using its Omega form doesn't seem like the smartest use for them.

If it's not a smart use, I guess you just don't take it. I doubt that anyone will go out of their way to ban Omega Onett because they fear the walls will assist Ness too much in terms of recovery. I'd ban something like Delfino against Ness before I ban Omega Onett. (I'm just assuming Delfino is a good stage for Ness, temporary walk-offs and sharkable platforms.)

 

[Pazx]

The biggest question I would have is this: for Game 1, if FD is chosen after striking out the rest of the stages, who gets to decide which, if any, Omega stage is played instead? Whoever struck last already got to select FD. Should he/she also get the opportunity to pick an Omega stage that would give him/her another leg up on the opponent? However, if we let the person who did not strike last get to select a particular Omega, would that stage swing the balance enough so as to be described as "punishing" the other person for picking FD? Others like SmashCapps know better than me exactly how much the different properties of the different Omega stages change the gameplay compared to that on FD. If it is that significant, then I would advocate having Omega stages not be available for Game 1, unless both players agree to a specific stage (one use of a general "gentleman's clause").

My rule for the remaining games in the set would be simpler. Because only one person (the loser of the previous match) has any involvement with selecting a stage for Games 2 and onward (by contrast, both are involved for selecting Game 1's stage), that person should have the freedom to select which Omega stage, if any, they play on if that person decides to counterpick FD. Keep in mind my philosophy also includes counting FD and Omega stages as one entity during striking/banning, with FD as the "main" one - if FD is stricken/banned, then the Omegas are stricken/banned as well.



The main problem that I see with this is that there are many more Omega stages available than regular stages that will ever see the light of day in tournaments. Say you're playing against Ness (as someone other than Ness, mind you ), and you want to ban Omega Onett so your opponent can't use the walls to help recover. However, regular Onett will never be used in a regular tourney ruleset anyway. Using one of your stage bans on an already banned stage just so you can prevent the opponent from using its Omega form doesn't seem like the smartest use for them.

I believe we should have one designated Omega as a starter stage and if that is selected on game one it is played on no questions.

I don't really see that as a problem for 3 main reasons.
1. You will have reasons for banning the regular version of a stage, we eliminate the Omega version of said stage as somewhat of an afterthought. You do not ban the stage because of what the Omega stage is like, you ban the stage because of the regular version of it. If you ban Lylat it's likely for the tilting and the ledges, simultaneously banning the Omega offers the player who banned Lylat an advantage.
2. If you don't want to go to a walled Omega (eg. Onett), you can ban FD and still have a ban left over.
3. You can't ban a non-legal stage. My suggestion is that banning a stage ALSO bans the Omega counterpart, you're not looking to ban a single Omega stage because you can still get taken to the 40 something other ones.

 

[webbedspace]

In my opinion Ω Onett should be the starter, on the basis that wall-jumpers never really get a chance to actually wall-jump in competitive games, and allowing them this option will buff them without hindering the non-wall-jumpers much at all. But, that's just me.

 

[LiteralGrill]

If we as the community were to pick the "Ultimate Omega" I would personally want to pick the one that represents all omegas as equally as possible, has a little bit of each of them.

Great Cave Offensive is not only the most popular Omega in a poll I ran a while back, it has TWO kinds of friction and the shape is like a combination of floating and wall in a strange way. It may not be a terrible candidate. (Plus while not really important good music and looks pretty too)

 

[webbedspace]

If we're judging by music then the unmatched winner is Ω Wrecking Crew with Mach Rider set to 80% (the other 20% is Lip's Theme).

 

[Piford]

If we as the community were to pick the "Ultimate Omega" I would personally want to pick the one that represents all omegas as equally as possible, has a little bit of each of them.

Great Cave Offensive is not only the most popular Omega in a poll I ran a while back, it has TWO kinds of friction and the shape is like a combination of floating and wall in a strange way. It may not be a terrible candidate. (Plus while not really important good music and looks pretty too)

While I don't think Grass is a bannable thing, I think having the 2 varying frictions is annoying. I think a stage with consistent friction would be better, whether it be grass or not grass. Also, I'd pick an Omega that lags less, so the ones offered in 8-player Smash. I think Omega Gaur Plains would be the best, since it has the pillar to stop potential scrooging. If you wanted a wall omega, the Omega Onett seems best based off music and visuals.

 

[BBC7]

While I don't think Grass is a bannable thing, I think having the 2 varying frictions is annoying. I think a stage with consistent friction would be better, whether it be grass or not grass. Also, I'd pick an Omega that lags less, so the ones offered in 8-player Smash. I think Omega Gaur Plains would be the best, since it has the pillar to stop potential scrooging. If you wanted a wall omega, the Omega Onett seems best based off music and visuals.

My favorite Walled Omega is Wily Castle but each to their own, I guess. Maybe that's just my Mega Man bias but I think everyone looks good on Omega Wily.

 

[Piford]

My favorite Walled Omega is Wily Castle but each to their own, I guess. Maybe that's just my Mega Man bias but I think everyone looks good on Omega Wily.

Omega Wily and Omega Windy Hill are also really good. I omitted Omega Wily because I don't think its available to play in 8-player Smash so it likely causes more lag (although this is only really relevant to online tournaments.).

 

[Smash4United]

In my opinion Ω Onett should be the starter, on the basis that wall-jumpers never really get a chance to actually wall-jump in competitive games, and allowing them this option will buff them without hindering the non-wall-jumpers much at all. But, that's just me.

I had a discussion about wall-jumpers a while back in regards to Kalos League Omega. He said Kalos league is unfair because Wall jumpers can take advantage of it whilst those without cant. In that regard I took Palutena's Temple Omega as a counter argument. There are literally a bunch of characters who can end up underneath the bottom of either side and make it back underneath to the other side. These are characters with good up-b's. So for example you can hang on the right ledge, drop down, jump, up-b and make it to the other side. Some characters can't. Are we going to discuss how unfair it is for characters that can't? I think if you look at it as a whole, the wall jump is pretty balanced. Captain Falcon can't make it from one side to the other underneath Palutena's Omega, but he can wall jump on Kalos which makes up for it (if you choose stages wisely). What do you guys think?

 

[Piford]

I had a discussion about wall-jumpers a while back in regards to Kalos League Omega. He said Kalos league is unfair because Wall jumpers can take advantage of it whilst those without cant. In that regard I took Palutena's Temple Omega as a counter argument. There are literally a bunch of characters who can end up underneath the bottom of either side and make it back underneath to the other side. These are characters with good up-b's. So for example you can hang on the right ledge, drop down, jump, up-b and make it to the other side. Some characters can't. Are we going to discuss how unfair it is for characters that can't? I think if you look at it as a whole, the wall jump is pretty balanced. Captain Falcon can't make it from one side to the other underneath Palutena's Omega, but he can wall jump on Kalos which makes up for it (if you choose stages wisely). What do you guys think?

You can't wall jump on Omega Kalos, despite it having walls.

Also interesting information, there's a difference between Final Destination and Omega Final Destination. FD has a bottom blastzone thats 32ft away from the ledge, while OFD has one that's 29ft.

Edit: After some personal testing, this information turned out to be incorrect.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Re: FD issues, while I admit I can't speak for colorblind people having issues since I'm not colorblind, I otherwise think that the background being too distracting sounds like a pretty bad john. I basically never notice it until it does the white flash thing, and that lasts all of what, two seconds?

In other news, I did a thread on Jungle Hijinxs, the name of which I still have trouble typing out properly.

 

[Pazx]

Dismissing complaints about FD's background as a john may be accurate but it's undeniable that the background makes the quality of the experience worse at a competitive level. You can shout "no johns" all you want but we'll all be having a far more enjoyable and less frustrating time on Omega stages and the quality of gameplay should reflect that.

 

[VKatana]

Frankly, FD shouldn't be banned. That white flash lasts like 1.5 seconds.
But aside from that, I've been formulating a list of the different varieties of Omega forms (ie which ones have walls that extend all the way down, which ones are platforms with space under, things like that) as I think it'd help with omega counterpicks (ie a Little Mac picking Omega Wily Castle so he can walljump). Is anyone interested in this list or think its necessary?

 

[Pazx]

Frankly, FD shouldn't be banned. That white flash lasts like 1.5 seconds.
But aside from that, I've been formulating a list of the different varieties of Omega forms (ie which ones have walls that extend all the way down, which ones are platforms with space under, things like that) as I think it'd help with omega counterpicks (ie a Little Mac picking Omega Wily Castle so he can walljump). Is anyone interested in this list or think its necessary?

Here you go: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

 

[VKatana]

Here you go: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

Ayy, that saves me an hour. Thanks!

 

[webbedspace]

You can't wall jump on Omega Kalos, despite it having walls..

The rule is: curved walls = no jump. Same as Mario Galaxy. And Pac-Land is arguably too rough to get enough traction to perform a jump.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The rule is: curved walls = no jump. Same as Mario Galaxy. And Pac-Land is arguably too rough to get enough traction to perform a jump.

Mario Galaxy (can't wall jump) and Great Cave Offense (can wall jump) have the exact same underside shape btw.

 

[webbedspace]

Mario Galaxy (can't wall jump) and Great Cave Offense (can wall jump) have the exact same underside shape btw.

No, Ω Great Cave Offensive has the same underside shape as Ω 75m.

EDIT: OK, maybe it doesn't.

 

[VKatana]

Omega GCO's underbelly shape reminds me a bit of fountain of dreams.

 

[Lavani]

I think Omega Gaur Plains would be the best, since it has the pillar to stop potential scrooging.

Unless Wii U is different, the pillar is in the background and doesn't actually prevent anyone from crossing under the stage.

 

[Piford]

Unless Wii U is different, the pillar is in the background and doesn't actually prevent anyone from crossing under the stage.

It actually is different in the Wii U version! The pillar is a small non-jumpable wall instead of in the background. The slope also isn't as steep as in the 3DS version.

 

[BBC7]

It actually is different in the Wii U version! The pillar is a small non-jumpable wall instead of in the background. The slope also isn't as steep as in the 3DS version.

Speaking of differences between 3DS and Wii U, Luigi can no longer get his head stuck in between the walls of Wily Castle on Wii U.

 

[wildvine47]

Omega Wily and Omega Windy Hill are also really good. I omitted Omega Wily because I don't think its available to play in 8-player Smash so it likely causes more lag (although this is only really relevant to online tournaments.).

Omega Wily is actually available in 8-Player Smash. All the Omegas available in 8 player are listed with a [8Ω] here: http://smashbros-miiverse.com/stages/wiiu

 

[webbedspace]

http://smashboards.com/threads/jungle-hijinxs-stage-research.388280/#post-18455694 - TOs plz unban Hijinxs

 

[LEGOfan12]

I'd hesitate to say Mario Circuit 8 is a viable choice considering the easily replicable glitch on it with Kirby/Meta/Zard upthrows. If timed right before the ceiling becomes tangible at certain points of the stage, one or both of the characters can get infinitely stuck up above the stage and bounced back and forth inside the track until the ceiling leaves again. I've seen it done, and it's devastating and would ruin any actual tournament match.

Agreed.